Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[SAUS]

Yes, except I don't think you need to l-cancel it.

You don't. B moves cannot be l-cancelled, but with falco's lasers, when you hit the ground, the animation cancels by itself. You get the typical 4-frame landing animation.

If you just press up+A OoS you get a grab, I've read you can hit up on the c-stick twice, but that seems ridiculous to me. I just press up on the control stick and c-stick in quick succession. Up on the control stick to jump, then up on the c-stick to cancel your jumpsquat into an usmash.

This is how I do it as well. The reason it is hard is because you actually can't up-smash out of shield. The reason it works is because you can up-smash out of your jumping animation (jumpsquat animation), and you can jump out of your shield. The way to up-smash out of your shield is: jump, then up-smash before you leave the ground.

No, it does not have 2 sensors. (to my knowledge) How short hopping works: You press jump, if you release jump before you're airborn (while still in jumpsquat animation) then you short hop. If you release it after you're airborn (after your jumpsquat animation...) then you'll fullhop. The length of jumpsquat animation depends on the character. E.g., Fox & Sheik's jumpsquat is 3 frames, where as Ganon's is 6.

I don't think it is different in Brawl, but I don't know for sure. What's said here is correct. You just have to let go of the jump button before you leave the ground (during the jumpsquat animation which is the same animation you are up-smashing out of in the above scenario). In melee at least, it doesn't matter how far you press the button down.

It's notable that each character has a specific amount of time spent in jumpsquat (though most of the characters share the amount of time with a lot of other characters). If you are having trouble with all of this, try it with someone like Link or Bowser first. Link's jumpsquat is 7 frames and Bowsers is 9. Most of the characters have 4 or 5 frames of jumpsquat (less that 0.1 seconds!) so you have to be pretty quick. It becomes very natural after lots of practice.

 

[Rarik]

It's notable that each character has a specific amount of time spent in jumpsquat (though most of the characters share the amount of time with a lot of other characters). If you are having trouble with all of this, try it with someone like Link or Bowser first. Link's jumpsquat is 7 frames and Bowsers is 9. Most of the characters have 4 or 5 frames of jumpsquat (less that 0.1 seconds!) so you have to be pretty quick. It becomes very natural after lots of practice.

Link's jumpsquat is actually 6 frames and bowsers is 8. You become airborne on the 7th and 9th frame respectively. Also, to further clarify, a full hop is determined by whether or not jump is being pressed on the last frame of the jumpsquat animation. Thus Fox, who is airborne on frame 4, with a 3 frame jumpsquat, has 2 frames to let go of jump. Just a side note you can hold an attack, special, or airdodge button on the last frame of your jumpsquat to immediately perform an aerial, special, or wavedash/airdodge upward, but you can't start holding on a previous frame. (You can press it, let go for a frame, then press again, so mashing is possible but not realistic)

 

[AlphaQHard]

thanks y'all

 

[Monkley6]

Also, to further clarify, a full hop is determined by whether or not jump is being pressed on the last frame of the jumpsquat animation. Thus Fox, who is airborne on frame 4, with a 3 frame jumpsquat, has 2 frames to let go of jump.

I never thought about that O_o

 

[AlphaQHard]

What's short hop double laser fast fall? I can only shoot one laser on my short hop before touching the ground

 

[Rarik]

Going to assume you're talking about Fox, and the fast fall part is unnecessary. If you're only getting one laser in your short hop then it means you aren't pressing B soon enough after jumping. If I remember correctly you only have a few frames after you're airborne to press B if you want to double laser. It's something like 3 frames before you can no longer double laser.

 

[Chrome Smash]

Why am I getting 2 stocked by a level 9 game and watch? What am I doing wrong? I can't beat it, I know proper teqniquies but I can't use them properly or defensively. Should I give up melee?

 

[Rarik]

Don't give up. CPUs are very predictable, so take the time to observe what your opponent is doing, and think about how the character you're using can beat that.

 

[Bones0]

Why am I getting 2 stocked by a level 9 game and watch? What am I doing wrong? I can't beat it, I know proper teqniquies but I can't use them properly or defensively. Should I give up melee?

1. Beating CPUs doesn't really mean much.
2. Spam drill grab, uthrow uair.

 

[AlphaQHard]

Going to assume you're talking about Fox, and the fast fall part is unnecessary. If you're only getting one laser in your short hop then it means you aren't pressing B soon enough after jumping. If I remember correctly you only have a few frames after you're airborne to press B if you want to double laser. It's something like 3 frames before you can no longer double laser.

thanks, so falco cant do short hop double laser?
so for short hop double laser the fast fall is unnecessary, but for short hop single laser the fast fall is useful?

 

[Rarik]

thanks, so falco cant do short hop double laser?
so for short hop double laser the fast fall is unnecessary, but for short hop single laser the fast fall is useful?

Correct, Falco cannot short hop double laser.
For short hop single laser, fast falling will change the height of the laser which can be very useful, especially for Falco. Also, fast falling when trying to do a double laser will, in most cases, cause you to only shoot a single laser, so it's really more counter-productive than unnecessary

 

[AlphaQHard]

Correct, Falco cannot short hop double laser.
For short hop single laser, fast falling will change the height of the laser which can be very useful, especially for Falco. Also, fast falling when trying to do a double laser will, in most cases, cause you to only shoot a single laser, so it's really more counter-productive than unnecessary

For sure. good to know, thanks.

 

[GhostOfStarman]

This must sound really noobish but what exactly does wave dashing do? And is it a priority to learn?

 

[Ecoh]

This must sound really noobish but what exactly does wave dashing do? And is it a priority to learn?

Wavedashing lets you quickly reposition yourself with minimal lag. It also lets you set yourself up in and advantageous edgeguarding position.

As for its importance: Wavedashing is one of the single most important skills you can learn, closely followed by L-cancelling. There are several good guides on teh interwebz; it shouldn't be too hard to find.

 

[Bones0]

This must sound really noobish but what exactly does wave dashing do? And is it a priority to learn?

WDing allows you to move quickly while still being able to use all of your ground moves without a lot of lag. If you dash instead, you aren't able to do stuff like tilts, smashes, and even some specials as quickly as you might need to. For more, watch this video (there are 3 parts): Advanced How to Play

 

[AlphaQHard]

have any of you played a game that requires faster button pressing than melee?

 

[Bones0]

have any of you played a game that requires faster button pressing than melee?

Only one:

Spoiler

Mario Party

 

[SAUS]

Wavedashing lets you quickly reposition yourself with minimal lag. It also lets you set yourself up in and advantageous edgeguarding position.

As for its importance: Wavedashing is one of the single most important skills you can learn, closely followed by L-cancelling. There are several good guides on teh interwebz; it shouldn't be too hard to find.

I'd say the 3 techniques used for SHFFLing are the most important techniques, then dash dancing and wavedashing can be learned after. Maybe they should just all be prioritized the same... In any case, as long as you learn those techniques, the order doesn't matter.

 

[rpotts]

I agree, many characters can be amazing without wavedashing at all, Falcon, Sheik and Peach spring to mind. I don't think any character can get "good" without short hopping and L cancelling unless you literally never approach and win with grabs and ground moves only, which I suppose Marth or Sheik could do at an early competitive low level.

 

[Ecoh]

I would totally agree with the SHFFLing comment. I just didn't consider short hopping and fast falling as "techniques," which was an error on my part; it's just something I developed naturally, as opposed to L cancelling and wavedashing, which were things I actually had to practice.

On another note: I've never really utilized Sheik's SHFFL. Is that simply me being dumb? It just seems like a sub-par approach as opposed to a boost grab or dash attack. A spaced b-air would be appropriate, I guess.

 

[hectohertz]

sheik absolutely needs shffling and wavedashing. dash attack is not safe on shield at all, whereas shffl fair is. the spaced bair is good, but unless you are doing AC bairs, you need to shffl those bairs as well :D
also wd back -> ftilt/grab is one of the most bread+butter things sheik can do.


actual question time: how many pummels should i go for at various percents, assuming my opponent is mashing (note, im not interested in the numbers for TAS level mashing, assume the player mashes at a level usual for a competitive player)

 

[hectohertz]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Perfect_shield

- When you release the shield button, you normally have 15 frames of shield release lag (I may be off by 1-2 frames). If you PS, the game will allow you to do A-attacks during this shield release lag. Thus, if you PS an attack, you can let go of shield and fsmash, dtilt, or do other ground moves more quickly than if you had to WD in place or undergo shield release lag before attacking.

does grab count as an A-attack here? also, i've heard people say that you can jump (and so wd) if you PS earlier than if you just regular shielded. what part of that is true?

 

[Bones0]

actual question time: how many pummels should i go for at various percents, assuming my opponent is mashing (note, im not interested in the numbers for TAS level mashing, assume the player mashes at a level usual for a competitive player)

Just try it at various percents and you should start to know intuitively when they will get out. Make sure you aren't pummeling for bthrow gimp attempts and other stuff where you are just giving them morem time to figure out and input the best DI.

does grab count as an A-attack here? also, i've heard people say that you can jump (and so wd) if you PS earlier than if you just regular shielded. what part of that is true?

I'm not sure, but I don't think so because you can't reshield during PS shield release and Z is essentially shield+A.

PSing doesn't affect shield stun at all, so you cannot grab or jump faster by PSing than otherwise. All it does is allow you to use grounded A-moves during shield release.

 

[AlphaQHard]

wont be home to practice for a week but was wondering if fox can dash away from opponent, short hop double laser in his opponents direction

Only one:

Spoiler

Mario Party

hahahaha

 

[Bones0]

wont be home to practice for a week but was wondering if fox can dash away from opponent, short hop double laser in his opponents direction



hahahaha

Yes, once you're airborne, you can quickly tap left/right on the control stick and then release it to laser in either direction.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

Hello all I have been playing n64 for a long time and just recently came to melee. I am now able to short hop and l-cancel consistently. I can also wave-dash as well, but haven't found much use for it yet.

I main Marth and was hoping someone could direct me to a good guide or tutorial video. I really want to improve my game and have been practicing advanced techniques but I am missing how to piece them together.

A few areas I notice I am weak is:
1. How do I approach with marth? I normally short hop f-air into f-smash, but I feel like I get out ranged by others easily. I also dash dance and grab as an approach.
2. Once I land a grab, what do I do? I can sometimes chain f-throw or u-throw, but then it just ends and I only do a measly 15% or so with the grabs.
3. What combos can I practice to deal decent damage. like standard combos that I can do at roughly any percentage on a good majority of characters.

Links to guides or videos would be great, or just answers to the above questions.

Thanks

 

[Bones0]

Hello all I have been playing n64 for a long time and just recently came to melee. I am now able to short hop and l-cancel consistently. I can also wave-dash as well, but haven't found much use for it yet.

I main Marth and was hoping someone could direct me to a good guide or tutorial video. I really want to improve my game and have been practicing advanced techniques but I am missing how to piece them together.

A few areas I notice I am weak is:
1. How do I approach with marth? I normally short hop f-air into f-smash, but I feel like I get out ranged by others easily. I also dash dance and grab as an approach.
2. Once I land a grab, what do I do? I can sometimes chain f-throw or u-throw, but then it just ends and I only do a measly 15% or so with the grabs.
3. What combos can I practice to deal decent damage. like standard combos that I can do at roughly any percentage on a good majority of characters.

Links to guides or videos would be great, or just answers to the above questions.

Thanks

There aren't really any guides about actual gameplay, strangely enough. I think Melee is so complex that it's really hard for anyone to put into words how to play well overall. You can talk about specific scenarios, but there's tons of uniquely specific scenarios in every single game so it ends up being a lot of improvisation. Matchups also tend to have wildly different strategies because of how diverse the cast is physics-wise. You should go to the Marth forums and read through the Dr. Peepee advice thread (maybe start from like 6 months back and just start reading). Aside from that, you should watch a ton of videos and almost all of the questions you have, including the ones you just posted, can be answered on your own by analyzing what other good Marth players do.

 

[rpotts]

Ken's Marth Tutorial covers a lot of basics but is painful to watch/listen to and is absurdly long and not planned well in the slightest. Watch at your own risk.

 

[Alulim]

Does anybody happen to understand the mechanics behind Edge Canceling, including the 'How-To-Do-It' consistently part?
Thank you!

 

[Bones0]

Does anybody happen to understand the mechanics behind Edge Canceling, including the 'How-To-Do-It' consistently part?
Thank you!

When your character slides up to or off of an edge, the game interrupts your landing lag. As far as doing it consistently, it's all about spacing correctly and making sure your momentum is going towards the ledge at least a little. The more horizontal momentum you have, the easier it is to ledge cancel. Also, some characters have a much easier time edgecancelling because their top horizontal momentum speed is higher. For instance, Jiggs can move back and forth in the air really well, so it's possible to drift towards the ledge at extreme angles.

 

[AlphaQHard]

How do you shield drop on a platform?

 

[Alulim]

When your character slides up to or off of an edge, the game interrupts your landing lag. As far as doing it consistently, it's all about spacing correctly and making sure your momentum is going towards the ledge at least a little. The more horizontal momentum you have, the easier it is to ledge cancel. Also, some characters have a much easier time edgecancelling because their top horizontal momentum speed is higher. For instance, Jiggs can move back and forth in the air really well, so it's possible to drift towards the ledge at extreme angles.

Thanks again for the explanation!

How do you shield drop on a platform?

I'm assuming you mean 'off a platform'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ
The following video explains the mechanics well.

The next video shows Axe's method in doing it (personally favoured by myself and many others for being seemingly easier and more consistent to do).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfAlxODHc48

You can also search up threads on shield dropping in the forums.

 

[AlphaQHard]

Thanks again for the explanation!



I'm assuming you mean 'off a platform'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ
The following video explains the mechanics well.

The next video shows Axe's method in doing it (personally favoured by myself and many others for being seemingly easier and more consistent to do).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfAlxODHc48

You can also search up threads on shield dropping in the forums.

yeah that's what meant. awesome, thanks

 

[xCardiac]

I've noticed that when I short hop out of a dash , I get the timing incorrectly and I always full hop. Is there a difference in time jumping from standstill vs. dash animation? It's probably my timing.

Is there a difference in the timing for L-cancels when hitting a shield vs hitting a regular char vs hitting nothing? If so, could I please have the frame data?

What is "parrying" with Yoshi? I've only seen it, but I was wondering what it is in technical terms.

 

[Bones0]

I've noticed that when I short hop out of a dash , I get the timing incorrectly and I always full hop. Is there a difference in time jumping from standstill vs. dash animation? It's probably my timing.

Is there a difference in the timing for L-cancels when hitting a shield vs hitting a regular char vs hitting nothing? If so, could I please have the frame data?

What is "parrying" with Yoshi? I've only seen it, but I was wondering what it is in technical terms.

1. It isn't really timing, just speed. You have to release the button before your character is airborne, during "jumpsquat". Marth always has 4 frames of jumpsquat before he is airborne whether you dashed before jumping or not.

2. Hitting a shield and character have the same amount of hitlag, but hitting nothing does not. Hitlag delays everything for a couple of frames, but how much hitlag is based on the strength of the attack and whether or not it's "electric" which increases the hitlag by 50% (that's why Falcon's knee and Ganon's stomp seem to freeze for extra long when they connect).

3. Yoshi's shield doesn't appear frame 1 like everyone else. His egg takes a few frames to appear, and during those frames he is invincibile and able to jump cancel. Parrying is when you use the invincibility to block an attack, and it is usually followed by JCing into a punish, though you can technically parry and grab, continue holding shield, roll, or whatever.

 

[xCardiac]

1. It isn't really timing, just speed. You have to release the button before your character is airborne, during "jumpsquat". Marth always has 4 frames of jumpsquat before he is airborne whether you dashed before jumping or not.

2. Hitting a shield and character have the same amount of hitlag, but hitting nothing does not. Hitlag delays everything for a couple of frames, but how much hitlag is based on the strength of the attack and whether or not it's "electric" which increases the hitlag by 50% (that's why Falcon's knee and Ganon's stomp seem to freeze for extra long when they connect).

3. Yoshi's shield doesn't appear frame 1 like everyone else. His egg takes a few frames to appear, and during those frames he is invincibile and able to jump cancel. Parrying is when you use the invincibility to block an attack, and it is usually followed by JCing into a punish, though you can technically parry and grab, continue holding shield, roll, or whatever.

Thanks! Damn Yoshi's got tricks in the bag. :O

 

[Acorn]

How do I stop dash attacking all the time?

I've figured out that if I'm running and I want to fsmash, if I tap crouch before I hit the c-stick it works properly. This doesn't work if I'm still in the dash animation though. Is there any way to cancel the initial dash animation so I can tilt/smash? Or is there a better way to approach with a tilt? (In my case I'd like to approach with Roy's dtilt)

Another thing I've been trying to do is an empty short hop waveland forward into dtilt. Is this a thing?

 

[Bones0]

How do I stop dash attacking all the time?

I've figured out that if I'm running and I want to fsmash, if I tap crouch before I hit the c-stick it works properly. This doesn't work if I'm still in the dash animation though. Is there any way to cancel the initial dash animation so I can tilt/smash? Or is there a better way to approach with a tilt? (In my case I'd like to approach with Roy's dtilt)

Another thing I've been trying to do is an empty short hop waveland forward into dtilt. Is this a thing?

The fastest thing you can do to end your dash animation before it finishes is to WD. If you don't want to go too far forward, you can just WD straight down at the spacing you want, but once you account for all the jumping and airdodge landing lag, it's quite slow. Your best bet would be to just WD initially instead of dashing at all. One of the greatest strengths of WDs over dashes is that you can easily and quickly tilt or fsmash/dsmash out of them.

Empty hop WLs can be a tricky mixup, but they rely on your opponent reacting to the SH. If the opponent sees you SH as Roy, they are probably just going to CC so when you WL towards them, you will probably have to shield their CC counterattack and then punish the lag. If they shield instead of CCing, you can just WL towards them and grab, but dtilt could work if you know it will poke. I suggest you watch videos of top Marth players to figure out how they land their dtilts, and then apply the same sort of idea to Roy.

 

[Acorn]

Your best bet would be to just WD initially instead of dashing at all. One of the greatest strengths of WDs over dashes is that you can easily and quickly tilt or fsmash/dsmash out of them.

That makes sense. I've just recently gotten to the point where I can wavedash 100% of the time, but don't really know how to use it yet. I just spam it constantly to move around but not to any real great effect. I'll try this idea.

Empty hop WLs can be a tricky mixup, but they rely on your opponent reacting to the SH. If the opponent sees you SH as Roy, they are probably just going to CC so when you WL towards them, you will probably have to shield their CC counterattack and then punish the lag. If they shield instead of CCing, you can just WL towards them and grab, but dtilt could work if you know it will poke.

Some good advice here too. Thanks.

 

[Krynxe]

Lowell, one really important aspect of this game is thinking about what to do in any given situation, and being prepared for it. Being able to react to your opponent and punish will not only give you the edge, but make your opponent feel less confident in what they're doing. Wavedashing allows you to set these sorts of situations up, because it helps you gain the positioning you want while still having access to all of your main offensive and defensive options, plus you have the advantage of reaction time because you set the situation up. Defensively, you can wavedash away from aerials and grabs to get solid punishes, and this also forces your opponent to be more thoughtful and have to make guesses with their approaches. You can also use them offensively, like when you're in a neutral situation, run straight at your opponent and as soon as you enter your opponents attack/grab range, immediately wavedash back out. In a situation like this, you're testing your opponent to see what they'll do, and your superior positioning will allow you to follow up based off of the action they take. (This is especially helpful for Roy's superior range and his counter.) In this situation, for instance...
- If they shield with a large shield, you can dash jump-cancel grab them
- If they shield with a small/diminishing shield, you can safely dtilt them and possibly get a shield poke (or other forms of shield pressure)
- If they spotdodge, you can punish it (with roy, probably dtilt or dash JC grab since fsmash might be too slow)
- If they go for a grab, you'll easily avoid it and can whiff punish (with roy, usually fsmash)
- If they jump away, you can try to chase them with a f-air/u-air or just take stage control
- If they jump towards you, you can simply wavedash back again and act from there (fsmash is often good here)
- If they jump towards you and attack, you can counter them as Roy
- if they roll away, you can chase it and grab. If they roll towards, they'll literally roll right into you and you can do whatever

And these don't even begin to cover all of the options, let alone wanting to mixup and do less predictable things. This also doesn't consider stage positioning, abusing specific character matchups, and what you would do differently based on their current percent. And this, of course, is only one vague situation in a game with infinite any situations. Ultimately, this game is incredibly complex so don't worry about not understanding everything quite yet. It definitely comes with a LOT of time, experience, and most of all, thought. Hope this helps~