Obligatory Low-tier Rage Thread

[Squaddle]

I've seen a lot of threads popping up complaining about samus's flaws, unfair matchups, etc. Instead of making a new thread, just vent out those bad feels here.

I'm usually alright with losing, like I fully don't expect samus to win every single matchup, but whenever someone falls out of a fair or upsmash that would have won me the game, or they tech the up-tilt from the ground at kill%, and then I get KO'd immediately afterwards... well, I can't help but get a bit angry.

 

[KayJay]

Samus's biggest problem is that she has no safe neutral game at low % (especially against the rushdown characters).

- Jab1 can be punished by the enemys Jab from 0% to like ~40% (character dependent)
- dtilt / bombs / homing missiles / super missiles have too much ending lag to be a safe option in the neutral against fast characters
- dash attack can be shield grabbed easily, even if you go through the enemy.

and so on.

If you look at higher tier characters like Mario and Sheik, they can spam different attacks in the neutral without beeing scared of a punishment. That's the big difference in their framedata and one of the reason that those characters are high/top.

In the low % neutral, Samus only completely safe spamable tool is pivot f-tilt, it slides backwards, low ending lag (just make sure you don't hit them with the weak hit).
Zair from midrange is also good but the damage is a joke and against a top player, follow ups are very risky (dash attack after Zair gets shieldgrabbed, dash grab after Zair is slow and will get spot dodged).

U-tilt is safe when you manage to get the hitbox out before you get hit, but it has too many starting frames, it's hard to hit good players in the neutral with it.
If the enemy gives you the space, RAR B-airs are completely safe but the rushdown characters won't give you that space.

When the enemy is about ~80%, Samus can actually shine. Jab1 becomes incredibly useful and makes such a difference. Jab1 to dtilt becomes a true combo, at higher % Jab1 forces the enemy to tumble, -> CS.

What I found out against Mario is that Full Jump > Double Jump > drop bomb > U-air while landing (be near the bomb for cover) is semi-safe in the neutral while you avoid his fireball pressure-game.
So I assume this tactic MAY BE useful also against the Top Tier rushdown characters. Needs more testing.

 

[Fluidityt]

Samus's biggest problem is that she has no safe neutral game at low % (especially against the rushdown characters).

- Jab1 can be punished by the enemys Jab from 0% to like ~40% (character dependent)
- dtilt / bombs / homing missiles / super missiles have too much ending lag to be a safe option in the neutral against fast characters
- dash attack can be shield grabbed easily, even if you go through the enemy.

and so on.

If you look at higher tier characters like Mario and Sheik, they can spam different attacks in the neutral without beeing scared of a punishment. That's the big difference in their framedata and one of the reason that those characters are high/top.

In the low % neutral, Samus only completely safe spamable tool is pivot f-tilt, it slides backwards, low ending lag (just make sure you don't hit them with the weak hit).
Zair from midrange is also good but the damage is a joke and against a top player, follow ups are very risky (dash attack after Zair gets shieldgrabbed, dash grab after Zair is slow and will get spot dodged).

U-tilt is safe when you manage to get the hitbox out before you get hit, but it has too many starting frames, it's hard to hit good players in the neutral with it.
If the enemy gives you the space, RAR B-airs are completely safe but the rushdown characters won't give you that space.

When the enemy is about ~80%, Samus can actually shine. Jab1 becomes incredibly useful and makes such a difference. Jab1 to dtilt becomes a true combo, at higher % Jab1 forces the enemy to tumble, -> CS.

What I found out against Mario is that Full Jump > Double Jump > drop bomb > U-air while landing (be near the bomb for cover) is semi-safe in the neutral while you avoid his fireball pressure-game.
So I assume this tactic MAY BE useful also against the Top Tier rushdown characters. Needs more testing.

My best strategies at low % neutral against the Speedies is to jump / roll around and play on platforms and the ledge, hoping that they will SD.

Works everytime.

 

[DungeonMaster]

- dash attack can be shield grabbed easily, even if you go through the enemy.

I'm not sure that's true KayJay - they have to drop shield to pivot right? The shield drop takes many more frames than the out of shield option. I've been grabbed out of shield from my forward facing dash attack countless times but the cross up is quite safe. Spot dodge beats the grab attempt from cross up every time.

Samus has tons of issues, we all know them, the more I play though, the more fun I'm having. My style is drifting towards a super-heavy weight fighting style - I can take a hit, I'm going to hit you back much, much harder. I'm using less f-tilt and more up-tilt. Forget totally safe, the lightweights have to be totally safe, I can take a hit. I can take quite a few and even or beat the score with one grab, one up-tilt.
Up-Air -> Up-tilt has really changed my game considerably and that only in the past few weeks. Every time I hear that fantastic "SMACK!" from the up-tilt or d-air the reward centres of my brain go off
I'm shifting focus to end the game in a handful of landed attacks rather than 10+. I'm not saying I simply walk into things, you can't, obviously, but in the risk/reward balance in zoning/CQC I'm shifting even more towards close quarters combat and it's not hindering me, it's helping.

 

[Xygonn]

I would rage, but I actually get the best results with Samus. Shield grab is so good in this game it sucks that we have a terrible shield grab. We basically make up for it with screw attack though.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

"I'm shifting focus to end the game in a handful of landed attacks rather than 10+. I'm not saying I simply walk into things, you can't, obviously, but in the risk/reward balance in zoning/CQC I'm shifting even more towards close quarters combat and it's not hindering me, it's helping."

^I've been playing Samus like this as well, and it's a lot of fun.

That said her grab is frustrating. Nothing is worse then seeing her grab animation start, but getting beat by a faster grab.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

with how much end lag Sakurai gave Samus' grab there really was no reason to add that much at the beginning too. Someone at Nintendo needs to inform that guy that Samus is no where near as good as he thinks she is.

 

[Fluidityt]

Yeah. I simply can't play a zoned samus... But I've been learning how to. I like going in. Which is why she sucks so bad, because I can pick up fox, falcon, LM, etc, and immediately play better with them up close than I do with Samus, simply because they are OP boxers. But Samus is still more fun, for god's sake I don't know why. Nothing beats screwing someone's day over with a CS. It's a hundred times more awesome than anything else in the game. And no, lucario / mewtwo don't count. I don't know why. It's just Samus. That's why.

Looking forward to trying the uair-utilt when my new controller gets here.

 

[Tumultus]

Samus's biggest problem is that she has no safe neutral game at low % (especially against the rushdown characters).

- Jab1 can be punished by the enemys Jab from 0% to like ~40% (character dependent)
- dtilt / bombs / homing missiles / super missiles have too much ending lag to be a safe option in the neutral against fast characters
- dash attack can be shield grabbed easily, even if you go through the enemy.

and so on.

If you look at higher tier characters like Mario and Sheik, they can spam different attacks in the neutral without beeing scared of a punishment. That's the big difference in their framedata and one of the reason that those characters are high/top.

In the low % neutral, Samus only completely safe spamable tool is pivot f-tilt, it slides backwards, low ending lag (just make sure you don't hit them with the weak hit).
Zair from midrange is also good but the damage is a joke and against a top player, follow ups are very risky (dash attack after Zair gets shieldgrabbed, dash grab after Zair is slow and will get spot dodged).

U-tilt is safe when you manage to get the hitbox out before you get hit, but it has too many starting frames, it's hard to hit good players in the neutral with it.
If the enemy gives you the space, RAR B-airs are completely safe but the rushdown characters won't give you that space.

When the enemy is about ~80%, Samus can actually shine. Jab1 becomes incredibly useful and makes such a difference. Jab1 to dtilt becomes a true combo, at higher % Jab1 forces the enemy to tumble, -> CS.

What I found out against Mario is that Full Jump > Double Jump > drop bomb > U-air while landing (be near the bomb for cover) is semi-safe in the neutral while you avoid his fireball pressure-game.
So I assume this tactic MAY BE useful also against the Top Tier rushdown characters. Needs more testing.

I wholeheartedly agree with all of this. In a match against a competitive player, the hardest part is the beginning! There are virtually no safe approaches when both %s are at zero; just mix ups. This is where our awesome charge shot comes in; without that beautiful move we'd be the absolute worst character in the game.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

CS is such a good beginning damage builder that Samus just plain needs in a few MUs. I find myself playing Spamus until like 30-40%, then it's reking time.

 

[LIQUID12A]

with how much end lag Sakurai gave Samus' grab there really was no reason to add that much at the beginning too. Someone at Nintendo needs to inform that guy that Samus is no where near as good as he thinks she is.

It's worth considering that said quote was said circa the Comic-Con 3DS Tournament, so it's likely that she was altered since then before release. All those tourneys before release were basically first impressions of a select portion of the cast, including Samus.

Anyway...some of my better results against players equal to my skill level are, ironically enough, done with Samus. My only real complaint is that awful grab.

 

[MegaRiff]

Extremely frustrated tonight (as in, I want to throw my controller at the TV). I keep going through everyone on my dash attack. My f-smash misses the short characters and goes right through the rest of the cast. I keep inputting sh > u-air but all I ever seem to get is u-smash. I air dodge my opponents ariels expecting to be rewarded with a punish of my own but then am greeted with a kick to the face before my attack gets to come out. Seems like the only option is to retreat to the ledge. What's worse is that I can tell some of these players are just mindlessly mashing jab while I'm trying to play smart but they are the ones that get rewarded. I try falling up-airs since that seems to be what you all recommend, but I get grabbed right in the middle of it. Also, jab1. My SHAD > ariels are always just out of reach of my opponent. I'm also regularly hit or grabbed before my dodge can even come out. D-air seems to get beaten by just about everything. I keep rolling unintentionally.

Everyone always talks about how for glory players are terrible, but I'm finding all these great players. Am I just that bad?

I really thought I was improving but after tonight, I'm not so sure. Perhaps maybe I am, and that may be why I'm starting to see all these glaring issues so clearly and it's now time to find workarounds to them.

@ DungeonMaster I like to watch your vid to help ease the frustration. So thank you for that, and everyone else with a montage. I'm curious though. I love to play offensively and you said that's what you're playing style is starting to evolve into. Do you think you'd be able to post a few vids of complete matches so we can see it in action? The montages are nice but I think we can all learn a lot more when we see those kinds of combos in context. That goes for anyone else. I'm asking you @ DungeonMaster only because you seem to have a really deep understanding of our character. And I commend you for that.


Anyways... Just need to get this off my chest.

 

[DungeonMaster]

For sure MegaRiff, I was planning on doing it at some point. Keep in mind I suffer the same issues you do, what I can definitely attest to is my win ratio has been steadily climbing since spending so much time in training mode practising the precise timings and testing hitboxes. Thank you for the compliments, I'm still very much in the learning phase, having played many fighting games in the past I know it will take me many more months at my current pace of play to peak - which is why I'm still overall positive. They did not make things easy with the rage mechanic, doing addition on the fly is kind of a weird skill, I'm convinced if they had not included rage everyone everywhere would be landing tight % dependant combos.
What do you want to see? Me kicking ass or getting my ass kicked? Or something in between like a tight match vs. a "good" opponent? A particular character matchup?

 

[LIQUID12A]

For Glory is pretty arbitrary with the kinds of players it matches you up with, though. There's no way to accurately tell what you're being matched up with.

Though it's better to just keep trying to improve despite Samus' weak tools. There is a certain merit to losing(though not in large amounts).

 

[Afro Smash]

I originally intended to start uploading some more losses but watching back over the replays I saw all the mistakes I was making and I just couldn't bare to share it cuz i honestly thought it was embarassing.

Saying that I plan to start uploading some For Glory and Anthers ladder matches to my youtube channel, and I wont edit out any losses as long as the games are good

 

[Tumultus]

Extremely frustrated tonight (as in, I want to throw my controller at the TV). I keep going through everyone on my dash attack. My f-smash misses the short characters and goes right through the rest of the cast. I keep inputting sh > u-air but all I ever seem to get is u-smash. I air dodge my opponents ariels expecting to be rewarded with a punish of my own but then am greeted with a kick to the face before my attack gets to come out. Seems like the only option is to retreat to the ledge. What's worse is that I can tell some of these players are just mindlessly mashing jab while I'm trying to play smart but they are the ones that get rewarded. I try falling up-airs since that seems to be what you all recommend, but I get grabbed right in the middle of it. Also, jab1. My SHAD > ariels are always just out of reach of my opponent. I'm also regularly hit or grabbed before my dodge can even come out. D-air seems to get beaten by just about everything. I keep rolling unintentionally.

Everyone always talks about how for glory players are terrible, but I'm finding all these great players. Am I just that bad?

I really thought I was improving but after tonight, I'm not so sure. Perhaps maybe I am, and that may be why I'm starting to see all these glaring issues so clearly and it's now time to find workarounds to them.

@ DungeonMaster I like to watch your vid to help ease the frustration. So thank you for that, and everyone else with a montage. I'm curious though. I love to play offensively and you said that's what you're playing style is starting to evolve into. Do you think you'd be able to post a few vids of complete matches so we can see it in action? The montages are nice but I think we can all learn a lot more when we see those kinds of combos in context. That goes for anyone else. I'm asking you @ DungeonMaster only because you seem to have a really deep understanding of our character. And I commend you for that.


Anyways... Just need to get this off my chest.

These are frustrations that all Samus mains can all relate to. We are with you buddy, the going is rough when our character is inherently flawed. But then I remember we have a gigantic ball of death the likes of Mewtwo/Lucario wish they had! Ours is so quick!

A piece of advice that I only just recently became aware of regarding the short hop -> up air. You have your c-stick set to smash, I imagine, and when you jump and input c-stick up (up-air) you're going to end up coming out with an up smash if you do it too quickly. That's because you're buffering a jump-cancelled up smash by doing this. If you hit the c-stick up the very immediate couple of frames after inputting jump, you're gonna cancel your jump and not get the up-air you want. It was a HUGE frustration for me because sometimes I really wanted an instant up air but it wouldn't work. I had to consciously make an effort to wait just a tiny bit after jumping to get the up-air out, and thus avoid the up-smash.

There's a way to fix this. Set your c-stick to attack and that problem will 100% disappear. You'll be amazed at how quickly your fingers can tap jump -> c-stick up and have a super quick up-air come out. I wish I had known that beforehand, because now I'm way too used to smashing with the c-stick and it will take some adaptation. Overall, I find it's an improvement to change the controls this way though! No more unintentional up-smashes (our literal worst move.)

 

[MegaRiff]

These are frustrations that all Samus mains can all relate to. We are with you buddy, the going is rough when our character is inherently flawed. But then I remember we have a gigantic ball of death the likes of Mewtwo/Lucario wish they had! Ours is so quick!

A piece of advice that I only just recently became aware of regarding the short hop -> up air. You have your c-stick set to smash, I imagine, and when you jump and input c-stick up (up-air) you're going to end up coming out with an up smash if you do it too quickly. That's because you're buffering a jump-cancelled up smash by doing this. If you hit the c-stick up the very immediate couple of frames after inputting jump, you're gonna cancel your jump and not get the up-air you want. It was a HUGE frustration for me because sometimes I really wanted an instant up air but it wouldn't work. I had to consciously make an effort to wait just a tiny bit after jumping to get the up-air out, and thus avoid the up-smash.

There's a way to fix this. Set your c-stick to attack and that problem will 100% disappear. You'll be amazed at how quickly your fingers can tap jump -> c-stick up and have a super quick up-air come out. I wish I had known that beforehand, because now I'm way too used to smashing with the c-stick and it will take some adaptation. Overall, I find it's an improvement to change the controls this way though! No more unintentional up-smashes (our literal worst move.)

I actually don't use the c-stick, just the A button. I've been trying to train myself to use the c-stick for dash attacks, I'm still getting F-smash a lot when I really mean to dash. Thanks for the advice. I may have to try it out.

For sure MegaRiff, I was planning on doing it at some point. Keep in mind I suffer the same issues you do, what I can definitely attest to is my win ratio has been steadily climbing since spending so much time in training mode practising the precise timings and testing hitboxes. Thank you for the compliments, I'm still very much in the learning phase, having played many fighting games in the past I know it will take me many more months at my current pace of play to peak - which is why I'm still overall positive. They did not make things easy with the rage mechanic, doing addition on the fly is kind of a weird skill, I'm convinced if they had not included rage everyone everywhere would be landing tight % dependant combos.
What do you want to see? Me kicking *** or getting my *** kicked? Or something in between like a tight match vs. a "good" opponent? A particular character matchup?

I think just having some good matches that we can all learn from. I was thinking of starting a YouTube channel so I can upload some matches myself. They'd be recorded form my phone as I have no capture card, and don't ever plan on getting one. But yeah, wins or losses are not my concern. It's more about choosing this match because of x y and z, where x, y, and z teach us all something new, remind us of things we seem to forget, explanations as to why this worked or didn't work etc.

Anyways, I am feeling much better than I was the other night. I've been getting quite a few wins as of late, so that's always nice. I decided recently to play defensively, and it was an eye opener. I never realized how defensive everybody plays. It's like we are all just waiting... dashing, shielding, jumping, dashing, shielding, and nothing's happening. It annoys me that that is the play style that is most rewarded. I think maybe I was being over aggressive before. everyone was just waiting for me to leave myself open. I also decided to stop using all projectiles for the time being. It has forced me to become much more careful and be very conscious of the decisions I make. Helps to improve my melee game. It's also helped me learn how to space better.

But combos, and tech aside, I think we are all going to get the most mileage out of mixing up our gameplay. We also need to find a way to train ourselves to look for opponents patterns as quickly as possible. I tend to play reactionary and usually forget to look for those patterns. So yeah, if they don't know what we are going to do, and we know what they are going to do, the match up will always be in our favor, regardless of combos/tech etc. (to an extent of course).

 

[Hapajin]

After recently playing Melee and PM quite a bit, I've been a bit frustrated with Samus not necessarily because I think she's bad, but because the other versions are so fantastic. I love all her movement options in Melee and PM and every one of Samus' move in those games seems useful in one scenario or another. Going back to Wii U, she seems limited and stiff (which seems to contradict her super sleek and snazzy design) and I feel like I'm using the same moves/combos over and over to get the most effective use out of Wii U Samus, wishing she was more fluid and flexible like the Melee and PM versions. I would never consider dropping her as my main (our history goes too deep) but its tough seeing her limited like this in comparison to other games.

 

[Squaddle]

It's such a nuisance how the sex kick completely negates your missiles and hits you too, how your super missiles clank against MUCH weaker projectiles, and how hitting someone offstage with a super missile at 140% doesn't kill... but I keep using them anyway because its hardwired into my playstyle at this point : /

 

[C0rvus]

So I've been playing around with Samus, and I like her a lot. She suits my playstyle I think. I enjoy being able to zone, but also go in when I have to. Zair is great, Charge Shot is great, Up Air is super good. I can see why this character isn't up to par, and I am hoping for buffs, but I am not fully convinced she is unviable. I plan to take her to the next tournament I attend and see if the players there can't convince me to drop her.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

About the biggest thing I have an issue with is people telling me use someone not in low tier. I want to say most of it is kidding around but it's still heavily annoying.

 

[MegaRiff]

Ok so, in an effort to keep my playstyle from becoming one dimensional, I recently decided within the last hour to play as offensive as I possibly can. I don't know how many of you have tried this but you should. It was a hell of a lot of fun. And it was surprisingly successful! I'm not entirely sure why, but the first reason that comes to mind is that the opponents mindset goes immediately to "up against a spammer, time to get close" and the when they see me run in haphazardly they kind of get thrown off guard.

Now I wasn't expecting to win, and that really wasn't the point, but I was winning. It could be said that these were probably not the best players I was facing, which may be true, but I was still a bit surprised at my success rate. I was quite careless, challenging things I wouldn't normally dare to challenge, and yes I got punished, but I also managed to win the challenge more often than I expected. My entire goal was to make them feel like they needed space. And it was glorious. It felt good to be the one chasing the entire match. I was still using my CS and missles and bombs and whatnot, but they were kinda just sprinkled in here and there. And that Zair. They won't see it coming when you play this way. I was also spacing when I needed to, but it was entirely a rushdown approach.

This probably isn't a viable tournament strategy, but I know when playing in this way, you will be putting yourself in situations that will surely happen in a tournament setting at some point, and having this experience wont get you so uncomfortable and nervous when the situation happens to come around.

Just thought I'd share with you my evening with smash. Try it. Don't think about winning, or losing. Just think about murdering... at all costs (figure of speech guys!).

[I didn't know where else to post this, and didn't feel it needed a new thread.]

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

I play rushdown samus all the time. It's definitely a good mixup between being too defensive. Tournament setting or not, it's definitely a viable way to play her. Samus has a few good shield pressure options, even up close. And not only is she great at intercepting attacks and advances, but she's good at intercepting retreats as well. That dash attack can catch rolls awfully fast. You just have to pay close attention to when opponents start being more patient and are shielding more.

 

[Xeze]

Samus is not as bad as people think. I play her sometimes and getting those surprise kills with a charge shot is so satisfying. Not to mention when people go like "but she is supposed to be bottom tier".

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I think she is good. Top tiers are definitely an uphill battle, but still winnable.

Also, people need to stop clinging to that old misconception that Sakurai thinks she is the best. Consider the circumstances and the time, as well that that wasn't exactly what he said.