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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

SPEN18

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Simmer down. The idea of returning to base Ultimate is pretty rarely brought up relative to the idea of Ultimate Deluxe, another conventional entry, or a reboot. No one in the thread is deathly committed to the idea of returning to Ultimate in the way that you're asserting. I'm probably the most vocal proponent for the idea here and even I think it's just one option available for the series going forward. Like with all options, it has a variety of pros and cons that come with it relative to other choices. I've posted hypothetical rosters for a Smash 6 that looks more like the jump from Melee to Brawl and Brawl to Smash for numerous times here. If you think my post spitballing this idea is "straight-up animosity towards the very idea of a brand-new entry in the series", then you are drastically misreading my intentions.
Firstly, I wasn't responding to you or anyone else specifically, just voicing thoughts on where segments of the fanbase currently seem to stand. I used strong language to make a point, but sorry if you thought it was too much.
Anyway, substantial cuts or a brand-new entry does not mean a reboot, and I think there's very few out there who actually want a true reboot; but there's a lot of active fear out there surrounding the prospects of a new game that doesn't just copy over Ult, and I don't think it's well-founded. I think the best path forward is to make a new sequel in the same vein that Brawl and 4 were made, adding a healthy crop of newcomers, game modes, and other contents, and with cuts to the roster where deemed fit to facilitate that.

In terms of dollar value for the consumer, that's entirely relative to the individual. If you're just speaking in terms of characters, then yes. Ultimate's base game gets you about 60 characters for $60, while Fighter's Pass 2 gets you 10% of that for $30. However, you're solely interested in the unique newcomers to Smash available in a product, DLC has Ultimate's lunch. You're getting six newcomers in both Ultimate's base game and Fighter's Pass 2 despite the former being double the price of the latter. You could probably even argue that Fighter's Pass 2 gives you more of the content you want relative to Ultimate, as Isabelle is so heavily based on Villager. That's also not considering the idea of returning to Ultimate but not following the Fighter's Pass formula in favour of cheaper releases that only come with the character.
DLC is less content for your money basically by definition. That's it's whole point; it allows the developers to milk even greater value out of the massive resources and efforts they put down to make the main game, by catering to the subset of more dedicated fans that is willing to pay a worse dollar-to-content rate in order to get some extra stuff added on to their game. That dollar-to-content ratio would not work for selling to a wider audience, and the more of it you do, the narrower the audience gets.
You can't reduce the value of the base game to just the unique newcomers. Even if you only focus on new stuff you're getting that you didn't have before, you'd have to consider all the brand-new singleplayer content like World of Light, any updates to graphics and gameplay, and probably also any vets that weren't in 4. But even that's besides the point; you're paying $60 for the entire game, and that is giving you way more for your dollar than a DLC pack, not even close. Unless you're going to argue that Ultimate is just a port of 4 with a few more characters in it.
I don't think you have any argument here. If anything, by focusing so hard on new content when it comes to determining product value, you're further supporting the idea that it would be better to focus more on brand-new content rather than bringing back the old when building the next game. If base Ult wasn't focusing as hard on bringing back old content, it could've trounced the amount of DLC content even harder.
Of course the values of products are always going to depend on the individual, but for the average consumer there's just no contest here.

In terms of DLC generating diminishing returns, I would need to see some data that backs that up. Could it be true? Maybe. However, I think it's more likely that the sales of DLC fluctuate depending on who the fighter in question is. If I had to hazard a guess, Steve probably sold the best out of all of Ultimate's DLC characters because Minecraft is such a massive IP, but he was the eighth DLC fighter of 12 and he realized right as Ultimate entered its final year of support.
If I knew of conclusive sales data for Ult's DLC, I would provide it. But just speaking generally, interest in new content for an older game wanes over time; I feel this needs little explanation. It will fluctuate with the specific characters involved, yes. But on a macro scale, in this case potentially spanning multiple console generations with some of what I've seen, support generally declines over time.

What is your vision for updating Smash mechanically and graphically for the next generation? Ultimate's mechanics, by and large, hold up fine.
It's difficult to be too specific without seeing the next console, but it's safe to assume said console will feature a significant power leap from the Switch. Sakurai has alluded to the similarity between the Wii U and Switch as a factor in their ability to pull off Ult's roster. But, generally, I mean the mechanical and graphical updates that happen with every new game. All the work that needed to be put into making games like Brawl on the Wii or Smash 4 on the Wii U that couldn't be erased by copy-pasting from the last one.
Ultimate may still look fine to you or me personally, but that's not what we're talking about here. I mean, Super Metroid still looks amazing to me for example but that has nothing to do with what's commercially viable for a big-budget, headliner title like Smash.
 

Sucumbio

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Nah this "true fan" bull**** is toxic as hell.
This is manic thinking.
You are correct. I quit smoking 2 weeks ago and attended a funeral yesterday and I should have known better than to post because while true I reserve some personal views on this game my mind is getting the better of me.

I apologize everyone. I am leaving for a bit to get through this because I can't even have a decent conversation without shaking.
 

Gengar84

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You are correct. I quit smoking 2 weeks ago and attended a funeral yesterday and I should have known better than to post because while true I reserve some personal views on this game my mind is getting the better of me.

I apologize everyone. I am leaving for a bit to get through this because I can't even have a decent conversation without shaking.
I’m so sorry to hear that. I hope everything is going to be okay.
 

Garteam

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You are correct. I quit smoking 2 weeks ago and attended a funeral yesterday and I should have known better than to post because while true I reserve some personal views on this game my mind is getting the better of me.

I apologize everyone. I am leaving for a bit to get through this because I can't even have a decent conversation without shaking.
I'm really sorry to hear that, man. Smoking is an incredibly hard monkey to get off your back and the last thing anyone needs during that period is the loss of a loved one or friend. Good on you for taking that step to improve your life. Remember to take care of yourself in the meantime.
 

SPEN18

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Also, no, it's not about whether people can afford the DLC. The thing that matters (in terms of the DLC being financially successful) is whether people actually choose to purchase it, regardless of whether they can afford it.

No, not every player buys every DLC character. Not every player even buys any DLC at all. Even plenty of people who could easily and comfortably afford it, and who bought and enjoyed the base game.

All these arguments regarding the value-cost relationship for the DLC are not about whining about paying or not being able to afford. It's part of the business calculus of any product.

It's easy to get caught up in the hardcore fan bubble. You have to think in terms of an average, casual consumer.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I buy every bit of Smash DLC because I love Smash and want to support it. That's my reasoning for buying the DLC. But that's my decision and it's a decision I can make because I'm financially fortunate. Other people can love and support Smash without buying every DLC. And we shouldn't shame them for not buying everything.

is it annoying that sometimes I go to a friend's house and they're missing a character I love playing? Yeah. But they have their own valid reasons. Do not pressure people into making frivolous financial decisions.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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I'm not sure if it was a statement by Sakurai or data in one of Nintendo's financial reports, but I remember them saying that the Smash DLC sold extremely well.
On the business side I assume they get more money out of the DLC, sure they can't sell as much as the base game, but they probably also cost way less to develop.
 

DarthEnderX

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Do they track which costumes sell the best?
I...assume that happens automatically. As they'd easily be able to see how many times each piece of DLC was purchased.

Also, no, it's not about whether people can afford the DLC. The thing that matters (in terms of the DLC being financially successful) is whether people actually choose to purchase it, regardless of whether they can afford it.
If I think a particular piece of DLC is a bad value, I won't buy it, despite the fact that I can afford it. Because I don't like being taken advantage of, and I don't like rewarding companies for overstepping themselves.
 
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SPEN18

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I'd say a third Fighter Pass has been out of the question for a while now.
I wasn't exactly thinking about endless DLC, it's more that (in my opinion) after the jump from Melee to Brawl the series has been very iterative. Not only characters, but also stages and items are quite likely to stay in the series once they've been introduced. Even Smash 4 reused a lot of stages from the previous games, though not to the extent of Ultimate.
In short, this series has a tendency to add add add in terms of the core content - what actually comes and goes for real is usually the single player modes and the collectibles.

Don't live service games often do jumps like that from Smash 4 to Ultimate? Tweak some mechanics, rework some characters, introduce some new mode... DLC introducing new single player modes in particular, as opposed to just characters, I think would go over well with more casual players.
I'm not sure if it's sustainable, but the way I see it, fans clearly love the crazy amount of content in these games, the developers like iteration (probably as a response to the fans liking it), and during the Ultimate DLC half the industry seemed very eager to jump onto the Smash train in some form - be it through a full-fledged character, a Mii costume or even just a batch of Spirits.
Resetting everything just seems... weird.

A normal sequel that loses some old content in favor of new one is pretty reasonable, though. But I wonder how exciting that's going to be unless they introduce something really crazy. Some form of service Smash seems like the safest route to surpass Ultimate.
Basically, yes, the series has always been iterative in nature, but via the typical tried-and-true nature of making brand-new sequels on each new home console. We had a special situation with Ult where the Switch was similar in architecture and power to the Wii U, which allowed them to "iterate" more than they would usually be able to, but the next console, and especially the one after that, are not likely to provide that same opportunity.

To keep things up-to-date and commercially viable on a new system with a big power upgrade, they have to make sufficient changes to the core gameplay, mechanics, modes, and graphics every gen. Doesn't mean they don't iterate or don't use their previous assets to the extent that it makes sense to do so. But, typically, all of that effort is significant enough that the result needs to be marketable as a completely new game in order to attract enough customers to be commercially viable.
And, to be honest, I don't view that as a loss, even though it realistically usually means roster and other content cuts, because I wouldn't want to be playing an outdated version of Smash for multiple gens. From a representative standpoint it's also fine to me because it allows a different snapshot, interpretation, and reassessment of Nintendo's history at different points in time.

Again, we had a special and likely unrepeatable situation with Ult, but I don't see the need to blow up the entire cycle of how Smash has historically operated because of it. A "regular sequel" is totally fine, because "regular sequels" for Smash are always amazing. There may need to be some scaling back of the old content on a greater level than is normal because (once again) we had a special occurrence that threw things off the usual balance, and because Smash has expanded enough that continual linear growth is likely not going to be sustainable, but I view this more as renormalizing, and a natural way to proceed, rather than thinking we need a completely new model.
 

CapitaineCrash

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I think it would be cool if the fighter passes and future Smash 6 dlc would be included in NSO similar to the Mario kart 8 deluxe booster course pass. I think it would be a great way to not only add value to NSO, but also not make people pay too much for individual characters.

But to be fair it's probably never happening because I'm sure Smash dlc cost way more than the Booster course pass did and they wouldn't want to put it in a subscription.
 

dream1ng

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I didn't buy every character in 4, and I didn't buy every character in Ultimate. If I don't particularly like them, nor does anyone I regularly play with care... why bother? I'm not a completionist, it's my game, if I have the option to curate the roster to some extent, I'll take it.

I would love to be able to pick and choose the whole roster. But conversely, if a character I don't like is present (like when the 4 DLC I didn't buy was in base in Ultimate and I didn't have a choice), it's hardly the end of the world. It's just a character on a roster in a video game.

Not saying those characters shouldn't exist for others, or that they're "bad" characters; I'm not trying to gatekeep the roster. Just gatekeep... my roster. Which is my prerogative, and an option the game gives you, to some extent. I don't want the characters I don't want.


This is probably the only thing I disagreed with for DLC. Mii Costumes. Why? Why is it so cheap? If my memory is right (aka I’m too lazy to google), I’m pretty sure this is the USD equivalent of 100 yen. This is vending-machine-tier DLC. I would rather have it free than pay $1 for a Mii Brawler costume, because I don’t even play Mii Brawler. I honestly might have tried if I got it for free.
What a coincidence I would also prefer things being free to having to pay for them

The Goemon love this mod has is unprecedented in the fanbase.

But I dig it.

Unlike the last character. I get the intent, but... eh. Not for me.
 

Will

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What a coincidence I would also prefer things being free to having to pay for them
So you agree that this is the correct action? :4pacman:

This felt rather... final, to me. Which I suppose would explain the final reveal: full circle moment right there.
Nah, this is like SSF2 introducing Sandbag. As long as the devs continue to have fun and don’t get absolutely shredded by Nintendo.

If the competitive scene ever suddenly gets a sponsored grand venue, you know they’ve been sacrificed to the Nintendo gods for a mere drop of rain. :sakuraipower: Proverbial rain.
 

Gorgonzales

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They made Banjo's up-b what it always should have been, and for that I am grateful.

Ebisumaru, despite me knowing nothing about the character, looks like a really fun addition. That camera attack is hilarious and unique.

That last character reveal is honestly really neat, the moveset looks nice and it's a character that wasn't even remotely on my radar (or anyone else's for that matter). I love deep-cut, creative character choices like that.
 

Guynamednelson

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That last character reveal is honestly really neat, the moveset looks nice and it's a character that wasn't even remotely on my radar (or anyone else's for that matter). I love deep-cut, creative character choices like that.
I'm just surprised they actually made a unique moveset out of him instead of just having him being a Falcon clone.
 

Louie G.

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Smash Remix spoilers, I guess? Adding Dragon King was worth it just to replicate that original beta screenshot. That was so cool to me.

It’s cool they finally added him, but it’s funny that Banjo is the one I’m least interested in lol. Everyone looks great though, probably finally time for me to give Smash Remix a shot.

It’s been time since they added Dedede and Marina to be honest, I’ve just been too busy.
 

dream1ng

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So you agree that this is the correct action? :4pacman:
I mean obviously people would like as much free stuff as possible. But between charging $1 and anything above that, I'll take the dollar.

And charging for costumes doesn't bother me, because
1) it's common practice, Nintendo isn't being greedier than anyone else here
2) it's very cheap
3) having some return on the content probably affords them a greater budget, with which they can land further/more expensive IPs
4) some third-parties probably won't be swayed by a lump sum payment over a mix of money down and some of the back-end, which there wouldn't be were it free. Look at how none of the third-party costumes returned in base.

So charging for it ultimately does afford a greater ranger in who we receive as a costume. And I guess they could charge more, but... why would anyone want to advocate for that? I mean I would probably go up to $1.99 for a costume I liked, I don't buy that many. Maybe more if it came with a remix. But they seem to be landing a fine amount with the status quo.

The thing is if they eventually add DLC skins for more than just the damn Mii, they kind of have to keep the price equal to what the Miis are, that's the price they've set for skins. And getting a skin for a buck is a pretty good deal, comparatively.
 

Louie G.

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How did Conker get added first?
Honestly, they probably just thought it would be more fun to add someone new. And I think they're right, I appreciate that they went for some of those weirder N64 era picks like Conker, Marina and Goemon because those are the ones you're only going to get here. Banjo was gonna happen eventually, so figure they'll have some fun first and then pay their dues at the end.
 
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Venus of the Desert Bloom

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I never played Remix but are Boss Characters also actual playable characters? I’m just confused about their inclusion like Ebisumaru, Mad Piano, and Dragon King. And, yes, I second Mega Msn Volnutt but, as the focus is N64, I greatly would like to see: Wizzpig, Joanna Dark, Saki, Plumb, and Turok. Space Station Silicon Valley rep where you can switch between various robotic animals would be sick as well.
 

Pupp135

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I never played Remix but are Boss Characters also actual playable characters? I’m just confused about their inclusion like Ebisumaru, Mad Piano, and Dragon King. And, yes, I second Mega Msn Volnutt but, as the focus is N64, I greatly would like to see: Wizzpig, Joanna Dark, Saki, Plumb, and Turok. Space Station Silicon Valley rep where you can switch between various robotic animals would be sick as well.
Boss characters are technically playable, but they are hidden behind the regular characters on the CSS, and they don’t appear in All-Star. Each character has a Fighting Polygon counterpart now too.
This is what each playable boss corresponds to.
Meta Mario: Mario
Metal Luigi: Luigi
Mad Piano: Kirby (this was initially Luigi)
Giga Bowser: Bowser
Giant Donkey Kong: Donkey Kong
Peppy: Fox
Slippy: Falco
Dragon King: Captain Falcon
Super Sonic: Sonic
Ebisumaru: Goemon
 
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BuckleyTim

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Pretty great Remix update, though maybe not the most hype one for me. Don't get me wrong, Banjo looks fantastic here but he was such an obvious inevitability that it's makes me excited but not surprised. As for the bonus characters, Ebisumaru is a cute idea but my unfamiliarity with Goemon is really starting to show here. Glad for Goemon fans, though, lord knows they need the love. Dragon King is very nice and dare i say it necessary for a mod like this but it's always gonna be more a novelty for me than something I'm raring to play as, y'know? But this is nitpicking a free mod that's already given me Marina and Conker, not really something I can complain about further.
 

Louie G.

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As for the bonus characters, Ebisumaru is a cute idea but my unfamiliarity with Goemon is really starting to show here.
I've yet to get into Goemon myself, but this inclusion excited me in a very particular way because it just reminded me how much I love silly characters in fighting games. They just look like an absolute blast to play. Kind of channels Norimaro from Marvel vs Capcom for me, and Neco Arc (Melty) and Iggy (JoJoban) are go-to characters of mine as well. Not to mention Dan, one of my favorite Street Fighter characters. That kind of goofiness feels so at home in Smash.

I guess our last one in Smash proper was Piranha Plant, but I'd love to see what another proper joke character might look like. Historically, I would probably say Jigglypuff and Wii Fit Trainer are the only other two I could cite as being within that range - and Jigglypuff pretty much stopped being this by Melee. Mr. G&W, ROB and Duck Hunt are "surprise" characters but aren't inherently silly in quite the same way, at least IMO since they feel more like celebrations of Nintendo's legacy. They're also some of my favorite additions, but I categorize them a little bit differently.

I dunno, just thinking out loud, I'd love for them to go all in with another completely wacky unserious character.
 
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Nabbitfan730

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Is it just me or is something special about the models from Smash 64?

Seeing the trailers the Remix team has done for the mod and seeing these models move about and fully animated makes me realize on how the low-poly nature and the simplistic give off a certain toyetic charm like Figures.

It's a similar feeling to the overworld models used for the Original FF7 or even something like Brave Fencer.
 

Gorgonzales

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I've yet to get into Goemon myself, but this inclusion excited me in a very particular way because it just reminded me how much I love silly characters in fighting games. They just look like an absolute blast to play. Kind of channels Norimaro from Marvel vs Capcom for me, and Neco Arc (Melty) and Iggy (JoJoban) are go-to characters of mine as well. Not to mention Dan, one of my favorite Street Fighter characters. That kind of goofiness feels so at home in Smash.

I guess our last one in Smash proper was Piranha Plant, but I'd love to see what another proper joke character might look like. Historically, I would probably say Jigglypuff and Wii Fit Trainer are the only other two I could cite as being within that range - and Jigglypuff pretty much stopped being this by Melee. Mr. G&W, ROB and Duck Hunt are "surprise" characters but aren't inherently silly in quite the same way, at least IMO since they feel more like celebrations of Nintendo's legacy. They're also some of my favorite additions, but I categorize them a little bit differently.

I dunno, just thinking out loud, I'd love for them to go all in with another completely wacky unserious character.
Agreed. I feel like the prime candidates for this kind of character could be Tingle, Morshu / King Harkinian, and uh... I don't know, Lanky Kong? or something?

Best case scenario would probably be like an unexpected DK character anyway. I don't want to witness the bloodbath that would ensue if Zelda finally got its first non-triforce-wielder character for the first time in series history only for it to be the dinner guy from a meme game only remembered for its influence on YTP culture rather than actually being fun to play.
 

Louie G.

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Agreed. I feel like the prime candidates for this kind of character could be Tingle, Morshu / King Harkinian, and uh... I don't know, Lanky Kong? or something?

Best case scenario would probably be like an unexpected DK character anyway. I don't want to witness the bloodbath that would ensue if Zelda finally got its first non-triforce-wielder character for the first time in series history only for it to be the dinner guy from a meme game only remembered for its influence on YTP culture rather than actually being fun to play.
As much stock as I have in old school YTP culture, I don't think Morshu or Harkinian have even a smidge of a chance of being acknowledged in Smash of all things. That influence only really exists in a vacuum, and one I'm unsure Sakurai is even aware of. Tingle is an obvious choice however - and hell, I think Beedle would be a fantastic choice too. Zelda has a few solid candidates for this.

Lanky Kong would be pretty hilarious, contorting and stretching into all sorts of unnatural shapes. Will toss my hat in the ring for Glass Joe as well, who we talked about recently and I'd still kinda love but I just need them to make Little Mac more capable before adding a second bad Punch-Out character.

And maybe even by some metric Waluigi could be interpreted this way. At least as a character with the amount of zaniness and unpredictability we see from someone like Ebisumaru, leaning harder into that gag anime villain / Wile E. Coyote sort of fold. That's my ideal route for him anyway.
 

Louie G.

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if he had they’d have been hit with a cease and desist by now
That's untrue, Sakurai doesn't control that and to be honest I don't think he cares. I don't want to project feelings onto the man but he's never expressed any sort of condemnation toward modding and he's only a contract Nintendo employee.

That's the higher ups at Nintendo who would choose to strike down, and really I don't think Smash Remix poses any threat to them enough to bother. There are tons of Nintendo fan games that don't get touched, Project M in particular probably got hit because it had a healthy and active competitive scene that interfered with the current market game. Still sucked that it happened (NOT justifying it) but I think there's a clear nuance to what they care about and what they don't.
 
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fogbadge

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That's untrue, Sakurai doesn't control that and to be honest I don't think he cares. I don't want to project feelings onto the man but he's never expressed any sort of condemnation toward modding and he's only a contract Nintendo employee.

That's the higher ups at Nintendo who would choose to strike down, and really I don't think Smash Remix poses any threat to them enough to bother. There are tons of Nintendo fan games that don't get touched, Project M in particular probably got hit because it had a healthy and active competitive scene that interfered with the current market game. Still sucked that it happened (NOT justifying it) but I think there's a clear nuance to what they care about and what they don't.
that’s based on the thinking only sakurai knows
 

chinkuru

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May 7, 2023
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I've yet to get into Goemon myself, but this inclusion excited me in a very particular way because it just reminded me how much I love silly characters in fighting games. They just look like an absolute blast to play. Kind of channels Norimaro from Marvel vs Capcom for me, and Neco Arc (Melty) and Iggy (JoJoban) are go-to characters of mine as well. Not to mention Dan, one of my favorite Street Fighter characters. That kind of goofiness feels so at home in Smash.

I guess our last one in Smash proper was Piranha Plant, but I'd love to see what another proper joke character might look like. Historically, I would probably say Jigglypuff and Wii Fit Trainer are the only other two I could cite as being within that range - and Jigglypuff pretty much stopped being this by Melee. Mr. G&W, ROB and Duck Hunt are "surprise" characters but aren't inherently silly in quite the same way, at least IMO since they feel more like celebrations of Nintendo's legacy. They're also some of my favorite additions, but I categorize them a little bit differently.

I dunno, just thinking out loud, I'd love for them to go all in with another completely wacky unserious character.
Tingle and Imakuni? from Pokemon Traidding Card Game could fit into the category of joke character although the last one is a bit obscure
 

Guynamednelson

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As much stock as I have in old school YTP culture, I don't think Morshu or Harkinian have even a smidge of a chance of being acknowledged in Smash of all things. That influence only really exists in a vacuum, and one I'm unsure Sakurai is even aware of. Tingle is an obvious choice however - and hell, I think Beedle would be a fantastic choice too. Zelda has a few solid candidates for this
Fun fact: The tip in Smash 4 that claims there's only 5 Zelda games with Link in their name?

They were NOT counting Link: The Faces of Evil. That should tell you all about the chances of CDI representation.
 
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