~Official Ness Match-Up Discussion~

Nestec · Jun 10, 2008

Eh, I don't see why there isn't one of these yet...o_O

Alright, as Ness mainers, most of us should understand that Ness is being ranked as severely low in the character listings so far, and some can go as far as to say he is being underrated!

Aside from having almost no tournament representation (which is a problem difficult to fix), Ness' real bad points and good points lie in his match-ups. (No duh...). The current match-up charts are quite poor and inaccurate, so we should try to help the community by at least shaping up Ness' match-ups. Yeah, our judgment may seem biased, considering he is our main. But as long as we support match-up arguments with firm proof, we can boost Ness up a little higher in the tiers, right?

Because of his bad tourney representation, I'm just gonna guess that the highest Ness can be right now is Upper-Mid. He is currently ranked at Lower-Mid/Lower Tier. (

) So as Ness mains, our mission should be to raise him to at least Upper Mid through means of analyzing his match-ups (okay, lol, now I'm just repeating myself).

Now I'm sure that if we get enough argument and enough strong points being made in these boards, we can draw some attention from other people helping to construct the match-up chart, and maybe they'll consider our suggestions. Sound good? Or a little too optimistic?

Okay, eh, to start off, let's discuss Ness' supposedly bad match-ups. Or good match-ups. Whatever.
*Lol, let's exclude Charizard and Marth from this, we already know they can slaughter Ness. :dizzy:

*

Discussion is open!

Edit:6-13-08:

Eh, I figure it'll be very helpful if I link some of the useful match-up topics for Ness that have been made on these boards. The links can be used for references, I suppose.

Vs. Ike
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173939

Vs. Wolf
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173189

Vs. Toon Link
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172948

Vs. Toon Link/Link
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168961

Vs. MetaKnight
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169371

Vs. Dedede
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169398

Vs. Olimar
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169143

Vs. Game & Watch
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168822

Brinzy · Jun 10, 2008

Could someone explain to me why Ness is disadvantaged against DK? Weight difference and raw power, I can see, but what really disadvantages Ness here?

_clinton · Jun 10, 2008

This topic had to be made when I was asking for help dealing with Snake?

Ok...but anyway...

Could someone explain to me why Ness is disadvantaged against DK? Weight difference and raw power, I can see, but what really disadvantages Ness here?

Well overall range as well...but overall Ness does have the + over DK IMO...

AdmantNESS · Jun 10, 2008

I think there was a matchups topic, but it must have been purged.

Well, I'll start by linking to two old threads that talk about a few matchups:

vs. Link/Toon Link
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168961

vs. Meta Knight
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169371

And .Yoshi's Ness guide has his opinions on match-ups. I'll go ahead and paste them. ...On second thought, it would take up a lot of space, so I'll link to Yoshi's guide: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156577

Starting with bad match-ups, hmmm. Starting with DK. A disadvantage? Are you referring to this chart here?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

That chart is influenced by input from those who debate in that thread. The only way to change it is to give well formed arguments against whatever matchups you disagree against and tourney data I think is also a factor.

This is what Yoshi says about DK's match-up:

DK is a big walking target for Ness. You can easily trap him with PK Fire, piston kicks, and even aerial sparkles. Be sure to watch out for his tilts and don’t get grabbed. It's also really easy to get Giant Punched after landing from a PK Missile, so really be careful when aiming back onto the stage. Your Missile will out-prioritize his punch and you'll end up hitting him while you simply get stopped, so it's not all bad.

I play as DK myself alongside Ness. I can say that Ness needs to avoid those tilts and that range of his as well as that grab. Being a big target, DK can be comboed easily. Of course, I need experience in fighting good DKs so I can get a better view on this. IMO, I don't think its a disadvantage, just that getting in close can be risky.

_clinton · Jun 10, 2008

IMO, I don't think its a disadvantage, just that getting in close can be risky.

Well the thing is...you don't have to get in close with DK...because you have PK Thunder...it pretty much makes him want to get in close a lot more overall...even with the charge punch that he has...

Ness' shining palms pretty much has more priority then a lot of DK's attacks IMO as well from what I've seen...but whatever...

Overall I feel that Ness can space himself out well vs. DK and overall most of the fights I've had vs. the monkey haven't been that hard for me...

Anyway according to that chart...these following characters...have a neutral setting, or some disadvantage (large and small)

Charizard (great)
Diddy Kong (Tie)
Donkey Kong
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game and Watch (great)
Ice Climbers
Ivysaur
Link
Lucario
Marth (great)
Meta Knight
Peach (tie)
Pikachu (tie)
Pikmin and Olimar
Pit (tie)
ROB
Shiek
Snake
Sonic
Squirtle
Toon Link
Wario
Wolf
Zero Suit Samus

25 total (4 with a tie, 3 with a large + on Ness)

And the following characters Ness has the jump on (large and small) for some reason...

Bowser
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Ike
Jigglypuff
Dedede
Kirby
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Samus
Yoshi
Zelda

13 total

The following characters on this chart I don't agree with in some way...IMO btw...

Diddy Kong (I think Diddy > Ness)
Donkey Kong (I already said my thoughts on this)
Mr. Game and Watch (I feel it is neutral actually)
Ice Climbers (Ness > IC)
Link (Again I feel it is neutral if anything)
Meta Knight (besides my 1st MK…I haven’t had any trouble fighting them, so I’m going to say at least Ness > MK)
Pikachu (how is this a tie? Ness > Pika IMO)
Pit (Ness > Pit)
Shiek (I think it is somewhat neutral actually)
Sonic (Ness > Sonic)
Toon Link (Again I think they tie pretty much)
Jigglypuff (I think JP > Ness)
Lucas (Another tie)

Brinzy · Jun 10, 2008

Well I couldn't pose a decent argument for getting Ness to run even (at least) with DK mainly because I don't know any experienced DK users. Maybe later on I'll try and find a good one and see for myself, and perhaps I'll end up reinforcing some of what's already been said. That one had me curious, but then again, DK isn't too common in the first place.

AdmantNESS · Jun 10, 2008

Brinzy · Jun 10, 2008

Well I read those posts. I agree that Ness should run even. I might cite some of those when I form an argument for him. Ness can definitely KO DK way before 170%... all of Ness's aerials can kill DK early on when used in certain situations:

- Ness can chase a DK off-stage with fair and make it back before DK does
- dair tears up DK's already bad vertical recovery
- nair has great priority and can set DK up for edgeguarding
- uair has been buffed, and it will kill DK before 170%, because uair will almost always be used on an opponent above the stage, and it can knock out opponents quite early. I'm not sure if DK's dair outprioritizes it or not...
- bair will kill before 170%, end of.

I'm sure DK's aerials are on-par with Ness's, but I believe that DK does not want Ness in the air. DK also needs to watch out for B-throw when he hits around 120%. I also think that Ness can edgeguard DK easily, and while he might still recover, more often than not, DK will have to outsmart a Ness to make it back to the edge safely, since he has so much to watch out for.

But yeah, I think DK and Ness run even. Maybe someone will fine-tune the argument in the match-up chart thread...

Browny · Jun 10, 2008

i am a ness main too btw so dont let my avatar fool you.

anyway i wouldnt dream put putting ness neutral to G&W and MK. theres a reason why those 2 destroy the majority of the cast, and ness isnt immune to that (dsmash out of shield... ARGH) unless you get a PKT2 off at early %, they will kill you at lower % every time, and wont even have to think to do it. bthrow is really the only option, but to get the throw off you risk getting into the dsmash range... and yeah

and sonic can give ness a lot of trouble. sonics u-air is very fast and has a hitbox that extends well past his legs, it goes through a lot of d-airs (TL dair, G&W d-air) when its timed right and since ness' d-air takes a while to get out, sonic can juggle with it really well. you pretty much cant camp him with pk thunder at all, trying will just result in getting grabbed and off stage sonic can spring to easily avoid it. when it comes to gimping ness sonic also has a pretty easy time of it, he can just float right next to ness and wait for the pkthunder for an easy homing attack, b-air or d-air semi-spike kill with no trouble returning to the stage.

Earthbound360 · Jun 10, 2008

I dont think Ness' matchups are as bad as people make them out to be.

CHarizard and Marth are crap because of the deathgrab, but that's it.

Ness kills big foes like Bowser and Ike because they cant DI out of PKF. He does decent on DK, not saying it's his best, but he still is in favor.

Ive played Snakes and not had too much trouble, or at least not asmuch as people say I would considering people think he's top tier. Ness can push grenades around and Snakes recovery has to be among the easiest to spike in the game. I seem to be able to stop mortar sliding with fairs, usmash, and PKF also. I could be wrong though.

Ness is good on Sheik, Peach, Captain Falcon, Olimar, Lucas, Mario, Ganondorf, Samus, Yoshi, and Fox from my experiences.

I have played Sonics, and while its true he can gimp Ness easily, it is also true that you can avoid gimps. Stalling with the PSIM will really help here as it throws the timing of Sonic's spring off. If you get hit with the spring directly, dont pacin, you can still make it even if he edgehogs.

Ness may have some trouble with G&W, Wolf, Metaknight, and Toon Link. At least, those are my fears.

BTW, we should ignore the matchup chart for now since no one there is really representing Ness. Once this thread picks up momentum and I play more people, I will represent us.

Kros · Jun 10, 2008

Main thing I do against a Sonic is usually just short hopping into a nair. If lucky, set up a combo with dgrab, but even then it's luck grabbing that guy.

Earthbound360 · Jun 10, 2008

Other than the gimping, Sonic doesnt have much on Ness IMHO

_clinton · Jun 10, 2008

BTW, we should ignore the matchup chart for now since no one there is really representing Ness. Once this thread picks up momentum and I play more people, I will represent us.

Well it seems kind of outdated as well...look at Ganondorf...

Mr. Escalator · Jun 10, 2008

Without the deathgrab, how would Ness compare with Charizard?

AdmantNESS · Jun 10, 2008

Lurking a bit at allisbrawl tier discussion, Ness is being argued starting from page 86 with Simna's post:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=2161&page=86

Earthbound360 · Jun 10, 2008

No deathgrab = Win Charizard, still bad Marth, but better. Marth isnt as bad as MK and Wolf IMO.

Mr. Escalator · Jun 10, 2008

Well, I was thinking that maybe the death grab shouldnt change the matchup too much. With proper DI and all the while trying to break out Marth takes Ness from one side of Final Destination to the other in about 80%, I believe. This is just a scenario, as you wont always be grabbed from one side, you may be caught in the middle, and some stages arent as long. Charizard lunges further with each grab, though I might be wrong, so the damage would be even less. His grab leads into a Dthrow at the end, so you have to factor that in somehow, but I dont think he has tilts speedy enough to hit Ness when he breaks out.

Marth is a bad matchup even when you take away his grab. Charizard gets destroyed without it, and the grab may not change the matchup tooo much.

Do you guys think that instead of the very large advantage the matchup chart gives Charizard over Ness that it should be changed to a smaller advantage, as it is with Squirtle?

_clinton · Jun 10, 2008

His grab leads into a Dthrow at the end, so you have to factor that in somehow, but I dont think he has tilts speedy enough to hit Ness when he breaks out.

Charizard's Down throw is a killing move IIRC...

Mr. Escalator · Jun 11, 2008

It is. I use Charizard on occasion. What Im saying is that the grab may very well not bring you up by too much percent, If grabbed at a low percent, he might not take Ness' percent up by nearly as much as Marth would, meaning there's a smaller range of time where he would be able to grab you and take you to the lethal percent. I dont know when the Dthrow starts killing Ness at.

At any rate, Ness should be doing well in this matchup in terms of spacing, so the grab is probably harder to land. The dthrow might not be the biggest problem, either, because it mightt not begin to be lethal until a manageable percent.

Earthbound360 · Jun 11, 2008

Like I said, Charizard would lose to Ness without the grab thing.
BTW, Squirtle CANNOT CG Ness

Nestec · Jun 11, 2008

@Earthbound360:

Yeah, thanks a lot for volunteering to represent the Ness boards for the arguments. I would help out with that if my argument skills were better. XD
So I guess the best I can do is to help provide as many hardcore statistics/research about Ness as possible. ^__^

It would be great if we could get some more tournament reps for Ness too. I can't really go to tournaments until I get a car next year. T__T

Earthbound360 · Jun 11, 2008

lol ditto XD
Next year Im driving $_$

Nestec · Jun 11, 2008

OT, so is this Simna person well-known?

He/she might be our best chance at tournament representation, judging by what just happened in the argument at allisbrawl. ^__^

AdmantNESS · Jun 11, 2008

Simna is the best Ness in the world actually. Melee and Brawl.

Mr. Escalator · Jun 11, 2008

Im not to sure about Brawl Simna, but Melee Simna was amazing.

Earthbound360 · Jun 11, 2008

Simna is still godly at Brawl. It's just that his videos dont demonstrate his skills.

_clinton · Jun 12, 2008

How about we talk about some other matches...like the Ice Climbers...the chart says that they have an advantage vs. Ness...but how?

eMORAY21 · Jun 12, 2008

There doesn't seem to be enough Ness's to make an acurate picture of his tier. That could be because he sucks and no one wants to play him, hence low tier? ....

Earthbound360 · Jun 12, 2008

Ness does not suck
_Clint, I havent played too many good Icys, so I have no avice on them.

AdmantNESS · Jun 12, 2008

For the Icys, obviously "Don't get grabbed". Also PK Fire should help separate them or do dmg to Nana. They can do high dmg if you let them. Ice blocks can be deflected with your bat. Blizzard can be absorbed. Don't have much else to say beyond that.

Mr. Escalator · Jun 12, 2008

Yes, PKFire is super effective vs the Ice climbers; Two targets are better than one! Nana seems to get stuck in the pillar longer, maybe bad AI? Hell, you probably can ignite the fire onto Nana before they recover to gimp them. AdmantNESS mentioned healing off of blizzard and bating the ice blocks, which might not work that well if they jump and use it over and over or desynch. Still might have some use. The grabs are mostly what you have to worry about, and that bthrow kills wont usually work if they're both alive.

EDIT:

I really see Ness as having the advantage, so I dunno why the chart says otherwise.

AdmantNESS · Jun 12, 2008

There is anyone defending Ness or arguing matchups concerning Ness on that topic where that chart is. That's why there are so many Xs. And yeah, I don't have that much experience against Ice Climbers.

_clinton · Jun 13, 2008

The Ice Climbers have plenty of disadvantages vs. Ness...for one...Ness actually has more range then they do...that is kind of scary...seeing as to how much range Ness happens to have ^_^

I've fought a few ICs...don't really know how good they were...but to be fair...I'm not the best at this game...so I guess it evens out ^_^

Oh and I pretty much battle on battlefield because I hate FD...so um keep that in mind...

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162441
The TC thinks Ness and the ICs are at an even playing ground...and I'll take that...however...

The ICs only have a few approach methods...Squall, Blizzard, and Ice Blocks...even though you can absorb Blizzard...you shouldn't...you should dodge as much as possible...desynch IC is their main strat for approaching you know...a good IC knows you can absorb a blizzard...however they don't care...

Ness' air game is greater then theirs as well...and is pretty much the best thing when it comes to avoiding grabs...

PK Fire if you can hit them...will put Popo at danger because of Nana...This works out well because one of the main strats to IC play is to desynch...PK fire can punish them for that...in fact overall I think its pretty easy to seperate Popo from Nana with Ness just to let you know that...

This is another reason why PK thunder rules as well you know...because you can seperate Popo and Nana with it very easilly...Popo may block PK thunder2...but Nana might not be so lucky ^_^

Really they do have a few advantages vs. Ness though...

Ness' killing back throw is somewhat hard to use on them...because the partner can bail the other one out of it sometimes...and if they grab you...well...you are going to take a lot of damage ok...however the down throw is still ok to use...because of the fire from it...

Their down smash is a 40% attack...un charged...oh and its an ok killing move as well...

an advantage to being desynched right is that you can pretty much make the IC's attacks have no lag...oh and making that grab they need becomes easier as well...

They can gimp Ness' recovery (and pretty much anyone else's actually) with just Ice Blocks...ever been hit by these...you don't move anywhere...they are just for annoying you...this is very bad for Ness and somewhat bad for Lucas though (not as bad though because of his thunder2 and snake...he can actually move in the air w/o the double jump) because Ice blocks **** thunder...

Oh and even though Ness overall has the air game advantage...the ICs up B is a killing move when they aren't using it to recover...Nana is pretty heavy I guess ^_^

Really though...Ness' air game is pretty much the shiny good star that he needs for these guys...
^_^

Nestec · Jun 13, 2008

Well, what tricks do ICs players use? Is it just chain-grabbing and desynching?

I always figured that IC was actually one of Ness' only weaknesses. While PKF and PKT are broken moves, they usually only hit one person at a time. I don't know if Ness' tricks can take care of both Nana and Popo.

-EDIT-
Aagh, ignore this post, lol. I posted before reading any of Page 3. XD

NOTICE:
Btw, everyone, in my first post, I added some links to Ness match-ups discussed in the past.

Earthbound360 · Jun 13, 2008

Ness shouldnt do too bad on the Icys. You can gimp their recovery very easily with the heartbreaker. It carried over from Melee.

THat's when you hit the Ice climbers with PKT as they recover. It will either pull Nana away from Popo and make him die, or pull Popo away from Nana making it a one on one.

_clinton · Jun 13, 2008

How about we talk about Pikmin and Olimar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e3lGxkVp7A&NR=1http://
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e3lGxkVp7A

We don't have any 2nd thoughts at the Olimar board...so I just posted these videos...

Olimar pretty much beats Ness in close combat and can counter all of Ness' approaches pretty much...in fact Ness' dash attack is pretty much made worthless by Olimar's grabs...On ground Olimar beats Ness' Fair as well pretty much...just because of the grabs...oh and Olimar can also use UP B to stop Ness from flying around the level as well...

Olimar's special hit boxes are kind of annoying really ^_^

Really Ness doesn't want to get close to Olimar in fact I would say he wants to stay with-in yellow Pikmin range with the forward smash attack...why Yellow Pikmin you say? Because they are the 2nd lighest ones...

Olimar has an easily gimped recovery...but Olimar has a pretty easy job doing it to Ness as well...if a Pikmin is stuck on you when you start to use PK Thunder...they can take the thunder...

Ness has PK Fire...PK fire is very nice for this...think Ice Climbers and Nana...only you have 6 guys now...

You still can't rush Olimar pretty much...because his grabs can go throw the fire with even a white Pikmin (according to the main Pikmin guide on the board...white pikmin have a 4% life bar)

But this pretty much makes Olimar have to come closer to Ness...

This sets the pikmin a flame and pretty much allows Ness to fight back somewhat IMO...because he is pretty much making Olimar come closer...if Olimar doesn't come close Ness can bait him with PK Thunder...

Ness can kill with the back throw at easily just a little bit over 100% on certain stages...

What I'm trying to say is...Ness needs to be more defensive in a fight like this...they both pretty much make each other do something the other one doesn't want to do...

Nestec · Jun 13, 2008

So basically, Ness' main issue against Olimar is safe approach?

Yeah, I'm thinking it would be best to handle Olimar from afar or something. Olimar's only projectile is his Pikmin, which Ness can keep away with PK Fires and PK Thunders. With enough long-range pressure, Olimar will be persuaded to come in close, I assume. So would this mean that Ness wouldn't even need to approach?

Once close-up, Ness can easily build up Olimar's damage up to 100%, where a bthrow can be attempted (I think this is the best kill option vs. Olimar). I guess one could rely on s-hopped Fairs and Nairs. That's all I can think of; do those aerials beat out Olimar's moves? I'm pretty sure Fair does, but I don't know about Nair.

Dpete · Jun 16, 2008

How do Ness mainers feel about Ness vs Kirby? The current match-up chart states an advantage for Ness, though several people over on the Kirby boards feel it is at least neutral if not in Kirby's favor. You can read some of their arguments here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176103

Earthbound360 · Jun 16, 2008

I like vs. Kirby
Good for us

Dpete · Jun 16, 2008

Earthbound360 said:
I like vs. Kirby
Good for us

Any facts to back that up?

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