Nothing new: Why Sora Failed

[behemoth]

As far as to what my experience with making games is, I've been programming games (from breakout on my mom's 386 to elementary sidescrollers to the commercial-level fps I'm working on now) since I was 8. And I've always been a student of good video games.

A trend that is generally noticeable to anyone who has tried to balance a game is that most balancing done by game studios falls into one of two styles:

The first is more expensive, and more chancy. You test the hell out of the game, and make sure that every possible move (if your testers are good enough) has a counter. Don't worry about "broken", just make sure that there is a counter. I say this is chancy because you are betting on two things: First, that your testers are good enough; second, that this balance still leaves distinction between characters/weapons.

The second route, and this is the one I believe Sakurai followed, is cheaper and far more shallow, and not nearly as chancy. In this approach, you basically envision your players' strategies and either decide to make them valid or invalid through your balancing choices. In this route, you know how the player will play because you can essentially make it the only viable way to play.

What the second approach does is create an intensely shallow game, with only a few valid strategies. Half the fun, all the fun for me, of giving dedication to a game is discovering strategies that either the developers didn't intend, or know about, and in this type of game this is impossible.

This, I believe is the brick wall that most compy players (such as myself) are running into headlong.

I wrote this in linux programming class, so it may be a little underexplained or overboring, I will edit as necessary.

 

[Tofu Beast]

linux programming class?
compy players?

**Diddy Kong Banana Throw**
**Bowser fsmash**

**Facon Pawnch**

 

[LavisFiend]

You are a student, not a master.

Therefore, your word still can not be taken as god. So don't assume that you have a higher knowledge than those around you. Just throwing that out there because that was the vibe I was getting.

In regards to the post. We have no clearcut idea how much time went into any aspect of the game, so there is no point in classifying that they had to fall in either of those two methods.

 

[TheLake]

I dont understand any of this ):

Im gonna go eat some cheese

 

[LouisLeGros]

Sounds reasonable, personally I like games that are deeper then the rock paper scissors counters, but still maintain balance. I am not pleased with games that maintain balance through limiting options though. The game doesn't have to be Steel Battalion, but I don't want to see everyone playing the same way.

As an example, I like Starcraft more the Age of Empires and one of the reasons is that age of empires has a lot of rock paper scissors strategy, while Starcraft is well Starcraft


but ya Lavisfiend is sorta correct

 

[Tofu Beast]

yo, can I get some of that cheese?

 

[Raikage]

Characters in Brawl are just as deep as they were in melee, if you think there's only one right way to play each character you're not very good at the game.

 

[behemoth]

You are a student, not a master.

Therefore, your word still can not be taken as god. So don't assume that you have a higher knowledge than those around you. Just throwing that out there because that was the vibe I was getting.

In regards to the post. We have no clearcut idea how much time went into any aspect of the game, so there is no point in classifying that they had to fall in either of those two methods.

Eh, actually that wasn't the attitude I was coming from at all, and I hope that's not what came across. All I'm saying is that from my experience (which admittedly is more limited than that of 40+ year-olds who have been in the industry since its infancy) these two paradigms are what typically are used.

And no, I don't know exactly what time went into the development, but can you tell me honestly after playing the game that you don't believe the design team attempted to force strategies?

Sakurai said it himself, directly in those interviews and indirectly in most, if not all, of his strategy updates.

 

[DarkShadowRage]

 

[behemoth]

Characters in Brawl are just as deep as they were in melee, if you think there's only one right way to play each character you're not very good at the game.

There's not one "right" way to do anything, but as far as the metagame, thus far there seems to be one "best" way to play almost every character. This involves turtling and spamming. If you disbelieve me, check the tactical boards for discussion about the metagame and you'll see that the largest thrust () of the competitive community is in getting around a turtle strat.

 

[-Linko-]

Sakurai created one of Nintendo's icons at the age of 19.

How much [INSERT VIDEOGAME COMPANY]'s icons had you created when you were 19?

Then you know as much as the average Joe's about videogame DESIGNING (not programming, BTW)

 

[behemoth]

Characters in Brawl are just as deep as they were in melee, if you think there's only one right way to play each character you're not very good at the game.

There's not one "right" way to do anything, but as far as the metagame, thus far there seems to be one "best" way to play almost every character. This involves turtling and spamming. If you disbelieve me, check the tactical boards for discussion about the metagame and you'll see that the largest thrust () of the competitive community is in getting around a turtle strat.

And to the "rock/paper/scissors" comment, when I say that there are counters to every move, I don't mean in that way. I mean that the options, offensive and defensive, allow for countering strategy to any move made.

EDIT: btw, sry about double post, but I don't know how to use the multi-quote.

 

[behemoth]

Sakurai created one of Nintendo's icons at the age of 19.

How much [INSERT VIDEOGAME COMPANY]'s icons had you created when you were 19?

Then you know as much as the average Joe's about videogame DESIGNING (not programming, BTW)

Nice. So simply because he has created a great series of games, and did amazingly with Melee, I can't criticize what I see as his approach to Brawl? This makes no sense. That's like someone criticizing <insert sports star here>'s play during a game, and then being asked "how many championships have you won?", this is a non-argument.

No, I know more than the average Joe about game design, because I have been lead design on many mods and a couple games thus far in my career. I'm not arrogant about it, I don't think I'm big **** or anything, it's just my career path.

I really hope that my first post didn't come across as me somehow saying I'm better than Sakurai at anything other than speaking English, because that's not what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that the frustrations of the competitive community at-large concerning Brawl have a common source, one that is a recognizable trend in the current game industry, especially where Nintendo is concerned.


EDIT: Rage, thanks for the informative, thoughtful, and unique reply! I've never seen anything like that before.

 

[TaurToph]

And the third method.
Be good. If you start balancing from the first steps of its creating, and keep control of everything you're coding and of all possibilities, you'll end up with an balanced and deep game.

It's almost common sense that balancing a game is hard, but it's not true. It's hard to realize how to do it, but when you do, it's easy.

Sakurai isn't good at balancing. And in large teams it's even harder, since the works are divided. To balance a fighting game, you need someONE that knows the entire structure of the characters, well enough. Sakurai didn't.

EDIT: and, actually, did Sakurai WANT to balance the game for the more extreme ways of it's use?
Brawl is already fairly balanced for casual standarts. This is enough for him.

 

[DeliciousCake]

linux programming class?
compy players?

**Diddy Kong Banana Throw**
**Bowser fsmash**

**Facon Pawnch**

Why the hell aren't you banned yet?

 

[behemoth]

And the third method.
Be good. If you start balancing from the first steps of its creating, and keep control of everything you're coding and of all possibilities, you'll end up with an balanced and deep game.

It's almost common sense that balancing a game is hard, but it's not true. It's hard to realize how to do it, but when you do, it's easy.

Sakurai isn't good at balancing. And in large teams it's even harder, since the works are divided. To balance a fighting game, you need someONE that knows the entire structure of the characters, well enough. Sakurai didn't.

EDIT: and, actually, did Sakurai WANT to balance the game for the more extreme ways of it's use?
Brawl is already fairly balanced for casual standarts. This is enough for him.

I'm confused as to exactly what you mean? I would make the claim that balancing any game is the hardest part of design, period. I'm not sure what "be good" means.

Do you mean balancing before you code? That usually has the pitfall of not being able to predict the outcome of tens of thousands of lines of code.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

You do know that Sora LTD. only has 2 employees which is Sakurai and another person involved in Brawl.

 

[TiersAreReal]

behemoth's logic generally falls in the same line as people who actually know a bit about game design such as Sirlin or Mu. There's a lot of material out there that validates his opinion (which is more than an opinion: it's blatantly obvious it's what Sakurai did).

It's really obvious that Sakurai's philosophy hasn't been balancing the game much in any way. Look at the way he intends the game to be played: free for all, all items on, all stages, final smashes, etc. There's so much random crap that can happen in his luckfests that game balance isn't even a primary concern. The only thing close to balance in his mind is playing as Sonic with items on because he needs them to offset his weaknesses and help his speed.

Every convention where a Brawl demo was made playable (including the versions that randomly shut off!) were the equivalent of open betas. Sakurai was testing them there (again in the FFA, all items, final smashes environment) and eliminating whatever people came up with that he didn't want. Can you even claim that he has a knowledge of game balance when, in a fighting game of all things, he either put tripping in to amuse himself or put it in as a way of limiting player potential by assigning a degree of luck meant as a counterbalance? That's not balance; that's bad design.

Some of the counterarguments to him are moronic though.

"Sakurai knows game balance because he created a franchise!"

It's nice that you can take two completely unrelated things and have them add up to two, but that's not how it works. Here's one that actually works: The people who created Street Fighter and Guilty Gear know what game balance is. That's because they've actually shown they know what game balance is and is not a result of the action of simply creating a franchise. They know how their players play, get community input, and refine the game instead of removing most of the technical skill involved in the games. What was there to balance in Kirby's Adventure? Not a thing; it wasn't multiplayer.

 

[Dime]

Nintendo Sees Sora and brawl as a success. Wanna know why?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Rash]

Nintendo Sees Sora and brawl as a success. Wanna know why?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The game is also a success because it's GOOD.

 

[Dime]

The game is also a success because it's GOOD.

I couldn’t agree more

 

[Gilgamesh]

Yeah, I kind of hope that every time i failed i got a crapload of money, like Sora.

 

[Raikage]

Sakurai went through and tweaked every characters animations and characteristics personally. Anyone who says he doesn't know about game balance is out of their freaking mind. You can argue whether he did a good or bad job of it all you want, but to say that he has no knowledge of the workings of his own series is complete and utter hogswash. If you say something as ridiculous as "Sakurai doesn't know how to balance" then it's 100% guaranteed that you know less about Smash than he does.

 

[behemoth]

The fact that you think that Sakurai tweaked every animation himself belies your knowledge of the process of game design. Now, he might have told his animators, "um, that hitstun animation needs to be shortened," or something like that. But he did not sit down at the **** Maya station and tweak the animation himself.

No one said that "Sakurai doesn't know how to balance". We said "Sakurai didn't[/] balance". There is a marked difference. And as for your last comment, yeah, I'm sure he does know more about Smash than me... he's seen the code. I just play the games.

However... ready to have your mind blown?

Shh... don't tell anyone... I bet every single one of his devs knows more about it than he does!.

 

[uremog]

If by "sora failed" you mean that they didn't produce something that can be seen as more than a party funfest of laughs, then i think you should be looking at the guys at the top. They obviously went out of their way to remove things that can help Brawl be deeply competitive. Tripping. The shortening of dash dance (i can't think of any other reason for this). How they handled l-canceling in this game, etc... Most of their attempts to acknowledge the competitive side seem to be just convenient PR that was already available (look, we have an item switch!).

I'd really like to see what they think of all this camping and spamming - it's their own fault, really.

 

[AznHalfCaucasian]

If by "sora failed" you mean that they didn't produce something that can be seen as more than a party funfest of laughs, then i think you should be looking at the guys at the top. They obviously went out of their way to remove things that can help Brawl be deeply competitive. Tripping. The shortening of dash dance (i can't think of any other reason for this). How they handled l-canceling in this game, etc... Most of their attempts to acknowledge the competitive side seem to be just convenient PR that was already available (look, we have an item switch!).

I'd really like to see what they think of all this camping and spamming - it's their own fault, really.

QFT.......really eventhough he wanted more of an aerial type game, but by watching and playing people its more of a defensive game than offensive.

-Hope Sakurai didn't meant to be like that, but all well

 

[Binx]

DP sorry guys

 

[Binx]

This game sucks to play competitively, just read cactuar's quote in scars thread as to how the push and pull mechanic is too ruined in this game for it to be a good competitive fighter.

Brawl is really fun in FFA, but honestly once I learned what moves characters could do it became really shallow because its so slow you can react to pretty much anything, anyone but sonic basically can be projectile spammed forever, sonic can be grabbed out of his dashes because they wont let you interrupt dash animations (IE: Dash dance) to create a sibilance of strategy you basically commit yourself 100% to an approach and that takes out all kinds of "mindgames" or smart/creative play.

This entire game was basically designed around removing what made melee challenging and fun to play. The changed the physics engine in a way to remove combos (skill removed: comboing) they made everyone floaty and had it so they all have pretty much amazing recoveries (skill removed: edgeguarding / skill removed spacing while recovering) because of auto sweetspot. Limit movement options but removing interupts in dash dancing, wavedashing, jump canceling attacks (skill removed: approach options) we are left with , dash at them, dash and jump at them, walk at them slowly, crawl at them slowlyer.

Then he adds tripping. People ITS A PARTY GAME, YOU CAN COMPETE IN IT BUT THERE IS NO POINT, THIS GAME IS WORSE THAN MELEE FOR WHAT THE MAJORITY OF THIS SITE IS HERE FOR. If you want to sit down with 3 friends and have free for alls, this is the game for you, its darn fun for that, but if you want to play one vs one matches then you **** well better learn to move on from it and play melee, In fact I think every player here should sign some sort of online petition, have someone edit it, send it to nintendo america talking about the fail we see with the game and how we would like them to make an ssb4 for the Wii right away and just have them use the melee engine and add a few more characters touch up the graphics, start us with all the characters no new story mode, and have them just shoot that out next year and give it to anyone who bought brawl for free so I dont feel like i got cheated out of my money. Sound good?

 

[Tristan_win]

This game sucks to play competitively, just read cactuar's quote in scars thread as to how the push and pull mechanic is too ruined in this game for it to be a good competitive fighter.

Brawl is really fun in FFA, but honestly once I learned what moves characters could do it became really shallow because its so slow you can react to pretty much anything, anyone but sonic basically can be projectile spammed forever, sonic can be grabbed out of his dashes because they wont let you interrupt dash animations (IE: Dash dance) to create a sibilance of strategy you basically commit yourself 100% to an approach and that takes out all kinds of "mindgames" or smart/creative play.

This entire game was basically designed around removing what made melee challenging and fun to play. The changed the physics engine in a way to remove combos (skill removed: comboing) they made everyone floaty and had it so they all have pretty much amazing recoveries (skill removed: edgeguarding / skill removed spacing while recovering) because of auto sweetspot. Limit movement options but removing interupts in dash dancing, wavedashing, jump canceling attacks (skill removed: approach options) we are left with , dash at them, dash and jump at them, walk at them slowly, crawl at them slowlyer.

Then he adds tripping. People ITS A PARTY GAME, YOU CAN COMPETE IN IT BUT THERE IS NO POINT, THIS GAME IS WORSE THAN MELEE FOR WHAT THE MAJORITY OF THIS SITE IS HERE FOR. If you want to sit down with 3 friends and have free for alls, this is the game for you, its darn fun for that, but if you want to play one vs one matches then you **** well better learn to move on from it and play melee, In fact I think every player here should sign some sort of online petition, have someone edit it, send it to nintendo america talking about the fail we see with the game and how we would like them to make an ssb4 for the Wii right away and just have them use the melee engine and add a few more characters touch up the graphics, start us with all the characters no new story mode, and have them just shoot that out next year and give it to anyone who bought brawl for free so I dont feel like i got cheated out of my money. Sound good?

**** dude calm the hell down, your idea is good and even though I would get a big laugh from seeing something like that within a heart beat I would so sign that petition, however you don't need to rant about it.

 

[DRaGZ]

There's not one "right" way to do anything, but as far as the metagame, thus far there seems to be one "best" way to play almost every character. This involves turtling and spamming. If you disbelieve me, check the tactical boards for discussion about the metagame and you'll see that the largest thrust () of the competitive community is in getting around a turtle strat.

And to the "rock/paper/scissors" comment, when I say that there are counters to every move, I don't mean in that way. I mean that the options, offensive and defensive, allow for countering strategy to any move made.

EDIT: btw, sry about double post, but I don't know how to use the multi-quote.

You're assuming that Sakurai went into this with a competitive mindset. He most likely did not. He came into this assuming that the casual gamers, which is the core of the Wii's current demographic now, were just going to beat the crap out of each other without a particularly competitive drive (sure, people want to win, but most casuals don't want to win that badly).

I don't think he ever intentionally wanted turtling to happen. I just think he never thought it would.

 

[behemoth]

I completely agree with you DragZ (btw, great thread in tactical!). This is one of the pitfalls of the strategy of game balancing that Sakurai used. Instead of balancing offensive and defensive options, he went off and diddled himself, or something.

But yes, this does nicely fall under the umbrella of "Wii would like to play with you, your sister, your grandmother, and probably your dog. This is why Wii doesn't even demand that the player have opposable thumbs."

Urgh.