Now that Daisy's turnip is recently discovered, here's the updated clone tier-list

[QuintonShark8714]

Clone Tier-list (from most unique to most laziest):
(arguably a clone)
(look above)

















Now you may be asking, "why is Daisy higher than Richter?"
I can explain why (and not its not just because "THE VISUALS AND ANIMATIONS ARE DIFFERENT!!!" or my Daisy bais)

Daisy has 2 differences (1 of which is barely noticable), whiling Richter only has 1

with Daisy, there's the recently discovered Turnip different being her turnips are designed for combos, whiling Peach's kills earlier, and that her hurtbox is different from Peach's, bigger when she's running, idling and attacking (IIRC) whiling smaller when she's floating

and as for Richter, the only he has is Holy Water doing Aura damage rather than Fire damage, which leads to different interactions with Olimar's blue and red Pikmin, as well as explosive items like Snake's granades

 

[MarioMeteor]

You can’t even argue that Wolf is a clone. The only move he has that’s really, truly cloned from Fox is his Final Smash. Same with Falco and Luigi. There’s a reason why the act of de-cloning a character is called “Luigifying” them.

 

[DelugeFGC]

A fair few characters you've listed aren't clones or echo fighters.. at all. Wolf being the most outlandish choice I see you've made.

Like I get Ganon still has 4/5 of the same Aerials as Falcon and some similar specials, but they all work so differently.. on top of Ganon's speed and weight differences, he plays NOTHING like Falcon. A lazy echo / clone example would be something like Dark Pit or Daisy as there's little reason they couldn't be skins. Falco is also no longer in any way shape or form a clone/echo.

Lucina's echo differences from Marth literally make her a WAY more viable character than him, Young Link plays TOTALLY different in playstyle to Toon and Adult.. have you even played any of these characters my dude? Luigi, Pichu, Young Link, Ganon, Isabelle, Lucas, Doc and Falco aren't echo fighters / clones AT ALL really.

 

[Opossum]

A fair few characters you've listed aren't clones or echo fighters.. at all. Wolf being the most outlandish choice I see you've made.

Like I get Ganon still has 4/5 of the same Aerials as Falcon and some similar specials, but they all work so differently.. on top of Ganon's speed and weight differences, he plays NOTHING like Falcon. A lazy echo / clone example would be something like Dark Pit or Daisy as there's little reason they couldn't be skins. Falco is also no longer in any way shape or form a clone/echo.

Lucina's echo differences from Marth literally make her a WAY more viable character than him, Young Link plays TOTALLY different in playstyle to Toon and Adult.. have you even played any of these characters my dude? Luigi, Pichu, Young Link, Ganon, Isabelle, Lucas, Doc and Falco aren't echo fighters / clones AT ALL really.

I'd argue Dark Pit's arrows make a major difference between him and Pit this time around, actually.

 

[Just a random scrub]

You can’t even argue that Wolf is a clone. The only move he has that’s really, truly cloned from Fox is his Final Smash. Same with Falco and Luigi. There’s a reason why the act of de-cloning a character is called “Luigifying” them.

Falco's still absolutely a semi, though. He has a lot of new animations and different moves, but he still clearly carries a lot of Fox's DNA, and many of his standard attacks/specials are still similar to Fox's.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Falco's still absolutely a semi, though. He has a lot of new animations and different moves, but he still clearly carries a lot of Fox's DNA, and many of his standard attacks/specials are still similar to Fox's.

Similar in animation, sure, but completely different in function, and that’s what makes a character a clone. None of the moves Falco has that are derived from Fox are used in the same way as him, and not to mention the fact that the bird is also pretty radically different in terms of stats.

If there’s a term that means more than a semi-clone but less than a unique character, then that’s what I would use to describe Falco.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Clone Tier-list (from most unique to most laziest):
(arguably a clone)
(look above)

None of these are real clones. Ganondorf too. They all have major differences in speed, weight, moves, hotboxes, combos, and/or hurtboxes.

Falco's still absolutely a semi, though. He has a lot of new animations and different moves, but he still clearly carries a lot of Fox's DNA, and many of his standard attacks/specials are still similar to Fox's.

Bull****. Almost all of Falco's moves are different than Fox's in some way.
Neutral B: Fox shoot fast lasers with no knockback. Falco shoots slower ones with slight knockback.
Side B: Fox travels farther, but Falco spikes in midair
Down B: Falco's shine is a projectile
Up B: Fox travles farther but Falco's is a multi hit.
Some notable differences:
Nair: Fox does "the kick" and Falco has a multi hit spin
Uair: Fox does two powerful directly upwards kicks, Falco does on swift angled kick
Dair: Falco has a spike, Fox has a multi hit
D-tilt: Fox does a swift tail slap, Falco does a slower but much more powerful one.
U-tilt: Fox does a very fast upwards kick, Falco does a two hit upwards slap (basically the same for u-smash)
Falco really can't be classified as a clone anymore.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Falco is probably the character furthest away from his original echo of the 'Luigified' characters at this point. The only moves he has that come off like an echo move on him is Up B and DAir, and even they're quite different.

 

[Arthur97]

I'd argue that Ganondorf is still a semi-clone. Animations should be taken into account on some level. Not to mention it's still highly derivative.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Similar in animation, sure, but completely different in function, and that’s what makes a character a clone. None of the moves Falco has that are derived from Fox are used in the same way as him, and not to mention the fact that the bird is also pretty radically different in terms of stats.

If there’s a term that means more than a semi-clone but less than a unique character, then that’s what I would use to describe Falco.

None of these are real clones. Ganondorf too. They all have major differences in speed, weight, moves, hotboxes, combos, and/or hurtboxes.

Bull****. Almost all of Falco's moves are different than Fox's in some way.
Neutral B: Fox shoot fast lasers with no knockback. Falco shoots slower ones with slight knockback.
Side B: Fox travels farther, but Falco spikes in midair
Down B: Falco's shine is a projectile
Up B: Fox travles farther but Falco's is a multi hit.
Some notable differences:
Nair: Fox does "the kick" and Falco has a multi hit spin
Uair: Fox does two powerful directly upwards kicks, Falco does on swift angled kick
Dair: Falco has a spike, Fox has a multi hit
D-tilt: Fox does a swift tail slap, Falco does a slower but much more powerful one.
U-tilt: Fox does a very fast upwards kick, Falco does a two hit upwards slap (basically the same for u-smash)
Falco really can't be classified as a clone anymore.

These are all correct. But here's the thing. Even though he has a lot of different moves (off the top of my head, different neutral combo, u-tilt, f-smash, u-smash, every aerial except down air), the rest of his tools are still clearly derived from Fox. They're very different in functionality, but that doesn't change the fact that they were lifted from Fox. Falco's lasers are very different in functionality, but it was still very clearly derived from Fox's Blaster. Same applies to the rest of his shared moves. He has very different physics too, yeah, but this is no different than other semi-clones like Toon Link, Roy, and Ganondorf. None of the things either of you mentioned really are things I can't say about most of the other semi clones. If Ganondorf is still considered a semi clone, then there's no reason Falco shouldn't be either. So bottom line, saying he's on the same level of unique as Wolf is just blatantly untrue.

Falco is probably the character furthest away from his original echo of the 'Luigified' characters at this point. The only moves he has that come off like an echo move on him is Up B and DAir, and even they're quite different.

Yeah, he's pretty far removed from Fox, but I'd say that Luigi and Ganondorf have split off even farther (though Luigi probably doesn't even qualify as a semi anymore).

 

[DelugeFGC]

Ganon still has 4/5 five of the same aerials as Falcon (animation wise and hitbox type wise), two specials that are near identical and a few other things. He's on the verge of still feeling like an echo to me.

 

[JiggyNinja]

Go back to the way "clone" was used in Melee, it was entirely based on animation similarity. Ganondorf was a near 100% clone of Captain Falcon, because everything they did (except Fair) used the exact same animations. Sure they had vastly different speed, weight, and hitbox properties, but those are just numbers that are trivial to adjust. The fact that they had vastly different competitive viability and playstyles is simply irrelevant to the fact that they were clones. It was the same with Marth/Roy and Fox/Falco.

I'd argue Dark Pit's arrows make a major difference between him and Pit this time around, actually.

The difference in effectiveness doesn't matter. It's the exact same attack, just with some numbers tweaked (like damage and turning radius). That is what's been used to define a clone in a fighting game for basically ever.

Lucina's echo differences from Marth literally make her a WAY more viable character than him,

Viability is irrelevant. Literally everything about Lucina is a complete copy of Marth except for her hitbox properties. She is a clone.

I'd argue that Ganondorf is still a semi-clone. Animations should be taken into account on some level. Not to mention it's still highly derivative.

Not just "on some level", animations are THE thing that determines clones. It's not as simple in Smash anymore as many former clones have gotten progressively differentiated, muddying the waters a lot. There can be no argument that Fox and Falco were clones in SSBM. All their animations were the same, the only differences were in their numerical properties (jump height, blaster damage/hitstun/RoF, shine knockback and launch angle, etc). They've become less clonely since several of Falco's attacks got different animations, but there's still significant similarities between them.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Oh boy.. whoosh. I wasn't saying she wasn't a clone, simply using her of an example of how echo fighters can be viable characters that don't hurt the game.

Ganon isn't a clone anymore. Doesn't matter how many times you or anyone else says he is. He objectively isn't. Also animations are by no means the 'echo factor' 100% as you say, either. There's more to it than that.

 

[JiggyNinja]

Ganon isn't a clone. Doesn't matter how many times you say he is. He objectively isn't.

Note the past tense in my post. I was talking about Ganondorf in Melee, where he absolutely was a clone. He has become much less of a clone since then, but he still shares 4/5 of his aerials and 3/4 of his specials with Captain Falcon. It's still pretty easy to recognize the similarities between them.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Ganon still feels wrong though, I'm in 100% agreement with anyone who believes that. He's not an echo.. but he is. You feel me?

I just hate the arguments I keep seeing related to the subject. officially he is no longer an echo.. but in practice?

 

[JiggyNinja]

Ganon still feels wrong though, I'm in 100% agreement with anyone who believes that. He's not an echo.. but he is. You feel me?

I just hate the arguments I keep seeing related to the subject. officially he is no longer an echo.. but in practice?

He's about a half clone. Even if he still has some similar animations to Captain Falcon, all of their properties are so different that they are two totally different kinds of fun.

"Clone" was never an official designation anyway until Ultimate's Echo Fighters, so it's always been informal. I see no reason to change that just because Sakurai decided to formalize the Echo Fighters into an official designation (don't let The Man tell you how to think!). Roy is not officially an Echo Fighter of Marth and there has been some differentiation, but I still consider the two of them very clony which is why the FE cast is a bit of a disappointment to me. Having a character and his former clone each get a clone is a little ridiculous.

 

[Xelrog]

And then the thread gets derailed into an argument about semantics.

(That means the definitions of words, boys and girls, which is probably not the intended topic here.)

 

[KenboCalrissian]

There aren't enough people defending Lucas here. Lucas plays entirely differently than Ness, being more effective in your face with throw combos while Ness tends to bait and punish. I don't know a single person who plays both characters - they cater to extremely different playstyles, and that's more than I can say even for Falco (who does play differently, but not so much that a Falco player can't also effectively play Fox).

 

[DelugeFGC]

While I certainly do not view Lucas as an 'echo' per-say, he's still very.. Ness-like. I think more could've been done to differentiate the two characters and he does feel a little lazy.. by no means is he the biggest offender though.

 

[Arthur97]

Ganon is still very derivative as even stuff like his tilts are still based off of Falcons even if they are different now. It isn't Ganondorf. It's some weird evolution of that clone in Melee.

Lucas I think is like Wolf just maybe a bit more similar. Most of their moves are completely different with the exception of forward smash, and the specials. Magnet was made a bit more similar though since Ness' now has a hitbox. Down tilt also seems to function fairly similarly despite different animations. Physics are also pretty close.

 

[Xelrog]

Ganon is still very derivative as even stuff like his tilts are still based off of Falcons even if they are different now. It isn't Ganondorf. It's some weird evolution of that clone in Melee.

While yes it is a weird evolution of a clone, you can't really say "it isn't Ganondorf" because... well, he's a blank slate. He's got nothing. He's different in every game and in every game he does very little, combat or otherwise.

Going off his personality, I think the battle mage bruiser thing he's got going on could not possibly be more fitting. As a fan of the character, Smash Dorf has more character going for him than he ever had in Ocarina.

 

[Arthur97]

While yes it is a weird evolution of a clone, you can't really say "it isn't Ganondorf" because... well, he's a blank slate. He's got nothing. He's different in every game and in every game he does very little, combat or otherwise.

Going off his personality, I think the battle mage bruiser thing he's got going on could not possibly be more fitting. As a fan of the character, Smash Dorf has more character going for him than he ever had in Ocarina.

Except he's an active combatant. He has plenty to pull from unlike Zelda.

That's your opinion as weird as it may be. Not like he's using much magic except for style. Ganondorf is almost as conniving as he is strong and just as arrogant. He isn't just a grunting mass of muscle.

 

[DelugeFGC]

While Ganondorf hasn't been wholely consistently throughout the Zelda games he's appeared in.. neither have a lot of the other characters, namely ZELDA herself.

So that said, I don't feel saying he has a 'blank slate' works at all.

 

[Arthur97]

While Ganondorf hasn't been wholely consistently throughout the Zelda games he's appeared in.. neither have a lot of the other characters, namely ZELDA herself.

So that said, I don't feel saying he has a 'blank slate' works at all.

I think Dorf works if you look at the whole. Like in WW, everything he had worked to conquer had been buried beneath the ocean so he became a bit more tempered as he bided his time.

Or how he was rendered practically mindless in the Oracle games which explains Zelda I Ganon.

 

[Xelrog]

While Ganondorf hasn't been wholely consistently throughout the Zelda games he's appeared in.. neither have a lot of the other characters, namely ZELDA herself.

That's because Zelda and Link are always a new and different Zelda and Link. Ganondorf is always the same Ganondorf, no death or reincarnation involved.

Sure, he schemes, but he's hardly some sneaky rogue character. He's the triforce of POWER. He takes what he wants brutally and without hesitation. He doesn't infiltrate the royal guard and bide his time until he can slit the king's throat. He amasses an army and RAIDS the castle town, taking no prisoners. He's all about shows of power, and yes, he's extremely arrogant about it. That's why no-respect magic-fist-in-your-face Ganondorf is perfect for him, at least in his Ocarina age.

EDIT: k I just realized we're way off topic--er, what was the topic again? Is there anything to talk about here?

 

[Arthur97]

That's because Zelda and Link are always a new and different Zelda and Link. Ganondorf is always the same Ganondorf, no death or reincarnation involved.

Sure, he schemes, but he's hardly some sneaky rogue character. He's the triforce of POWER. He takes what he wants brutally and without hesitation. He doesn't infiltrate the royal guard and bide his time until he can slit the king's throat. He amasses an army and RAIDS the castle town, taking no prisoners. He's all about shows of power, and yes, he's extremely arrogant about it. That's why no-respect magic-fist-in-your-face Ganondorf is perfect for him, at least in his Ocarina age.

EDIT: k I just realized we're way off topic--er, what was the topic again? Is there anything to talk about here?

He played Zant like a puppet, he feigned loyalty to the king while working to seize power for himself, he played Link into drawing the Master Sword, freeing his powers as well as to gather the Triforce of Courage for him. He's no mindless brute.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

While I certainly do not view Lucas as an 'echo' per-say, he's still very.. Ness-like. I think more could've been done to differentiate the two characters and he does feel a little lazy.. by no means is he the biggest offender though.

When you compare a good Ness player to a good Lucas player, that misconception fades away fast. On the surface, you're right - Lucas has a lot of moves that are derivative of Ness's. However, their playstyles are so totally different that you have to put them in different categories. Their styles differ more than Fox/Falco, Mario/Luigi, or Falcon/Ganon.

There's nothing lazy about Lucas, at least not today - maybe in Brawl that was true, but not now. He's one of the most slept-on characters on the roster because it's difficult to use him effectively (and that's usually because people try to play him like Ness)

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not even sure how lazy he was in Brawl. I don't think he's had a totally revamped move. Their up air's are different now because Ness got one, but otherwise, his actual moves are mostly the same. Actually, I think 4 may have been his most cloney since it seemed to save time they used some of Ness' animations.

 

[DelugeFGC]

When you compare a good Ness player to a good Lucas player, that misconception fades away fast. On the surface, you're right - Lucas has a lot of moves that are derivative of Ness's. However, their playstyles are so totally different that you have to put them in different categories. Their styles differ more than Fox/Falco, Mario/Luigi, or Falcon/Ganon.

There's nothing lazy about Lucas, at least not today - maybe in Brawl that was true, but not now. He's one of the most slept-on characters on the roster because it's difficult to use him effectively (and that's usually because people try to play him like Ness)

I've played a lot of Ness and a lot of Lucas. Lucas is an easy example of a lazy echo. I know his differences, he's still lazy. Fox / Falco aren't the same.. at all really. Falcon and Ganon only share aerial animations and some specials and Mario / Luigi are totally different. Lucas / Ness aren't, they're by far the most similar out of the group you mentioned. Straight up NONE of the characters you mentioned come close to having the same playstyle, the hell are you even talking about anyway?

PARTS, of Ness / Lucas are different, others aren't. They have extremely similar neutrals. They have extremely similar disadvantage and ledge phases. The main differences come in during advantage and edge. They do not have 'vastly different playstyles' at all despite their differences. PK Fire Launches instead of traps, PK Freeze over PK Flash and the tether are the primary differences between the two. I know there's more, quite a bit, but none of it makes them play different. Period.

If you want an example of REAL echoes with variable playstyles, compare Marth / Lucina or Roy / Chrom. They play nothing alike, despite sharing many of the same moves, entirely different spacing game on ALL of them.

 

[JiggyNinja]

I've played a lot of Ness and a lot of Lucas. Lucas is an easy example of a lazy echo.

What the hell are you talking about.? They have different Smash attacks, different aerials, different tilts, and different grab. The only thing even remotely similar is the appearance of the specials, and even those all have different properties!

If you want an example of REAL echoes with variable playstyles, compare Marth / Lucina or Roy / Chrom. They play nothing alike, despite sharing many of the same moves, entirely different spacing game on ALL of them.

Are you trolling? You must be trolling because I literally cannot imagine how someone could possibly call Lucas a lazy echo and then praise the Fire Emblem characters for their variety.

 

[DelugeFGC]

What the hell are you talking about.? They have different Smash attacks, different aerials, different tilts, and different grab. The only thing even remotely similar is the appearance of the specials, and even those all have different properties!


Are you trolling? You must be trolling because I literally cannot imagine how someone could possibly call Lucas a lazy echo and then praise the Fire Emblem characters for their variety.

No I'm not trolling, I actually look at how characters play through things like neutral and adv/disadv and factor it in that way.

I even put this in my post, not sure why you willingly cut it out of the quote, perhaps because it didn't fit the narrative. I'm aware of their many other differences, but in the end is doesn't effect their neutral, disadvantage or ledge phases much at ALL thus not having a heavy impact on how they play.

Not base it on literally nothing important fangirling over special attacks and animations that don't mean a damned thing. Are you trolling? Whoosh, though. Even though I was partly serious about the FE characters having different gameplay to one another despite what droolers say on first glance, the main point of me saying that AND saying it THAT way was to make a joke.

 

[Arthur97]

Even if they did play the same, it's hard to justify calling them clones if almost every move they have is different.

 

[Rhus]

Falco's still absolutely a semi, though. He has a lot of new animations and different moves, but he still clearly carries a lot of Fox's DNA, and many of his standard attacks/specials are still similar to Fox's.

Falco's attacks that are completely different from Fox's in animations, hitboxes, and characteristics:
Nair
Uair
Fair
Bair
Jab
Utilt
Usmash
Fsmash
Dthrow

Falco's attacks that are completely different in hitboxes and characteristics:
Dair
Uthrow
BThrow
Blaster
Reflector
Dtilt

Falco's attacks that can be considered "clone" attacks for similar animations and usage:
Ftilt
Dsmash
Fire bird
Fthrow
Phantasm

The only moves in here I would truly classify as clone moves are Ftilt, Dsmash, and Fthrow but tons of characters have very similar attacks to these anyway.

Attribute differences:

• Falco runs and walks much slower
• Falco jumps much higher
• Falco doesn't fall as fast
• Falco is heavier

Sound like a clone? I hope not.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Falco and Fox DAir share a very similar / same animation despite one being a meteor and the other a multihit. Forward tilt is very similar. DSmash is flat out the same, Up B is the same, as are one or two throws I think.

Other than that all the animations are different, but more importantly Falco doesn't play at all like Fox does. When you play Falco, you have far less tools to get by in neutral and you're going to have to rely on punishes / feints more than anything, and once you win neutral you best have execution / lab time to perform his combos to capitalize or the match is gonna be a hard time. Falco wasn't done a lot of justice in Ult. Fox is totally different, Fox has a fairly oppressive neutral and has some of the best stage play of the higher / top tier characters, but he's not heavily focused on long strings requiring perfect execution either.

 

[Arthur97]

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't Fire Bird a multi-hit move compared to Fire Fox being single hit?

 

[DelugeFGC]

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't Fire Bird a multi-hit move compared to Fire Fox being single hit?

Yes, it also gains less distance.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Falco's attacks that are completely different from Fox's in animations, hitboxes, and characteristics:
Nair
Uair
Fair
Bair
Jab
Utilt
Usmash
Fsmash
Dthrow

Falco's attacks that are completely different in hitboxes and characteristics:
Dair
Uthrow
BThrow
Blaster
Reflector
Dtilt

Falco's attacks that can be considered "clone" attacks for similar animations and usage:
Ftilt
Dsmash
Fire bird
Fthrow
Phantasm

The only moves in here I would truly classify as clone moves are Ftilt, Dsmash, and Fthrow but tons of characters have very similar attacks to these anyway.

Attribute differences:

• Falco runs and walks much slower
• Falco jumps much higher
• Falco doesn't fall as fast
• Falco is heavier

Sound like a clone? I hope not.

I already adressed this:

These are all correct. But here's the thing. Even though he has a lot of different moves (off the top of my head, different neutral combo, u-tilt, f-smash, u-smash, every aerial except down air), the rest of his tools are still clearly derived from Fox. They're very different in functionality, but that doesn't change the fact that they were lifted from Fox. Falco's lasers are very different in functionality, but it was still very clearly derived from Fox's Blaster. Same applies to the rest of his shared moves. He has very different physics too, yeah, but this is no different than other semi-clones like Toon Link, Roy, and Ganondorf. None of the things either of you mentioned really are things I can't say about most of the other semi clones. If Ganondorf is still considered a semi clone, then there's no reason Falco shouldn't be either. So bottom line, saying he's on the same level of unique as Wolf is just blatantly untrue.

 

[DelugeFGC]

A majority of Falco's moves in terms of both properties AND animation are completely unique to him now, which isn't what your point addresses at all. Origins mean nothing, they've shifted drastically and they're no more alike than Wolf and Fox are. They're unique to the point of being from the same series, but they have shifted apart radically in design. Very little Falco currently has was lifted from Fox as you claim. DAir shares a similar animation, but the moves have totally different properties and always have. Up B varies between the two, but has the same sort of animation and such. Otherwise it's a smash attack and a single throw, everything else Falco has is pretty much entirely unique to him and not in any way derivative of Fox's moves which all have a different focus, hitbox and animation.

That characters don't play anything alike, the moves they DO share (which is FEW overall) animations and such on have very different functions and everything about Falco is so differen't to Fox in terms of intent / focus on his kit. They have totally different neutrals, not just from a meta but also from a design perspective. They also have very different advantage and ledge / edge phases. When you play Falco in Ult, you very easily forget he ever had anything to do with Fox in terms of design because the only thing that really sticks out is Up B. Sure, a handful (keyword is handful) of other moves share animations, but Up B is the only one that sticks out to the point of making you think "Oh, that's from Fox." at this point.

 

[Arthur97]

Okay, but Ness and Lucas share even fewer moves than Fox and Falco.

 

[Just a random scrub]

A majority of Falco's moves in terms of both properties AND animation are completely unique to him now, which isn't what your point addresses at all.

You mean just like Ganondorf and nearly every other semi, who most people agree are semis? Also, notice I'm not saying echo, I'm saying semi-clone. I'm not saying Falco is a straight up copy of Fox at all like you guys seem to think.

Origins mean nothing, they've shifted drastically and they're no more alike than Wolf and Fox are. They're unique to the point of being from the same series, but they have shifted apart radically in design. Very little Falco currently has was lifted from Fox as you claim. DAir shares a similar animation, but the moves have totally different properties and always have. Up B varies between the two, but has the same sort of animation and such. Otherwise it's a smash attack and a single throw, everything else Falco has is pretty much entirely unique to him and not in any way derivative of Fox's moves which all have a different focus, hitbox and animation.

The only moves Wolf has that look/act anything like Fox's are neutral air, pummel, special moves and final Smash (and a lot of the similarities in their specials are by name only). Falco, meanwhile, still has a similar looking jump animation, walk animation, Jab 1 and 2, forward tilt, down tilt, dash attack, down smash, down air, pummel, forward throw, back throw, up throw (the blaster functionality for the throws is different, but the initial throw in back and up throw are identical), and Falco's special moves are modified versions of Fox's. Modified enough to make him play differently, but still modified versions of Fox's. That's at least half of his moveset right there. Yeah, yeah, many of them have different functionality, but look at Fox and Falco doing these moves side to side, and it's still blatantly obvious those moves are altered versions of Fox's. Yes, altered enough to make them play completely differently, but again, that applies to literally almost every other semi clone in the entire series. Nothing y'all mentioned dosen't apply to Ganondorf and most of the other semi clones. Falco's the definition of a semi-clone. He's one of he first that comes to mind when I think "Semi."And he's a great example of one done right. But still a mother ****ing semi. I don't see how you could look at his animations and not see where Fox's influence came in.

Animations wise, the only moveset difference Falco received in Smash Ultimate that he didn't already have in previous games was his new down throw. Literally every other difference you listed here was already present in Smash 4, where everybody agrees that Falco was a semi. Meanwhile, some other semis like Ganondorf got noticeably more decloning than Falco did in the transition between games, but he's still considered a semi-clone by basically everybody. If Ganon, Roy, Toon Link, basically every other semi clone is considered still a semi (they are,), then Falco is one too. End of story.

Just sayin' man, Falco is still listed as a semi-clone on SmashWiki in Ultimate, so it's not like I'm getting this out my ass.