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No Limit Hold'em Poker

Lixivium

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Some friends of mine have started playing Texas Hold'em Poker (friendlies, $1 buy in).

I never got into Poker back when it was becoming all the rage on college campuses. But it's actually kind of fun. I won enough quarters today to do my laundry (WHOO). I keep losing hands to my roommate, though, and it is infuriating.

Last game we played, I had a 10 and a Queen and I pair the 10's on the flop. I now had the top pair and the Queen kicker. I go all in. My roommate calls with Ace, 5, and nothing on the flop. Of course, he catches another Ace on the turn and knocks me out.

Was that a good move?
 

Rici

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He won, didn't he?

In poker it's not about doing a good move or a bad move, it's about risk. And if you're willing to take a risk, sometimes it'll pay you back a lot more.

EDIT: for clarification, I don't think it was a smart move, but being smart isn't everything to poker. Luck will always stay in the game, the only way of being a really good player is to dim down that luck factor and get control in your own hands.
 

cF=)

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It all depends on how many 10's or A's you saw during the match. It sure was a smart move if you guys played for 10 minutes and no aces came by, but going all in was dumb if you knew 2 10's already came out during previous hands.
 

Lixivium

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He won, didn't he?

In poker it's not about doing a good move or a bad move, it's about risk. And if you're willing to take a risk, sometimes it'll pay you back a lot more.

EDIT: for clarification, I don't think it was a smart move, but being smart isn't everything to poker. Luck will always stay in the game, the only way of being a really good player is to dim down that luck factor and get control in your own hands.
I disagree; there are definitely good plays and bad plays. We're not really confident enough to play weird bluffing games.

It all depends on how many 10's or A's you saw during the match. It sure was a smart move if you guys played for 10 minutes and no aces came by, but going all in was dumb if you knew 2 10's already came out during previous hands.
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to reshuffle after every hand in Poker. :ohwell:

I mean, I already had the top pair from the flop, unless he had pocket Jacks or better. He gave no indication of this in the opening bids (and he obviously didn't, although Ace Five is pretty good).

Well, maybe it wasn't a good bet. I just wanted to know good ways of analyzing these situations.
 

dr.neo

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Exactly, there are good plays and bad. If I understand correctly you had a ten and then two appeared on the flop? Thats a great hand to play. Sometimes people get lucky. Your friend got lucky and that also had lots to do with poker.
 

Lixivium

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No, I had a 10 and Queen, the flop was, I think, 10 6 2. I figured I had the best hand, unless:

He had pocket Jacks or better
He flopped a three-of-a-kind
He had another 10 with a higher kicker than a Queen

And as it turns out, he didn't have any of those.

Now that I think about it, it probably wasn't a very high percentage bet. Whatever, it's still fun to talk in fancypants Poker terms.
 

Grand Champion

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I used to play poker online before it got banned in the US.

You made a good play. It was definitely high percentage unless he had a flush draw.
 

Eor

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I wouldn't say that what you did was a very good move. You had a pair of tens, only. Thats not hard to beat, and as it was unlikely you have two tens in your hands, your partner probably thought you where bluffing. Unless all those cards where suited, there was nothing big you could of had, and there where still the last two cards. Not bad to bet on it, but it wasn't good to go all in.
 

Lixivium

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Thanks guys, that just happens to be a hand for which I remember most of the details.

We're all bad at reading and bluffing so we just pretty much play the percentages. That's what I'm trying to get some advice on.
 

Mr.GAW

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What makes someone a good poker player is if they maximize their winnings and minimize their losses. You'll never be able to win everyhand, so when you have a good hand, you have to milk it for all it's worth.

When you have a bad hand, you can certainly still bet, but it really depends on the type of people you're playing with.

I almost NEVER bluff with my friends, because their stupid and aggressive, and they call pretty much everything. On the other side of this issue, when I DO get a good hand, their STILL stupid and aggressive, and I'll rake in a huge pot so long as I bet enough. My friends don't scare easily. Of course, you're freinds may be different.


ANYWAYS.... for that hand, it was certainly right to bet, even a large amount, you were right in thinking you probably had the best hand. You have to think though, what if he DOES have pocket Jacks or better? What if he DID flop a three-of-a-kind?
What if he DID have another 10 with a higher kicker than a Queen?

If you aren't short-stacked I don't think I would advocate that move. Maybe 30%-50% of your stack, unless, like I said, you're really low on chips and about to fall out. It would be okay if you were in that situation. Also, people tend to think that when you go All-in, you're most likely bluffing. They see going all-in as a sign of weakness- a last desperate attempt to fool you. Of course, in this case you weren't, but you certainly don't want him to call. There's still the turn and the river and he could easily pick up something better than a pair of tens.

If he folds, that STILL wouldn't be too good. You had to risk going all-in and all you get is the blinds and whatever your friend betted before the flop (which isn't anything, if you're friend is smart.) Still you would've gotten away with murder.

I think that if you would've bet 30-50%, he would've taken you more seriously, and you still wouldn't have gone out afterward.

Of course the main problem here is your friend is inexperianced, that, or he has balls.

A lot of inexperianced players feel overconfident just because they have an Ace, but the truth is, there's no better chance of getting a pair of aces than a pair of 2's. The only reason they feel so powerful is because they know the aces beat the 2's.

Another problem is that you're friend got lucky.

It really shouldn't have gone down that way. Even WITH you going all-in, he should've folded if he was smart, because he got VERY lucky picking up that ace on the turn or river.

I hope this all makes sense. I went through the same thing with my friends. It was frustrating, because I went through the situation in my head, and didn't expect them to do what they did end up doing, because it was the wrong move.

My friends incompetence in poker really hurt my skills. That's why begginers often do get lucky at poker. It's because the vets are too used to playing with other vets, and they forget how a newb plays.

I don't blame you too much for your move, and I don't blame you at ALL if you were short-stacked.

The only way to get back at someone whose so aggresive like that is to let him rake in the blinds, maybe see a flop every once and a while, but then milk him for all he's worth when you have an amazing hand like AA or AK. Even JQ is a great hand to have.

I hope this all makes sense.
 

Illos

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My friends and I play $5 buy in all the time, the occasional $10. We play more Omaha high than Hold 'Em
 

1048576

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Poker is 85% luck. Seriously. I could beat anybody if I was dealt Aces and they were dealt garbage everytime. If you lose, you were unlucky. If you win, you were lucky. 10% of Poker is psychic ability, which is putting them on a hand. Tells are stupid. If I start jumping on the poker table, does that mean I'm bluffing or not. If I was, then if I do it again, am I still bluffing, or am I playing mix-up games. The other 5% is actual betting skill, knowing pot odds and all that shenanigans. Only one in twenty hands will that come into play.
 

dr.neo

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I wouldn't say that what you did was a very good move. You had a pair of tens, only. Thats not hard to beat, and as it was unlikely you have two tens in your hands, your partner probably thought you where bluffing. Unless all those cards where suited, there was nothing big you could of had, and there where still the last two cards. Not bad to bet on it, but it wasn't good to go all in.
It is a good play after you see the flop. With the six and two also being on the flop that shows that there is not a good chance for anyone else to win the hand.
 

jamminjohn

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Poker is 85% luck. Seriously. I could beat anybody if I was dealt Aces and they were dealt garbage everytime. If you lose, you were unlucky. If you win, you were lucky. 10% of Poker is psychic ability, which is putting them on a hand. Tells are stupid. If I start jumping on the poker table, does that mean I'm bluffing or not. If I was, then if I do it again, am I still bluffing, or am I playing mix-up games. The other 5% is actual betting skill, knowing pot odds and all that shenanigans. Only one in twenty hands will that come into play.
Wrong. Knowing pot odds and reading your opponent's bets is 85% of the game. It's what smashers call "mind games." Knowing what's worth doing and when, mixing up your game and playing your opponent's hand, not yours.

Realistically, tells aren't only read by facial expressions or whatever. It's read by knowing your opponent's personality. In smash, players read their opponent by watching how they play. It's the same in poker.

Lixivium: Was it just you two playing? Nobody else was dealt hands? If so, the odds were almost even, with him being in the lead by a few percent before the flop. How much did you bet before the flop? Q10 isn't a great hand to bet more than 4x the pot with. If I was your opponent, I would've called anything other than an all-in preflop if it was heads up. After the flop, however, your opponent didn't play smart. He got lucky.
 

Lixivium

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Lixivium: Was it just you two playing? Nobody else was dealt hands? If so, the odds were almost even, with him being in the lead by a few percent before the flop. How much did you bet before the flop? Q10 isn't a great hand to bet more than 4x the pot with. If I was your opponent, I would've called anything other than an all-in preflop if it was heads up. After the flop, however, your opponent didn't play smart. He got lucky.
We were the only ones in that particular hand. Most of my friends all play pretty conservatively, it's just my roommate that likes to push large bets and try to buy the pot.

It seems like every time I get a decent hand to challenge him, he just barely beats me by having a higher kicker or catching something on the turn/river. It's very frustrating. :mad:

What goes around comes around, I guess. In an earlier game I knocked out two people in a row by flopping pairs that just beat out their pocket pairs.
 

jamminjohn

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We were the only ones in that particular hand. Most of my friends all play pretty conservatively, it's just my roommate that likes to push large bets and try to buy the pot.

It seems like every time I get a decent hand to challenge him, he just barely beats me by having a higher kicker or catching something on the turn/river. It's very frustrating. :mad:

What goes around comes around, I guess. In an earlier game I knocked out two people in a row by flopping pairs that just beat out their pocket pairs.
He was ahead of you before the flop. If you didn't bet big, he was going to be in that hand for sure since you say he likes to buy the pot. Also, you didn't have a good hand to begin with considering other hands were dealt besides you two. Q10 is a good hand in heads up hold 'em, but not if there are 4 or more people.

Don't think the "every time" mentality. It's what'll make you lose. Have confidence in your decisions and DON'T play every 10 or higher hands dealt to you!

Here's a little guideline: AJ or better is great if there are more than 4 people.
Two face cards are great if there are less than 4 people.
Pocket pairs or an Ace is great heads up.
 

1048576

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Wrong. Knowing pot odds and reading your opponent's bets is 85% of the game. It's what smashers call "mind games." Knowing what's worth doing and when, mixing up your game and playing your opponent's hand, not yours.

Realistically, tells aren't only read by facial expressions or whatever. It's read by knowing your opponent's personality. In smash, players read their opponent by watching how they play. It's the same in poker.

Lixivium: Was it just you two playing? Nobody else was dealt hands? If so, the odds were almost even, with him being in the lead by a few percent before the flop. How much did you bet before the flop? Q10 isn't a great hand to bet more than 4x the pot with. If I was your opponent, I would've called anything other than an all-in preflop if it was heads up. After the flop, however, your opponent didn't play smart. He got lucky.
It's kind of like that, except there are so many fewer options. It's really like rock paper scissors. You can gain more money by being one step ahead, (picking rock when they throw scissors), but you can also lose more money by being two steps ahead (picking paper when they pick scissors,) so really, it's luck. You can either play tight and hope you get good cards, or you can play loose and hope your opponents get bad cards.

And I don't suck at poker or anything. I play online, in 8 person games, and my average rated place is 3.95

Normally I play tight at the beginning, and loose as the blinds rise. This works on moderately intelligent people who figure, "hey, he never played a hand in the beginning, he must be getting some cards." But then there are dumb people who are all "Yo I got top pair with a seven kicker. I can't lose" The dumb people beat me. So then I have to sit back and wait for a hand, which is luck.
 

Wobbles

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Numbers; online poker is so incredibly different from real life poker that they're not even worth comparing.

IRL a good player watches for tells like subtle glances at the chips, people who watch their hands for too long, people who suddenly look up, people whose faces betray what they have in their hand. You can't do that in online poker; you can only analyze the bids and the length of time they take to make decisions, all of which could mean ANYTHING. You can base it off the previous bidding patterns, yes, but anybody with a concept of mix-up would be difficult to read.

But yes, luck IS involved; but why do you think there are people who consistently make it to the end-stages of the World Series of Poker every year? They're really lucky? Like, super duper lucky?

Lix: I think, if you went all-in early on in the hand, it was a bad move unless he was trying to muscle you out of the pot. As the hand advanced the play would, statistically, become a better and better move as his odds of winning out against your hand become slimmer. The possibility for a loss is still there though, especially when he's got an Ace.

I don't know that much about poker though.
 

Lixivium

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Numbers:

Try playing poker with real people, especially people you know well. I guarantee it's a lot more fun and a lot less predictable than playing with bots online.

Wobbles:

I went all in AFTER the flop, when I thought I had a good chance of having the best hand; it didn't work out.

Jamminjohn is right. I couldn't tell you what it means if my friend blinks three times, then sniffles before making a bet. "Reading" somebody is more about knowing their personalities than interpreting their gestures.
 

jamminjohn

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It's kind of like that, except there are so many fewer options. It's really like rock paper scissors. You can gain more money by being one step ahead, (picking rock when they throw scissors), but you can also lose more money by being two steps ahead (picking paper when they pick scissors,) so really, it's luck. You can either play tight and hope you get good cards, or you can play loose and hope your opponents get bad cards.

And I don't suck at poker or anything. I play online, in 8 person games, and my average rated place is 3.95

Normally I play tight at the beginning, and loose as the blinds rise. This works on moderately intelligent people who figure, "hey, he never played a hand in the beginning, he must be getting some cards." But then there are dumb people who are all "Yo I got top pair with a seven kicker. I can't lose" The dumb people beat me. So then I have to sit back and wait for a hand, which is luck.
It's not "kind of" like that. It's it exactly. Rock/Paper/Scissors is way too simplified to be a realistic analogy. There are a lot more factors.

There are some general guidelines that should be followed simply because you don't have an unlimited chip stack so you have to play smart. Compare it to smash if you will. If you attack too often or blind, your opponent automatically has more options than you do because they can react accordingly. By waiting for the right moments to attack, it increases your chances of a good payout.

Loose players lose.
 

1048576

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I've played poker with people, too. I don't know when they are mixing up or not, and I'd probably have to lose a lot of money before I figure it out. Loose players win when the opponent's get bad cards. I've seen someone (Gus Hansen) just go all in every hand, and win, because nobody ever hit anything decent to call him with. Attack when the time is right is dumb advice. There is no way of knowing when the time is right. If I attack, and you have good cards, then I should have waited. If I attack, and you fold, then it was good strategy on my part. It's very difficult to know what someone is holding because of mixup games. I came in 8th today because there were two hands that could beat me, and my opponent had one of them. I guess I just suck at poker, huh?

Or I'm not psychic :)
 

Wobbles

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Numbers: Luck does have a factor; you have to know how to play those odds and know when somebody is playing smart or playing sneaky.

If you are familiar with poker tells, then "mixups" aren't nearly as important as facial expressions and subtle movements. If a player checks their cards then makes a quick eye movement to their chips, that has meaning depending on how they've played and how the hand is proceeding. How people stack their chips and wear their clothes is an indication of how they are likely to play. There are the obvious motions that people make to fake you out; you can usually ignore those because the ones that count are often unconscious.

It shouldn't surprise you that these things take time to learn. Also, loose players don't win when the opponent has bad cards, because a smart opponent knows when to fold and let the loose player's good hand go to waste. You need to coax people in gently when you have a good hand, and force them out if you have nothing. Or, just don't play when you have nothing; you can't lose what doesn't go into the pot.

If you want a quick look at the depth of the game, I recommend you watch Rounders. Actually, I recommend you watch it anyhow because it's a **** good movie. Ultimately though, you can't judge the depth of the game based on how you and your amateur friends play. The casual smash player doesn't really know why Fox is so good, or that Roy is actually a crappy character. Similarly, don't judge poker when you aren't familiar with its intricacies.
 

1048576

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Numbers: Luck does have a factor; you have to know how to play those odds and know when somebody is playing smart or playing sneaky.

If you are familiar with poker tells, then "mixups" aren't nearly as important as facial expressions and subtle movements. If a player checks their cards then makes a quick eye movement to their chips, that has meaning depending on how they've played and how the hand is proceeding. How people stack their chips and wear their clothes is an indication of how they are likely to play. There are the obvious motions that people make to fake you out; you can usually ignore those because the ones that count are often unconscious.

It shouldn't surprise you that these things take time to learn. Also, loose players don't win when the opponent has bad cards, because a smart opponent knows when to fold and let the loose player's good hand go to waste. You need to coax people in gently when you have a good hand, and force them out if you have nothing. Or, just don't play when you have nothing; you can't lose what doesn't go into the pot.

If you want a quick look at the depth of the game, I recommend you watch Rounders. Actually, I recommend you watch it anyhow because it's a **** good movie. Ultimately though, you can't judge the depth of the game based on how you and your amateur friends play. The casual smash player doesn't really know why Fox is so good, or that Roy is actually a crappy character. Similarly, don't judge poker when you aren't familiar with its intricacies.
Fair enough. One minor thing, though. A loose player's hand doesn't go to waste because he/she is bluffing, so all players have bad cards, but the loose players get blinds.

It sure feels a lot like luck when you get an autobust hand. I really haven't played *that* long and I've flopped an Ace-high flush and lost to a flopped straight flush. Ive run into Aces with Queens twice. My set lost to a better set. I've had A-9 with the flop A, A, 2 and lost to A-10. Not to mention all those times people win even though they're dominated. It takes no skill to lose A-10 to A-5. It's just luck. Poker has more luck than any game I've ever played, except maybe War. Maybe.
 

Mr.GAW

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@ Wobbles:

Well, you can't be too passive. When those blinds start getting big you better not be folding everytime you don't have AK.

Otherwise, I couldn't have put it better myself.
 

~N9NE~

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Big bump. I was going to start a thread, but searched and found this.

Lix, I would have made that play if it was heads up and I was short stacked, otherwise I would have just made a normal raise.

I play No limit a couple of times of month with my friends, £5 buy in, win quite often. My friends have a wide range of playing styles. Some like to bluff alot, and in doing so often make me fold the best hand, but their bluffing sometimes pays me off. Nothing's better then slow playing the nuts on the flop and it's worked for me before, but nothing's worse then getting beat on the river because you slow played it. Happened to me a couple of times.

I entered my first tournament a couple of weeks ago. £10 buy in, winner takes all £250. I played well, came fourth, got a couple guys out. Came to last four I was short stacked. I'm big blind. 2 guys fold, guy before me raises. I only have double the raise, so I move all in with A 9 unsuited. The guy calls, and turns over 7 2. I'm thinking great, I'm going to double up. Flop comes, the guy gets a 7 on the flop, a 2 on the turn and another 7 on the river, so I end up losing to 7's to 2's full lol. I felt sick lol.
 
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