No one played Sonic at the invitational and lack of Sonic in general

[MasterWolf144]

As we all know, Sonic and Samus are the characters not played at the invitational. It is also very notable that Sonic has a lack of acknowledgement in general with Smash 4. Sonic is also barely featured in pictures on Miiverse. Sonic will also be retaining all of his moves from Brawl, except his Down Smash. We are all aware that Sonic's moveset from Brawl felt very rushed and lazy as several animations use him in a ball form. I do not like this as Sonic deserves to have a new, well developed moveset, not one that feels rushed. I hope that Sakurai decides to make a new moveset for him and have him how up a little more than he is now. BOWSER shows up more than Sonic.
*UPDATE Please ignore the the voting.

 

[smashingDoug]

he needs his blue tornado as down B and his bounce attack as down A in air or down B in air

 

[Ultinarok]

Honestly Sonic is fine as he is. Attacking in ball form a lot is sensible considering that's the ONLY way he could attack in most of his games. I don't see the problem.

And he was underrepresented during the invitational simply because the newcomers (Greninja, Rosalina, WFT etc.) were appealing to try since they'd never been used, the popular competitive fan-favorites were bound to be next (ZSS, Fox, Marth, Kirby, Pikachu) so that doesn't leave much room to choose the others. I'm surprised someone even picked Zelda.

Additionally, the "new and exciting" aspect of Sonic is gone since he's a Brawl vet. He doesn't generate as much hype as newcomers/new movesets do, so he's obviously not gonna get much attention.

 

[Spinosaurus]

We are all aware that Sonic's moveset from Brawl are very rushed and lazy as several animations use him in a ball form.

We are? I thought that was a very good direction to take for a character, and that both his Spin Charge and Spin Dash were very well designed with enough differences. You know what's lazy? Project M's Sonic.

I'm not much of a Sonic player but I do dabble with him sometimes and I'm very fond of his moveset. The thing about him is that he's really hard to get the hang of though, which is probably why he wasn't selected in the invitational. None of the players play Sonic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah, Sakurai stated when he designed Sonic for Brawl it was done last minute.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

I don't have too much of an issue with Sonic's move set, but I do believe they could add more of sonic's stylistic attributes. I like PM's take on the homing attack. I also would love to see sonic's forward air trick attack from sonic advance 2 & 3 as sonic's fair.

 

[Ryan.]

Yes, I liked how Sonic was in Brawl. I think they portrayed him well with his move-set.

 

[MasterWolf144]

Yes, I liked how Sonic was in Brawl. I think they portrayed him well with his move-set.

His moveset showed very minor creativity and focused only on his classic side (Although this was the only side available as Sonic Unleashed was released after 2008). He should have a new moveset as he has MUCH MORE abilities than Spinning into a ball now. The fact that they are keeping his moveset the same, and not to mention the rash gesture of giving Palutena a move that can make her faster than him, shows how little they are caring for a character that is from Sega.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

His moveset showed very minor creativity and focused only on his classic side (Although this was the only side available as Sonic Unleashed was released after 2008). He should have a new moveset as he has MUCH MORE abilities than Spinning into a ball now. The fact that they are keeping his moveset the same, and not to mention the rash gesture of giving Palutena a move that can make her faster than him, shows how little they are caring for a character that is from Sega.

His moveset actually comes from Sonic the Fighters.

I do want some more abilities, like seeing the boost in some form, but I'm happy with how he's portrayed. My only problem with him in Brawl was his lack of killing moves, and from what I've seen from speculation, he's been given some buffs.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

His moveset showed very minor creativity and focused only on his classic side (Although this was the only side available as Sonic Unleashed was released after 2008). He should have a new moveset as he has MUCH MORE abilities than Spinning into a ball now. The fact that they are keeping his moveset the same, and not to mention the rash gesture of giving Palutena a move that can make her faster than him, shows how little they are caring for a character that is from Sega.

Au contraire! As my avatar shows, that's just evidence of Sakurai's master trolling!

The real crime is VGBC and the like ignoring Sonic for moveset assessment!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Doesn't sonic move faster in spinball mode

 

[Camalange]

Yes.

Also we still don't fully know exactly how Palutena's moves work, or if any of those were customized specials.

Edit: Also Smashboards keeps ****ing up my text jesus.

 

[ChikoLad]

Sonic's moveset was just fine in Brawl. What you call a rushed moveset, I call a very well thought out moveset focused around speed, baiting and punishing, and of course, great mind games and fake-outs due to the ball animation being used with many of his moves.

His killing power and the lag on some of his moves is all I really needed to see improved, but they've done that, and then some.

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

The main reason Sonic wasn't used during the tournament was the format. Also, I don't anybody invited had any familiarity with Sonic, anyway.

It also makes sense that he's not talked about much because only one thing has changed. It's not even that big a deal.

Also, I think Sonic's moveset was fine. It was the engine that made him bad. His speed should have made up for his lack of priority, but with the way movement/momentum/stun was handled, he couldn't do well.

 

[Virum]

I have two main issues with Brawl Sonic (which may also be my issue with Smash 4 Sonic but we'll have to wait and see). The first is that he didn't feel stylish or flashy. Sonic is a stylish character and has been for a very long time. Even in the classic era of Sonic games he had a level of style and flash that other platforming mascots didn't really have. However I don't really feel that's captured all that well in Brawl.

The second is the character's overall lack of speed and fluidity. This may probably be because I'm used to PM Sonic, but Brawl Sonic barring his running speed just feels slow. His attacks barring a small handful feel rather sluggish. All three of his Smashes are slow (and aren't even particularly powerful to add insult to injury), and a fair few of his aerials have more ending and landing lag than I feel they should (Down Air and Back Air are no where near good enough to justify the amount of landing lag they have for instance, and this possibly holds even truer in Smash 4). Although part of this was down to Brawl's engine. Not retaining momentum from a dash as you jump made ground to air transitions for Sonic feel ass for example.

His main advantageous point is his array of janky shield cancels off of his Down and Side Bs but honestly I don't find this sort of design to be conducive to what Sonic really should be (nor do I think it's particularly good design in general). And if Smash 4 plans on keeping this design without really spicing him up I probably won't play him much. Regardless of whether or not the character is better, I'd argue he's just not particularly fun to play (though of course this is subjective).

 

[Camalange]

I think the only thing PM Sonic got right is the flashy animations. I pretty much hate everything else.

Brawl and Sm4sh Sonic both have Spinshot, which helps make up for lack of ground to aerial momentum. As for overall speed and fluidity, I agree in part with the issue lying in Brawl's engine, but considering that's an issue with the entire game, I don't think Sonic is particularly held back anymore than any other character. He also has movement out of spindashes to work with, which also make up for his raw dash to jump transition. Side note: Sonic not only has the fastest ground speed, but he also has one of the better recoveries in the game, only improved upon in Sm4sh to now have SideB and UpB snap to the ledge. The UpB buff is huge imo, considering as I've mentioned previously how Sonic is always forced to recover high to stay safe, which is a little counter-intuitive considering the best part of his UpB is his vertical distance. Plus Sonic's ground speed alone allows him to get places and punish things that no other character can dream of challenging.

When you make a character's ground speed twice as fast as the previous fastest character in the game, you'd have to imagine that there's going to be a checks and balances. If Sonic's smashes were fast and all of his aerials had little to no ending lag in a game that's as "slow" as Brawl, Sonic would be outright ridiculous. Speaking of PM... I think we all remember when Sonic was top tier in that game. Now what happened to him? Just sayin'. I still can't even cancel **** with him. Boring. As for Sonic's lack of KO power... Yes. I think everyone agrees that Sonic's only major problem in Brawl is a lack of reliable KO option or set-up, but I don't think that lies inherently in his overall "power".

In any fighting game I've ever played, I go for the characters with a lot of mix-up options and/or speed. Ibuki, Talim, Platinum, etc. So going back to Sonic's ground speed being twice as fast as the previous top speed character, I love that Sonic is about mix-ups. This may be a personal thing for me, but if you give a character speed AND strength, that doesn't quite make sense. I love fast characters that open you up and make smart hits that add up quickly. So again, this leads to Sonic's biggest flaw... Then what? In games like Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Blazblue, etc. you have a life bar where a jab can be enough to get the kill sometimes... So how does Sonic kill?

I think if you ask any Sonic, his strongest point is edgeguarding... But in a game where the opponent generally is very safe when recovering, this isn't a huge selling point (granted spring drops and the like can be deadly). Sm4sh so far has shown us that Sonic's dair can spike, and spring doesn't go away after it hits someone on it's way down. I imagine Sonic's selling points will again be similar to those of Brawl, but enhanced. Sonic looks like his kills will come from edgeguards, especially considering that his uair was buffed in terms of ease to combo, but nerfed as a KO option. You won't be seeing a lot of spring > uair KOs anymore.

Even with Sonic's current KO options in Brawl, Fsmash aka Hypnosmash is a lot better than most acknowledge. It's disjointed, and his hurtbox shrinks when he takes a step back before the release of it. I can't tell you how many people I STILL **** up with that thing.

 

[Virum]

Sonic's issue in PM back in and around 2.5 wasn't the fact that he was too good. It was the fact that he was ****ing stupid. He didn't have to commit to anything because of all his various cancels and it made the character's play style dumb because Sonic could very easily dictate the entire pace of the match regardless of who he was against. The design was fundamentally flawed, particularly in a more offensively inclined game like PM. A lot of his cancels (barring is Side B ones and arguably his Blast Attack) were removed in 3.0 to step away from this stupid design philosophy and develop him into a more rounded character. This is also my main issue with Brawl Sonic. The character fundamentally is terrible. The various shield cancels he has gave him an odd level of flexibility to help alienate this, but consequently lead to the character's design being lame and unfun. He almost feels like he doesn't quite belong within the game, as the game he plays is fundamentally so different from everyone else.

Back on the subject of Smash 4 though, one thing I do like about Sonic is how they've spiced up a few of his animations. Back Air, Up Air, Down Smash and Dash Attack all look pretty cool for example. I just wish they did it for more.

 

[Camalange]

I could write out another wall, but it's much easier if I just say I completely disagree with everything you said and call it a day. However, that's the whole point of PM isn't it? Not agreeing with Brawl? So this will inevitably accomplish nothing.

Well, I guess that's not entirely true. I agree with you on the animations.

#whenssmash4

 

[MasterWolf144]

Au contraire! As my avatar shows, that's just evidence of Sakurai's master trolling!

The real crime is VGBC and the like ignoring Sonic for moveset assessment!

They supposedly ran out of tape. Look: http://gyazo.com/141a468a4d4eb8e74803db32c14acb0e

 

[MasterWolf144]

Sonic should at least deal damage as he is charging his spindash and deal damage as he turned around in this form.

 

[DonkaFjord]

His moveset showed very minor creativity and focused only on his classic side (Although this was the only side available as Sonic Unleashed was released after 2008). He should have a new moveset as he has MUCH MORE abilities than Spinning into a ball now. The fact that they are keeping his moveset the same, and not to mention the rash gesture of giving Palutena a move that can make her faster than him, shows how little they are caring for a character that is from Sega.

Well many speculate all of those specials shown off in her trailer were the customizable specials, besides and light is faster than sound so it kinda makes sense...? Besides sonic is fast without having to use a special move.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

The major differentiator imo that sets PM sonic apart from Brawl sonic is the fact that brawl sonic required you to study heavily into how his spn attacks functioned as a means of both movement and approaching in order to make them feel fluid and not unnecessary. Sonic's need for canceling his spin attacks is to reinforce his bait and punish game as in brawl he thrives off an opponents misjudgment and a players lack of awareness of sonic's options during his spin attacks.

While in PM sonic feel more like he simply overwells opponents with a fast approach option that can easily transition into a heavy rush down playstyle. The knowledge of his approaches still needs to be present but for the most part players just can spin attack in and get free pressure due to the nature of the way shield pressure and hitstun applifies sonic's damage potency.

If brawl had hitstun brawl sonic would probably be far more interesting to watch when used by someone who understands the character and far more scary to play against than he is currently in PM.

i say this because brawl sonics know(or should) ho to maximize reads and bait and punish scenarios to a much more consistent degree and its mostly due to his spin cancels which aren't present in PM.

Sonic archetype in brawl as a character i would categorize as one who plays a false offensive game where he advances against the opponent through defensive options

Sonic in PM is more of a character who simply thrives on fast rush down approaches that pressure the opponents shield and force them to move.

From what i've seen and played in smash 4 Sonic feels like a more distinguished brawl sonic in terms of turning his approaches into actual offense committed options that have some very satisfying results thanks to his overall better looking spin attack tools. Though i doubt sonic mains in smash 4 will draw in as much attention as PM sonics simply due to the fact many PM sonic users don't like brawl sonics moveset and how precision based it is. granted so far smash 4 sonic seems to be trying to remove some of the slowness that acts as a barrier for new sonic users.

But so say sonic's brawl moveset didn't feel fluid i find inaccurate as once you understand him, you can move around very freely and quickly with ease.

 

[Ragna22]

I don't think there was anything wrong with his Brawl move set apart from low kill potential,the game's physics just don't work in his favor most of the time, and his side B feels too much like his down B.

If they can change his side B into something different or at least if the Smash 4's physics fit better in his favor then I think Sonic will be just fine cause in Project M, while his attack power isn't exactly increased much compared to Brawl, the physics of Project M and the overall better control still balance Sonic pretty well because he can deal some crazy combos to deal enough damage that it doesn't even matter whether or not he has kill moves anymore, you just gotta know where to take his combo potential meanwhile keeping your mobility going cause you're still a light character.

 

[SmashWolf]

Putting Sonic in a ball all the time is just stereotyping him to the classic games. He's had several different moves in Sonic Adventure 2, Heroes, Sonic Battle, Sonic 2006, Unleashed, etc.

The speedy rolling is just his MOST iconic thing, not his only iconic thing. Yet 3 of his 4 special moves are all using the same rolling animations. How is Project M "lazy" with it's moveset ACTUALLY designed around Sonic's fighting style?

 

[smashbroskilla]

IDK I look forward to using sonic in smash 4

 

[Ragna22]

Putting Sonic in a ball all the time is just stereotyping him to the classic games. He's had several different moves in Sonic Adventure 2, Heroes, Sonic Battle, Sonic 2006, Unleashed, etc.

The speedy rolling is just his MOST iconic thing, not his only iconic thing. Yet 3 of his 4 special moves are all using the same rolling animations. How is Project M "lazy" with it's moveset ACTUALLY designed around Sonic's fighting style?

Well to be fair, his move setbin Project M is kind of what you just described, three of his specials use the same ball animation in Brawl, and the same three specials use the same ball animation in Project M, obviously thebonly differences in both are recovery animations and different functions and of course the slide kick transition in PM.

Also in terms of other games and his move set he has the homing attack from the Adventure games and his side-tilt, forward smash, down smash and up-tilt are all from Sonic the Fighters. so the move set but I see what you're getting at, personally if his forward special gets changed it's gotta be the boost from Rush/Unleashed/ect.

 

[Virum]

Most of Sonic's moveset is from Sonic the Fighters which is a classic era game. Issue is that a lot of that game's moves are very stock and there to pad the moveset as opposed to capture the character. If you've played Sonic the Fighters you'll know that every character shares at least 60-70% of their command list with every other character. As for the Homing Attack, that technically originated from Sonic 3D Blast though it was made iconic from Adventure. It's honestly kind of odd that they referenced so much classic Sonic when the model of Sonic in Brawl and Smash 4 is of modern Sonic and modern Sonic is the one that made his home on Nintendo consoles.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

A lot of the moves brought into sonic the fighters were moves that originally were in virtua fighter thus why they seem very bland. Though i do think classic sonic would've been a much more appreciated design to use for brawl/smash 4 i do see why they chose modern sonic's looks being that his body just structurally looks more suited for the types of attacks he uses. Sure they could've used his classic model but his range would probably be far worse than it is now due to classic sonic's smaller body build.

Although again the games still months away from launch, theres still a possibility that sonic's moveset could be changed further, but given that no one used sonic to any notable degree that they could give feedback to the developers about i doubt we'll see much changes besides damage, knockback and cooldown related things. It's a shame really that Sonic always tends to get left unmentioned when it comes to Smash 4 even if he is a veteran now. (even in brawl sakurai never dived into sonic's moveset much outside of GDC where he did a demonstration with the 3rd party characters which ended in him focusing more on snake ironically)

It's just kind of ironic that the character renowned as being "The most highly requested character in smash bros" to once being announced falls silently into the shadows of the rest of the cast and only gets mentioned with regards to the other 3rd party characters.

 

[Ragna22]

Well back at thaat time how would you guys design a move set for Sonic in Fighters? Because while characters share the same moves and I get thst they're originall in Virtual Fighter that's only on a technicality, what does Sonic use in Fighters? a roundhouse punch and a horse kick, what does he use in Smash? A roundhpuse punch and horse kick. Fighters may have been a Sonic version of Virtua Fighter/Fighting Vipers but it's still within the Sonic franchise and is the only game at the time where Sonic is using close combat attacks.

But if you REALLY want to get into technicalities, most if not all of Virtua Fighter's attacks are really from real life martial arts just saying.

 

[Skyfox2000]

His moveset actually comes from Sonic the Fighters.

I do want some more abilities, like seeing the boost in some form, but I'm happy with how he's portrayed. My only problem with him in Brawl was his lack of killing moves, and from what I've seen from speculation, he's been given some buffs.

Some of Sonic's Moves is from SEGA's Virtua Fighter series.

 

[Star ☆]

And some of his moveset in Project M originates from Sonic Battle, ala his up tilt and forward aerial. It would be nice if he got a bit more inspiration though.

 

[NotLiquid]

Honestly if there's only one thing I wish Sonic took from Project M (and by extent Sonic Battle) its his forward aerial.

 

[Camalange]

Since they went to the effort of changing Sonic's dsmash (which I at least like more than the old one), I wish they had just used the Sonic Battle animation like in PM instead of the Fox/Falco-esque animation that we all know already.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I just want the boost for his side B, that's all. Some stuff based on Sonic Battle rather than just Sonic the Fighters would be nice. Also a better homing attack without the weird curve an maybe even a trick after landing it would be nice too

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

His move set only looks plain because you don't understand how stun, trajectory and hit boxes work. There is more to a characters moves than face value.

 

[Virum]

His move set only looks plain because you don't understand how stun, trajectory and hit boxes work. There is more to a characters moves than face value.

Those factors have nothing to do with each other. A character looking plain aesthetically and having boring animations are all artistic elements that have nothing to do with hitstun, trajectory or hitboxes. The latter dictate the character's overall effectiveness, but the former are what give life to the character.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Those factors have nothing to do with each other. A character looking plain aesthetically and having boring animations are all artistic elements that have nothing to do with hitstun, trajectory or hitboxes. The latter dictate the character's overall effectiveness, but the former are what give life to the character.

And he has life. Do you see people complain about Marth because all of his moves involve him swinging his sword? Did people complain about Falco in Melee he "aesthetically" had the same exact moves as Fox excluding his blaster animation? No, because the core gameplay of the character is engaging enough that even if a move looks the same, it's utility makes up for it. I was completely fine with how he was in Brawl, and now in smash 4 he seems even better now that some of his moves are either new or have different properties.

A grand total of seven moves Sonic has involves him being a spin ball: neutral B, Down B, Side B, Dash attack Nair, D-smash and U-smash, all of them having different utility, with his D-smash being a different move, dash attack functioning like Sonic's rolling kick in Sonic Adventure 2, and his Side B works like an extremely fast triangle jump, now there are clear distinctions of the move, but people will still complain.

Sonic spends most of his time running and rolling, maybe less so in the newer Sonic games, but people complain about them anyway. No one had a problem with how Sonic was in the Genesis era, and his character in smash reflects that. He is a very lively character, people just have these overwhelming desire to complain about things instead of trying to work with it.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

while i don't necessarily have an issue with how sonic's animations are in smash to any major degree i can see why some may find him to seem "boring" or "plain" because of the fact that sonic's personality exudes that "i'm cool" feel. whereas that's not seen too much in his moveset in brawl.

There are a few instances in Smash 4 where it's being implemented. Homing attack now when sonic bounces off the ground he does a flip in midair instead of just bouncing backup in a ball. His uair he does like a spiralling spin in the air after he finishes the moves and how his bair looks more dynamic as well as how he does a front flip to getup from his dsmash.

 

[Virum]

And he has life. Do you see people complain about Marth because all of his moves involve him swinging his sword?

How is this even a point? He's a swordsman, of course he's going to swing a sword. People don't complain because he does it with grace and elegance. It compliments the character.

Did people complain about Falco in Melee he "aesthetically" had the same exact moves as Fox excluding his blaster animation? No, because the core gameplay of the character is engaging enough that even if a move looks the same, it's utility makes up for it.

Yes people did actually. It's quite a common complaint among the less competitively inclined audience and quite a few people like Brawl Falco because it remedied this. Mind you I won't hold it against Melee Falco since he, alongside the other clones barring Luigi, we fairly last minute additions. But the point I'm making is there were people that did complain.

I was completely fine with how he was in Brawl, and now in smash 4 he seems even better now that some of his moves are either new or have different properties.

Good for you, I wasn't. Hence why I'm expressing my dissatisfaction.

A grand total of seven moves Sonic has involves him being a spin ball: neutral B, Down B, Side B, Dash attack Nair, D-smash and U-smash, all of them having different utility, with his D-smash being a different move, dash attack functioning like Sonic's rolling kick in Sonic Adventure 2, and his Side B works like an extremely fast triangle jump, now there are clear distinctions of the move, but people will still complain.

People will complain because having that many moves where the character undergoes the same core action is visually boring. For both Brawl and PM Sonic I've lost count of how many people have said "his moves all look the same". Nobody says this for any other character. Obviously to Sonic players the distinctions are clear because you know the character, but to a slightly more ignorant crowd the distinctions are much less obvious and that is an issue.

Sonic spends most of his time running and rolling, maybe less so in the newer Sonic games, but people complain about them anyway. No one had a problem with how Sonic was in the Genesis era, and his character in smash reflects that. He is a very lively character, people just have these overwhelming desire to complain about things instead of trying to work with it.

Whether or not people complain about the newer games is irrelevant, the character is what people should be focusing on and over time Sonic's arsenal of attacks and abilities has expanded greatly. The model for Sonic is his modern look, therefore he should adopt attacks and abilities from his broad repertoire spanning 20 odd years. I love Classic Sonic. Those games were some of my favourites of all time. However creating a fighting game moveset out of a combination of that and stock Virtua Fighter-esque moves is boring and, in my opinion, doesn't do the character overall justice.

Granted I have less of an issue with Smash 4 Sonic so far comparative to Brawl Sonic but I still don't quite think it's there yet in terms of how stylish and cool the character could be.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I agree so some degree that he's lacking in style in brawl but i also feel as though they missed opportunities to use some of his more iconic classic animations such as his hurt animation from either sonic 3 or sonic 1-2. Or how his walk animation doesn't replicate the way he would start up running in the original games and just looks goofy.

but if what they are doing with him in smash 4 is any indication of what they are doing to sonic then i'm hopeful that he has some more rewarding things visually when attack land. Though while i like the fact sonic strikes a pose when he hit with homing attack in PM, i feel that the knock back that's given off hitting with the move does make the need for striking a pose justified. (although this is just a personal nitpick with it).

Although if they were to add more stylish animations to sonic's moves they would probably be new air dodge or spot dodge animations and more defined animations for attack such as what happen to bair where he now kick outward and leaves his foot out and then lands instead of doing a backwards spin kick like in brawl