Nintendo's First Samurai: Takamaru for SSB4 (Final Request: Ask the US HW devs to add Takamaru)

[TerminalMontage]

I wish I could personally tell Sakurai I ain't even mad about Takamaru and I'm happy with any decision he makes. Then give him a big ole' hug.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I have seen some hate towards Lucina because of Takamarus disconfirmation, and please guys don't do that. It makes Takamarus fan base look bad, and Lucina is a generally more popular and well-known character, so it doesn't really make sense to hate on her for Taka's assist status. It's not like they kicked him out of the roster for her, anyway.

I agree, stop with the Lucina hate because it really isn't worth it in the end. She's actually a pretty great character if you actually played Awakening and knew about her story.

I don't think it's Lucina's fault.
But I do think Sakurai can be pretty biased sometimes, and he HAS said that Takamaru would be a bit of a "generic" inclusion. Not even sure where I could find a source to back this up, but it was common knowledge back in 2006.

Now... he can find the time and effort to put in 4 characters from Fire Emblem, most of which rely on a single weapon to attack. But he still finds Takamaru generic, despite him having 4 different weapons, 3 of them having 3 varieties each, and two special attacks which could easily translate into Final Smashes.

So I'm at 2 theories here:

The negative one: Sakurai favors his personal likes, and Nintendo's biggest financial successes.

The positive one: Namco Bandai is apparently already preparing for SSB5, which means Sakurai would want to save SOME surprise character for said game, instead of rushing them all for SSB4. And wait for Takamaru to fuel hype for the Newcomer trailers for the next title.

I like to think it's the 2nd choice. Because we're going to run out of classic characters eventually, which is why he wouldn't add so many in the same game. :D

I'm so over Lucina already.

That's not a bad theory at all. I was wondering why he haven't add that many characters that existed before the Gamecube Era and realized that he's most likely saving such character for a better sequel that could blow out the game that we're getting soon. It actually makes sense since Sakurai must be aware that he's running out of legit Nintendo All-Stars to use and he thought that saving some of them would be the better option. Being an Assist at least make you pretty likely to become another candidate other than just being a collectible trophy (though Wario might be one great example of an exception).

 

[bksbestbwoy]

I don't think it's Lucina's fault.
But I do think Sakurai can be pretty biased sometimes, and he HAS said that Takamaru would be a bit of a "generic" inclusion. Not even sure where I could find a source to back this up, but it was common knowledge back in 2006.

Now... he can find the time and effort to put in 4 characters from Fire Emblem, most of which rely on a single weapon to attack. But he still finds Takamaru generic, despite him having 4 different weapons, 3 of them having 3 varieties each, and two special attacks which could easily translate into Final Smashes.

So I'm at 2 theories here:

The negative one: Sakurai favors his personal likes, and Nintendo's biggest financial successes.

The positive one: Namco Bandai is apparently already preparing for SSB5, which means Sakurai would want to save SOME surprise character for said game, instead of rushing them all for SSB4. And wait for Takamaru to fuel hype for the Newcomer trailers for the next title.

I like to think it's the 2nd choice. Because we're going to run out of classic characters eventually, which is why he wouldn't add so many in the same game. :D

I'm so over Lucina already.

News to me, can I get a source? Sakurai's always thought positively about his inclusion from the translated Q&As I've read mentioning the character. The only slight againt him previously was his region specific visibility and non-existance in the laarge majority of the world.

 

[Handy Man]

They are the same entity. Both when it comes to the franchise that they represent, and the character.

Ghostly Adventures Pac-Man is as close to the World Pac-Man as the Classic Pac-Man is to the World one. The only difference is that the character has been reworked in personality and canon...again.

"Toru Iwatani: Pac Man’s character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese–he is an innocent character. He hasn’t been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them. He’s indiscriminate because he’s naive. But he learns from experience that some people, like policemen, should have pistols and that he can’t eat just any pistol in sight."

This was his personality at first. But the Hanna Barbera cartoon, Pac-Man World 3, and Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures all have vastly different personalities from one another, and also all have different designs.

Along with that, non-Ghostly Adventures designs are being used even today. Pac-Man Monsters was released only four months ago. If that design's not close enough, then keep in mind that the typical World design was itself used only two years ago.

That makes this design of Pac-Man if it is a separate entity less retro than Other M's Samus.


I just explained above with Pac-Man, but even the design that Mega Man uses in Smash was used last March 1, 2010. Which is only about six months before Metroid: Other M. Seriously, look it up. If we're counting Mega Man (who was used last before World Pac-Man was) as our retro, then Ridley, King K. Rool, and Isaac would all be retro as well, with the King being the greatest offender, showing up last in 2008.

So, no, we do not have a retro right now. Neither of the third parties count even without arguing the Nintendo point. Neither of them fit the age criteria.

And before you argue Little Mac, his last game was May 18, 2009. And Nintendo themselves have on the website for that game that "Little Mac is back!!". So, not retro.


TL:DR, known better for older games =/= retro, redesigns are not different characters, and King K. Rool is more retro than Pac-Man, Mega Man, or Little Mac.

You made some solid points, so I don't really feel like arguing most of them. However, just know that there weren't any retro characters in Smash N64, so it's not a tradition or pattern to have a retro character in every Smash game. We could easily not get any retro characters at all.

Also, I wasn't going to argue about Little Mac, since I love all of the Punch-Out games and he's the only newcomer I reallly wanted. Ironically, I get the feeling that if that Wii game never came out for him, he wouldn't be in Smash. They even based his look in Smash 4 off of the Wii appearance, while in Brawl, he roughly looked like he did in the NES game. After all, Pit only got in Brawl because the GBA port of Kid Icarus did pretty well in sales. Takamaru could've also been playable if he got another brand new game in his series.

 

[Pacack]

You made some solid points, so I don't really feel like arguing most of them. However, just know that there weren't any retro characters in Smash N64, so it's not a tradition or pattern to have a retro character in every Smash game. We could easily not get any retro characters at all.

Well, 64 was kind of focusing on including the big names of Nintendo first. So it's understandable that there was no retro. However, I don't think we're getting a retro this time around. I'm not really arguing that.

Also, I wasn't going to argue about Little Mac, since I love all of the Punch-Out games and he's the only newcomer I reallly wanted. Ironically, I get the feeling that if that Wii game never came out for him, he wouldn't be in Smash. They even based his look in Smash 4 off of the Wii appearance, while in Brawl, he roughly looked like he did in the NES game. After all, Pit only got in Brawl because the GBA port of Kid Icarus did pretty well in sales. Takamaru could've also been playable if he got another brand new game in his series.

You know what this tells me? If the Virtual Console release of the Mysterious Murasame Castle does fairly well, that might influence Sakurai to include him in a later game/as DLC.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I have seen some hate towards Lucina because of Takamarus disconfirmation, and please guys don't do that. It makes Takamarus fan base look bad, and Lucina is a generally more popular and well-known character, so it doesn't really make sense to hate on her for Taka's assist status. It's not like they kicked him out of the roster for her, anyway.

To be fair, I hated Lucina before Takamaru's disconfirmation. But I hate her more now; and here's why: Sakurai chose to put 2 characters who have appeared in one game over one who is the protagonist and has had cameos in 4 other games since then. Robin I can see, as he's a major character and is unique. But Lucina on the other hand is a almost 100% straight up clone character. Rather than take the time to make Takamaru, a character who would both be unique and represent a retro time, and has had many more appearances than Lucina, and has generally much more popularity (just read the internet, he has much more Smash popularity than Lucina did), he chose the easy way out and over-repped a franchise by giving us another Marth. At least with Roy, he looked different enough and played ever so slightly different enough to be separate, but Lucina is nothing more than alt material.

 

[Ganonthegreat]

Lucina didn't take the space from anybody though, her inclusion was so basic as a Marth costume that had the sweet spot removed. So her inclusion should more be considered as a bonus rather than stealing a slot.

 

[TORNADO BUS DRIVER]

To be fair, I hated Lucina before Takamaru's disconfirmation. But I hate her more now; and here's why: Sakurai chose to put 2 characters who have appeared in one game over one who is the protagonist and has had cameos in 4 other games since then. Robin I can see, as he's a major character and is unique. But Lucina on the other hand is a almost 100% straight up clone character. Rather than take the time to make Takamaru, a character who would both be unique and represent a retro time, and has had many more appearances than Lucina, and has generally much more popularity (just read the internet, he has much more Smash popularity than Lucina did), he chose the easy way out and over-repped a franchise by giving us another Marth. At least with Roy, he looked different enough and played ever so slightly different enough to be separate, but Lucina is nothing more than alt material.

no.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Lucina didn't take the space from anybody though, her inclusion was so basic as a Marth costume that had the sweet spot removed. So her inclusion should more be considered as a bonus rather than stealing a slot.

I didn't say she stole the slot. I said the slot could've been used for a much better character rather than a pathetic clone.

 

[Pacack]

To be fair, I hated Lucina before Takamaru's disconfirmation. But I hate her more now; and here's why: Sakurai chose to put 2 characters who have appeared in one game over one who is the protagonist and has had cameos in 4 other games since then. Robin I can see, as he's a major character and is unique. But Lucina on the other hand is a almost 100% straight up clone character. Rather than take the time to make Takamaru, a character who would both be unique and represent a retro time, and has had many more appearances than Lucina, and has generally much more popularity (just read the internet, he has much more Smash popularity than Lucina did), he chose the easy way out and over-repped a franchise by giving us another Marth. At least with Roy, he looked different enough and played ever so slightly different enough to be separate, but Lucina is nothing more than alt material.

This is the problem with your thinking. Lucina was a bonus. Not having Lucina would not have gotten us a different character in her place. She was not chosen over anyone. Especially not Takamaru.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

This is the problem with your thinking. Lucina was a bonus. Not having Lucina would not have gotten us a different character in her place. She was not chosen over anyone. Especially not Takamaru.

But she's not a bonus. There's still time before release; Sakurai could've said no to Lucina and added Takamaru instead.

 

[Spazzy_D]

But she's not a bonus. There's still time before release; Sakurai could've said no to Lucina and added Takamaru instead.

She was almost a costume and she had very little development time because of that. Are you saying you wanted Takamaru as a Marth clone?

 

[Souldin]

But she's not a bonus. There's still time before release; Sakurai could've said no to Lucina and added Takamaru instead.

No, I'm pretty sure given what Sakurai said in the Famitsu interview that Lucina is a bonus. He even notes how Lucina was lucky to even have her own slot; she was being made as a skin so when development shifted to making into her own character slot, they already had her model, attack animations, and voicing sorted. If they didn't include Lucina as her own character the saved amount of development time wouldn't have been enough to make Takamaru into a playable character.

 

[Pacack]

But she's not a bonus. There's still time before release; Sakurai could've said no to Lucina and added Takamaru instead.

I'm not sure if you understand this, but a single clone character takes about a sixth the work of a full character (going by Melee's six clones over Dedede). In fact, it's probably even less with Lucina, since she looks to be nearly identical to Marth except for the lack of a tipper.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

She was almost a costume and she had very little development time because of that. Are you saying you wanted Takamaru as a Marth clone?

No; I'm saying that he could've used the time he had left to create a unique fighter rather than a ****ty clone.

 

[Pacack]

No; I'm saying that he could've used the time he had left to create a unique fighter rather than a ****ty clone.

It doesn't work like that. Do you think a unique character is as easy to create as a clone? That's just not the case. If anything, not having Lucina could've gotten us something like Dr. Mario or Dark Pit. Nothing more.

 

[Spazzy_D]

No; I'm saying that he could've used the time he had left to create a unique fighter rather than a ****ty clone.

It's not the same amount of effort, not even close. The only support group that should be salty over Lucina is Roy. I hope she does have at least some physical differences (in weight and speed) as compared to Marth, though. Roy felt like his own character because of those type of differences, as much as people like to think it Roy was more then just Marth with a different sweet spot and fire.

Anyway, it was pretty much Lucina or nothing.... maybe another "****ty clone" if anything.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

It doesn't work like that. Do you think a unique character is as easy to create as a clone? That's just not the case. If anything, not having Lucina could've gotten us something like Dr. Mario or Dark Pit. Nothing more.

No; I don't. But I think he could've already done it. When Lucina was revealed, we had about 3 1/2-4 months left till release. That's plenty of time to make one more. I would've rather had another delay and a unique new fighter (I.E. Takamaru) than get it by the scheduled time and get Lucina (and any other ****ty clones as well)

 

[Pacack]

No; I don't. But I think he could've already done it. When Lucina was revealed, we had about 3 1/2-4 months left till release. That's plenty of time to make one more. I would've rather had another delay and a unique new fighter (I.E. Takamaru) than get it by the scheduled time and get Lucina (and any other ****ty clones as well)

Did you forget that the game was already delayed for other reasons? Basically all they did with Lucina was give her a slot and remove a tipper.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Did you forget that the game was already delayed for other reasons? Basically all they did with Lucina was give her a slot and remove a tipper.

But they didn't remove a tipper.

Also, I said "another delay"

 

[Spazzy_D]

Here. think of it this way: you are at a restaurant and you order a steak and notice it comes with a side of asparagus.

You want to substitute the the asparagus (Lucina) that came with the steak (Robin) with a lobster tail (Takamaru). The value exchange doesn't work that way. You can substitute it for a baked potato (Dark Pit) if you like, but the cost (in this case development time) of a lobster tail is too stiff in comparison to that of the asparagus.

 

[Oz37]

No; I'm saying that he could've used the time he had left to create a unique fighter rather than a ****ty clone.

Dude, you're either not understanding or ignoring what they're saying. The time/effort to make Lucina =/= the time/effort to make a unique character. You can't bake a ham in the same amount of time to make a ham sandwich. Lucina's inclusion doesn't affect other character development time because she's just a clone. She is basically a Marth skin with a slight change in mechanics and that got her a space on the CSS.

EDIT: @ Spazzy_D , I love that we both used food metaphors. ^__^

 

[SmilingMad]

But they didn't remove a tipper.

Also, I said "another delay"

I'm not willing to wait another month or two for a character.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I'm not willing to wait another month or two for a character.

That's what DLC is for. Anyway, I wonder what effect this will have on other highly requested Japanese characters. We might have a riot on our hands if Shulk doesn't make it at this rate.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Here. think of it this way: you are at a restaurant and you order a steak and notice it comes with a side of asparagus.

You want to substitute the the asparagus (Lucina) that came with the steak (Robin) with a lobster tail (Takamaru). The value exchange doesn't work that way. You can substitute it for a baked potato (Dark Pit) if you like, but the cost (in this case development time) of a lobster tail is too stiff in comparison to that of the asparagus.

I appreciate the food analogy, but. What I'm saying is that I would wait a little extra time for a unique character. Who would you rather have; Takamaru or Lucina? Would you rather the game have been delayed an extra month or two for Takamaru and no Lucina or get cloney-mc-clone-clone (Lucina) and get the game a month or two earlier, lacking Takamaru and possibly other unique fighters?

 

[Spazzy_D]

I appreciate the food analogy, but. What I'm saying is that I would wait a little extra time for a unique character. Who would you rather have; Takamaru or Lucina? Would you rather the game have been delayed an extra month or two for Takamaru and no Lucina or get cloney-mc-clone-clone (Lucina) and get the game a month or two earlier, lacking Takamaru and possibly other unique fighters?

I get what your saying, but Lucina is such a "cloney" clone that I doubt she took almost any time to make into her own character. They seemingly JUST changed the sweet spot on Marth's sword and gave him a different model. The model and voice work were going to be done for the costume anyway (and I doubt you would complain about her being a costume) so she probably took maybe half the work a regular clone would have taken. If the game was delayed two month to add Takamaru, Lucina would likely STILL be in the game, because that's how easy she was to implement.

 

[Souldin]

I appreciate the food analogy, but. What I'm saying is that I would wait a little extra time for a unique character. Who would you rather have; Takamaru or Lucina? Would you rather the game have been delayed an extra month or two for Takamaru and no Lucina or get cloney-mc-clone-clone (Lucina) and get the game a month or two earlier, lacking Takamaru and possibly other unique fighters?

If they had delayed the game as you are describing here then they could add a unique character and include the lucky addition Lucina at the same time so it'd still not be a case of Takamaru vs. Lucina.

Also, the lack of Takamaru actually increases the chances for quite a few of my most wanted characters, as I happen to want quite a few retro characters who were considered less likely to get in than Takamaru.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I get what your saying, but Lucina is such a "cloney" clone that I doubt she took almost any time to make into her own character. They seemingly JUST changed the sweet spot on Marth's sword and gave him a different model. The model and voice work were going to be done for the costume anyway (and I doubt you would complain about her being a costume) so she probably took maybe half the work a regular clone would have taken. If the game was delayed two month to add Takamaru, Lucina would likely STILL be in the game, because that's how easy she was to implement.

I don't really like Lucina to begin with. I wouldn't complain at an alt; but I wouldn't really care either.
Regardless the point still stands; would you rather have a little delay and get a totally awesome character or just get it at scheduled time and miss out?

 

[Souldin]

I don't really like Lucina to begin with. I wouldn't complain at an alt; but I wouldn't really care either.
Regardless the point still stands; would you rather have a little delay and get a totally awesome character or just get it at scheduled time and miss out?

I would say delay, but there are so many amazing and awesome characters they could add that the game would likely have to be delayed to near infinity... not taking into account the limitations of data. Next SSB I'm going into the character predictions with a top 50 most wanted list, and it wasn't all too hard to fill out that many characters I think would be cool additions to SSB (that's whilst including only 1st and 2nd party Nintendo characters).

Also, I'm grateful to see Lucina as her own character rather than an alternative skin. I don't care for Lucina or much of Fire Emblem but I despise making other characters into alternative skins for different characters far more than any clone addition. So Lucina having her own slot is better in my opinion than the alternative.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

not taking into account the limitations of data.

The 3DS Version could hold almost all of Brawl's data, and that includes the majority of the SSE. Since we have no story mode to worry about now; the limitation of data is of no concern.

Also, I'm grateful to see Lucina as her own character rather than an alternative skin. I don't care for Lucina or much of Fire Emblem but I despise making other characters into alternative skins for different characters far more than any clone addition. So Lucina having her own slot is better in my opinion than the alternative.

What worries me about Lucina is that this somewhat opens the door for other god-awful clones (and I say this as a Melee Doc Secondary Main) like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit; who both belong as alts. Smash isn't 100% canon, so Dr. Mario using the FLUDD isn't that big of a deal.

Answers bolded.

 

[Skyfox2000]

So how well did Mysterious Murasame Castle do In sales in the GBA Famicom series. Was Takamara even a trophy in Melee/Brawl?

 

[Souldin]

Answers bolded.

I would say delay, but there are so many amazing and awesome characters they could add that the game would likely have to be delayed to near infinity... not taking into account the limitations of data.

The matter of data limitations is to do with how I noted that there are so many amazing and awesome characters they could have if they were willing to delay the game to add more of them that it would go forever/reach the limits of data. I did note in that exact same post that I've easily been able to make a top 50 most wanted characters list before.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

So how well did Mysterious Murasame Castle do In sales in the GBA Famicom series. Was Takamaru even a trophy in Melee/Brawl?

Fixed. No, he was not; he had a sticker in Brawl and a song in Brawl. Nothing more, unfortunately.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

So how well did Mysterious Murasame Castle do In sales in the GBA Famicom series. Was Takamara even a trophy in Melee/Brawl?

Everything from the GBA Famicom series sold equally as decent, while it was heavily criticized and sold poorly in America (obviously with no Murasame Castle in sight).

 

[ihskeyp]

To be fair, I hated Lucina before Takamaru's disconfirmation. But I hate her more now; and here's why: Sakurai chose to put 2 characters who have appeared in one game over one who is the protagonist and has had cameos in 4 other games since then. Robin I can see, as he's a major character and is unique. But Lucina on the other hand is a almost 100% straight up clone character. Rather than take the time to make Takamaru, a character who would both be unique and represent a retro time, and has had many more appearances than Lucina, and has generally much more popularity (just read the internet, he has much more Smash popularity than Lucina did), he chose the easy way out and over-repped a franchise by giving us another Marth. At least with Roy, he looked different enough and played ever so slightly different enough to be separate, but Lucina is nothing more than alt material.

Lucina didn't steal Taka's place because she wasn't even originally planned... Takamaru was most likely already given assist status when Sakurai decides to throw in Lucina. Just so you know, Lucina is more popular than Robin in the Fire Emblem community, and you referred to robin as 'important' but you might've forgotten that without Lucina, Chrom would've been killed in like chapter 6 or something, and the entire time-traveling part of the game (which is basically what awakenings plot becomes) wouldn't exist. And just so you know, smashboards is not a great way to compare popularity.... Lucina actually far more popular than takamaru, she's the most popular awakening character, she just wasn't expected for smash, so wasn't discussed on smashboards a lot. Takamaru on the other hand is pretty much a 'forgotten Nintendo character' other than making minor appearances (this is referring to when the roster was decided, I know he's getting a remake or something) and is pretty much lucky to have even have gotten in the game at all. I know sakurai likes retros, but there are MANY to choose from, so takamaru was never a shoe-in and always had pretty minuscule chances.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Lucina didn't steal Taka's place because she wasn't even originally planned... Takamaru was most likely already given assist status when Sakurai decides to throw in Lucina. Just so you know, Lucina is more popular than Robin in the Fire Emblem community, and you referred to robin as 'important' but you might've forgotten that without Lucina, Chrom would've been killed in like chapter 6 or something, and the entire time-traveling part of the game (which is basically what awakenings plot becomes) wouldn't exist. And just so you know, smashboards is not a great way to compare popularity.... Lucina actually far more popular than takamaru, she's the most popular awakening character, she just wasn't expected for smash, so wasn't discussed on smashboards a lot. Takamaru on the other hand is pretty much a 'forgotten Nintendo character' other than making minor appearances (this is referring to when the roster was decided, I know he's getting a remake or something) and is pretty much lucky to have even have gotten in the game at all. I know sakurai likes retros, but there are MANY to choose from, so takamaru was never a shoe-in and always had pretty minuscule chances.

I NEVER said she stole it. I said that Takamaru should've gotten her slot.

 

[ihskeyp]

I NEVER said she stole it. I said that Takamaru should've gotten her slot.

There's no such thing as taking or getting 'slots'. There is no limitation on the number of characters based on 'slots'. Sakurai does not lay out what he wants the select screen to look like and decide who to add and cut based off of that. The whole misunderstanding with slots in smash started in here/gamefaqs and never ends! A character could take development time away from others, but not a slot, as sakurai adds as many characters as he can based on time, not on slots. Lucina didn't take anyone's slot, and in fact took very little development time cknaidwring she's a clone, so I think you should find another character to complain about like miis who probably took a ton of time with the costumes, three move sets, and customize-ability.

 

[TheSoraKid]

I NEVER said she stole it. I said that Takamaru should've gotten her slot.

Buddy, I think you're just blaming other characters' inclusions because characters that YOU want didn't make it in.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Buddy, I think you're just blaming other characters' inclusions because characters that YOU want.didn't make it in.

Like how people blamed R.O.B. for getting in over Krystal and Ridley post-Brawl. Good times, good times indeed.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Buddy, I think you're just blaming other characters' inclusions because characters that YOU want didn't make it in.

I am not. Lucina is a clone. There was no need for her especially when she's a clone. I'd like her a bit more if she was unique, but I never liked her. All I'm saying is that rather than choose a unique character to add, he added a clone and said no to the unique one, that's all I'm saying.