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Official Roster Discussion

Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
1,538
Brawl's problems = Melee's problems.

Difference?

Melee's were worse.

No new DK, Mother, F-Zero, or Kirby reps.

Only new Star Fox rep = clone.

Also, Dixie was in the beta, made it further than K. Rool.
 

LavisFiend

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,713
Location
Alexandria, Louisiana
*Samurai Panda asked me to post this here instead of a separate thread, so that is what I shall do.


Let me first state that I am not making this thread in an attempt to tell you to "STOP FIGHTING GUYS" or anything like that. This thread is not out to tell you what to do, and I intend on not doing so. I just have a simple message I want to address and put out on the table that many people seem to forget. If you are going to come in here and try to start crap, then you will only be showing your ignorance. This is not a hate meeting for EITHER side, just a simple message. Have some respect and treat it as just that.

The popular consensus seems to be for hating Sakurai and the development crew for whatever reason. Let the hate flow. It is natural to pour your anger into an outlet of whatever kind, whether it be inanimate or animate, so if you need to vent by blaming it on something, go ahead and do just that. Fuming with anger and keeping it bottled in isn't healthy anyways.

Bear in mind however, that to make the claim that Sakurai ignored his fans is only a result of your blind anger. It is just not true. He did not ignore you, and he most certainly would never turn his back on his fans. If he turned his back on his fans, then there would be no Brawl. We would have Melee Online. Sakurai even brought this a step further and instead of leaving his fans in the dark, he wanted to keep them up to date on very recent and new info to help satiate our hunger. He didn't have to, but he did, and that shows a dedication that seems to be lacking in game developer nowadays.

There are quite a few people who blame Sakurai that because of his Dojo, their hype was killed. It is not his fault that you can't exercise personal restraint. He offered the Dojo as an optional thing, you, as an individual with the curiosity of a cat decided to waltz in and spoil yourself. Temptation is not grounds for making the excuse of forced action. You did it yourself. You have no one to blame but yourself for that one. Sakurai is not a mind wizard although he really does look like he could be one.

The biggest issue is of course, the roster. Many people were disappointed that their favorite character will not exchange in fisticuffs with their most hated mascot. This is natural and quite common to the point where I can understand the disdain a person would have regarding such news. However, you can't win over everybody, so you have to make due and do what you can to please as many people as possible. You can't win everyone over as there will always be that one person who sees hard effort as an excuse for laziness for not working on the character they wanted in the game.

He did a swell job. He worked with what he had and pumped out a very healthy amount of new talent comingled with old. We got a lot of new characters, and all the veterans from the first two games came back. We have a story mode, a stage builder, online, collectibles out of the wazoo, over 200+ songs, and the list continues to grow. He wanted to make this game last far beyond simple Vs. mode, and wanted to make sure that every inch of the game was able to pull fun from. He did exceptionally well in that aspect.

You can almost say, that amidst the designing of all these intricate modes and balancing our new batch of heroes and villains, that Sakurai lost track of time, and realized that he was going to come up a bit shorthanded on character representation. So what did that wascawwy wabbit do? What else but supply us those characters through the means of preserved strength and valor. Our AT's capture the true essence of the core character, their presence unweathered as they release their OWN "final smash" to show that they were lost but not forgotten. They leave their impact through the frantic flurries, slashing, gunfire and other means of leaving their mark. Their impact is strong and sturdy, and will not be so easily ignored.

Our bosses too preserve the core essence of the character. Many people wonder why Ridley is not playable, when the answer is not so much that Sakurai didn't see him fit enough to be controlled by the hands of salivating fans everywhere, but rather saw Ridley as something more grandeur, a playable slot not enough to warrant the essence that is Ridley. Consider boss characters in Brawl as characters that are too good to be handled by a mortal hand. These cats don't play around. Their savage nature and relentless background shatter the realm of AT and they evolve into an entity that can not be pushed aside like a mere AT. Sakurai knew of Ridley's background, and his legions of fans and why they liked him, which is why he figured it would be only for the best that he retained those qualities through the means of making him one fierce boss to fight.

Sakurai has always cared about his fans you see. So much so that we got all this new stuff; all this new material that fans really did want to see. It is truly amazing how despite all this work, all the sweat and tears put into making this game, that they still managed to evolve the roster they way they did. People complain about the clones, when in reality they fail to realize just how much work it took to get all this stuff to the high numbers that are now in the endgame. Consider clones not as an insult to the character, but rather an honest effort to further the roster along, doing what they can with what little time they did have left. So much work goes into one character, but the later ones take the most work. My theory is that, for Toon Link, Wolf, Falco, Ganon, Lucas, that they were the unfortunate ones at the back of the line. I would probably put Toon Link at the far back, seeing as how he is the one who is seemingly the worst of the clones.

Time is not infinitive, and with already three delays, it would have probably shattered Sakurai to have to push it back again. What people here fail to realize is that with every delay, the creator who was ever so passionate in making this title has to watch his fans suffer due to technicalities. It must be like knifes to the gut to watch as his fans are continued to be let down and teased with the one gift Sakurai wants to get off his hands and give to you. It is with this, I believe the 3 landmasters came about, as well as the other cloned FS's. Quick patchwork to guarantee that the game we have all been waiting for years will finally be spinning in our wiis, delivering to us a visual splendor we have dreamed about since the final days of Melee.

In conclusion. Sakurai has always cared about us, the fans. He did what could be done with the time that he had, and he made every last minute count. It is because of this I am grateful to have Sakurai create our game, because with such a passion of pleasing the fans, only one thing is certain:

He knows how to make a darn good game.

That is all. Fiend out.
 

MajinNecro69

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
657
I REALLY think Sakurai screwed up here. The representation thing has been fired out the **** window this time around. I don't see why Ness had to be back, in exchange for Isaac, Ridley or Takamaru. I don't see why Krystal got the axe for Falco...
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
Brilliant post, Lavisfiend. Times like this are when I wish the rep system was back.
 
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
1,538
I'm sure more fans would be pleased if Ness was dropped than if Krystal, Ridley, Isaac, or Takamaru got in.

Sakurai didn't screw up. If Brawl is a screw-up roster-wise, Melee was a failure of epic proportions.
 

Mikau et al

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
242
Location
shhh...it's a secret


In conclusion. Sakurai has always cared about us, the fans. He did what could be done with the time that he had, and he made every last minute count. It is because of this I am grateful to have Sakurai create our game, because with such a passion of pleasing the fans, only one thing is certain:

He knows how to make a darn good game.

That is all. Fiend out.
I've already seen this post. Don't think that because I'm a n00b that I don't read these threads and actually try to inform myself about what's going on.
I too hate all of these threads that are bytching about one character, but the fact that there are so many, generally about the same few characters, indicates that there was obviously something the fans wanted that Sakurai just didn't get. He might have cared about "us," the collective fans, but his knowledge only goes as far as "them," the Japanese fans. Don't try to pretend it's not true, because the evidence points towards that.
Personally, I blame stickers. Sakurai "thought of everything," but that everything took away from what could have been a kick@$$ roster. This is just mediocre.
 

RedrappeR

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
294
But you're not understanding. Honestly, you guys... *sigh*

I posted a HUGE ****ing thread about "lets stop this bickering bull****" and now we're BACK to this. We're literally repeating THE SAME POINTS OVER AND ****ING OVER.

*Sigh*

First off, people GET the point. People GET that there COULD have been BIGGER characters in... but here's what you're not getting. He DID listen to fans. You're ignoring a LARGE number of the characters included. Yeah, even Wolf was on the ****ing poll. Even Toon link. Dedede.

He skipped a lot, we Understand. But please, you have much better arguments and powerful points than "He didn't listen to us." Now you're just scapegoating.

You're ****ing up smash boards. Honestly. People need to stop this bickering bull****. Regardless of what side you're on. I posted ONE topic and about 5 pages later, people started using the post to springboard it into something it wasn't meant to be. I said stop fighting, they took it as a message to go "YEAH! YOU SEE! YOU WHINERS SUCK!" Which was ******** and untrue.


Come on people. This is getting out of hand. You made your points, you've gotten what you need... Cut--it--the--****--out.
 

Mikau et al

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 18, 2008
Messages
242
Location
shhh...it's a secret
I'm sure more fans would be pleased if Ness was dropped than if Krystal, Ridley, Isaac, or Takamaru got in.

Sakurai didn't screw up. If Brawl is a screw-up roster-wise, Melee was a failure of epic proportions.
Melee's roster was a failure. Just not as epic as this. It's been six years; that's long enough for people to convince themselves that melee's roster wasn't as bad as it really was.
 

Fandangox

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
1,667
Location
Oh look I changed this
I'm unhappy with the franchise representation. I don't see anyone analyzing that, so I'll elaborate. If you really look at it, pretty much the only series that didn't get screwed over was Kirby (and arguably DK). I’m really sorry if this is very long, but I feel someone needed to actually perform an objective analysis.

I'm sure a lot of people were at least subconsciously surprised that Kirby got an extra two reps upon the revelation of D3. No one wanted MK, but we all love Sakurai for adding him. Granted, Kirby had deserved to get one more in melee, so we can consider that since Kirby got one more rep than it (should have) had in melee, then surely some of the other popular franchises would get at least that much.

Pokemon was the other series that was an apparent indication of proportional representation. We knew that pika and jiggs were returning because they had no reason not to, and Mewtwo had a perfectly good moveset and excellent popularity to make up for the fact that he sucked. Everyone hated pichu, especially since it was one of the sucky clones, and there was no justification for it to return. Afterward, PT was revealed, and Lucario was almost a given due to his massive fan base (I don't get why, but I'd rather have him than other 4th gen reps). If Kirby got two new reps, then so could pokemon (which was retrospectively a correct assumption). So, pokemon's situation was that out of its four melee reps, it would most likely lose the crappy clone and gain two new, original characters (just like Kirby did), for a total rep # increase of one. It still seems very fair, despite reality. In the end Mewtwo was booted and that is probably the biggest injustice to the melee roster and our logical assumptions about brawl's.

Seeing as there were two other franchises with comparable popularity and rep count in Melee (Mario and Zelda), it would make perfect sense to do the same for them. Mario had five reps (justifiably so, as Mario is Nintendo's primary mascot). Everyone knew Dr. Mario should be out for multiple reasons, and that would be consistent with pokemon. Mario, if any series, deserved two new reps as well: most likely Toad and Bowser Jr. I realize Toad would have needed a moveset from scratch, as well as Peach requiring a new B move, but he she it is the character most representative of the mario series who hasn't been a PC. BJ (lol) is the second, given his increasing importance in Sunshine and Galaxy. I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible in these character choices; personally, Toad would have been one of my punching bags, but he/she/it deserves it way more than ROB. And look what we got here. Not a single new Mario rep. That is a crime and you all know it is, even those who are happy with the roster.

Since the Zelda series also had three characters and a clone, it should have also lost the clone and gained two new characters. Seeing as Sheik was back despite logical discrepencies, which was clearly an OoT exclusive, it would make sense to add reps from other great Zelda games. The only thing I liked about MM was Fierce Diety Link, but as you will soon see I think that Masks Link would not only undermine PT's uniqueness, but also be just another Link. But MM is very popular, and Skull Kid/Majora's Mask was an interesting boss with great potential for a unique moveset. TP, being the most recent game (as well as the most critically acclaimed since OoT), deserved someone as well, especially considering Midna's fanbase. Again, no wolf link should have been necessary--if Sakurai really wanted it in he would have added it as a Link transformation--because we don't need another link. I originally didn't want Midna in, because as much as I like her, she's only been in one game. But if a TP sequel were coming out (which there really should be), she would be a very logical choice. The only other characters I can think of that might have had a chance were Tingle (I hate the fact that Japan loves him, but that will never change—and he’s in a lot of games) and maybe Din/Nayru/(Farore) (they’ve been in a lot of games as well, although no one knows who the hell they are or would like them to be playable over more interesting characters). So, the best reps with decent popularity, relevance, and UNIQUENESS would have been Skull Kid and Midna. I'm partial to the Zelda series, but I really despise Toon Link. I know I just said I would be unbaised, but I think he is waaaay to overrated and have to go on a slight digression to explain to you people how stupid you are about this. Young Link should have never been in Melee, and Toon Link is basically Young Link, or at least a reminder of that atrocity. And let's face it people, the only reason you like WW is because you were tired of waiting for the next OoT. You hated what they did to Link just as much as I did/do/will do, but forced yourself to like it because that was the best it was going to get (seems a lot like what is going on right now with brawl—if DC even has a long shot of happening, I don’t know why you people aren’t willing to create a large enough mob to actually try and make it happen). I actually ended up buying WW and upon playing thought it was okay. Until I discovered that the sailing/wind direction thing the least efficient method of transportation in existence, the Gorons and Zoras and Gerudos were replaced by stick-things (I liked the Rito, though, and Dragon Roost Island music), and when you need to collect the eight pieces of the triforce, one of them requires that you do a stupid cabana side quest and solve inane tile puzzles ad nauseum. Something like that should have been reserved for special items, not as a mandatory trial of pain. Tingle sucks, as well. The only other thing I enjoyed about the game was how awesomely the smoke was animated. Hell, the smoke should have been a character over Toon Link.

And as a response to the people who argue that Toon Link and Link are different people, I think that's a stupid argument to have him in brawl when there are plenty of better Zelda characters. Yes, supposedly there are multiple links throughout the history of the Zelda world, and Toon Link is not the same person as Link, but that doesn't change the fact that they are both blond-haired, green-garbed, sword-wielding elfoids. I know there are countless websites trying to place the Zelda games chronologically so as to determine exactly what relationship exists between links, but that's a load of bullshiit. Nintendo doesn't care nor think about that--they will create however many different reincarnations of basically the same character just to sell their games. And when you think about it, "The Legend of Zelda" implies that all of these games are just tales told recounting the epic efforts of some ancient, mythological hero who probably never existed the way the tales describe. It doesn't matter whether they are factually consistent with each other, as long as they somehow tell a story of how great the idealogical hero "Link" is. But the point is, they are all basically Link. So to you Toon Link fans, I say thanks a lot for screwing the Zelda representation over and giving us yet another Link. My only consolation is that you only get another clone, and hopefully it will be below sea level tier. Thank you, Sakurai, for showing the fans how stupid they are (as well as not adding wolf link or masks link as a fifth rep).

Now that that's over, let's look at the other, less popular franchises. Donkey Kong deserved at least one new rep. Diddy was the obvious choice. Dixie Kong fans: you're on crack. Every franchise with three reps or more gets a villain--K. Rool was the obvious choice for a third rep. I'd say that DK has about the same importance and popularity as Kirby, so it wasn't that far-fetched to have three characters. People realized, however, that for various reasons this had a very good chance of not happening despite K. Rool's general popularity and the fact that he is a villain. Those of you who say that people are bytching about their favorite character not getting in are fabricating that: do you see anyone complaining about K. Rool not getting in? I would have liked him in, yet I'm not posting a load of crap about how I hate the roster because K. Rool's not in. It's the fact that so many "shoe-ins" (K. Rool being an "almost shoe-in") not making it into brawl that so many people complain. The roster just doesn't make sense from a fan standpoint, as I am slowly proving (I'm really sorry this is so loooooong, but I think this needed to be brought up since no one else has).

Next comes Metroid. Let's face it. Ridley is the only slighted character people knew HAD to be in brawl. Especially after Kirby got two new reps. Samus was a given, and the ZSS thing was a little bonus; few consider her a completely separate character (as with Zelda). Metroid is certainly important enough to get two new reps, more so than Kirby, but the problem is the lack of decent characters. The next most likely person would have been Dark Samus. I don’t mind Dark Samus, and I know that it is a completely different character than Samus, but even if it had a completely different moveset it would feel like a sort of cop-out clone. Seeing the roster now, it still probably would have been a clone. I think it would it would have done best as a color change. But there is no excuse for Ridley not being a PC. Once again, Metroid only has one selectable PC in the roster when there was no reason it shouldn’t have gotten two. It is very safe to assume that it would never have gotten three this time around (for those that consider ZSS a separate character, then Ridley would have made it three) as while it doesn’t possess the characters to fill that, another series could have taken that slot.

Yes, I’m talking about Star Fox. By rights, it’s huge list of like five games makes it only deserving of maybe two reps. Fox is one. Falco would always be the other. The problem is that it has disproportional popularity. I don’t know why, but it’s useless to fight it. So even though SF only deserves two reps, Sakurai added Wolf. I don’t hate wolf, but with the Falco/Fox clone issue and the fact that Wolf looks way too much like Fox, cloning was going to happen. Hence the landmasters and similar movesets. The sad thing is Wolf was always going to get in over Krystal because he is more important to the series and is a much-needed villain. But the landmasters are inexcusable. And if Sakurai was willing to add a rep to a franchise that didn’t deserve it, I ask why he didn’t just add two, especially when the first was a half-@$$ed de-clone and so many people wanted Krystal in brawl. He said he wanted more females, and as people are saying only too often: she would have used a staff. I don’t think Krystal deserves to be as popular as she is, but the fans wanted her and using a staff-wielder would have made up for her lack of importance to Star Fox. And that extra Metroid slot had to be given to someone.

F-Zero deserved another rep. The series is generally a flop, the characters remain in their vehicles the entire time (hence difficulties in moveset creation), but goddammit it deserves two reps just as much as Metroid deserves three. There are definitely enough characters to choose from, and I think that might be why none were chosen. The three most likely candidates were Samurai Goroh, Black Shadow, and Jody Summer. Jody is just another generic blond who has less fanbase than the other two, so she was least likely to become playable. I think most people were rooting for Samurai Goroh, as he has the potential for a more unique moveset (and he’s a samurai, which is freakin’ awesome). If Black Shadow had made it in, he would probably be a Ganondorf clone (lol). It really depended on whether Sakurai wanted a more complex character for SSE or just a pure evil mastermind. Either way, we deserved at least one more F-Zero rep (maybe two, if you account for SF’s four reps, but considering that would have been allowed due to Metroid’s lack of characters, that argument loses potency).

Earthbound/Mother is also incredibly disappointing. I don’t see how a series with only three games deserves two reps while Metroid and F-Zero only get one, but when Lucas was revealed I think we were willing to allow it as long as Ness wasn’t a clone of him (the cruel irony of it all: Ness…a clone). It would still have been hard getting over the fact that they look the same and Ness could easily have been a color change (more irony), but Claus was always out. Yes, he looked different from Lucas (unlike Ness, although he is supposedly Lucas’ brother), and he had potential for a unique moveset (unlike Ness), but if Mother/Earthbound only had two reps, they would only get a villain PC if there weren’t any deserving protagonists (like with Metroid). Ness is another deserving protagonist. But we are all angry because Sakurai gave Earthbound/Mother another rep and didn’t bother to make it unique. Just another half-@$$ed clone.

Fire Emblem got screwed over the most. It has a plethora of various characters from many different titles, so the choices were endless as to which main characters would make it in and how they would play. And look what we got: two blue-haired, sword-wielding sissies. Yes, they play differently, but they are hardly representative of Fire Emblem as a whole. Those of you who wanted Ike in, I hate you. Those of you who wanted Marth in after Ike was confirmed, I hate you more. You are about as original as Disney sequels. For those of you who wanted him in because he was “the first lord,” there were plenty of other lords that were DIFFERENT from Marth/Ike. For those of you who wanted him in because he kicked @$$, it would have made much more sense to have Lyn in with his moveset and stats. Ideally, Sakurai wouldn’t have been stupid and just had given Ike Marth’s moveset so this predicament wouldn’t exist about Fire Emblem only being represented by sword-fighters and instead have people like Sothe (new Wii game hype, just like Roy, only better cuz he has a dagger) and Micaiah (ZOMFG!!!! WHERE’S HER SWORD?!?! Oh…duh). Additionally, FE, given that it has a fair amount of games, could have used a third character, making the decisions to “cut” characters a little less grueling. And Marth’s a pansy.

The independent and retro series were generally fine (with one HUGE exception). Yoshi had no reason to not come back, and Wario had every reason to join (although I find his three costume changes excessive). Olimar was a shoe-in. He only has two games, but people love him and I love pikmin slaves. I don’t think Animal Crossing even deserved a stage, but if Tom Nook is as violent as I hear, I guess he wouldn’t have been too out of place in brawl. There was only one other series that I feel deserved a character—with one character on the presumed starting roster from a starting series and an AC secret rep looming in the shadows, only one more seemed reasonable. Isaac from Golden sun deserved to be in brawl because of his extreme popularity in Europe. I had never heard of him before, but if characters who are specifically popular to Japan (like Ness and Marth) can get in, then I figured this would be a smart political move for Sakurai—to prove that he listens to all of the fans, and not just the Japanese ones. ICs were on thin ice (lol, I made a funny) popularity-wise, but it was pretty certain that Sakurai wouldn’t throw away such a unique character(s). The same went for G&W; even though he sucks and I don’t think he is as integral to Nintendo’s history as people think he is. There was a huge toss-up between a crapload of one-time games. I think the most popular were Pit, Balloon Man, Sukapon, Takamaru, Ray 01, Lip, and Mach Rider. Realistically, only two or three would make it in max. This made sense as both Pit and ICs were revealed on the Dojo, and we figured that G&W wouldn’t be the only secret retro character, and if the game were as good as it is being hyped (along with the above projected reps), two more newcoming secret characters was realistic. Seeing as they all had nearly equal fanbases, no one really cared which—Sukapon would punch stuff, Takamaru could take Marth’s moveset so we wouldn’t have any more FE swordsmen/women, Ray could do cool robotic stuff, Lip could sit there and look cute. All had excellent potential. And we got R.O.B. I really hate R.O.B. He’s not even a character. He might have saved Nintendo the first time, but there are many other characters who have continued to save it multiple times. Nintendo wouldn’t continue to exist without such games as Zelda, Mario, and Pokemon; yet Sakurai would deny Mario and Zelda the right to a new character in exchange for R.O.B. Everyone would not have minded R.O.B. so much if it weren’t at the expense of so many REALLY GOOD AND POPULAR CHARACTERS, both retro and current.

The third party reps were a huge DUH!!! For everyone. Apparently it is really hard to get third party reps in an exclusively Nintendo franchise, as Sakurai literally revealed ALL OF THEM for hype before the game came out. Even though he implied that he would get maybe one or two more, it makes perfect sense now that he couldn’t afford to keep Sonic and Snake secret and would have revealed any others, no matter how awesome they were. I wouldn’t be surprised if he tried to get more and failed, but that’s his fault for saving it until the last minute (I mean, it was only a few months before brawl came out that he managed to get Sonic). It was also apparent that these were going to be the third party company’s icons, not just popular characters, so there was only going to be one “mascot” from each company—no Simon Belmont/Bomberman or Tails/Nights. For most, there were only three other companies that deserved reps: Capcom for it’s rivalry, Squeenix for its contributions to the NES and SNES, and Rare for its contributions to the SNES and N64 under Nintendo. Without going into too much detail here, the obvious mascot for Capcom was Megaman, and Rare’s was Banjo-Kazooie. I really dislike Megaman and can’t see why people like him, but he was the most likely given his popularity. Banjo-Kazooie deserved it simply because they were made for brawl. They were incredibly unlikely, however, as everyone knows about Microsoft’s possissiveness. Square Enix was an issue, because its rep would be from FF. Sorry Crono and KH guys, but this is “mascots” we’re talking about. I like Geno, but he was a main character in one game, and cannot be considered an “icon” to the Mario series nor a “mascot” of Square Enix. Get over it; he’s superfluous. Cloud, the most recognizable, was also the least deserving. All of the known characters from FF1-6 were only in one game (except Cid, whom we al know doesn’t deserve it), and anything that was in more than one was as close as possible to a mascot, but hardly a “character”. Hence, chocobo, black mage, and mog just weren’t interesting enough to be made into characters, even if they were in a crappy Mario sports spin-off. It would have been easier to just not choose. Thus, with only one or two more third-parties, we were expecting Megaman (ugh) and hopefully but probably not Banjo-Kazooie. Sakurai should not have gotten our hopes up on that, even though it was only one character.

Again, we weren’t angry that we didn’t get the characters we wanted, we just didn’t get enough of the ones we wanted and got too many that we really didn’t want. It was inevitable that some popular characters wouldn’t make it in and one or two unpopular ones would—we just didn’t expect the roster to turn out this shiity based on the Dojo updates. But since I’ve bothered to type this much, let’s see about how big this hypothetical roster would have been that all realistic people were expecting.

6 Mario reps
5 Pokemon reps
5 Zelda reps
2/3 DK reps
3 Kirby reps
2 Metroid reps
3/4 Star Fox reps
2 F-Zero reps
1/2 Earthbound reps
3/4 Fire Emblem reps
4/5 Independent reps
4/5 retro reps
3/4 third-party reps
Total: 43-50 characters

Now those of you who are saying that only 50+ characters could have satisfied the “whiners” out there, try and use some of your fake logic to prove that 43 = 50. And even then, we were aware that some cuts might be made in some places, so we weren’t even expecting that many. Even 35 characters might have been acceptable, but the real issue here is that they are shiity choices for characters and representation. And when you look at it, Sakurai was being a fascist pig when doing it. I would normally say nationalistic, but you can’t be nationalistic about a company. He catered to Nintendo’s wants by putting in R.O.B. He catered to his own wants by adding both D3 and MK. He catered to his/Japan’s wants by adding Lucas. He catered to Japan’s wants by adding Ike and keeping Marth, and not putting in Ridley. Then he went mad and screwed over Mario and Zelda. Overall, I think the roster is pathetic because Sakurai really didn’t listen to the global opinion on who should be in brawl—he just listened to Japan/Nintendo/himself. If you look at the three characters who didn’t make the cut in the game rip (other than Mewtwo, which was brutal) (assuming the rip is real, which it could be), it reveals that he still didn’t know wtf he was doing; how could he have thought that Dixie, Roy, and Toon Zelda/Shiek (probably Tetra w/ sheik moveset) would be acceptable replacements for K. Rool, Lynn, and Skull Kid? He really fuccked up the roster this time and after seeing SSE in play footage I’m really angry at him for creating it at all. The cutscenes are great, but everything in between is substandard sidescrolling with pretty but monotonous backgrounds. It’s very boring. And with all of the enemies that no one cares about, he could easily have eliminated them, added a few more classic enemies, and used the extra time to make some more PCs. I think everyone on this site should push for DC, because if Nintendo really listens to the fans like it says it does, we could potentially increase that roster to what it should have been. If it doesn’t, then we know why the roster sucks.

I don’t expect anyone to read all of this, even though it is mildly interesting. I would prefer it if those of you who do flame do so, however, because if there’s one thing I hate, it’s stubborn ignorance.
*Samurai Panda asked me to post this here instead of a separate thread, so that is what I shall do.


Let me first state that I am not making this thread in an attempt to tell you to "STOP FIGHTING GUYS" or anything like that. This thread is not out to tell you what to do, and I intend on not doing so. I just have a simple message I want to address and put out on the table that many people seem to forget. If you are going to come in here and try to start crap, then you will only be showing your ignorance. This is not a hate meeting for EITHER side, just a simple message. Have some respect and treat it as just that.

The popular consensus seems to be for hating Sakurai and the development crew for whatever reason. Let the hate flow. It is natural to pour your anger into an outlet of whatever kind, whether it be inanimate or animate, so if you need to vent by blaming it on something, go ahead and do just that. Fuming with anger and keeping it bottled in isn't healthy anyways.

Bear in mind however, that to make the claim that Sakurai ignored his fans is only a result of your blind anger. It is just not true. He did not ignore you, and he most certainly would never turn his back on his fans. If he turned his back on his fans, then there would be no Brawl. We would have Melee Online. Sakurai even brought this a step further and instead of leaving his fans in the dark, he wanted to keep them up to date on very recent and new info to help satiate our hunger. He didn't have to, but he did, and that shows a dedication that seems to be lacking in game developer nowadays.

There are quite a few people who blame Sakurai that because of his Dojo, their hype was killed. It is not his fault that you can't exercise personal restraint. He offered the Dojo as an optional thing, you, as an individual with the curiosity of a cat decided to waltz in and spoil yourself. Temptation is not grounds for making the excuse of forced action. You did it yourself. You have no one to blame but yourself for that one. Sakurai is not a mind wizard although he really does look like he could be one.

The biggest issue is of course, the roster. Many people were disappointed that their favorite character will not exchange in fisticuffs with their most hated mascot. This is natural and quite common to the point where I can understand the disdain a person would have regarding such news. However, you can't win over everybody, so you have to make due and do what you can to please as many people as possible. You can't win everyone over as there will always be that one person who sees hard effort as an excuse for laziness for not working on the character they wanted in the game.

He did a swell job. He worked with what he had and pumped out a very healthy amount of new talent comingled with old. We got a lot of new characters, and all the veterans from the first two games came back. We have a story mode, a stage builder, online, collectibles out of the wazoo, over 200+ songs, and the list continues to grow. He wanted to make this game last far beyond simple Vs. mode, and wanted to make sure that every inch of the game was able to pull fun from. He did exceptionally well in that aspect.

You can almost say, that amidst the designing of all these intricate modes and balancing our new batch of heroes and villains, that Sakurai lost track of time, and realized that he was going to come up a bit shorthanded on character representation. So what did that wascawwy wabbit do? What else but supply us those characters through the means of preserved strength and valor. Our AT's capture the true essence of the core character, their presence unweathered as they release their OWN "final smash" to show that they were lost but not forgotten. They leave their impact through the frantic flurries, slashing, gunfire and other means of leaving their mark. Their impact is strong and sturdy, and will not be so easily ignored.

Our bosses too preserve the core essence of the character. Many people wonder why Ridley is not playable, when the answer is not so much that Sakurai didn't see him fit enough to be controlled by the hands of salivating fans everywhere, but rather saw Ridley as something more grandeur, a playable slot not enough to warrant the essence that is Ridley. Consider boss characters in Brawl as characters that are too good to be handled by a mortal hand. These cats don't play around. Their savage nature and relentless background shatter the realm of AT and they evolve into an entity that can not be pushed aside like a mere AT. Sakurai knew of Ridley's background, and his legions of fans and why they liked him, which is why he figured it would be only for the best that he retained those qualities through the means of making him one fierce boss to fight.

Sakurai has always cared about his fans you see. So much so that we got all this new stuff; all this new material that fans really did want to see. It is truly amazing how despite all this work, all the sweat and tears put into making this game, that they still managed to evolve the roster they way they did. People complain about the clones, when in reality they fail to realize just how much work it took to get all this stuff to the high numbers that are now in the endgame. Consider clones not as an insult to the character, but rather an honest effort to further the roster along, doing what they can with what little time they did have left. So much work goes into one character, but the later ones take the most work. My theory is that, for Toon Link, Wolf, Falco, Ganon, Lucas, that they were the unfortunate ones at the back of the line. I would probably put Toon Link at the far back, seeing as how he is the one who is seemingly the worst of the clones.

Time is not infinitive, and with already three delays, it would have probably shattered Sakurai to have to push it back again. What people here fail to realize is that with every delay, the creator who was ever so passionate in making this title has to watch his fans suffer due to technicalities. It must be like knifes to the gut to watch as his fans are continued to be let down and teased with the one gift Sakurai wants to get off his hands and give to you. It is with this, I believe the 3 landmasters came about, as well as the other cloned FS's. Quick patchwork to guarantee that the game we have all been waiting for years will finally be spinning in our wiis, delivering to us a visual splendor we have dreamed about since the final days of Melee.

In conclusion. Sakurai has always cared about us, the fans. He did what could be done with the time that he had, and he made every last minute count. It is because of this I am grateful to have Sakurai create our game, because with such a passion of pleasing the fans, only one thing is certain:

He knows how to make a darn good game.

That is all. Fiend out.
Brain hurts, Fandangox feels the need to smash everyone else.

But seriously, Mikau, I read the whole post and it a very good post.
 

Mikau et al

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But you're not understanding. Honestly, you guys... *sigh*

I posted a HUGE ****ing thread about "lets stop this bickering bull****" and now we're BACK to this. We're literally repeating THE SAME POINTS OVER AND ****ING OVER.

*Sigh*

First off, people GET the point. People GET that there COULD have been BIGGER characters in... but here's what you're not getting. He DID listen to fans. You're ignoring a LARGE number of the characters included. Yeah, even Wolf was on the ****ing poll. Even Toon link. Dedede.

He skipped a lot, we Understand. But please, you have much better arguments and powerful points than "He didn't listen to us." Now you're just scapegoating.

You're ****ing up smash boards. Honestly. People need to stop this bickering bull****. Regardless of what side you're on. I posted ONE topic and about 5 pages later, people started using the post to springboard it into something it wasn't meant to be. I said stop fighting, they took it as a message to go "YEAH! YOU SEE! YOU WHINERS SUCK!" Which was ******** and untrue.


Come on people. This is getting out of hand. You made your points, you've gotten what you need... Cut--it--the--****--out.
Honestly, my post started out as an analysis of why we were disappointed. I tried not to show my own disappointment, although I think that sort of came out at the end. That's what I get for writing for so long.
But at the same time: prove to me that Japanese opinion = world's opinion and then I will concede that Sakurai did what the Brawl fanbase wanted. Because I'm sure you know like the rest of us that the poll was Japan-exclusive. So, yes, Sakurai did listen to fans. The question is: what portion of them did he actually listen to?
 

Arteen

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I definitely agree with your assessment of Isaac (not just because I wanted him in). Including a Golden Sun rep would have been the perfect opportunity to throw a bone to Nintendo's European fans, but it looks like they get shafted again.

Brawl's problems = Melee's problems.

Difference?

Melee's were worse.
I think that's the crux of the disappointment with the Brawl roster.
 

Chepe

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Melee's roster was a failure. Just not as epic as this. It's been six years; that's long enough for people to convince themselves that melee's roster wasn't as bad as it really was.
I read your post and all, but then dont you think that what you just posted will eventually happen for Brawl anyways? Do you really think you wont be over the horrible roster in a few months or years once you actually play it?
 

lookatthatbaconsizzle

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Why do people still consider wolf a clone??? I've seen hi fight and he has different move animations and different moves (If I'm wrong correct me)!!!
 

VisetheStompy

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Now that the roster is out, Im fine with it. Though I definatly have quiet a few suggestions for the next games roster, should it come (Namely bringing Mewtwo back). A few franchises need another rep (Ridley being number one)

A couple movesets need to be tweaked (Toon link needs to draw his move set from the young/toon/WW link games. Ganondorf needs a couple more tweaks and give Luigi his Poltergeist 300). I actually like the cloney relation of Fox/Falco/Wolf it reminds me of the Ryu/Ken/Akuma dynamic. Though all characters at the very least need a distinguishing Final Smash.

I also think a couple of the franchises and Assit Trophies shown could definatly make the jump to full character next game.

A final note, please don't wait 6 years for the next one to get released. An expaned and tweaked roster with maybe a few new bells and whistles in the other modes is all you really need to get the fan base to come back for more (This strategy works for practicly every other fighting game franchise).

Edit: Extra suggestions Costume changes, you proved you can do it with Wario, easy way to expand the roster further without actually upsetting anyone.
 

Arteen

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Why do people still consider wolf a clone??? I've seen hi fight and he has different move animations and different moves (If I'm wrong correct me)!!!
Most of his moves are still based off Fox, so he's a clone. In Melee, all of Luigi's animations were different, but he was still (more or less) a clone.
 

Mikau et al

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I read your post and all, but then dont you think that what you just posted will eventually happen for Brawl anyways? Do you really think you wont be over the horrible roster in a few months or years once you actually play it?
That's exactly what I know will and don't want to happen. It happens with so many video games nowadays because the retailers hype them beyond what they can realistically execute. This is the period where our opinions of Brawl are the most genuine. If anything in the roster is going to be changed, people need to stop saying that "Nintendo won't add DC characters" and actually try and do something about it. NOW. Because that's the only way this roster is going to get better. And let's face it. There is plenty of room for improvement, just like Melee.

Otherwise, yes, in a few months people will have convinced themselves that this is the best roster ever. They have to, because there will be little hope for anything better.
 

lookatthatbaconsizzle

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I actually like the roster, every character I wanted got in.
I didn't. I got a kick out of how unique and odd and character G&W was. He was the definite WTF character for Melee. Sad thing is (even though I might be maining him), ROB is just not WTF enough for me. I was also really hoping for decloned Ganondorf and that Isaac kid to get in.
 

Chepe

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I agree. Plus...LANDMASTER!!!!:chuckle:
(I know, it's getting old, but people need to get it through their thick skulls...)
Yeah, the thing with me is that clone Final Smashes ARE inexcusable. I believed the 35 roster since its conception so I was ready for it and had come to terms with it. When I found out Toon Link and Ganondorf were still clones I started getting a little peeved, but I was over it too because they seem like they could be Luigified.

But the PK Starstorms, Triforce Slashes, and.... those **** Landmasters... I am still disappointed about the clone Final Smashes...
 

Chowmein987

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i dont understand why people are so peeved about the clones :/ to be honest i think they did their best with the clones to somewhat keep them similar from melee and give them new life.

now think about it. if they were merely clones and no one liked them it would have been easier to drop the char completely, but they must have some fan base to have stayed in brawl.

i am disappointed at the fact that toon link has the same final smash as big link.

but i love the fact that there is 3 landmasters!!!! :]

TANKS FTW

and PK starstorm FTL :[ (i dont get why they put lucas in NESS ALL THE WAY)
 
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Yeah, Sakurai sucks because he, like every other developer that could ever exist, did not satisfy as many people as he could.

I don't state opinion on this, I state fact.

Melee's roster sucks if Brawl's sucks, and Brawl's roster can never and will never be worse than Melee.

I don't pay attention to your bitter, whiny, complaints about how you overhyped yourself.
 

lookatthatbaconsizzle

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i dont understand why people are so peeved about the clones :/ to be honest i think they did their best with the clones to somewhat keep them similar from melee and give them new life.

now think about it. if they were merely clones and no one liked them it would have been easier to drop the char completely, but they must have some fan base to have stayed in brawl.

i am disappointed at the fact that toon link has the same final smash as big link.

but i love the fact that there is 3 landmasters!!!! :]

TANKS FTW

and PK starstorm FTL :[ (i dont get why they put lucas in NESS ALL THE WAY)
I could create (myself) movesets that are new for toon link, falco, and ganon. Seriosuly. Thats what makes me mad about that lack of effort. Come on, its as easy as this: (This is a ONE MOVE example) instead of Toon Link Slashing his sword for his running A, he could jab you with his shield. WOW NOW THAT WAS HARD!
 

M.K

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Yeah, but could you program that as easily? A great phrase comes to mind, "Easier said than done"

I'm no expert, but it seems hard. Quit whining everyone. There is NOTHING you can do but enjoy the game as it is.
 

lookatthatbaconsizzle

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Yeah, but could you program that as easily? A great phrase comes to mind, "Easier said than done"

I'm no expert, but it seems hard. Quit whining everyone. There is NOTHING you can do but enjoy the game as it is.
I'm no game designer. I'm just saying THEY could. They're the experts.

I meant *create* as in the idea of "make up in my mind", if I confused you by that... sorry. :ohwell:
 

ZaeYeL

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I have a question as I've been searching I guess I just missed something, uhm, how do we know this is the complete roster? I mean it looks complete but that doesnt mean anything, I bet maybe atleast one more character'll show up thats just hard to get, you'd think it'd be a challenge or mystery unlocked to get new characters, but from what I've seen / heard just run through SSE and you got most characters. I think probably that, if one more character shows, I'll be really really happy...
Yea so maybe there's a character that is actually a secret, hard to get, and won't be found til' week or so zz later, ne way ANSWA plz!!!!!!
 

M.K

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Well, yeah, we could all "Dream up" movesets in our spare time. That's really easy. The fact is...programming these thoughts while corporate executives breathe down your neck, time in crunching, half your staff is eating doughnuts, the Subspace is half-done, trophies need labeling, 3rd party characters need confirmation....


...a bit much don't you think?
 

AtticusFinch

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I don't see why everyone is so upset about the roster and what not... I mean, it's not his fault you all expected him to put in everyone you wanted and do everything your way.....You say he had six years to make the game, but we all had six years to over hype it a bit, right?..

Edit: Also, this game was made not made in America, so he may have not been trying to just please us, im sure he was more directed twoards the Jappenese aduiance (Umm, sorry if I have some spelling errors)
 

lookatthatbaconsizzle

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I have a question as I've been searching I guess I just missed something, uhm, how do we know this is the complete roster? I mean it looks complete but that doesnt mean anything, I bet maybe atleast one more character'll show up thats just hard to get, you'd think it'd be a challenge or mystery unlocked to get new characters, but from what I've seen / heard just run through SSE and you got most characters. I think probably that, if one more character shows, I'll be really really happy...
Yea so maybe there's a character that is actually a secret, hard to get, and won't be found til' week or so zz later, ne way ANSWA plz!!!!!!
This video shows proof that the roster is 35, man...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
 

lookatthatbaconsizzle

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Well, yeah, we could all "Dream up" movesets in our spare time. That's really easy. The fact is...programming these thoughts while corporate executives breathe down your neck, time in crunching, half your staff is eating doughnuts, the Subspace is half-done, trophies need labeling, 3rd party characters need confirmation....


...a bit much don't you think?
Yeah, that's why Nintendo should have given them enough time to create the best game they could. But they rushed it... like everyone does.

Sorry for double post, I thought someone else would have commented already. :p
 

Mikau et al

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Yeah, Sakurai sucks because he, like every other developer that could ever exist, did not satisfy as many people as he could.

I don't state opinion on this, I state fact.

Melee's roster sucks if Brawl's sucks, and Brawl's roster can never and will never be worse than Melee.

I don't pay attention to your bitter, whiny, complaints about how you overhyped yourself.
I agree with the first. A few changes to the roster could have satisfied a lot more people than he did.
I agree with the second. Melee's roster did suck, if you don't remember what happened 6 years ago...Brawl's roster is better; just not better enough to merit our appreciation.
I refute the third. Yes, I am bitter. Many people are. But even ignoring that, it is not our fault if Sakurai and Co. "overhyped" the game. Most of those that looked at what Sakurai presented and logically interpolated got a much better roster than this. The fact that Sakurai's roster didn't even somewhat resemble what we pictured it to be implies that there is some discrepancy between what we thought he gave us and what he thought we wanted.
 

Mikau et al

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I don't see why everyone is so upset about the roster and what not... I mean, it's not his fault you all expected him to put in everyone you wanted and do everything your way.....You say he had six years to make the game, but we all had six years to over hype it a bit, right?..

Edit: Also, this game was made not made in America, so he may have not been trying to just please us, im sure he was more directed twoards the Jappenese aduiance (Umm, sorry if I have some spelling errors)
First: already been stated and refuted. His roster doesn't even come on par with the most conservative predictions, given what he showed us. It's Sakurai who overhyped, not us.
Second: I've already said that like three times. He pleased the Japanese audience very well. It just turns out that the rest of us get screwed over in the process.
 

lookatthatbaconsizzle

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I agree with the first. A few changes to the roster could have satisfied a lot more people than he did.
I agree with the second. Melee's roster did suck, if you don't remember what happened 6 years ago...Brawl's roster is better; just not better enough to merit our appreciation.
I refute the second. Yes, I am bitter. Many people are. But even ignoring that, it is not our fault if Sakurai and Co. "overhyped" the game. Most of those that looked at what Sakurai presented and logically interpolated got a much better roster than this. The fact that Sakurai's roster didn't even somewhat resemble what we pictured it to be implies that there is some discrepancy between what we thought he gave us and what he thought we wanted.
Seriosuly, how could someone who made all that awesome content skimp on the one thing that (basically) matters the most? I just don't get it.
 

M.K

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Would have a couple of the starters (Dedede, PKMN Trainer, Wario) transforming into Unlockable character (that we did not know about previously) soothe the pain?

That's what I ponder...
 

LavisFiend

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I've already seen this post. Don't think that because I'm a n00b that I don't read these threads and actually try to inform myself about what's going on.
I too hate all of these threads that are bytching about one character, but the fact that there are so many, generally about the same few characters, indicates that there was obviously something the fans wanted that Sakurai just didn't get. He might have cared about "us," the collective fans, but his knowledge only goes as far as "them," the Japanese fans. Don't try to pretend it's not true, because the evidence points towards that.
Personally, I blame stickers. Sakurai "thought of everything," but that everything took away from what could have been a kick@$$ roster. This is just mediocre.
No offense, but what is your problem?

I don't know why you are getting so hostile towards me, especially when I said nothing to you.

Chill out.

The Japanese fans got just as disappointed as the rest of the world. I don't know where you get off thinking the Japanese have different tastes and the Japanese alone.

Stickers had no real effect against the roster. I don't know why you think that either. The amount of coding a sticker would take is minimal at best; even trophies would take more work because trophies are 3d rendered as opposed to stickers being 2D rendered.
 
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