Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[HyperSomari64]

SEGA has recently officially acknowledged Shade and Sonic Chronicles.

Get bent, Ken Penders. pic.twitter.com/IxfWvCvLkg

— Celest | ENVTuber (@CelestOrion) November 26, 2021

If they made Shade playable in Smash for the sole purpose of spiting Ken Penders, I would be perfectly fine with that...

Wait a minute, is it possible to add a character to Smash out of spite?

From what book this page comes from?

 

[Sucumbio]

SEGA has recently officially acknowledged Shade and Sonic Chronicles.

Get bent, Ken Penders. pic.twitter.com/IxfWvCvLkg

— Celest | ENVTuber (@CelestOrion) November 26, 2021

If they made Shade playable in Smash for the sole purpose of spiting Ken Penders, I would be perfectly fine with that...

Wait a minute, is it possible to add a character to Smash out of spite?

Isn't that Isabelle

 

[chocolatejr9]

From what book this page comes from?

That Sonic EncycoleSpeedia thing that's meant to be part of the 30th Anniversary. It doesn't come out officially until December, but some people got it early and have already posted stuff about it online.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

That Sonic EncycoleSpeedia thing that's meant to be part of the 30th Anniversary. It doesn't come out officially until December, but some people got it early and have already posted stuff about it online.

What does Ken Penders have to do with those characters? Did he declare them non canon or something?

I don’t follow the comics (unless it’s the IDW ones)

 

[Megadoomer]

What does Ken Penders have to do with those characters? Did he declare them non canon or something?

I don’t follow the comics (unless it’s the IDW ones)

From what I'm seeing online, he filed a lawsuit against Sega because the characters from Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood resembled characters that he created for the Sonic Archie comics (mostly the Echidnas), which resulted in all characters that were created by Penders being removed from the comics. Apparently, he's still trying, or at least threatening, to sue Sega.

 

[chocolatejr9]

What does Ken Penders have to do with those characters? Did he declare them non canon or something?

I don’t follow the comics (unless it’s the IDW ones)

For some reason, Ken has been insisting that he owns the rights to Shade after his lawsuit with Archie (the one that lead to the Archie Sonic comics getting cancelled after 20+ years), even claiming that he plans on adding her to his Lara-Su Chronicles thing in the form of an alias used by one of his characters, Julie-Su (the reason he thinks he owns her is because he insists that Shade is directly based on Julie-Su, even though basically the only thing they have in common is that their both female echidnas). As part of his "claims", he says that if Sega ever used Shade again, he would have to be given a part of the payment. But here's the kicker: Ken isn't even MENTIONED in the EncycloSpeedia. No copyright or anything. He claimed in a response to the tweet I shared that this was because Ian Flynn is the one who wrote it, but Sega were the ones who HIRED him to write it, and with how restrictive they've been with... ANYTHING Sonic-related these days, there's no way they DIDN'T see this.

Oh, and before you ask, no, Ken has not provided proof that he owns Shade. There's a comment I saw that somes up his reputation in the fandom, but I don't think it's appropriate to share it here (slight trigger warnings and all that).

 

[Sucumbio]

What would shade be like as a character? I don't read comics...

 

[chocolatejr9]

What would shade be like as a character? I don't read comics...

Well, according to her Sonic Wiki page, she has infiltration gear, leech blades, explosives, and a warp belt. Does that give any ideas?

 

[dream1ng]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/r48k0d
Stolen from reddit but here's a thought experiment:

How would ya'll feel if there's a Smash game that only allows one character per franchise? To go even further any newcomers to the game can only come from new franchises and would be the ONLY rep of that franchise.

Thoughts?

This literally just gets rid of characters. You need to add some new franchises to at least try to offset all the cuts.

 

[ZelDan]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/r48k0d
Stolen from reddit but here's a thought experiment:

How would ya'll feel if there's a Smash game that only allows one character per franchise? To go even further any newcomers to the game can only come from new franchises and would be the ONLY rep of that franchise.

Thoughts?

Eh, I feel like you have to have some secondary characters here and there atleast to spice things up. If we followeed this rule we wouldn't really have any villains at all, excpet maybe kazuya, and sometimes secondary characters can be just as interesting, if not moreso, than main characters.

I guess it's also nice to see some franchises see their representation expanded upon with multiple characters (or if not that, stages, music, spirits/trophies), Going with this process just kinda ends uplimiting every franchise brought into Smash.

Also I think it's BS not to count DK, Yoshi, and Wario. Didn't Mario technically originate from DK? And as for Yoshi and Wario, yes they started out in the Mario Franchise, but they still branched out and started their very own franchises that have stuck around for a while now, I don't see why these franchises can't also be recognized. Hell, even Luigi could maybe be an exception too and he could just bring a bunch of Luigi Mansion's content with him.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Also I think it's BS not to count DK, Yoshi, and Wario. Didn't Mario technically originate from DK? And as for Yoshi and Wario, yes they started out in the Mario Franchise, but they still branched out and started their very own franchises that have stuck around for a while now, I don't see why these franchises can't also be recognized. Hell, even Luigi could maybe be an exception too and he could just bring a bunch of Luigi Mansion's content with him.

Yoshi's status as being counted as a separate franchise is weird. On one hand, yes, there are many games with Yoshi in the name, but on the other, even if it's Yoshi's debut game, it's extremely awkward for Super Mario World to be seen as a Yoshi game in Smash's eyes, especially when it can't even decide if it's a Mario game or a Yoshi one, as the stage is considered a Yoshi one but not the songs.

Honestly I think I'd be more content if you could just play SMW songs on the SMW stage lmao.

 

[MeteoRain]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/r48k0d
Stolen from reddit but here's a thought experiment:

How would ya'll feel if there's a Smash game that only allows one character per franchise? To go even further any newcomers to the game can only come from new franchises and would be the ONLY rep of that franchise.

Thoughts?

It would suck to not have secondary favorites like Ridley, Wolf, Sephiroth, DeDeDe, etc.

But it would be a great boon for those of us with a wanted list that largely consists of franchises with no fighters. I can't fathom how many cool or fun characters with no fighters yet got the short end of the stick because of franchises like Mario, Pokemon, or that flaming emblematic elephant in the room.

 

[DarthEnderX]

How would ya'll feel if there's a Smash game that only allows one character per franchise?

I'd lament losing all the villains, but it'd be interesting to see all the extra franchises we'd get.

Mii has to be an all new character then, but otherwise, hell no with the DK/Yoshi/Wario thing. They are officially different franchises.

Actually, no. Mario, Yoshi and Wario are different series, but the same franchise.

Just like how SMT and Persona are different series, but both part of the MegaTen franchise.

This literally just gets rid of characters. You need to add some new franchises to at least try to offset all the cuts.

I'd assumed that was the idea. If it's just cuts but no replacements, then I don't see the point.

But it would be a great boon for those of us with a wanted list that largely consists of franchises with no fighters.

Like mine.

 

[MeteoRain]

Like mine.

I think several of your wanteds would of made the cut by now under such a scenario, including your most wanted.

 

[Yamat08]

I think I said 'Hmm, I think people would be angry if this popular fad character got in before a heaping list of requests since the dawn of Smash, and I would completely understand it too.'

Not sure where in that was any sort of attack? It was just stating what would clearly happen, and that I wouldn't be mad about any outrage, and in fact would stand back respectfully because...well, in all honesty, at that point it would be disrespectful of Nintendo and Sakurai to do something like that.

Poppy is just the current Baldi from Baldi's Basics, or all the rip offs of FNAF back in the day. Even if he gets an amount of staying power, FNAF would clearly be the choice in this regard. I'd defend that decision a bit from the Smash Mob since FNAF has many reasons to get in, as much as I'd rather it not. Same for Fortnite, which I'd rather it not.

I know people don't like to hear it, but sometimes things just don't stay popular. They aren't built for it, or maybe events are unfortunate and it doesn't work out, even if it seems like your favorite thing had everything going for it. As a SMRPG fan AND a Skull Girls fan, I understand this too well.

By the by, poking fun at someone being a fan of something and the flippant attitude because of an assumption is wild and reeks of Twitter Smash community gatekeeping. I'd like to think we are better than that here, but then again, this still IS the Smash community: kinda just the default to gatekeep.

Oh, and by gatekeep, I don't mean being factual about their chances or what general reactions would be, but actually harassing, labeling, and alienating people from Smash speculation based on who they want in.

@Will Just to clarify, until my PC blew up I was actually playing Let It Die and some legacy N64 games I never played before while finally getting into the Legend of Zelda series for the first time (Finished OoT through TP). If I cared about playing 90s games solely, SNES online does a good job of that for the most part, and I only touch it occasionally when extremely bored. This is what happens when you believe in your own (or someone else's) assumption of someone without getting to know them: you end up being mostly wrong, sarcasm or not.

This is kinda how I feel about a lot of indie games requested for Smash. Many I see are just for games that could easily end up being passing fads (hell, we're already seeing this with Fall Guys), and personally, I feel that third parties in general should be held to higher scrutiny, considering how much Sakurai has to go out of his way to get their licenses. At least with the indies that are there, there is some bit of precedent (Shantae's a long-runner, Minecraft's also a long-runner on top of being one of the most popular games out there, the WiiU and 3DS ports of Shovel Knight were published by Nintendo themselves in Japan plus he has his own Amiibo, Undertale has been retaining its relevance and TobyFox himself has now been working with Nintendo..... Cuphead seems like the only oddity, but from what I know, it seems like it might've just been a personal Sakurai pick, albeit one that might've been made easier thanks to the friendlier relations with Microsoft).

And yes, there should be a clear difference between aggressive gatekeeping and people just trying to speculate realistic odds.

Keep in mind, there's a difference between "this was always bad, and I was too young to know any better" and "this was good at the time, but better stuff came out since".

Definitely my thoughts on Melee. At the time, it was absolutely incredible how it took pretty much everything from the N64 game and just made it better while adding more. The addition of trophies, especially, awakened a studious obsession with how deep and varied the world of first-party Nintendo IPs truly is (honestly, before Melee released, and despite being a Nintendo Power subscriber for a time, I rarely paid attention to which games were by Nintendo themselves and which were just being licensed for their systems..... which kinda confused me when I suddenly saw a Mega Man game for Sega's Game Gear, though Capcom was a name I'd see often...... only thing I really knew was that Mario and Zelda were both by Shigeru Miyamoto, and the two of them would often cross-cameo with one another along with Metroid, Star Fox, and Kirby, which is why the N64 game didn't seem too unprecedented for me).

But since then, I fell in love with Brawl and the absolutely glorious way it expanded on the Adventure Mode...... which makes me sad to see so many people just **** on it before going back to Melee. And worse, they still got stuck on Melee, even in light of the releases of Smash4 (which, granted, I thought was even worse than the N64 game in its single-player aspect, but I saw nothing wrong with its competitive scene..... at least pre-Cloud and Bayonetta) and now Ultimate, which really gives the impression that Melee fans are a bunch of dinosaurs that stubbornly refuse to move on.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Definitely my thoughts on Melee. At the time, it was absolutely incredible how it took pretty much everything from the N64 game and just made it better while adding more.

Agreed. Melee was great at the time. It just feels lacking by comparison now because something like Ultimate is so much more polished, so much more developed, so much more...more.

 

[Freduardo]

I’d do smash like pokemon. Different versions get you access to different characters:

Smash Bros. Mushroom Kingdom: Mario, Luigi’s Mansion, DK, Wario, and Yoshi franchises. Adventure mode plays like an eight world mario platformer with bosses

Smash Bros. Swords and Sorcery: Zelda, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade. Adventure mode plays like a tactical rpg/fighter similar to project x zone

Smash Bros. Pokemon: It’s just Pokemon. Adventure mode plays like a top down rpg with six on six smash battles replacing pokebattles.

Smash Bros. Space Mission: Star Fox, Kid Icarus, Metroid, F-Zero, and Mother. Adventure mode plays like a 9 chapter Kid Icarus campaign.

Smash Bros. Kirby’s NES remix: Kirby, Duck Hunt, Punch Out, ROB, retro characters. Adventure mode plays like NES remix.

Smash Bros: New Frontiers: All 3rd Parties, any franchises I missed, new characters. Adventure Mode is like subspace emissary.

buying any of these games gets you for free:

Smash Bros. online: No adventure mode, just 200 character slots to fill with the rosters you unlock in all of the other games (you import and remove characters for your file’s personal roster) used for local and online basic smash bros.

(Did I miss a franchise? I feel like I missed a franchise. Maybe move either f-zero or mother to kirby’s nes remix.)

 

[Gengar84]

Agreed. Melee was great at the time. It just feels lacking by comparison now because something like Ultimate is so much more polished, so much more developed, so much more...more.

At a purely casual level, I think I still prefer Melee’s gameplay to anything else. I never learned the advanced mechanics but I liked the fact that everything just felt speedier and I felt like I had more control of my character. That might be because I mained Fox and Ganondorf who haven’t been the same since. I still main Ganondorf but I don’t play nearly as well with him as I did in Melee. I can’t seem to get much going with Fox at all since then despite him being my most played character in Melee.

Still, I think all the extra content since Melee makes it hard for me to want to go back and play it. Ultimate’s gameplay still feels good in its own way.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I’d do smash like pokemon. Different versions get you access to different characters:

Smash Bros. Mushroom Kingdom: Mario, Luigi’s Mansion, DK, Wario, and Yoshi franchises. Adventure mode plays like an eight world mario platformer with bosses

Smash Bros. Swords and Sorcery: Zelda, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade. Adventure mode plays like a tactical rpg/fighter similar to project x zone

Smash Bros. Pokemon: It’s just Pokemon. Adventure mode plays like a top down rpg with six on six smash battles replacing pokebattles.

Smash Bros. Space Mission: Star Fox, Kid Icarus, Metroid, F-Zero, and Mother. Adventure mode plays like a 9 chapter Kid Icarus campaign.

Smash Bros. Kirby’s NES remix: Kirby, Duck Hunt, Punch Out, ROB, retro characters. Adventure mode plays like NES remix.

Smash Bros: New Frontiers: All 3rd Parties, any franchises I missed, new characters. Adventure Mode is like subspace emissary.

buying any of these games gets you for free:

Smash Bros. online: No adventure mode, just 200 character slots to fill with the rosters you unlock in all of the other games (you import and remove characters for your file’s personal roster) used for local and online basic smash bros.

(Did I miss a franchise? I feel like I missed a franchise. Maybe move either f-zero or mother to kirby’s nes remix.)

One change: Put Kid Icarus franchise in the Swords and Sorcery version and we talk later

 

[Staarih]

So, final fighter adjustments are on the way:

Ver. 13.0.1 of Super #SmashBrosUltimate is coming soon! This update includes the final fighter adjustments, meaning replay data from previous versions will be incompatible. Convert your replays by going to Vault -> Replays -> Replay Data -> Convert to Video, before updating. pic.twitter.com/XokoArQa7N

— Nintendo Versus (@NintendoVS) November 29, 2021

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Look. I'm just saying.

A Smash game without Luigi or Donkey Kong is something short of blasphemy.

Smash needs the secondary characters.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

To be fair, the idea of "one character per series" brings up a question as to what you really count as a series.

Should Luigi be cut due to his status as a Mario character, or does his role in the Luigi's Mansion series keep him afloat? Likewise, DK had his own completely self-contained series in Donkey Kong Country, but then is it considered that DK is just another Mario character? Likewise, even if Wario Land doesn't count due to it originating from the Super Mario Land series, what about WarioWare?

 

[Gengar84]

Look. I'm just saying.

A Smash game without Luigi or Donkey Kong is something short of blasphemy.

Smash needs the secondary characters.

I agree. Most of my favorite video game characters are either villains or side characters. I’d lose my two favorite Smash characters if this happened. Although, to be fair, Sephiroth is sadly unlikely to return regardless.

 

[Freduardo]

One change: Put Kid Icarus franchise in the Swords and Sorcery version and we talk later

I see where you're coming from. I'm just remembering the Pyron levels of Uprising and the Komayto enemies that make me like him with the spacies.

Plus I want to give Fire Emblem as much 'breathing room' as possible. Sharing with Zelda is already making me worry that I'm still going to somehow only have 10 zelda characters. (And I need playable bulblins. For reasons.)

Always down to talk video games though!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Likewise, even if Wario Land doesn't count due to it originating from the Super Mario Land series, what about WarioWare?

It has microgames featuring Mario therefore it counts as Mario

Wait...it also has microgames for pretty much every Nintendo franchise with a fighter in Smash except Pokemon/Kirby/Earthbound/Xenoblade/ARMS...so unless they dig deeper into Nintendo's vaults, your only first-parties will be and some IPs that were too new for FP2. Thanks, 9-Volt.

 

[Sucumbio]

To be fair, the idea of "one character per series" brings up a question as to what you really count as a series.

Should Luigi be cut due to his status as a Mario character, or does his role in the Luigi's Mansion series keep him afloat? Likewise, DK had his own completely self-contained series in Donkey Kong Country, but then is it considered that DK is just another Mario character? Likewise, even if Wario Land doesn't count due to it originating from the Super Mario Land series, what about WarioWare?

No.

I would not suggest cutting anyways but these characters moves are essential tie ins to fighting games and smash.

Mario is the entry character. Win with him and you should be able to learn a specialty characters.

DK wrestler / heavy
Bowser wrestler /.heavy
Luigi brawler
Link sword / zoner
Pikachu brawler / zoner
Zelda zoner
etc

When you delete a character think first is their moveset or fighting style essential to being a fighting game and smash?

If not then ok.

If so maybe it's because all fighters have zoners brawlers wrestlers and swords in smash so huzzah

If anything the whole roster could be reduced to a single rep of each of 3 categories and come out almost even. Maybe some trimming in the sword department lol. But I think say a Smash without Bowser in favor of DK is as unlikely as the other way around so they'd both stay vs go imo.

 

[HyperSomari64]

it also has microgames for pretty much every Nintendo franchise with a fighter in Smash except Pokemon/Kirby/Earthbound/Xenoblade/ARMS

****, you know that N will not pay extra money to Hal/TPC/Monolith just for a small microgame?

 

[osby]

No.

I would not suggest cutting anyways but these characters moves are essential tie ins to fighting games and smash.

Mario is the entry character. Win with him and you should be able to learn a specialty characters.

DK wrestler / heavy
Bowser wrestler /.heavy
Luigi brawler
Link sword / zoner
Pikachu brawler / zoner
Zelda zoner
etc

When you delete a character think first is their moveset or fighting style essential to being a fighting game and smash?

If not then ok.

If so maybe it's because all fighters have zoners brawlers wrestlers and swords in smash so huzzah

If anything the whole roster could be reduced to a single rep of each of 3 categories and come out almost even. Maybe some trimming in the sword department lol. But I think say a Smash without Bowser in favor of DK is as unlikely as the other way around so they'd both stay vs go imo.

Sword is my favorite fighting game character archetype.

 

[Sucumbio]

Sword is my favorite fighting game character archetype.

I'd love a sc rep smash handles sword combat very well and I think many could be viable in a Smash engine

 

[Gengar84]

Sword is my favorite fighting game character archetype.

My two favorite characters in Smash are sword users (Sephiroth and Ganondorf). I would appreciate some more variety in the Fire Emblem cast though. There are so many great FE characters and Smash always tends to go with the most boring avatar characters that all tend to be sword users.

 

[osby]

I'd love a sc rep smash handles sword combat very well and I think many could be viable in a Smash engine

I'd like to see Zagreus from Hades or Hyde from Under Night in Birth.

I want to see Sakurai replicating blood powers in Smash without raising the age rating by making their entire moveset emit glitters instead.

 

[Gengar84]

I'd like to see Zagreus from Hades or Hyde from Under Night in Birth.

I want to see Sakurai replicating blood powers in Smash without raising the age rating by making their entire moveset emit glitters instead.

I’ve never played Hades but Zagreus looks pretty cool and from what I’ve seen would make for a fun Smash character. I don’t know who Hyde is but blood powers sound really cool and unique.

I think the only sword characters near the top of my most wanted list are Zegram Ghart from Rogue Galaxy and Nightmare from Soul Calibur. Since I assume almost no one here has any idea who Zegram is, I’ll share my ideas for him later on here.

 

[Yamat08]

Isn't Rogue Galaxy a Sony game? Or is it something like Wonderful 101 where it was only published by them, but could potentially show up on other platforms?

 

[Gengar84]

Isn't Rogue Galaxy a Sony game? Or is it something like Wonderful 101 where it was only published by them, but could potentially show up on other platforms?

It was made by Level 5 but I believe it is partially owned by Sony but I’m not sure on the specifics. Either way, Zegram’s chances are near nonexistent but that won’t stop him from being my most wanted.

That is a good point about Wonderful 101 that I hadn’t considered. I wonder if it could technically show up on other consoles the same way.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It was made by Level 5 but I believe it is partially owned by Sony so Zegram’s chances are near nonexistent. That won’t stop him from being my most wanted though.

Even more so in the off chance Level-5 goes under and Sony ends up acquiring full ownership as a result.

Yes, I'm still worried about Level-5. Yes, I also know I'm being paranoid...

 

[Gengar84]

Even more so in the off chance Level-5 goes under and Sony ends up acquiring full ownership as a result.

Yes, I'm still worried about Level-5. Yes, I also know I'm being paranoid...

Same. I haven’t played many of their games but I’m a huge fan of Rogue Galaxy and Dark Cloud.

 

[Shroob]

Well, with the final balance patch confirmed to be dropping soon, I guess Ultimate really is 'finished' now.


I was hoping that balance patches would continue into next year, since they're going to need to update the game anyway for Amiibo functionality, but it is what it is.


Hopefully, the changes are spicy.

 

[Gengar84]

Well, with the final balance patch confirmed to be dropping soon, I guess Ultimate really is 'finished' now.


I was hoping that balance patches would continue into next year, since they're going to need to update the game anyway for Amiibo functionality, but it is what it is.


Hopefully, the changes are spicy.

Do balance patches ever drastically impact a character’s tier? I don’t play competitively but most seem to be minor tweaks that don’t end up changing much. I’m just hoping they can do something for Ganondorf to help him escape the bottom tier.

 

[Shroob]

Do balance patches ever drastically impact a character’s tier? I don’t play competitively but most seem to be minor tweaks that don’t end up changing much. I’m just hoping they can do something for Ganondorf to help him escape the bottom tier.

Pichu went from a blight to just being alright with the nerfs it got.


As for Ganon, I kinda wouldn't hold my breath tbh. He needs them absolutely, but I feel like he's a K.Rool situation, where their internal data said he was doing 'fine' by looking at their online statistics.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Well, with the final balance patch confirmed to be dropping soon, I guess Ultimate really is 'finished' now.


I was hoping that balance patches would continue into next year, since they're going to need to update the game anyway for Amiibo functionality, but it is what it is.


Hopefully, the changes are spicy.

Are updates actually dropped for amiibo or is that all I guess coded out in advance?