No plans for F-Zero is killing me

[Poppy JR.]

I'll agree with you on sales, lack of dev interest and competition, but I really don't see what the controller has to do with it. F-Zero would play just fine with the Game Pad. Yeah, it would be clunky and it wouldn't be optimal, but that's where the option to use things like the WIi U pro controller and the classic controller come in.

And I don't think online would be too much of an issue either. It's entirely possible to get a solid netcode for it, if Nintendo cared if enough.

I think it would just be wrong to not include gamepad support. Gamecube controller support would just be icing on the cake.

I agree with you about online. I mean, look at Mario Kart 8! Smooth as butter online, even on fairly slow connections. I don't see why it would be any different for F-Zero, unless your connection is absolutely abysmal or something.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

At least people who really want a new F-Zero game can get just the faintest taste of it when 200cc drops. I can say that everyone will do the following setup when that speed class drops;
> Captain Falcon Mii
> Blue Falcon kart
> Big Blue track
> 200cc, no items

And it'd be closer to an F-Zero game than we've gotten since the Gamecube.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll agree with you on sales, lack of dev interest and competition, but I really don't see what the controller has to do with it. F-Zero would play just fine with the Game Pad. Yeah, it would be clunky and it wouldn't be optimal, but that's where the option to use things like the WIi U pro controller and the classic controller come in.

And I don't think online would be too much of an issue either. It's entirely possible to get a solid netcode for it, if Nintendo cared if enough.

Mainly referring to the lack of analog triggers. Probably the biggest gameplay improvement was how you could control how much you banked quite simply. Making ZL gradually move you and L move you quickly would mean losing a ton of precision. Even if the GC adaptor properly read and translated analog button imputs then we'd still have the problem of basically requiring an add-on for an already obscure game.

F-Zero is terrible for multiplayer. First ten seconds is just a FFA and whoever comes out on top wins if he just plays the rest of the track decently. Only way to diffuse that basically turns online vs. into TTs but live, and those types of modes die quickly.

 

[Xzsmmc]

At least people who really want a new F-Zero game can get just the faintest taste of it when 200cc drops. I can say that everyone will do the following setup when that speed class drops;
> Captain Falcon Mii
> Blue Falcon kart
> Big Blue track
> 200cc, no items

And it'd be closer to an F-Zero game than we've gotten since the Gamecube.

I argue that's even worse. It's so close, yet so far. Kind of like (fittingly) driving someone else's car.

 

[Quillion]

Mainly referring to the lack of analog triggers. Probably the biggest gameplay improvement was how you could control how much you banked quite simply. Making ZL gradually move you and L move you quickly would mean losing a ton of precision. Even if the GC adaptor properly read and translated analog button imputs then we'd still have the problem of basically requiring an add-on for an already obscure game.

F-Zero is terrible for multiplayer. First ten seconds is just a FFA and whoever comes out on top wins if he just plays the rest of the track decently. Only way to diffuse that basically turns online vs. into TTs but live, and those types of modes die quickly.

F-Zero X was just fine without that. GX made other more significant improvements like making side tackles better and all around better handling.

 

[Spak]

F-Zero X was just fine without that. GX made other more significant improvements like making side tackles better and all around better handling.

So it would still be doable, but would cause the gameplay to devolve 3 generations?

Someone please remind me why Nintendo thought removing analog buttons was a good idea.

 

[Quillion]

So it would still be doable, but would cause the gameplay to devolve 3 generations?

Someone please remind me why Nintendo thought removing analog buttons was a good idea.

Maybe because they feel that if they have a control option, they feel obligated to use it, and every game they were developing for the Wii didn't need it and so they wanted to get rid of it. (Not trying to defend them)

 

[finalark]

So it would still be doable, but would cause the gameplay to devolve 3 generations?

Someone please remind me why Nintendo thought removing analog buttons was a good idea.

I imagine it has to do with cost cutting to make the controllertablet just a bit more affordable.

Either that or they thought that no game would really ever use it so, once again to cut costs, they dropped the feature.

 

[LancerStaff]

F-Zero X was just fine without that. GX made other more significant improvements like making side tackles better and all around better handling.

I don't think you understand how much tech came from the triggers...

So it would still be doable, but would cause the gameplay to devolve 3 generations?

Someone please remind me why Nintendo thought removing analog buttons was a good idea.

Can't think of a single game that really benefited from analog triggers besides GX. And they're terrible for anything that doesn't use them.

 

[Quillion]

Can't think of a single game that really benefited from analog triggers besides GX. And they're terrible for anything that doesn't use them.

Melee, Super Mario Sunshine...

Yeah... you're right.

 

[LancerStaff]

Melee, Super Mario Sunshine...

Yeah... you're right.

Melee's was just a gimmick like the waggle in the Wii generation and wasn't really supposed to be used "competitively" like L-canceling, Sunshine's could of worked just as well with two shoulder buttons.

 

[Quillion]

Melee's was just a gimmick like the waggle in the Wii generation and wasn't really supposed to be used "competitively" like L-canceling, Sunshine's could of worked just as well with two shoulder buttons.

Actually, your level of press does determine the water flow. I've played the hell out of that game, and I notice the difference.

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually, your level of press does determine the water flow. I've played the hell out of that game, and I notice the difference.

It's not important though, especially with "back flip" spam. All you really need is one button for walking around while spraying and another for standing in place.

 

[Spak]

Melee's was just a gimmick like the waggle in the Wii generation and wasn't really supposed to be used "competitively" like L-canceling,

But it still has uses. It helps cover more of the character, allows for the Marth Killer, and makes the shield go down more slowly, allowing for besster resistance from shield pressure.

 

[LancerStaff]

But it still has uses. It helps cover more of the character, allows for the Marth Killer, and makes the shield go down more slowly, allowing for besster resistance from shield pressure.

The difference being that this is a fighting game. Take it away from everybody and you won't even care it's gone. It's one of the few things people didn't complain that Brawl removed.

 

[Spak]

The difference being that this is a fighting game. Take it away from everybody and you won't even care it's gone. It's one of the few things people didn't complain that Brawl removed.

I did, but there were much larger issues with Brawl so I was more vocal about other problems. I apparently missed light shielding more than others. Plus, I understood that they didn't want to put people using a Wii Remote at a disadvantage, so it was a wise decision based on the poor hardware.

 

[LancerStaff]

I did, but there were much larger issues with Brawl so I was more vocal about other problems. I apparently missed light shielding more than others. Plus, I understood that they didn't want to put people using a Wii Remote at a disadvantage, so it was a wise decision based on the poor hardware.

I fail to see how removing something that wasn't effectively used in 99% of games and actively made the shoulder buttons that much worse for the 99% was a bad decision. Outside of nixing F-Zero of course.

 

[Quillion]

I fail to see how removing something that wasn't effectively used in 99% of games and actively made the shoulder buttons that much worse for the 99% was a bad decision. Outside of nixing F-Zero of course.

A lot of "serious" racing games nowadays actually use pressure triggers to simulate the gas pedal better.

 

[Poppy JR.]

I fail to see how removing something that wasn't effectively used in 99% of games and actively made the shoulder buttons that much worse for the 99% was a bad decision. Outside of nixing F-Zero of course.

Personally, I always loved the Gamecube's shoulder buttons, even if they weren't properly used all of the time. That deep travel and the satisfying "click"... it's just great feeling. Where it was used, I though it was super cool, like water flow control in Mario Sunshine.

I can definitely see where you're coming from, though. I understand that they weren't the most efficient or easy to use, especially for Smash Brothers. Light shielding was cool, but it certainly isn't something I'm pining for in any of the later games.

A lot of "serious" racing games nowadays actually use pressure triggers to simulate the gas pedal better.

As far as F-zero goes, I think variable speed varied by trigger pressure would be a great addition, given that it was optional. I would hate for classic controller lovers to lose control options simply because they didn't have analog triggers.

 

[finalark]

You also need those two click buttons for Weegee's Mansion IIRC.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I think the problem is already been stated, and that is innovation. As a vanilla-ish futuristic racer, F-Zero would end up havug just a niche fanbase compared to other franchises that Nintendo could profit more of- and potential newcomers to the series of this age might just pass of the games as boring, especially now that MK8 can do what F-Zero does in more bigger and engaging, pick-up-'n'-have-blasting-time way.

In anycase, we need more than just another installment in the series. Otherwise we'd just have another tech demo-ish racing game.

 

[Poppy JR.]

I think the problem is already been stated, and that is innovation. As a vanilla-ish futuristic racer, F-Zero would end up havug just a niche fanbase compared to other franchises that Nintendo could profit more of- and potential newcomers to the series of this age might just pass of the games as boring, especially now that MK8 can do what F-Zero does in more bigger and engaging, pick-up-'n'-have-blasting-time way.

In anycase, we need more than just another installment in the series. Otherwise we'd just have another tech demo-ish racing game.

I, for one, think that a huge new addition is what the Doctor Mario ordered. I'm not sure what that would entail, but maybe a new direction is just what the series needs to get back on track.

Excuse the puns.


Does anyone have any ideas for a cool, fresh idea for an F-Zero sequel? Something exciting and original would really give this series the platform it needs to stand apart from Mario Kart.

"Mario Kart does everything F-Zero does! Fast speeds, anti-gravity, etc.!" "Oh yeah? Well the new F-Zero has strategic short-distance teleportation as well as space combat! So there!"

Just for example. Those are terrible ideas.

 

[Xzsmmc]

I don't see how MK and F-Zero are really comparable other than the fact that they're both racing games. F-Zero is all about super fast skill based gameplay, where things like track memorization and twitch reflexes are key. To add to that, the boosting and attacking other racers create a high risk high reward setting. Mario Kart is more of a casual game where items are a big part of winning. It's like comparing New Super Mario Bros. to Crash Bandicoot. Sure, they're both platformers, but they're played in totally different ways.

 

[Poppy JR.]

I don't see how MK and F-Zero are really comparable other than the fact that they're both racing games. F-Zero is all about super fast skill based gameplay, where things like track memorization and twitch reflexes are key. To add to that, the boosting and attacking other racers create a high risk high reward setting. Mario Kart is more of a casual game where items are a big part of winning. It's like comparing New Super Mario Bros. to Crash Bandicoot. Sure, they're both platformers, but they're played in totally different ways.

I agree, but I think most people don't really know that. The problem with creating a new F-Zero game probably lies with the fact that their is a common misconception that MK and F-Zero are very similar. People that think that probably wouldn't buy a new F-Zero game, thinking it was just a Mario Kart-type game. It's a shame really.

I bet people would buy F-Zero U if Nintendo made sure to promote it well and they clearly associated it with C. Falcon, who is definitely the series' most recognizable character.

 

[Quillion]

I think the problem is already been stated, and that is innovation. As a vanilla-ish futuristic racer, F-Zero would end up havug just a niche fanbase compared to other franchises that Nintendo could profit more of- and potential newcomers to the series of this age might just pass of the games as boring, especially now that MK8 can do what F-Zero does in more bigger and engaging, pick-up-'n'-have-blasting-time way.

In anycase, we need more than just another installment in the series. Otherwise we'd just have another tech demo-ish racing game.

I, for one, think that a huge new addition is what the Doctor Mario ordered. I'm not sure what that would entail, but maybe a new direction is just what the series needs to get back on track.

I already have three big ideas:

1. Make the track builder from X Expansion a standard feature. It's only available via emulation of X, but put it into the game and it will stay alive for years!
2. Slower difficulty modes, since a lot of people have problems getting into how fast F-Zero is. They could also be floatier so that shortcuts can still be taken without the level design being compromised.
3. Online play. Goes without saying.

See? There are at least three "big" things F-Zero can do to be "new". Miyamoto's just making excuses.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I already have three big ideas:

1. Make the track builder from X Expansion a standard feature. It's only available via emulation of X, but put it into the game and it will stay alive for years!
2. Slower difficulty modes, since a lot of people have problems getting into how fast F-Zero is. They could also be floatier so that shortcuts can still be taken without the level design being compromised.
3. Online play. Goes without saying.

See? There are at least three "big" things F-Zero can do to be "new". Miyamoto's just making excuses.

Not bad, but perhaps more on the actual gameplay. It could certainly use something more than just high-speed racing (as much as that is exhilarating and skill-induced.)

 

[Xzsmmc]

Make the track builder from X Expansion a standard feature. It's only available via emulation of X

It's also in F-Zero Climax for the GBA.

 

[Spak]

Not bad, but perhaps more on the actual gameplay. It could certainly use something more than just high-speed racing (as much as that is exhilarating and skill-induced.)

I wouldn't mind a new F-Zero game where you got to walk around an open world as C. Falcon in story mode to reach different areas for different missions.

Of course, keep the core racing game play. Maybe bring back custom vehicles and hide parts and other collectibles around the open world to give the player an incentive to explore.

I remembered a good idea finalark had on a different thread, so I decided to repost it here.

EDIT: Changed finalark's first letter to a lowercase. Looks weird capitalized because I'm so used to seeing his username in all lowercase even though it should be capitalized because it's a proper noun.

 

[finalark]

EDIT: Changed finalark's first letter to a lowercase. Looks weird capitalized because I'm so used to seeing his username in all lowercase even though it should be capitalized because it's a proper noun.

lower case letters rule

But in all seriously, the only reason why my screen name is all lowercase is because I accidentally forgot to capitalize the first letter when I made this account. It's been that way for eight years and it would be weird to change it now. I actually haven't used that screen name for anything in years, and I briefly thought about changing it since it was a name I came up with when I was thirteen years old and really don't associate with it anymore.

Anyway, on topic.

I have no idea what thread I posted that in, but I do recall it. I think if Nintendo wants a theoretical F-Zero U to be successful then they need to go beyond just a super fast racing game. Lets get real here. As @ ~ Valkyrie ~ said, in terms of features and defining game play, F-Zero is pretty vanilla. I'm sure people who play this series on a high level will fight me to the death over this, but for 90% of the gaming community there really isn't a whole lot separating F-Zero from other racers aside from its speed and difficulty.

I think that might be what Miyamoto meant when he said that there were having a hard time improving the game in any meaningful way. Unfortunately, while the implementation of the aforementioned theoretical story mode would give casual fans something interesting to do aside from the main racing experience. F-Zero always came off as a more competitive game than Mario Kart (which is why it's mind boggling that Mario Kart has a competitive scene and F-Zero doesn't) so maybe Nintendo could also promote it as competitive racing game and try to get it to show up at major events.

Of course, given how niche F-Zero is I really doubt we'd see that much effort put into it.

 

[Spak]

lower case letters rule

But in all seriously, the only reason why my screen name is all lowercase is because I accidentally forgot to capitalize the first letter when I made this account. It's been that way for eight years and it would be weird to change it now. I actually haven't used that screen name for anything in years, and I briefly thought about changing it since it was a name I came up with when I was thirteen years old and really don't associate with it anymore.

Anyway, on topic.

I have no idea what thread I posted that in, but I do recall it. I think if Nintendo wants a theoretical F-Zero U to be successful then they need to go beyond just a super fast racing game. Lets get real here. As @ ~ Valkyrie ~ said, in terms of features and defining game play, F-Zero is pretty vanilla. I'm sure people who play this series on a high level will fight me to the death over this, but for 90% of the gaming community there really isn't a whole lot separating F-Zero from other racers aside from its speed and difficulty.

I think that might be what Miyamoto meant when he said that there were having a hard time improving the game in any meaningful way. Unfortunately, while the implementation of the aforementioned theoretical story mode would give casual fans something interesting to do aside from the main racing experience. F-Zero always came off as a more competitive game than Mario Kart (which is why it's mind boggling that Mario Kart has a competitive scene and F-Zero doesn't) so maybe Nintendo could also promote it as competitive racing game and try to get it to show up at major events.

Of course, given how niche F-Zero is I really doubt we'd see that much effort put into it.

Click on the arrow next the quote (of the post that you forgot where it was posted) and it will take you to a magic realm of 3 months ago.

Anyways, it looks like Nintendo actually intended for F-Zero to have a possible competitive scene with time trials. In MV, they had a ranking password system that displayed an encrypted password for your best track times.

Ranking Password
Nintendo has designed F-Zero with tournament play in mind. Since you can't upload your best times or take screenshots, the game features a built-in ranking password system. To obtain an encrypted password for your best track times, select Course Ranking from the main menu, then select your name and the track you would like to get a password for. Now hold the L-Button and press up, right, right, B, left, B, A. Your tournament entry password will now appear at the top of the screen and you can write it down. Nintendo uses passwords like these to let you enter into official tournaments, so keep an eye out for them.

(taken from the cheats page here, proven to work by me and my GBA)

This suggests that they intended for some kind of record board or competitions where you could send in your best track times,
but I guess the game never got popular enough. It's a shame, really. F-Zero might still be around and thriving if this feature was actually utilized and Nintendo held competitions to spark the competitive scene. Unfortunately, Nintendo never used it (from anywhere I can find) and F-Zero's possible competitive scene died of Nintendo's own negligence.

 

[LancerStaff]

Like I've said, F-Zero simply doesn't work in a VS. environment.

The very first seconds of the race will be a contest of who gets their attacks in first. Unless you implemented something really stupid like respawning you relative to your opponent and at speed, which has it's own obvious problems, the race is over. Might as well put you in an arena to make it more interesting. Mario Kart manages to support a competitive VS. scene by the simple virtue of not being completely broken.

 

[Quillion]

Not bad, but perhaps more on the actual gameplay. It could certainly use something more than just high-speed racing (as much as that is exhilarating and skill-induced.)

Challenge accepted.

Now, if you will excuse me stealing ideas from other racers…

1. Track sections where there are no track and you're just flying using your G-Diffuser, Star Fox style.
2. Weapons and items (turnoff-able, of course) to make the game much more chaotic.
3. Drafting/Slipstreaming in order to encourage deeper racer-racer interaction.
4. A few one-way tracks. Maybe with Sonic-style branching paths to set themselves apart from Mario Kart's recent one-way efforts.
5. More track hazards + interactivity beyond just walls, speed boosters and shield boosters.

 

[Spak]

Like I've said, F-Zero simply doesn't work in a VS. environment.

The very first seconds of the race will be a contest of who gets their attacks in first. Unless you implemented something really stupid like respawning you relative to your opponent and at speed, which has it's own obvious problems, the race is over. Might as well put you in an arena to make it more interesting. Mario Kart manages to support a competitive VS. scene by the simple virtue of not being completely broken.

It could be a four-player race (like the standard for multiplayer in F-Zero usually is) instead of a 30-player race if it were in a competitive environment. For online, they could have a 30-person mode and a 4-person mode with 26 optional AIs (different groups for with and without AI. Problem solved.

 

[Poppy JR.]

One idea I just had was dynamic tracks. How cool would it be if you could use some kind of weapon or tool to alter the track in tactical ways? You could topple nearby buildings and ride them like ramps for a little shortcut, or use the weapon to instead hit an opponent. You could lay down traps behind you, and utilize the destructible environment in clever ways to force people off the track.

 

[LancerStaff]

Challenge accepted.

Now, if you will excuse me stealing ideas from other racers…

1. Track sections where there are no track and you're just flying using your G-Diffuser, Star Fox style.
2. Weapons and items (turnoff-able, of course) to make the game much more chaotic.
3. Drafting/Slipstreaming in order to encourage deeper racer-racer interaction.
4. A few one-way tracks. Maybe with Sonic-style branching paths to set themselves apart from Mario Kart's recent one-way efforts.
5. More track hazards + interactivity beyond just walls, speed boosters and shield boosters.

So rather then make F-Zero unique you just rip-off every other kart racer? Sure, that'll convince Nintendo...

It could be a four-player race (like the standard for multiplayer in F-Zero usually is) instead of a 30-player race if it were in a competitive environment. For online, they could have a 30-person mode and a 4-person mode with 26 optional AIs (different groups for with and without AI. Problem solved.

Not really. It's still too easy to kill each other, and the whole 30 racers thing still manages to be more gimmicky then 8-player Smash. Even just four players wouldn't work because you'll have people targeting the better players, much like how FFA Smash tournaments don't really happen.

Competitive F-Zero is centered around single-player modes anyway. Don't see that changing with a new entry.

 

[Quillion]

So rather then make F-Zero unique you just rip-off every other kart racer? Sure, that'll convince Nintendo...



Not really. It's still too easy to kill each other, and the whole 30 racers thing still manages to be more gimmicky then 8-player Smash. Even just four players wouldn't work because you'll have people targeting the better players, much like how FFA Smash tournaments don't really happen.

Competitive F-Zero is centered around single-player modes anyway. Don't see that changing with a new entry.

I don't think F-Zero is as focused on attacking as you think it is. Four-player races are good enough for local, and online play would still be fun even if it's more chaotic.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Man, an F-Zero thread, and I've been out of the loop! I feel like I'm too late to catch up on the whole thread, but I have a couple thoughts...

1) The next sequel should follow in X's footsteps aesthetically. I thought the comic book style made F-Zero unique (especially if they used comic-style cel-shading, etc. in actual races), and what's more the art style in general followed more directly from the original SNES F-Zero art style. Kind of a more Jetsony future style rather than the hyper-realistic look of GX. Additionally, the metal soundtrack >>>> the GX soundtrack.

2) Track editor. Pls. I have Climax, and it's awesome in that. In 3D, it'd be amazing, and track sharing would make the game infinitely playable.

3) Online. Duh.

4) While I like F-Zero X's aesthetic, definitely go with something like the GX engine. It's so good.

So that's my thoughts on all that.

What Miyamoto also needs to realize is that when a series has been dormant for over a decade, sometimes you just put out a new one, even if it's a bit "rehashy" just to build interest again.

 

[finalark]

I don't think I've ever played a multiplayer game of F-Zero where the first priority is attack your opponents. Normally victory is earned through mastery of the controls and tracks rather than slamming into everyone Burnout style.

 

[Quillion]

Man, an F-Zero thread, and I've been out of the loop! I feel like I'm too late to catch up on the whole thread, but I have a couple thoughts...

1) The next sequel should follow in X's footsteps aesthetically. I thought the comic book style made F-Zero unique (especially if they used comic-style cel-shading, etc. in actual races), and what's more the art style in general followed more directly from the original SNES F-Zero art style. Kind of a more Jetsony future style rather than the hyper-realistic look of GX. Additionally, the metal soundtrack >>>> the GX soundtrack.

2) Track editor. Pls. I have Climax, and it's awesome in that. In 3D, it'd be amazing, and track sharing would make the game infinitely playable.

3) Online. Duh.

4) While I like F-Zero X's aesthetic, definitely go with something like the GX engine. It's so good.

So that's my thoughts on all that.

What Miyamoto also needs to realize is that when a series has been dormant for over a decade, sometimes you just put out a new one, even if it's a bit "rehashy" just to build interest again.

New Super Mario Bros. is already rehashy, and it hasn't been dormant since 2006.

 

[finalark]

Although, the difference between NSMB and F-Zero is that we get new Mario games constantly, but we haven't seen a new F-Zero in over a decade.

But good god I will agree wholeheartedly that NSMB is rehashy. And the sequels are even worse since they're a rehash of a rehash.