Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Stratos]

It does respect the IP, but also, the writing was pretty ****ing awful.

There was room in several scenes to insert some non-throwaway dialogue to improve the depth of the characterization and cause people to emotionally invest in the characters based on the actual movie and not because "it's Mario". It's not like the movie ran long.


The live action movie was made back when Nintendo was more lax about licensing their IP and NoA had more autonomy and the way the movie turned out was a big reason that both of those things eventually changed.

I understand what that movie was trying to do. But, aside from how bad the actual script was, I'm not sure Mario is an IP where there's room to greatly scale the edge and tone narratively and not have it feel jarring. It's not Batman.

For my first topic you answered I guess you understand I also wrote about The Super Mario Bros Movie coming out a month ago, I mean April 5th 2023, for my second point you answered I didn't get the 'It's not Batman' part.

 

[fogbadge]

the writing was pretty ****ing awful.

hmm, that's above average for illumination

 

[Opossum]

For my first topic you answered I guess you understand I also wrote about The Super Mario Bros Movie coming out a month ago, I mean April 5th 2023, for my second point you answered I didn't get the 'It's not Batman' part.

Not OP but essentially, Batman is an IP that can be presented as anything on the sliding scale of goofy and campy to dark and edgy. You can get silver-age antics like Joker stealing a shipment of fruit pies, or you can go in the complete other direction and make him a murderous sociopath who jams pencils through people's skulls as a magic trick.

Mario doesn't really have leeway in that regard as an IP, so the live action film's attempt at turning it into a dark urban fantasy story falls flat for a lot of people.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I like the idea of having alternate color palettes and costumes for the Assist Trophies.
Yes, they aren't playable but they would look better with this improvement.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Not OP but essentially, Batman is an IP that can be presented as anything on the sliding scale of goofy and campy to dark and edgy. You can get silver-age antics like Joker stealing a shipment of fruit pies, or you can go in the complete other direction and make him a murderous sociopath who jams pencils through people's skulls as a magic trick.

Mario doesn't really have leeway in that regard as an IP, so the live action film's attempt at turning it into a dark urban fantasy story falls flat for a lot of people.

This is actually one of those cases where Sonic is a bit more dynamic than Mario in that sense with varying tones for the games/adaptations basically being a thing from the very start of the former as a franchise. Stuff like AoStH and SatAM were so contrasting but so quietly successful in their own way that Sonic being wacky or more grounded essentially works if the writing's strong enough.

 

[Perkilator]

Not OP but essentially, Batman is an IP that can be presented as anything on the sliding scale of goofy and campy to dark and edgy. You can get silver-age antics like Joker stealing a shipment of fruit pies, or you can go in the complete other direction and make him a murderous sociopath who jams pencils through people's skulls as a magic trick.

Tbh I wouldn’t really put either of those past the Joker, no matter the context.

 

[silenthunder]

Y'all don't talk Zelda nearly enough here.

So lets change that.

Zelda newcomer of choice? TotK content of choice?

Lets go.

Impa because fingers crossed it's ultimate deluxe. I could still play that game for hours just want to see more characters get in.
It’s actually really hard for me to narrow down to just 11 characters. I had to leave out a lot of favorites but this is what I’m thinking right now. I’d also love to see others like Gengar, Xemnas, Jinx, Nightmare, Impa, Medusa, Jena Anderson, Etna, Raziel, Death, a Goomba, Bugzzy, Dixie Kong, Nia, Raven Beak, the Black Knight and a ton of others
[/QUOTE]
1 Marina Liteyears (she's the only one really but I'll keep going)
2 Ms pacman (she can be an echo of pacman)
3 Phoenix Wright (my sister really likes this guy and so do a lot of people)
4 khameleon (Nintendo exclusive mk character, she can be a shiek clone with a crane stance and a special from kitana, mileena, and Jade)
5 sandbag (it would be funny)
6 Goemon ( Goemon fans are the nicest people)
7 Blinx (Spent many hours in the game and used to fake sword fight a dude pretending to be sora at recess. It would bring back memories)
8 Sheogorath (I wouldn't mind the dragonborn but don't really like created characters being limited to 8 pallet swaps. Everybody likes Sheogorath, but I'd really pick the gray fox as my elder scrolls rep he's bad ass just has no chance. At least Sheogorath was reped in every elder scrolls)
9 Mouth (Colors of War is a lot like Splatoon it just came way earlier in a 100 games in 1 disk. He's never getting in and nobody would recognize him. He's also a pair of teeth without a body.)
10. Tails (Really got into sonic racing lately)
11. Loam (Her games not out yet but I'd be really happy if she got in. She's like Tomba, Marina, Klonoa all in one)

Edit: also I'd like to see Halloween Harry, A Jet Set Radio rep, A House of the Dead rep, One of the Cruis'n exotica racers, Lightning from Final Fantasy, Anyone from Sonic, Chell from Portal, one of the eveelutions (any of them), A killer instinct rep, Scorpion, and P. Walter Tugnut (the coolest redneck in gaming history), A new Kong would be dope. I think that's it.

 

[jamesster445]

maybe a...

Oh I like that a lot.

 

[dream1ng]

You mind explaining what you mean by this? Because I haven't seen this movie but based on my longtime experience with the Mario games, depth is one thing I'm NOT expecting when I'm going to be watching a Mario movie.

I wasn't expecting it either, because it's Nintendo and Illumination. And while that might explain it, it doesn't exonerate it. Story isn't the foundation of video games, the gameplay is, and the story is largely a tool to facilitate the gradual access of features and add coherence and cohesion to the progression.

Story is the foundation of movies. Ideally, the first thing you begin with is a script. Thus, as with games, when you want the gameplay to be as tight as possible, with all the other aspects hopefully just as refined but ultimately not quite as pivotal, if you have a movie that isn't well written, even if everything else is great, it's still going to be, at best, so-so. And one aspect of good writing is characterization.

So just because the source material is fairly one-dimensional both in narrative and characterization, it doesn't mean carrying over those shallow features isn't a mark against the movie. Because a movie is a story, and a game is a game. The movie looks better than Mario games, because movies are also visual. So it got the needed visual boost to be movie-quality. The writing, ideally, should also get a boost from game-quality to movie-quality.

I'm not saying people should've expected it. I didn't; I knew who was involved. But bad writing in movies is still a weakness, regardless of source material. Better writing just makes for a better movie. People generally expect video game movies not to be that great, and indeed they usually aren't. But expecting mediocrity doesn't erase the mediocrity.

And I know this is an animated kids movie, but that doesn't preclude good writing and characterization. Look at Disney, Pixar, Ghibli, etc. If the Lego movie can do it, theoretically any of them can. I mean there's a movie coming out based on a literal inanimate children's doll, and I bet it will be well written.

 

[Sucumbio]

I wasn't expecting it either, because it's Nintendo and Illumination. And while that might explain it, it doesn't exonerate it. Story isn't the foundation of video games, the gameplay is, and the story is largely a tool to facilitate the gradual access of features and add coherence and cohesion to the progression.

Story is the foundation of movies. Ideally, the first thing you begin with is a script. Thus, as with games, when you want the gameplay to be as tight as possible, with all the other aspects hopefully just as refined but ultimately not quite as pivotal, if you have a movie that isn't well written, even if everything else is great, it's still going to be, at best, so-so. And one aspect of good writing is characterization.

So just because the source material is fairly one-dimensional both in narrative and characterization, it doesn't mean carrying over those shallow features isn't a mark against the movie. Because a movie is a story, and a game is a game. The movie looks better than Mario games, because movies are also visual. So it got the needed visual boost to be movie-quality. The writing, ideally, should also get a boost from game-quality to movie-quality.

I'm not saying people should've expected it. I didn't; I knew who was involved. But bad writing in movies is still a weakness, regardless of source material. Better writing just makes for a better movie. People generally expect video game movies not to be that great, and indeed they usually aren't. But expecting mediocrity doesn't erase the mediocrity.

And I know this is an animated kids movie, but that doesn't preclude good writing and characterization. Look at Disney, Pixar, Ghibli, etc. If the Lego movie can do it, theoretically any of them can. I mean there's a movie coming out based on a literal inanimate children's doll, and I bet it will be well written.

Matthew Fogel, the writer, has typically worked on sequels to successful franchises and so this being his first real attempt at headlining is admittedly going to be a learning experience for him, but many reviews say despite the imbalance of story vs filler, it's good enough. I wouldn't be surprised if he's tapped for another project. Besides, can a billion dollars really be wrong?

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Sakurai’s Game Concept video on Brawl.

So, if he didn't signed in to create Brawl, Melee would've been ported by Nintendo. Now since Sakurai is semi retired, do you guys think Ultimate would be ported with new Echo Fighters, rollback netcode, add new songs that won't be remixes/arrangements, one special costume for each fighter, and a free upgrade if you have the save file for the original?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

"Free upgrade" he says lol

 

[dream1ng]

Matthew Fogel, the writer, has typically worked on sequels to successful franchises and so this being his first real attempt at headlining is admittedly going to be a learning experience for him, but many reviews say despite the imbalance of story vs filler, it's good enough. I wouldn't be surprised if he's tapped for another project.

I mean, the primary criticism of the movie is its writing. I understand the expectations are going to be (and should be) calibrated to a kids movie of a video game series. This isn't The Godfather. There are things to actually praise about the movie, but I would surmise the writing being "good enough" is a reflection of the tempered expectations being met for a video game movie for kids made by Illumination.

I would also contend that "good enough" is towards the more positive end of the reception for the writing. Though I acknowledge this movie paralleled superhero fare in that inserting inessential content via studio mandate for promotion or future world-building is often difficult to execute narratively without it being inelegant, hurting the pace, or coming off exactly as it is: forced and superfluous. So I do know that the screenwriter, who for this kind of thing is basically just a hired gun, had his hands tied to some extent, juggling all the things Nintendo wanted in the movie along with just making the script solid.

But I also think that you could've kept the actual plot as it needed to be but still found room to better flesh out the characters. There was a sense of wanting to rush from location to location when there were moments that would've worked for taking a second to help the character shine instead of the setpiece.

To that end I think the reason most people point to Bowser as the standout is because he had more of those moments than the other characters. That and because Jack Black didn't phone in his performance.

Besides, can a billion dollars really be wrong?

Well... are you Nintendo/Illumination shareholder or are you a viewer? Their desire was to make money and grow the brand, and they succeeded. Good on them. But lining the pockets of the studio isn't the objective of a movie-going audience.

Movies like the Jurassic World and Transformers sequels or the Disney remakes have all crossed a billion dollars. I don't know if they're "wrong", but they certainly aren't good movies. If quality and commercial performance were one in the same, good games would never bomb.

 

[Idon]

So, if he didn't signed in to create Brawl, Melee would've been ported by Nintendo. Now since Sakurai is semi retired, do you guys think Ultimate would be ported-

First of all, no.

with new Echo Fighters

No.

rollback netcode

HELL no.

add new songs that won't be remixes/arrangements

No.

one special costume for each fighter

No.

and a free upgrade

you're joking , no.

This isn't even a question, this is wishlist in disguise.

 

[CannonStreak]

Hey, had a thought for a while; if any of the characters that were DLC in both Fighters Passes do return, including but not limited to Terry to Banjo-Kazooie to Steve to Sora; if any of them came back the next Smash Bros. game, what characters do you think should appear with them as Assist Trophy characters?

 

[Perkilator]

This isn't even a question, this is wishlist in disguise.

I know a port of Ultimate isn’t necessarily realistic, but “wishlist in disguise” seems needlessly harsh to me.

Hey, had a thought for a while; if any of the characters that were DLC in both Fighters Passes do return, including but not limited to Terry to Banjo-Kazooie to Steve to Sora; if any of them came back the next Smash Bros. game, what characters do you think should appear with them as Assist Trophy characters?

• Persona: Futaba (heals and buffs the summoner and their allies)
• Dragon Quest: Slime (sticks to a fighter and slows them down)
• Banjo-Kazooie: Mumbo Jumbo (casts a random transformation on all fighters)
• SNK: Nakoruru (fights how she does in SamSho)
• Minecraft: Creeper (follows the nearest fighters and explodes after a bit)

 

[chocolatejr9]

I know a port of Ultimate isn’t necessarily realistic, but “wishlist in disguise” seems needlessly harsh to me.

True, but it's not entirely inaccurate. Especially the rollback netcode thing, given Sakurai himself admitted in the vid that he didn't think online was that big of an appeal for Smash compared to local play. Lord knows THAT reveal has rubbed people the wrong way...

 

[Idon]

I know a port of Ultimate isn’t necessarily realistic, but “wishlist in disguise” seems needlessly harsh to me.

Reading the rest of that post, that's exactly what it is.

 

[RileyXY1]

I'm not really expecting Ultimate to be ported for several reasons, including the fact that the next console might be backwards compatible with the Switch (meaning that Ultimate would be able to be played on it as is) and the high difficulty that would come with licensing all the third party content from Ultimate. Just one piece of content missing would be enough to trigger massive fan backlash. If they make a new game instead they would lessen the load when it comes to licensing, especially if a major buyout happens that would prevent a company from being able to have their content in Smash, such as the rumored Sony buyout of Square Enix.

 

[dream1ng]

So, if he didn't signed in to create Brawl, Melee would've been ported by Nintendo. Now since Sakurai is semi retired, do you guys think Ultimate would be ported with new Echo Fighters, rollback netcode, and a free upgrade if you have the save file for the original?

No, Smash is bigger than Sakurai is, and far too established at this point. Even with a deluxe port, eventually there's going to have to be a new game. And being semi-retired doesn't mean he won't be involved, his role would presumably just become more advisory and probably helping with licensing negotiation.

Almost all of Nintendo's big series have changed hands at this point, unless they're still relatively new. Not sure what Smash will look like as Sakurai takes on a more Miyamoto/Aonuma/Tajiri/Masuda-like role, but it won't stop.

It's just, unlike when he left HAL, Nintendo and Sakurai now have time and foresight to orchestrate a gradual baton pass of the IP together.

Also if we did get a deluxe Ultimate port, I doubt those are the additions it'd feature. The last one just isn't happening, the middle seems unlikely, but on the upside, I do think we'd get a few actual original inclusions.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Hey, had a thought for a while; if any of the characters that were DLC in both Fighters Passes do return, including but not limited to Terry to Banjo-Kazooie to Steve to Sora; if any of them came back the next Smash Bros. game, what characters do you think should appear with them as Assist Trophy characters?

Joker: Futaba
Hero: King slime
Banjo: Mumbo Jumbo
Terry: Metal Slug, the vehicle (Remember Terry represents SNK as a whole not just Fatal fury so this works out)

Steve: Creeper
FF7: Fat Chocobo/Chocobo
Kazuya: I dont know much about Tekken lol
Sora: Meow Wow

 

[toonito]

I'm not really expecting Ultimate to be ported for several reasons, including the fact that the next console might be backwards compatible with the Switch (meaning that Ultimate would be able to be played on it as is) and the high difficulty that would come with licensing all the third party content from Ultimate. Just one piece of content missing would be enough to trigger massive fan backlash. If they make a new game instead they would lessen the load when it comes to licensing, especially if a major buyout happens that would prevent a company from being able to have their content in Smash, such as the rumored Sony buyout of Square Enix.

Given how Sony bought EVO and claimed they wanted Smash at EVO despite it being a Nintendo property, Nintendo declined to have Smash at EVO under Sony's ownership. It's definitely possible that any Sony involvement with a current or future 3rd party developer could impact their involvement in Smash.

Going off the rumor if Sony bought SE not only Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and Sora could be cut from future Smash games any Square Enix property probably won't be included in them either due to new ownership. Until proven otherwise, Sony might be the one company Nintendo refuses to work with or promote due to being a direct console rival.

We'll see what happens, Sakurai and his team can work miracles but if Sony makes a move on a 3rd party developer there's a possibility that their properties wont be in Smash going forward.

 

[jamesster445]

Hey, had a thought for a while; if any of the characters that were DLC in both Fighters Passes do return, including but not limited to Terry to Banjo-Kazooie to Steve to Sora; if any of them came back the next Smash Bros. game, what characters do you think should appear with them as Assist Trophy characters?

Joker: Futaba Sakura "here come the buffs."
Hero: Slime
Banjo: Eekum Bookum
Terry: Rugal Bernstein
Byleth: A Batllaion
Min Min: Headlok
Steve: Creeper... aww man
Sephiroth: Cactuar (or another iconic monster)
Pyra: Tora and Poppi
Kazuya: Jack
Sora: I think they're called Dream Eaters, the helper monsters from Dream Drop Distance.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I'm not really expecting Ultimate to be ported for several reasons, including the fact that the next console might be backwards compatible with the Switch (meaning that Ultimate would be able to be played on it as is) and the high difficulty that would come with licensing all the third party content from Ultimate. Just one piece of content missing would be enough to trigger massive fan backlash. If they make a new game instead they would lessen the load when it comes to licensing, especially if a major buyout happens that would prevent a company from being able to have their content in Smash, such as the rumored Sony buyout of Square Enix.

Wait, I thought the Square Enix rumor got debunked. Unless SE found yet ANOTHER way to fail spectaularly in terms of profit, which honestly is just par for the course at this point...

 

[dream1ng]

True, but it's not entirely inaccurate. Especially the rollback netcode thing, given Sakurai himself admitted in the vid that he didn't think online was that big of an appeal for Smash compared to local play. Lord knows THAT reveal has rubbed people the wrong way...

Tbf Smash's whole ethos is to give you the options to play the game the way you want. So if Sakurai prefers local multiplayer FFAs with items on high and tripping that's cool (well, not tripping), but with how massive online play is in gaming, to not try to provide the best possible experience in that realm is either tone-deaf or selfish. Especially since you won't always have people around locally.

Sakurai/Nintendo have always been very reluctant to embrace people treating Smash like they do other fighters, which is inexplicable to me considering giving options that skew towards competitive gaming doesn't eliminate the ability for casuals to play their preferred ways. And nor should it.

Like when Sakurai said he made Brawl slower because Melee was less accessible to casuals. Since ****ing when is that true? Yeah, it's less accessible if you want to win EVO, but if a bunch of kids gather round their Gamecube, they're not gonna get stumped because the characters fall faster.

It's Smash, it's not StarCraft.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Sora: I think they're called Dream Eaters, the helper monsters from Dream Drop Distance.

Yep, the one that fits the best is Meow wow, the one who is always portrayed as Sora's little doggo friend. He can do what he does when Sora summons him in KH3

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'm not really expecting Ultimate to be ported for several reasons, including the fact that the next console might be backwards compatible with the Switch (meaning that Ultimate would be able to be played on it as is) and the high difficulty that would come with licensing all the third party content from Ultimate. Just one piece of content missing would be enough to trigger massive fan backlash. If they make a new game instead they would lessen the load when it comes to licensing, especially if a major buyout happens that would prevent a company from being able to have their content in Smash, such as the rumored Sony buyout of Square Enix.

Wait, I thought the Square Enix rumor got debunked. Unless SE found yet ANOTHER way to fail spectaularly in terms of profit, which honestly is just par for the course at this point...

Yeah, that rumor hasn't been mentioned in a long time. There was also a rumor that Sony was going to buyout Konami too. Neither of these things have been brought up for quite some time.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I know a port of Ultimate isn’t necessarily realistic, but “wishlist in disguise” seems needlessly harsh to me.

• Persona: Futaba (heals and buffs the summoner and their allies)
• Dragon Quest: Slime (sticks to a fighter and slows them down)
• Banjo-Kazooie: Mumbo Jumbo (casts a random transformation on all fighters)
• SNK: Nakoruru (fights how she does in SamSho)
• Minecraft: Creeper (follows the nearest fighters and explodes after a bit)

Pretty much agree with everything here. but I'll add my 2 cents for Tekken and KH.

Tekken: Yoshimitsu - attacks using a massive list of his moves from the Tekken and Soul Calibur series.
Kingdom Hearts: Aqua - Attacks with her keyblade, occassionally casting magic that Sora doesn't use such as Poison, Mini, and Stop, then uses her iconic Spellweaver Command Style finisher.

 

[PeridotGX]

Me when I find out that Guardians were completely removed from Tears of the Kingdom (it's now harder to argue that they're the best rep for the BOTW sub-series)

 

[fogbadge]

Besides, can a billion dollars really be wrong?

i want you to take a look at a billionaire

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As a general rule, I treat a lot of the "Sony buys major Japanese developer" rumors with a great deal of skepticism. Even getting beyond the fact that many of them are too costly for Sony to realistically afford within their operating budget, it makes far more business sense for such companies to be independent and maximize their profits via doing multiplats. Especially with Sony losing a lot of the software market in Japan, the smartest path for a companies like Square Enix and Konami is to have timed exclusivity on the PS5 with major AAA projects that will do its big numbers in the West and putting out more modest stuff for most systems (with the Switch version being the one to aimed to sell back home).

I mean Sony was in a much stronger position in the Japanese market 8 years ago and Square Enix still felt the need to develop DQXI on the 3DS because the latter was the more popular system. Throw in the Nintendo's dominance now and its practically a given that DQXII is going to make the bulk of its money from the Switch (or Switch 2) version.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Bold strategy to start the Brawl video talking about its online

I also wholeheartedly disagree with Sakurai about the Melee being too obtuse for casuals thing. I'm not some FGC Melee-only guy, but Smash by its own conception is a series designed to be highly accessible, and just because the ceiling raises if you speed the game up and have (mostly accidental) advanced tech, doesn't mean the floor raises as well. Melee was the Gamecube's best selling title, the casuals enjoyed it every bit as much.

Sakurai/Nintendo have always been very reluctant to embrace people treating Smash like they do other fighters, which is inexplicable to me considering giving options that skew towards competitive gaming doesn't eliminate the ability for casuals to play their preferred ways. And nor should it.

It does if the game's whole identity is surrounded and defined by said tech and exploits. Also using Melee as the best selling title on Gamecube as evidence for casual-acceptance holds not much water when Gamecube itself and install-base is very shallow with 21 million especially compared to the competition and against the Wii's whopping 101 mil.

Casual Nintendo fans, a big maybe. The casual gaming market overall, very unlikely. I do believe Brawl went bit too far in the casual approach in especially terms of controls and gameplay and 4 and Ult do a much better job striking that balance, Sakurai was correct in that Brawl need to appeal more to Wii's audience especially that time, ultra casual gamers were now apart of the mix, not just Nintendo diehards.

Sakurai/Nintendo have always been very reluctant to embrace people treating Smash like they do other fighters,

Maybe it's because it isn't like other fighters or even an fighter in the first place. They did hammer home since from the beginning through marketing and game design to be an action-party game than an actual fighter.

You mind explaining what you mean by this? Because I haven't seen this movie but based on my longtime experience with the Mario games, depth is one thing I'm NOT expecting when I'm going to be watching a Mario movie.

Fair but it is still movie where standards are different from games where in this case, story is the forefront of this medium. Even then, saying that depth isn't something to expect does sell the Mario series somewhat short because even in the games, the series isn't shy from adding depth and meaning in storytelling from examples like the RPGs or even titles like Sunshine, Galaxy 1 and Odyssey where add a few things to the spice up the plot.

That said however, I do think the overall story and plot was good for the most part but does feel like the writers had so much ideas they want to bring to bif screen that does feel very rushed. That 1h 30 mins runtime does nobody favors, should've been 2 to 2:30h to flesh things out.

Mario and Luigi and their relationship as brothers was definitely a strong highlight tho.

 

[Arcanir]

It does if the game's whole identity is surrounded and defined by said tech and exploits. Also using Melee as the best selling title on Gamecube as evidence for casual-acceptance holds not much water when Gamecube itself and install-base is very shallow with 21 million especially compared to the competition and against the Wii's whopping 101 mil.

Growing up I had no clue about any of the techs or exploits in Melee and yet me, my family and my friends put so many hours into that game whether at my home or hanging out with my friends over at theirs, arguably more than even Brawl. Melee may have more of an appeal with the competitive audience, but I think you're over-emphasizing that fact to say that casuals couldn't get much enjoyment out of it either. The base gameplay was good and still accessible enough that anyone could jump in and start playing, and it had many favorite characters that people would pop in and play a match with. Whether Brawl was more accessible or not doesn't change the fact that many casual players who did have a Gamecube still had a very good time with the game regardless, Smash at its core is always accessible.

 

[Diddy Kong]

An idea I had regarding revamps. Why not be able to let certain characters aim their projectiles better? For example, Link's bow and arrow or Samus' Charge Shot or Missiles. Why not let these moves be able to stirred a sort of direction with the right control stick? Allowing up for angles more precise making projectiles more diverse.

Speaking of Link, the Fuse mechanic could translate cutely to his current moveset. Replace Down B with Fuse (don't worry I keep bombs in this moveset somehow) and you'll be able to either empower the Master Sword for a few hits, or add an elemental attachment to your arrows or Boomerang. Elementals or a semi randomized buff in the form of parts would allow for a nice new way to play Link. It could also be a passive sort of ability. I also definitely want the paraglider as recovery, but don't wanna do away with the Spin Attack. Spin Attack could function as a Down Smash however.

Recall and possibly Ultra Hand could be used in Zelda's kit. She needs new Specials anyway. I'd replace her neutral B with a Ray of Light attack, which is similar in function to R.O.B.'s neutral B but more powerful and can be used less often to balance it out. Think of it as a watered down version of Samus's Final Smash in terms of function. Recall as Down B and is your standard projectile reflector. Side B maybe Light Arrows? Up B remains the same. Ultra Hand is grab and throws.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Growing up I had no clue about any of the techs or exploits in Melee and yet me, my family and my friends put so many hours into that game whether at my home or hanging out with my friends over at theirs, arguably more than even Brawl. Melee may have more of an appeal with the competitive audience, but I think you're over-emphasizing that fact to say that casuals couldn't get much enjoyment out of it either. The base gameplay was good and still accessible enough that anyone could jump in and start playing, and it had many favorite characters that people would pop in and play a match with. Whether Brawl was more accessible or not doesn't change the fact that many casual players who did have a Gamecube still had a very good time with the game regardless, Smash at its core is always accessible.

Never said Casuals couldn't enjoy but with identity hard-locked in the competitive side and GC small install base, that area will be a very small pool especially compared Brawl.

I still think Brawl is the weakest smash game out of the 3 i've played but ask anyone who isn't in the competitive scene to pick between the 2, More often the not. Brawl will be the answer.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

An idea I had regarding revamps. Why not be able to let certain characters aim their projectiles better? For example, Link's bow and arrow or Samus' Charge Shot or Missiles. Why not let these moves be able to stirred a sort of direction with the right control stick? Allowing up for angles more precise making projectiles more diverse.

Speaking of Link, the Fuse mechanic could translate cutely to his current moveset. Replace Down B with Fuse (don't worry I keep bombs in this moveset somehow) and you'll be able to either empower the Master Sword for a few hits, or add an elemental attachment to your arrows or Boomerang. Elementals or a semi randomized buff in the form of parts would allow for a nice new way to play Link. It could also be a passive sort of ability. I also definitely want the paraglider as recovery, but don't wanna do away with the Spin Attack. Spin Attack could function as a Down Smash however.

Recall and possibly Ultra Hand could be used in Zelda's kit. She needs new Specials anyway. I'd replace her neutral B with a Ray of Light attack, which is similar in function to R.O.B.'s neutral B but more powerful and can be used less often to balance it out. Think of it as a watered down version of Samus's Final Smash in terms of function. Recall as Down B and is your standard projectile reflector. Side B maybe Light Arrows? Up B remains the same. Ultra Hand is grab and throws.

Not every character needs to be complex and needs a revamp. I hate this mentality so much.

For starters, I think it does a disservice to Smash's design for wanting every character to go through a revamp. Having simple characters like Link or Samus helps the player learn the basic mechanics of the game without needing some huge, complex tutorial. Take Link as he is for example. By the nature of having a disjoint, he teaches players spacing. Since you have a giant sword, you can learn to use it to your advantage. Or take Samus. Charge Shot teaches you both playing as and against her the strengths and weaknesses of zoners. Her CQC is not great, but it has to be with how much pressure one move can put out on her kit.

What you want to do just takes away from that beautiful simplicity. I understand wanting accuracy in movesets, but for the most parts characters do a passable job selling the fantasy of their character or what they represent. Link is the versatile adventurer who can play multiple different styles at once. Samus is the bounty hunter under attack on all sides and has to keep her space from her enemies. Zelda is the glass cannon sorceress. Revamping a character for the sake of a revamp for greater canonical accuracy just misses everything great about these movesets. Not every single move in a character's moveset needs to be a one to one reference. Canonical accuracy is fine, but the greater priority is selling the fantasy of the character. Not every character can be Mega Man or Steve, nor should they be.

Even going beyond that, massive revamps are also alienating in general. You do not want the players who previously mained the characters to have to enter unfamiliar territory. The beauty of a character like Link is in spite of his modernizations, he still is at his core a very similar character to the one we saw in Smash 64. If someone has not played since Brawl or so, they have that familiar character to fall back to. Hard reworking a character just risks alienating people for the sake of appeasing a vocal minority. If you want a great example of this thought process taken to its natural conclusion, look at Overwatch. That game hard reworked multiple characters and the entire cue system in order to appease a very small vocal competitive minority. This alienated tons of fans. That was with a game that had a far more active balance team, a more engaged community with the competitive scene, and a clearer link of communication with the devs.

Now imagine that in Smash, which has a far larger casual reach, has a tenuous relationship with its competitive scene, and does not have the same transparency with balance. Even if these reworks happened between games, it would be alienating to the wide swath of casual fans who play Smash. The average Smash fan is not someone who is on this site or frequents any Smash related area. They are just people who bought this game because it is a fun multiplayer game. Do you think they care at all if Zelda gets a rework to feel more canonical? What about the several players who play Samus, do they "need" a hard rework for her to change? No, no they do not.

Sometimes, reworks are needed. Bowser was nonviable for two straight games in a row and needed a fix. Ganondorf needed some changes before Ultimate and still arguably needs changes to this day. But you do not need to hard revamp that much of the game's roster. Most of the characters in Ultimate have reached the bare minimum for viability. Most of the cast sells the fantasy of why you would play as them. We do not need to turn every character into Mega Man in a vain attempt to please a very vocal, tiny minority of the fanbase.

 

[Schnee117]

Never said Casuals couldn't enjoy but with identity hard-locked in the competitive side and GC small install base, that area will be a very small pool especially compared Brawl.

I still think Brawl is the weakest smash game out of the 3 i've played but ask anyone who isn't in the competitive scene to pick between the 2, More often the not. Brawl will be the answer.

You're vastly overestimating how many people are in the competitive side of Melee. The reality is Melee is still a casual appealing game first and foremost and the main reason to pick Brawl over Melee is that it just offers more than Melee does. Casuals care that it has Sonic and Wario and Snake and a robust single player mode with cutscenes and (limited) character interactions and small demos of old games where Melee doesn't have any of that.

Most casuals will also go on to say whatever the latest game and/or the most feature rich game is.
They'll pick Smash 4 over Brawl despite more of a competitive focus on 4 because again, it simply offers more even despite the lack of Subspace.
They'll pick Ultimate above all else because it offers the most fighters and stages in the whole series alongside another big single player mode.

It's not that "oh this game has a bunch of advanced techniques I don't need to do to enjoy it" , it's that the game is old and legally inaccessible on an old console that isn't manufactured anymore, it's that it's old and looks bad/dated now, it's that it offers less.

Melee only has an overwhelmingly majority competitive appeal now because it's an old ass game with mechanics and a game feel that the comp crowd greatly enjoy but when it was new on the market it was a huge casual appealing game even with the comp scene growing alongside it.

 

[Geno Boost]

Hey, had a thought for a while; if any of the characters that were DLC in both Fighters Passes do return, including but not limited to Terry to Banjo-Kazooie to Steve to Sora; if any of them came back the next Smash Bros. game, what characters do you think should appear with them as Assist Trophy characters?

: Jack Bros. (Jack Frost freezes them/Pyro Jack burn them/Jack Skelton stabs them)
: Mokujin (copy paste some Kazuya moveset)
: Black Mage (random elemental magic spells)
: King Slime (jumps on them and make them stuck to the ground)
: Humba Wumba (turns all fighters to metal)
: Creeper (chase them and blow up)
: Athena (turns anyone who hits her to random animal)
: Riku (he fights but also because he is popular)

 

[HyperSomari64]

Kinda weirded that no one had asked who would be Byleth's Assist Trophy.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I wasn't expecting it either, because it's Nintendo and Illumination. And while that might explain it, it doesn't exonerate it. Story isn't the foundation of video games, the gameplay is, and the story is largely a tool to facilitate the gradual access of features and add coherence and cohesion to the progression.

Story is the foundation of movies. Ideally, the first thing you begin with is a script. Thus, as with games, when you want the gameplay to be as tight as possible, with all the other aspects hopefully just as refined but ultimately not quite as pivotal, if you have a movie that isn't well written, even if everything else is great, it's still going to be, at best, so-so. And one aspect of good writing is characterization.

So just because the source material is fairly one-dimensional both in narrative and characterization, it doesn't mean carrying over those shallow features isn't a mark against the movie. Because a movie is a story, and a game is a game. The movie looks better than Mario games, because movies are also visual. So it got the needed visual boost to be movie-quality. The writing, ideally, should also get a boost from game-quality to movie-quality.

I'm not saying people should've expected it. I didn't; I knew who was involved. But bad writing in movies is still a weakness, regardless of source material. Better writing just makes for a better movie. People generally expect video game movies not to be that great, and indeed they usually aren't. But expecting mediocrity doesn't erase the mediocrity.

And I know this is an animated kids movie, but that doesn't preclude good writing and characterization. Look at Disney, Pixar, Ghibli, etc. If the Lego movie can do it, theoretically any of them can. I mean there's a movie coming out based on a literal inanimate children's doll, and I bet it will be well written.

Fair but it is still movie where standards are different from games where in this case, story is the forefront of this medium. Even then, saying that depth isn't something to expect does sell the Mario series somewhat short because even in the games, the series isn't shy from adding depth and meaning in storytelling from examples like the RPGs or even titles like Sunshine, Galaxy 1 and Odyssey where add a few things to the spice up the plot.

That said however, I do think the overall story and plot was good for the most part but does feel like the writers had so much ideas they want to bring to bif screen that does feel very rushed. That 1h 30 mins runtime does nobody favors, should've been 2 to 2:30h to flesh things out.

Mario and Luigi and their relationship as brothers was definitely a strong highlight tho.

I'm not saying they shouldn't add anything to the characters or story at all since this is a movie we're talking about. But there's also the concern about how accurate the series is portrayed and Super Mario has always been a pure, colorful, action-adventure series with a very simple plot that's easy to follow. Even when there were times where they tried to shake up some things other games like the RPGs, there were just a few here and there and even those weren't that deep. So maybe a few things for the characters for the sake of the movie but not too detailed that it might give off the wrong impression of the series itself.

It would be a bad thing if somebody came from watching a Super Mario movie, thinking it has a deep story and deep characters that people could get caught up in, only to play something like the 2D Super Mario Bros. games after that and finding out that they're nowhere near close to that.