KILLA.FOR.CASH.
Smash Champion
im too stupid to understand anything that drgn or delphiki says lol
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Nova Complex Crew Challenge
- Thread starter Delphiki
- Start date
NintendoKing
Smash Champion
Uhhhhh... changing from sheik to zelda IN A CREW BATTLE is just funny as hell, I'm sorry loloololol. Let me switch from a good character to a ****ty character, that'll show em who's boss LO:ILOLOPLOLOLOLLPP.
Tomi-X
Smash Lord
LoLwTfPwNeD@NK
Delphiki
Smash Champion
Seriously though. That's like picking Luigi when you have a Fox. *dies*
tyderiumDS
Smash Journeyman
I say it should just be agreed upon before any crew battle takes place. Personally, I think it would be like banning a move. I know that as falco, I really wouldn't be happy to have my down-b banned. But it's a gray area. If Pauk wants a rematch, I want to play you guys. Maybe we could set another crew battle or smashfest up on spring break. I'm sure I can get some time off.
NintendoKing
Smash Champion
Teamscape needs to get in on this.
SuperRad
Smash Master
hey DRGN:
why are zelda and sheik listed separately on the tier list?
LOLZ OWNT!
M I RITE?
OR
M I RITE?
why are zelda and sheik listed separately on the tier list?
LOLZ OWNT!
M I RITE?
OR
M I RITE?
HyugaRicdeau
Baller/Shot-caller
Actually he didn't exactly 3 stock Arash. Arash had 3 stock to start with, and Kawn came in with 4. Kawn only lost 1 to Arash's 3, but if Arash had another stock perhaps he'd have taken another of Kawn's.
Down + B is a move. Sheik players use it all the time to recover.
I think the only question is if Sheik/Zelda is "one character," then how come Zelda isn't banned from LTT's, and if you can just ban her down B, why can't you do that elsewhere?
Down + B is a move. Sheik players use it all the time to recover.
I think the only question is if Sheik/Zelda is "one character," then how come Zelda isn't banned from LTT's, and if you can just ban her down B, why can't you do that elsewhere?
Delphiki
Smash Champion
Well obviously this is just a semantic issue. So I see no point to argue about it.
If the crew we are facing doesn't want DRGN switching they should let us know. I'll make mention in the first post.
If the crew we are facing doesn't want DRGN switching they should let us know. I'll make mention in the first post.
SuperRad: Because you can use them independently and is the most common practice. Although I believe she's a better character if you use her in her entirety (but still, it's completely up to the player if they want to use only Zelda or only Sheik). While I see that as a legitimate reason, what I see as more likely was that the SBR probably -understandably- considered Zelda and Sheik as separate, and if they didn't, still recognized that they could be used independently and so separated them. But if it was common practice for people to actually use both, who knows, maybe there would be a character listed as 'Zelda/Sheik' on the tier list too. But obviously that would never happen since it is in fact so uncommon.
The abovementioned fact that they can be used seperately is why Zelda is allowed in LTT, because Zelda by herself is bottom tier. And one of the points of a low tier tournament is being able to use weaker characters in tournament that you otherwise wouldn't likely be able to. Whereas on the other hand, Singles, Doubles, MM, & Crew Battles are all "all out" kinds of situations, in which you are (or at least most people usually) going 100%, and should be using all abilities at your disposal, all aspects, potential, & capabilities that you have the know how to use effectively with your character. And Zelda is part of Sheik's potential & capabilities and vice versa. Just like desynching to utilize Nana (a "hidden" aspect), Zelda/Sheik transforming is to utilize another part of herself.
Okay, so i've addressed the topic of why they're listed seperately on the tier list, why Zelda has entrance to Low Tier Tournament, and uncessfully conveyed why you should be able to use both Zelda & Sheik together for anything outside Low Tier... The MOST COMMON argument against being able to change (from noobs and experienced players alike) is that it messes up counterpics. This, to say it bluntly, is the fault of the counterpicker, by assuming that the two aren't going to or shouldn't both play a part in the fight and that only one will/should be used. This seems to me to be brought on by a naive, pre-programmed set of laws & ideals of what they think things should be like or what's fair, and an expect others to instinctively follow them. (But why should that group of people be the ones to decide the matter? They're not even the ones who play the character in question.) I see this naive perception of cheapness as a result of the combination of something for the most part unprecedented (the transform mechanic) along with something unfamiliar (the application of somebody actually readily using it in combat). It's new, and some consider it 'too good' or "cheap". There is a fear or concern of a new application they think is cheap, and a want to do away with it instead of learn what to do against it, a feeling of the like that shouldn't exist in high levels of play. For, as good players, you should know that many 'good' tactics/strategies (if you want to call this that), when first discovered or used are often regarded as "cheap". But that should never stop the developement and progression of what's possible. In a healthy metagame: good technique begets a countering good technique, counters beget counters, and what is considered cheap one day is wholesome and fair the next. That's what progression is all about; if you deny the use of something, it only denys your own potential, for you will never develope the strength to fight it or gain what was learned along the path for that strength, and will forever live in the dark. There is almost nothing in this game that's so good that it's banned. The progression i'm aiming for here today is more of an understanding and realization that, in a simple way of putting it: Zelda is to Sheik as Marth's Fair is to Marth. Zelda is an integrable extension and in some cases a compliment to Sheik's game. I would guess I use her around 20-30% of the total time of all matches (figuring both: fights that I use one or the other in, and fights that I use both in (I would use her more, but she's still only bottom tier by herself)), imagine taking away such a large percent of her game. It's like a Falco that's told "From now on you're only allowed to use your neutral-b half as much as you have been."
Rather than considering Zelda and Sheik as seperate characters, of which the opponent will chose one and stick to, instead they should regard them as two parts to an ultimate whole, and recognize the threats each has to offer and go from there (they can also consider who they're fighting against to further evaluate the specific threats they'll be facing) . The only argument I see against what i'm saying is people maybe then thinking Zelda/Sheik is unfair because she would be good against too many characters. But consider who sheik is 'good against', then factor in how many extra match-ups Zelda contributes to Zelda/Sheik as a whole, and you end up looking at a number that's right there with the average number of the other top/high tier characters. So how much good does that really do? Does it really make that much of a difference?
And Delphiki, I don't see it as a issue of semantics.
Personally, I don't see why most people have a problem with it anyway. The combination doesn't contribute a whole lot, and then when the possibility does arise, it's only useful if the player in fact knows how to use both of them effectively anyway, and most people don't utilize her entirety, so it matters even less. Attempting to ban one of them seems to me to be a convenience from people who don't care to think that maybe they really can be two parts of a whole. I'm not saying that they can't be used independently, only that you should NOT always think of Zelda/Sheik as seperate, think of them as a potential single entity opponent/teammate!
The abovementioned fact that they can be used seperately is why Zelda is allowed in LTT, because Zelda by herself is bottom tier. And one of the points of a low tier tournament is being able to use weaker characters in tournament that you otherwise wouldn't likely be able to. Whereas on the other hand, Singles, Doubles, MM, & Crew Battles are all "all out" kinds of situations, in which you are (or at least most people usually) going 100%, and should be using all abilities at your disposal, all aspects, potential, & capabilities that you have the know how to use effectively with your character. And Zelda is part of Sheik's potential & capabilities and vice versa. Just like desynching to utilize Nana (a "hidden" aspect), Zelda/Sheik transforming is to utilize another part of herself.
Okay, so i've addressed the topic of why they're listed seperately on the tier list, why Zelda has entrance to Low Tier Tournament, and uncessfully conveyed why you should be able to use both Zelda & Sheik together for anything outside Low Tier... The MOST COMMON argument against being able to change (from noobs and experienced players alike) is that it messes up counterpics. This, to say it bluntly, is the fault of the counterpicker, by assuming that the two aren't going to or shouldn't both play a part in the fight and that only one will/should be used. This seems to me to be brought on by a naive, pre-programmed set of laws & ideals of what they think things should be like or what's fair, and an expect others to instinctively follow them. (But why should that group of people be the ones to decide the matter? They're not even the ones who play the character in question.) I see this naive perception of cheapness as a result of the combination of something for the most part unprecedented (the transform mechanic) along with something unfamiliar (the application of somebody actually readily using it in combat). It's new, and some consider it 'too good' or "cheap". There is a fear or concern of a new application they think is cheap, and a want to do away with it instead of learn what to do against it, a feeling of the like that shouldn't exist in high levels of play. For, as good players, you should know that many 'good' tactics/strategies (if you want to call this that), when first discovered or used are often regarded as "cheap". But that should never stop the developement and progression of what's possible. In a healthy metagame: good technique begets a countering good technique, counters beget counters, and what is considered cheap one day is wholesome and fair the next. That's what progression is all about; if you deny the use of something, it only denys your own potential, for you will never develope the strength to fight it or gain what was learned along the path for that strength, and will forever live in the dark. There is almost nothing in this game that's so good that it's banned. The progression i'm aiming for here today is more of an understanding and realization that, in a simple way of putting it: Zelda is to Sheik as Marth's Fair is to Marth. Zelda is an integrable extension and in some cases a compliment to Sheik's game. I would guess I use her around 20-30% of the total time of all matches (figuring both: fights that I use one or the other in, and fights that I use both in (I would use her more, but she's still only bottom tier by herself)), imagine taking away such a large percent of her game. It's like a Falco that's told "From now on you're only allowed to use your neutral-b half as much as you have been."
Rather than considering Zelda and Sheik as seperate characters, of which the opponent will chose one and stick to, instead they should regard them as two parts to an ultimate whole, and recognize the threats each has to offer and go from there (they can also consider who they're fighting against to further evaluate the specific threats they'll be facing) . The only argument I see against what i'm saying is people maybe then thinking Zelda/Sheik is unfair because she would be good against too many characters. But consider who sheik is 'good against', then factor in how many extra match-ups Zelda contributes to Zelda/Sheik as a whole, and you end up looking at a number that's right there with the average number of the other top/high tier characters. So how much good does that really do? Does it really make that much of a difference?
And Delphiki, I don't see it as a issue of semantics.
Personally, I don't see why most people have a problem with it anyway. The combination doesn't contribute a whole lot, and then when the possibility does arise, it's only useful if the player in fact knows how to use both of them effectively anyway, and most people don't utilize her entirety, so it matters even less. Attempting to ban one of them seems to me to be a convenience from people who don't care to think that maybe they really can be two parts of a whole. I'm not saying that they can't be used independently, only that you should NOT always think of Zelda/Sheik as seperate, think of them as a potential single entity opponent/teammate!
KILLA.FOR.CASH.
Smash Champion
lol i <3 you and delphiki's posts... nobody argues with them cuz they are just so long that we dont even read them 
choknater
Smash Obsessed
roflol true that
SuperRad
Smash Master
you write to much and say nothing past like the first line or two of each paragraph
but yeah, basically my opinion is that they should be able to switch freely
however i see the other side. a big part of a crew battle is getting the match ups you want. and because players cant switch characters unless the other person choses a stage, then you can effectively counter pick that character and they don't have a chance to switch. except, for sheik and zelda. they are the only characters that have the luxury of being able to go from one to another at will.
but yeah, basically my opinion is that they should be able to switch freely
however i see the other side. a big part of a crew battle is getting the match ups you want. and because players cant switch characters unless the other person choses a stage, then you can effectively counter pick that character and they don't have a chance to switch. except, for sheik and zelda. they are the only characters that have the luxury of being able to go from one to another at will.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
OMFG <333333333333333
park and waffles came over today and they're pretty even with me in friendlies...
until i started using zelda/sheik... omfg how enlightening. my strategy:
since i'm decent with both characters but have very different styles with each (slow camping zelda and aggressive technical sheik) i constantly change the pace of the game by switching when my opponent starts to do well against one of them. it takes a lot of thinking to beat, and that extra thinking will either help or hinder the opponent.
playing both zelda/sheik is <333333333 i ***** them many times, they figured out characters who can do well against my strat: luigi, falcon, ice climbers. (because they are good against both characters)
man <3333, yo DRGN i see the light. unfortunately you can't play a pro camping zelda like mine ;D HAhahahaHa jk jk.
seriously zelda is awesome. fsmash, neutral A, and neutral B have ridiculous approach-destroying abilities. usmash too. so much priority from the multi-hits.
park and waffles came over today and they're pretty even with me in friendlies...
until i started using zelda/sheik... omfg how enlightening. my strategy:
since i'm decent with both characters but have very different styles with each (slow camping zelda and aggressive technical sheik) i constantly change the pace of the game by switching when my opponent starts to do well against one of them. it takes a lot of thinking to beat, and that extra thinking will either help or hinder the opponent.
playing both zelda/sheik is <333333333 i ***** them many times, they figured out characters who can do well against my strat: luigi, falcon, ice climbers. (because they are good against both characters)
man <3333, yo DRGN i see the light. unfortunately you can't play a pro camping zelda like mine ;D HAhahahaHa jk jk.
seriously zelda is awesome. fsmash, neutral A, and neutral B have ridiculous approach-destroying abilities. usmash too. so much priority from the multi-hits.
SuperRad
Smash Master
I've found that zelda is pretty good against ICs, but maybe it's because i've only used her against bad ones
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i just seem to have trouble with people with fast ground movement. (except for fox)
Delphiki
Smash Champion
DRGN hates Foxes. He does okay against them but worse than most characters.
Brian I think Zelda is a soft counter for ICs. She's really hard to approach, and it's hard to chaingrab her effectively. But of course she dies easily and her recovery is so predictable that once you get her offstage you'll probably get the kill.
I could be wrong though because DRGN counters Delphiki. How am I supposed to tell if it's the character? 0_o
Brian I think Zelda is a soft counter for ICs. She's really hard to approach, and it's hard to chaingrab her effectively. But of course she dies easily and her recovery is so predictable that once you get her offstage you'll probably get the kill.
I could be wrong though because DRGN counters Delphiki. How am I supposed to tell if it's the character? 0_o
choknater
Smash Obsessed
it must be the style that i play zelda. i do incredibly well vs fox and falco because i camp and out prioritize like a peach player. ic's, on the other hand, have a really easy time approaching me because first of all, i don't know much about zelda NOR playing against ic's, and ic's are difficult to edge guard. also, ic's don't even need to chain grab zelda (screw chain grabbing! choknater does not grab LOLOL... only in tournaments) to kill her because smashes and over speed + grab combos **** her so hard.
as for predictable recoveries... has anyone ever thought of switching to sheik to recover? it helps a lot lmaoz. people generally only think it the other way... but for recovering vertically or close to the ledge when you can't horizontally sweetspot, it's better to switch to sheik's teleport instead.
it must be DRGN counters delphiki. ic vs zelda, IMO, is still in ic's favor. (it's harder than easily-cgable sheik, but still a pretty good matchup.)
NintendoKing
Smash Champion
I pwn all duh
But then, like I said, they shouldn't be considered as seperate entities that are counterpickable individually, because playing against one should be thought of as playing against the other as well; they can be a character as a whole as well as individuals. Remember, the whole "...parts of a whole..." case, and all that...
You could also say "Peach is the only character that has the luxury to float." :| ... Ok. ..Besides the whole "they are one character" argument, I see the transform mechanic as another of those kinds of unique abilities (as peach's floating or float-canceling, or another unique ability of which only one or very few characters have) that are sprinkled around the game.
And Chok, what characters were you playing against that Zelda's usmash seemed to have "approach stopping powers"? Most of the time when I use her usmash it seems like I get hit.. and usually, harder than the opponent.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
well, not really approach stopping powers like the neutral a and fsmash, but it does have strange priority and messes with DI. i watched a vid of umbreon mow's zelda, and he uses it on shielding people after an aerial. i mainly wanted to point out its priority which is super special awesome
KILLA.FOR.CASH.
Smash Champion
fox's up smash is pretty good too.
The GERM
Smash Ace
dbr challenges you. money is on the line correct?
Tomi-X
Smash Lord
Am I right in assuming that DBR wouldn't be challenging us otherwise?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lmao nova is in for a treat
NintendoKing
Smash Champion
*busts out the cake mix*
Delphiki
Smash Champion
Hells yeah.
KILLA.FOR.CASH.
Smash Champion
lol dbr forgivenes cake
Tomi-X
Smash Lord
Let's take on Lucien's crew.
Delphiki
Smash Champion
As soon as we get a chance we will. It's just a matter of being in the same place at the same time. Tomi are you going to DRGN's today? Are you bringing Chris and Melvin?
NintendoKing
Smash Champion
You guys should like be more productive with your lives. Get good jobs and ****. Just saying.
tyderiumDS
Smash Journeyman
I agree with NK. Dont forget to get those car things too.
I posted on the ncpr thread that I want to get out of town and smash on sunday/monday. Who's willing to jam in my car and drive somewhere to smash?
I posted on the ncpr thread that I want to get out of town and smash on sunday/monday. Who's willing to jam in my car and drive somewhere to smash?
Delphiki
Smash Champion
Tyde - let's respond in this thread to the responses in the other thread.....0_o....check the other thread...lol
Btw DBR - how about loser buys Denny's? ^_^
Btw DBR - how about loser buys Denny's? ^_^
Zoap
Smash Master
your gonna be sorry, esp if bobby is there
tyderiumDS
Smash Journeyman
I dunno. I can eat a whole lot of food. I bet Simna could outeat bobby too. Never seen a guy pack so much food in one sitting. AND then he went to baskin robbins.
Eating crew battle! Sac versus concord. Loser pays.
Eating crew battle! Sac versus concord. Loser pays.
Tomi-X
Smash Lord
Tyde, I'mma go with you...and as for the job thing, I'm hoping Starbucks gets back to me later tonight...
go to bed tomi....you'll never get a job if u stay up this late
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lets rematch this summer.. june maybe ^_^
Delphiki
Smash Champion
****.....that long? Chok I really want to play more in singles....hopefully in a tourney so we're not sandbagging. 