Nintendo, Online Servers, and Taunt Parties...

[nLiM8d]

I think its safe to say that the Smash Brothers franchise has accumulated enough of the good and faithful to the extent that we are now interested what new ways we might be playing the game.

My Preamble

One lonely Saturday evening I decided to check out WiFi after several months of ignoring that feature altogether. When the match started, everyone was standing still and remained that way for several seconds. Reasonably, I reset the game and entered back into the mode, same ****, what the hell's going on here? After the next match, there was one other person out of us four willing to battle. We duked it out for a little bit, after a while I guess he lost interest and proceeded to attack the seemingly NPC's. It was at that point that the non-participants attempted to fight back, at which point I found myself teaming up with the other guy in spite of the two players who weren't (initially) contributing to the brawl. It wasn't hard to piece together what was going on, Brawl's online had become such a joke that the mere action of joining a match in that mode had become a game.
/end

So talk technical to me guys, what can we assess about the current state of things, what do we know and what can we come to expect as a result of that? Nintendo designs their games in such a way that things like DLC and social networking are like discovering the wheel. I'm surprised that at the very least, New Super Mario Bros U doesn't have some sort of online multiplayer (If I'm not mistaken). On the flipside, Mario Kart is running strong with various different modes and features involved in online play.

Discuss what makes Smash Brothers different. Fighting games in general have numerous precautions that ensure that they can deliver a nearly lag free experience. While this isn't telling of the complexities involved in different in game modes and how servers interpret the robust data, I'd still like to know your interpretation of what Nintendo can pull off for the sake of this kind of game matched with new hardware. I'd like to know what that might look like.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

I want separate modes for 1v1, 2v2, and 3/4P FFA so I don't always have to be in a 4 player FFA if I want to do something else. Also, if there are two people joining online from one system, don't let them do 3 player FFA since they'll inevitably gang up on the stray online player and just 1v1 afterwards.

I also want an ELO system so I'm not put in a game with a seven year old who got the game for his birthday.

I also want the ability to, if you're in a private party with friends, play online Special Brawl with any features you want.

I also want Nintendo to release a "Replay Renderer" for PC so I can save my online replays to SD or USB and render them to video on my computer rather than having to buy a capture card or do a crappy screen recording with a camera.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Might as well have Taunt Party Mode.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I want separate modes for 1v1, 2v2, and 3/4P FFA so I don't always have to be in a 4 player FFA if I want to do something else. Also, if there are two people joining online from one system, don't let them do 3 player FFA since they'll inevitably gang up on the stray online player and just 1v1 afterwards.

I also want an ELO system so I'm not put in a game with a seven year old who got the game for his birthday.

I also want the ability to, if you're in a private party with friends, play online Special Brawl with any features you want.

I also want Nintendo to release a "Replay Renderer" for PC so I can save my online replays to SD or USB and render them to video on my computer rather than having to buy a capture card or do a crappy screen recording with a camera.

ELO? There's better the ELO out there, ever heard of glicko-2? Probably the best equation for ranking people there is...

But it terms of this, an online ranking MIGHT be interesting or might not. PSASBR had online rankings and they were entirely a joke, people quitting on purpose to maintain scores, people with almost no skill just slaughtering players... It had to be designed VERY well to work well, but if it was I'd be down for it.

Same for the inviting a private party and to have what rules I want, that is a serious must.

 

[TigerBizNiz]

I think they should make players host an online room in the "With Anyone" mode, not just "Friend Matches". The host could accept certain players in a room and boot off anyone who's causing trouble or trolling. It's smart because you get all your competive players in one room and all your goofy taunters in another one. Oh, and it wouldn't hurt if I was able to add people I meet online to my friend roster.

 

[nLiM8d]

That's great, thanks for mentioning that, I totally forgot about how ranking systems would need to be managed. Reminds me of the 'BanHammer' from the days of Halo Reach (probably carried over to Halo 4).

It's smart because you get all your competive players in one room and all your goofy taunters in another one

I'm over here laughing my ass off, you guys are making my day. I wonder how the servers would chose the host in this game, well considering that the console is entirely WiFi based (if that even matters, its all copper in the end).

 

[XavierSylfaen]

ELO? There's better the ELO out there, ever heard of glicko-2? Probably the best equation for ranking people there is...

But it terms of this, an online ranking MIGHT be interesting or might not. PSASBR had online rankings and they were entirely a joke, people quitting on purpose to maintain scores, people with almost no skill just slaughtering players... It had to be designed VERY well to work well, but if it was I'd be down for it.

Same for the inviting a private party and to have what rules I want, that is a serious must.

Just make it non-visible and only for matchmaking purposes.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Just make it non-visible and only for matchmaking purposes.

This. I know that Sakurai didn't want a ranking system so people wouldn't feel bad, but why not just make it invisible? He is so awesome and yet sometimes I just don't understand his reasoning.

 

[[Corn]]

Honestly not many fighting games strive for good online, most go with input delay because it makes the game look like it isnt lagging. This is sad because lag effects fighting games the most.
Stuff like Mario Kart doesnt need pin point reactions really, so it works.

What I would like for SSB4 online is, Some form of playing with specific people using WII Tag or whatever, not just FFA and Teams add 1 vs 1 as an option, add a way to select previous options to get matched, and use Rollback Netcode.

To be honest, I dont care about the online features of SSB4, I wont learn much from playing online compared to playing with friends offline, as no online system is perfect. I will buy the game soley to play with my friends offline and for me to practice with. Brawls online was terrible because it had so much delay, if melee would of had any sort of delay, No more L cancels or Wavedashing.

 

[TewnLeenk]

I want a 2v2 online mode where my buddy can come over and we play on a team against someone else and their friend online.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

I want a 2v2 online mode where my buddy can come over and we play on a team against someone else and their friend online.

This was present in MKWii. Was it not in Brawl? I never used Brawl online save for like a month after release.

 

[PadWarrior]

I'd like:
Spectator mode
1v1
2v2
Free For All
A mode where you can follow a player
Replay mode
Ranked and Unranked
Online training

 

[nLiM8d]

I'm not 100% crazy for an invisible setting, but I can see why it was implemented. When Sakurai established this setup, he overlooked that while he was taking a precaution for the good of one camp, he was restricting a hefty amount of possibilities for another group.

There are players out that you'll meet that gave you a really rewarding match. What if you ever want to play against that person again? Sorry, not possible.

1v1 matches were simply not a priority in the outcomes that Brawl had to offer.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

I'm not 100% crazy for an invisible setting, but I can see why it was implemented. When Sakurai established this setup, he overlooked that while he was taking a precaution for the good of one camp, he was restricting a hefty amount of possibilities for another group.

There are players out that you'll meet that gave you a really rewarding match. What if you ever want to play against that person again? Sorry, not possible.

1v1 matches were simply not a priority in the outcomes that Brawl had to offer.

Now you will most likely just be able to send them a message on Miiverse.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Just make it non-visible and only for matchmaking purposes.

You have my 100% support. Invisible and for matchmaking would be perfect.

And PLEASE allow match making between friends, and the ability to do so with your own rules. PSAS did a good job of setting that up to be ran, that I can give them. The host sets up the rules they want, then they invite the person they want to play. And easy and effective system.

 

[Ray Robo]

I wouldn't mind for a ranking system as long as there was a competitive ruleset ( no items, 3 stocks, 8 minute timer, etc). However, I don't think that a ranking system would be on Sakurai's wish list considering that he gets depressed over taking out a character. He just doesn't want people to feel bad. Invisible? Sure, but I don't see a competitive ruleset fitting in either.

 

[smashbrolink]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the online for Smash 4, aside from better connectivity, won't change much from how it was in Brawl.
That way I can't possibly be disappointed, and anything more that comes my way will be a guaranteed nice surprise.
Still, I hope to hear more about the online mode sooner rather than later....

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the online for Smash 4, aside from better connectivity, won't change much from how it was in Brawl.
That way I can't possibly be disappointed, and anything more that comes my way will be a guaranteed nice surprise.
Still, I hope to hear more about the online mode sooner rather than later....

Defensive pessimism aside, I don't think it will change much from brawl aside from being a crap ton less laggy and having a few more options in terms of rule set. I just don't see him doing something like a ranking system, or anything very sophisticated for that matter.

 

[[Corn]]

I dont understand the want for a ranking system at all.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I dont understand the want for a ranking system at all.

People enjoy "solid evidence" that they are the best player.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

People enjoy "solid evidence" that they are the best player.

Heaven's no do I want that. I just want to fight other people at roughly my skill level... which honestly isn't that high. But if you play people too good or too bad it is not fun.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Heaven's no do I want that. I just want to fight other people at roughly my skill level... which honestly isn't that high. But if you play people to good or too bad it can not be fun.

Well for matchmaking that's not a bad idea, but it had better be based on more then w/l ratio... And I get how that works. In PSAS they did just a horrible jobs we'd have BRAND NEW players fighting the highest level people in matches at random... It was depressing.

 

[[Corn]]

People enjoy "solid evidence" that they are the best player.

In a nintendo game mainly pitched as a family friendly fightning/party game?? What is the world coming to.

 

[LiteralGrill]

In a nintendo game mainly pitched as a family friendly fightning/party game?? What is the world coming to.

That game still has people who play it competitively too, those people wanna see that I guess. Though being matched against people of similar skill levels would too be a good thing.

 

[[Corn]]

That game still has people who play it competitively too, those people wanna see that I guess. Though being matched against people of similar skill levels would too be a good thing.

You arent going to learn much online compared to offline, though I suppose this will vary based on lag.

My main point being, I wouldnt be unhappy in the slightest if the game came out and everything was balanced and fun yet they didnt even put an Online option. Online to me means nearly nothing, as smash tends to be a game meant to be played nearly completely offline. The only online things I would think they would put in would be random match making with rulesets and ability to play with friends. It isnt a selling point of the series.

But thats half opinionated.

 

[PadWarrior]

You arent going to learn much online compared to offline, though I suppose this will vary based on lag.

My main point being, I wouldnt be unhappy in the slightest if the game came out and everything was balanced and fun yet they didnt even put an Online option. Online to me means nearly nothing, as smash tends to be a game meant to be played nearly completely offline. The only online things I would think they would put in would be random match making with rulesets and ability to play with friends. It isnt a selling point of the series.

But thats half opinionated.

For some of us, online is the only option to play against other humans. I know for me, with my work schedule, and wife and child online is the best option for me.

 

[LiteralGrill]

For some of us, online is the only option to play against other humans. I know for me, with my work schedule, and wife and child online is the best option for me.

This is very true, and not everyone can always travel to locals because there aren't any near them or they can't manage to do to such things. I can only hope spectator mode exists so streaming of online tournaments could be more doable and more people might try to enter them who can't get to other events.

 

[PadWarrior]

This is very true, and not everyone can always travel to locals because there aren't any near them or they can't manage to do to such things. I can only hope spectator mode exists so streaming of online tournaments could be more doable and more people might try to enter them who can't get to other events.

I would love that so much. Wasn't there a post a while back mentioning the Miiverse having a tournament feature or something for games?

 

[[Corn]]

For some of us, online is the only option to play against other humans. I know for me, with my work schedule, and wife and child online is the best option for me.

I understand that, Nintendo just isnt that kind of company when it comes to online really. With it being free it will have some issues.

I have no issue of people wanting to play with friends/others online, that will be in. Just that I dont think this game warrents leaderboards or ranked matches unless suddenly Nintendos internet becomes amazing.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I would love that so much. Wasn't there a post a while back mentioning the Miiverse having a tournament feature or something for games?

I'm not sure, but just decent lobbies could make this VERY doable. or at least a decent invite and play system. Worse comes to worse, you do like PSAS usually did, one guy invited both players to a match, kills himself, and they fight on stream. Add a little time to the stock match to compensate and it works out well

 

[AGreatProcrastinator]

I dont understand the want for a ranking system at all.

Same here. Half of the time a fighting game features a ranking system the online experience turns into "raqequit before my glorious shiny number-thing becomes tarnished" mode. Smash Bros don't need that.

 

[TewnLeenk]

This was present in MKWii. Was it not in Brawl? I never used Brawl online save for like a month after release.

Nope not in Brawl unfortunately. All you could do in SSBB was 2v2 with random people or a free for all with random people. No two player online.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

You arent going to learn much online compared to offline, though I suppose this will vary based on lag.

My main point being, I wouldnt be unhappy in the slightest if the game came out and everything was balanced and fun yet they didnt even put an Online option. Online to me means nearly nothing, as smash tends to be a game meant to be played nearly completely offline. The only online things I would think they would put in would be random match making with rulesets and ability to play with friends. It isnt a selling point of the series.

But thats half opinionated.

...The reason people want lag-free online is not to play at competitive levels of Smash, as joyous as that would be if it were possible. The reality is that actual competitive players will take issue with things that aren't even related to the internet, such as wireless controllers. Any chance of interference, online or in the real world, is a turn-off. No, people want lag-free online so that they can have human players and friends to play with when no one is around in the real world. The online feature for Brawl cripples the gameplay to a degree that it isn't even enjoyable to play with friends online. But even at these less-intense levels, there are clearly visible differences in skill, and it would still be much more enjoyable to play against evenly skilled opponents.

 

[Starphoenix]

I've stated in the past that one of the biggest detriments to Super Smash Bros. Brawl's online system was not having a way to set matches by region. The most damning thing of all is Mario Kart Wii, which was released a few months later, managed to have this feature. This would have gone a long way in dealing with the issue of lag.

 

[Artsy Omni]

I haven't played any of Tekken in years, but I'm sure some of you have. How are the online modes in recent Tekken iterations? Is Namco good at keeping lag to a minimum?

 

[kackamee]

I haven't played any of Tekken in years, but I'm sure some of you have. How are the online modes in recent Tekken iterations? Is Namco good at keeping lag to a minimum?

Tekken Tag Tournament 2 had very smooth feeling online. I've only played it a couple times though.

EDIT: And I started taunt parties like the 2nd day I brawl came out in the US. It was just so fun to just sit there and taunt, then other people would join in, and if someone attacked you, you would all gang up on that person. It was all in good fun.

 

[RODO]

Sakurai can make a ranking system without upsetting people. Just make it to where it shows wins only. That way no one knows how much you've lost and you still have something to show off.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Sakurai can make a ranking system without upsetting people. Just make it to where it shows wins only. That way no one knows how much you've lost and you still have something to show off.

Ew...

People would see though that SO easily though... I mean think about it. It'd probably be announced they were doing it too. I think it'd make people feel almost worse...

 

[RODO]

Ew...

People would see though that SO easily though... I mean think about it. It'd probably be announced they were doing it too. I think it'd make people feel almost worse...

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. What is your reasoning for saying that?

 

[Deleted member]

I've stated in the past that one of the biggest detriments to Super Smash Bros. Brawl's online system was not having a way to set matches by region. The most damning thing of all is Mario Kart Wii, which was released a few months later, managed to have this feature. This would have gone a long way in dealing with the issue of lag.

This. Brawl's online was destroyed by lag, lag, lag and more lag and needs to be top priority for Sakurai to improve. I also hated the delay in movement which made the game that much harder to play online.