Nintendo: Items left on in official tournament to "level the playing field"

[Crispy4001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8SiTV14ylY

Basically he says that items were used as an effort to level the playing field for those who might have never played a Smash game, and because more people were familiar with playing with them on.


So in other words, they were included to give Smash virgins a chance to win over veterans.

 

[GhostAnime]

okay. your point?

 

[Zankoku]

Makes sense. That, along with the 1-minute time limit and completely random stage selection, is all obviously built to pretty much make the Brawl tournament a glorified lottery.

 

[6footninja]

that doesnt make that much sense though. Seeing as veterans can use the items as well

 

[AlphaZealot]

I think he is pointing to this as proof that items detract from skill.

 

[Crispy4001]

okay. your point?

To give a 'why' for something people have been wondering about ever since these tournaments got started.

Nothing wrong with that, right? Also found it interesting, because it was a different answer than I was expecting.

 

[TheDemonKing]

yeah it may give the noobs a chance but shouldn't the veterans know how to use the items just as well because they are veterans.

 

[Andromeda]

Aren't the more skilled players more deservable of winning?

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

Interesting... there thinking about making Smash Bros. Pay2Play

 

[Crispy4001]

I think he is pointing to this as proof that items detract from skill.

Well, we didn't need Nintendo to explain it to us. But I was suprised that the whole 'creators intent' debate never came up as reason. Maybe Nintendo doesn't feel that way?

 

[Crispy4001]

Isn't the more skilled players more deservable of winning?

I really don't think that was ever the point of this tournament. I think it's more just about building publicity and hype for the game.

 

[tirkaro]

Interesting... there thinking about making Smash Bros. Pay2Play

*le gasp*!
Could that be a small glimmer of hope for DLC?
that means there IS hope for more stage builder backgrounds! :O

 

[Crispy4001]

that doesnt make that much sense though. Seeing as veterans can use the items as well

A complete noob to smash would have more of a chance against a vet with items on than off. They'll still have little chance, but their odds are much greater that they'll get a lucky break.

And by vet in this case, I mean anyone well versed in Smash. Items player or not.

 

[Yuna]

He also lied.

(in response to how the rules were decided)
"Basically, we tried to model this tournament after other tournaments"

Yeah, what tournaments are those, buster?

It's also a Nintendo of America PR guy. It's not Sakurai himself. Or do you see Sakurai getting a phone call asking him how the tournament should be run? Since when do the companies that make games get to dictate the rules, anyway?

And he said so himself, the rules were made to leveling the playing field... i.e., they didn't want the best players to win! Is that what we want in competitive gaming?

It's funny how the moronic Destructiod.com interviewer talked about us "kids" as if we were something to be hated for wanting tournaments where skill is the deciding factor. I can't think of another competitive fighter where someone could say that and not get chewed out by whoever they're interviewing!

 

[6footninja]

A complete noob to smash would have more of a chance against a vet with items on than off. They'll still have little chance, but their odds are much greater that they'll get a lucky break.

And by vet in this case, I mean anyone well versed in Smash. Items player or not.

Yeah, true. It depends a little on luck though, with what items and where they fall. Because a vet with the "hammer o' death" isnt such a nice surprise for the "noob". It works both ways I suppose.


....vets with the hammer make me cry at night

 

[Crispy4001]

n/m disregard this

 

[masterspeaks]

Well, he was telling the truth I guess. Newcomers stand a slightly better chance of winning if a bomb drops on their veteran opponent than if items were off and the guaranteed loss against a decent camper.

 

[DraginHikari]

Most companies don't care about the existance of the metagame, that usually created by users not the company themselves. Nintendo being what they are simply weren't interested in Skill being the only factor, it was it's a promotional tournment, a publicity stunt more then anything else. By leaving all items on and stages it pretty much displayed the game in it's fullness, simply for the attempt to show off the game.

Tournment players almost always alter the intial setting in some way for the sake of putting skill first. Most companies don't take the time nor the effort to do the same thing. Expecting it to be that way with Nintendo's tournment should have been obivious wrong anyway.

 

[Takeshi245]

I think he is pointing to this as proof that items detract from skill.

Just about. The same's happening with the Gamestop tournaments.

 

[WoodyDave]

A skilled player should be able to prevent the other player from using to many items by getting to them first, or by not giving them the chance to use them.

/thread

 

[Yuna]

A skilled player should be able to prevent the other player from using to many items by getting to them first, or by not giving them the chance to use them.

/thread

Yes, because we're fast as lightning. Of course we can get to that bob-omb while across the stage when it spawns right next to our opponent. Or we can predict the future and not forwardsmash right when a bob-omb spawns above us and kills us.

Or we'll have the decency not to have just been smashed off-stage while a Smash Ball spawns right above our opponent's head.

 

[WoodyDave]

Yes, because we're fast as lightning. Of course we can get to that bob-omb while across the stage when it spawns right next to our opponent. Or we can predict the future and not forwardsmash right when a bob-omb spawns above us and kills us.

Or we'll have the decency not to have just been smashed off-stage while a Smash Ball spawns right above our opponent's head.

The chance of a bomb to spawn on top of you is very very very small

Bombs thrown at you can be dodged

Smash balls take multiple hits to grab, which gives plenty of time to try and get it yourself. The fact that you pulled this one out shows something about your game knowledge.

 

[-Linko-]

yet the tourneyidiots vs casualidiots flamebattle begin...

 

[Yuna]

The chance of a bomb to spawn on top of you is very very very small

Bombs thrown at you can be dodged

Smash balls take multiple hits to grab, which gives plenty of time to try and get it yourself. The fact that you pulled this one out shows something about your game knowledge.

Must we go through this every single time? With all aerials having a chance at grabbing items now, items could screw up combos.

Exploding containers/bob-ombs/other things that don't help you spawning above you isn't that rare. Especially not if they're all on (I doubt Gamestop turned certain items off).

They can be dodged every time... but only if the thrower is an idiot. If they're smart enough, they can nail you with it. And win due to luck. It happens. I know plenty of casual players who's not so incompetent as to randomly throw bob-ombs the minute they grab one. And let's say it's a match between me and Ken. I'm pretty good. Ken's amazing. But I might win if enough items are on my side. Is that fair?

Smash Balls take several hits, but how long does it take to recover if you get Fsmashed at 80%? Long enough for 3 hits (I've never needed more than 3 hits to open a Smash ball) I bet. I've played the game, have you?

 

[Chaosblade77]

He also lied.

(in response to how the rules were decided)
"Basically, we tried to model this tournament after other tournaments"!

He mentioned the NCAA to further explain that comment, in terms of how the brackets are set up... but it's still not a good comparison. You don't see people throwing things onto the field in football games (American or not) that the teams use to win.



Anyway, I don't think it's that big of a deal considering what Nintendo has done to their games and what image they are trying to have. If this tournament only appealed to the hardcore crowd they were discussing, it wouldn't look as good.

Also, if an official Nintendo tournament did not use items, people who are debating buying the game may take it negatively that Nintendo did not use items.

Regardless of what the PR director said, I don't think it's meant to be a serious tournament, their goal is to advertise the game.

And if they are considering Pay and Play for Brawl that is a good thing. Wonder what features they would offer?

 

[WoodyDave]

Must we go through this every single time? With all aerials having a chance at grabbing items now, items could screw up combos.

Exploding containers/bob-ombs/other things that don't help you spawning above you isn't that rare. Especially not if they're all on (I doubt Gamestop turned certain items off).

They can be dodged every time... but only if the thrower is an idiot. If they're smart enough, they can nail you with it. And win due to luck. It happens. I know plenty of casual players who's not so incompetent as to randomly throw bob-ombs the minute they grab one. And let's say it's a match between me and Ken. I'm pretty good. Ken's amazing. But I might win if enough items are on my side. Is that fair?

Smash Balls take several hits, but how long does it take to recover if you get Fsmashed at 80%? Long enough for 3 hits (I've never needed more than 3 hits to open a Smash ball) I bet. I've played the game, have you?

Yes, actually, i'm playing as I type this

I have yet to have a bomb spawn on me

I'm pretty sure you wouldnt be on the field enough to grab items if you were playing Ken

And smash balls take 3 hits. The fact that they fly around the screen at rocket speed gives you plenty of time to chase them.

Also, tripping is stupid and should be removed. Its gonna suck on a no-items match when you trip and lose stocks because of it...its already happend.

 

[Sliq]

ITT someone with 1 months experience knows more than other people.

 

[kr3wman]

I don't really care much 'bout the items, but P2P?

****.

 

[Ced The Lad]

He mentioned the NCAA to further explain that comment, in terms of how the brackets are set up... but it's still not a good comparison. You don't see people throwing things onto the field in football games (American or not) that the teams use to win.

That would be hilarious and would make great television. Imagine someone throwing a bat into the pitch in a soccer match. A person would then use it to maim *everyone* on the other team including the goalie. I'd never have to complain about a European flop ever again!

Back to the topic, it's no surprise really. This goes hand in hand with the lack of demos in most gamestops. The controllers used also follows the same deal. But the concept alone is half the battle. People who have played melee and 64 before will have an advantage; casual players or competitive. All we can do is hope something like the Lyn and Waluigi assist trophies aren't used against us.

 

[Yuna]

Yes, actually, i'm playing as I type this

I have yet to have a bomb spawn on me

"Cancer doesn't hit that many people, I guess I don't have to worry about it."

If it can happen, it will happen. How many tournaments aren't held each year in, say, the US? If at just every third one of these, someone died or somehow lost to a lucky itemspawn like an exploding container or a bob-omb spawning above them while they couldn't do anything to not set it off or if it spawned right next to their opponents, that's already too many times!

At every tournament, a whole bunch of games are played. There are bound to be a lot of matches screwed up by items. Also, we're not talking about merely as if a new player was version Ken, it's enough if two mildly low leveled players have it happen to them as long as one was clearly better. It's even worse in a close game where either side could happen because one side would win due to sheer blind luck the other side could do nothing about!

I'm pretty sure you wouldnt be on the field enough to grab items if you were playing Ken

Yeah, because Ken knows magic. I'm sure he can neutralize lucky item spawns. He'll just have a greater chance than me at making up for a lucky item spawn.

And smash balls take 3 hits. The fact that they fly around the screen at rocket speed gives you plenty of time to chase them.

Depends on what you hit them with and how. And if your opponent is far enough away from the edge, you can grab it before they make it back.

Also, tripping is stupid and should be removed. Its gonna suck on a no-items match when you trip and lose stocks because of it...its already happend.

Why only in "no items"-matches? Because with items, there are more random factors to screw the match up?

 

[Rhubarbo]

I think it was a good idea on Nintendo's behalf. Truth be told though, the noobs will get owned by my Ray Gun !

 

[Necrochild313]

It seemed like leveling the playing field was actually behind many of the design decisions of the game as well, which to be honest I don't mind so much, nobody would ever play Melee with me unless I traveled because they became fancy punching bags.

Now I can see some people upset that in a pure competitive environment (such as this tourney) playing fields are being leveled, but I think much of people's disdain for items stems from them not using them as much, as those who are practiced with items are undoubtedly better than noobs, perhaps we've set our own handicap in a situation like this.

 

[Yuna]

That would be hilarious and would make great television. Imagine someone throwing a bat into the pitch in a soccer match. A person would then use it to maim *everyone* on the other team including the goalie. I'd never have to complain about a European flop ever again!

Back to the topic, it's no surprise really. This goes hand in hand with the lack of demos in most gamestops. The controllers used also follows the same deal. But the concept alone is half the battle. People who have played melee and 64 before will have an advantage; casual players or competitive. All we can do is hope something like the Lyn and Waluigi assist trophies aren't used against us.

I've made the analogy of Soccer where you'd have people randomly chucking banana peels onto the field, where bludgeoning tools (not hard and scarring) would be randomly thrown in, where an item would be thrown in whose effect would depend on which player picks it up, etc., etc.

So far, no one's refuted or even replied to it.

Anyway, I was under the impression that Waluigi sucks. I haven't actually been hit by him. My friend got him and all I had to do was jump around and avoid him ever getting close to me.

 

[kr3wman]

"Cancer doesn't hit that many people, I guess I don't have to worry about it."

If it can happen, it will happen. How many tournaments aren't held each year in, say, the US? If at just every third one of these, someone died or somehow lost to a lucky itemspawn like an exploding container or a bob-omb spawning above them while they couldn't do anything to not set it off or if it spawned right next to their opponents, that's already too many times!

At every tournament, a whole bunch of games are played. There are bound to be a lot of matches screwed up by items. Also, we're not talking about merely as if a new player was version Ken, it's enough if two mildly low leveled players have it happen to them as long as one was clearly better. It's even worse in a close game where either side could happen because one side would win due to sheer blind luck the other side could do nothing about!


Yeah, because Ken knows magic. I'm sure he can neutralize lucky item spawns. He'll just have a greater chance than me at making up for a lucky item spawn.


Depends on what you hit them with and how. And if your opponent is far enough away from the edge, you can grab it before they make it back.


Why only in "no items"-matches? Because with items, there are more random factors to screw the match up?

Smash Balls are designed around Free-for-All Play, and I really ask myself why do they put it in tournaments.

Btw, didn't Ken got beat by items at the Nintendo Tounament?

 

[Yuna]

Btw, didn't Ken got beat by items at the Nintendo Tounament?

I don't know, I don't keep up with these kinds of "news" butif he did, I'd lol.

 

[Sliq]

IT'S MATH TIME!

Say you hold a fairly large tournament, and you get 64 people. So you opt to do one round of pools, top 32 advance into a 32 man bracket.

You have 8 pools of 8, best 2 out of 3. That is a range of between 112-168 matches per pool. For all of them, it is 896-1344. Then you go onto the Bracket, which will have a total of 134-202 matches played.

1130-1546 matches played in SINLGES ALONE.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

I don't know, I don't keep up with these kinds of "news" butif he did, I'd lol.

Now now Yuna, if people want to do a tournament that includes items in it and is 1 minute long for every match, they have every right to as there is no wrong way to play Smash, including tournaments. There are casual ones and then there are competitive, no item ones. If a competitive player so wishes, he can enter this type of tournament and maybe even win; yes. But he should not whine when he so happens to die from a single appearing bob-omb to the head, as this is something the competitive player should have known to expect when he decided to sign up to this casual, items on tournament. If you don't like how SOME companies and people do tournaments, it's simple, just don't read up on em to argue about how unfair and wrong it is. That is, if one were to argue in such a way, that is =3

Edit: ITT 2005>2006= Fallacy?

 

[Yuna]

1130-1546 games out of which, let's say, 1/20th gets decided by items. 1/100th of them is by lucky item drops (as in "They would not have won without them").

Sounds fair to you?

 

[Tinkerer]

Skilled players will still have a much higher chance to win, don't get your knickers in a twist. What the guy also says is that this is a tournament that's also played by people who have never played Smash, so it's not like it's a hardcore tournament.
Not that anyone expected that, but there's no need complaining over such a thing.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

1130-1546 games out of which, let's say, 1/20th gets decided by items. 1/100th of them is by lucky item drops (as in "They would not have won without them").

Sounds fair to you?

In a tournament like this one?

....Yes Dylan.

Edit:

Skilled players will still have a much higher chance to win, don't get your knickers in a twist. What the guy also says is that this is a tournament that's also played by people who have never played Smash, so it's not like it's a hardcore tournament.
Not that anyone expected that, but there's no need complaining over such a thing.

End thread. Not EVERY tournament -has- to be items off you know. I don't see what you're so angry about.