Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Hadokeyblade]

That rule gets stretched a bit with Pokemon, considering most of them use their anime voices.

But I love how that's your objection and not the fact the thing ****in' dwarves Ridley

Because Smash is the one place where size dont matter

 

[SPEN18]

I think part of the problem is that when it comes to box legends you have to play favorites. This is different from the situation with Starters, as that decision isn't locked behind a $60 paywall (unless you're LGPE). You add Zacian, you upset the ~11 million people that picked Shield. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only legendary added is the only "big" legend that's never been version exclusive. Maybe the existence of DLC will change this, neither of the big legendaries from the SWSH DLC were exclusive and it's not looking like the SV DLC will have those either, we'll see.

Picking a starter is still picking favorites, but at least all 3 starters are available in both versions. I could see them not wanting to play favorites with the version-exclusive legends from the most recent games, yeah. When it comes to picking box legends from past generations, I don't think that exclusivity would really be an issue anymore (for ex. I don't think version exclusivity rules out Lugia). But now we have circled back to the issue of them only considering mons from the most recent gen...
On Mewtwo...we probably have him because he's an icon on his own merits, not because they specifically wanted to include a legend and he was the best available choice without version exclusivity. Hard to say what would've happened if, say, Mewtwo had been exclusive to Green and Mew had been exclusive to Red.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

On the topic of Pokémon, what gen 9 Pokémon would you like to see as Pokéball mon? I think Tinkaton is an obvious choice, it's already a fan favorite and he could hit people with his hammer. I think the dolphin one could be a fun one. When it appears from a Poké ball, he will be the zero form and he'll just do weak attacks, but but if you attack it too much by accident he will transform into his hero form and do very strong attack.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

On the topic of Pokémon, what gen 9 Pokémon would you like to see as Pokéball mon? I think Tinkaton is an obvious choice, it's already a fan favorite and he could hit people with his hammer. I think the dolphin one could be a fun one. When it appears from a Poké ball, he will be the zero form and he'll just do weak attacks, but but if you attack it too much by accident he will transform into his hero form and do very strong attack.

It's been a bit but i'm pretty Pallafin gains this form to protect it's friends, so it would change into this form if your attacked. That makes a bit more sense.

 

[SPEN18]

Actually, when you look at this

Lugia doesn't seem impossible...
ya know, since we already have Zard in Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Mewtwo's an oddball. If it was version exclusive, it might've never had any movies. It being created by Team Rocket instead of a general lab might've never happened as its backstory could be different.

That said, its massive movie popularity also made a difference to why it's in Smash in the first place. Two notable movies(one is made for TV), and high game viability made for some pretty big popularity. If the movies and anime appearance didn't exist due to being an exclusive, yeah, it probably wouldn't be in Smash.

 

[HyperSomari64]

If the Pokémon can have their anime voices...

• Why Mario doesn't have pre-recorded, archived voice lines from Lou Albano? (the same goes with PAC-MAN and Marty Ingels)
• Why Yoshi and Diddy Kong aren't voiced by Andrew Sabiston
• Why King K. Rool is not voiced by Benedict Campbell? (assuming that he's still alive by this moment)
• Why Mega Man doesn't say "Sizzling Circuits"?
• Why Pit doesn't end all of his sentences with the "-icus" suffix?
• Why Ryu is not pronounced as "Rai-Uh"?

 

[RileyXY1]

I believe that of the starters it is Quaquaval who has the most moveset potential. But this might be an occasion where a starter doesn't get added.

 

[SPEN18]

Mewtwo's an oddball. If it was version exclusive, it might've never had any movies. It being created by Team Rocket instead of a general lab might've never happened as its backstory could be different.

That said, its massive movie popularity also made a difference to why it's in Smash in the first place. Two notable movies(one is made for TV), and high game viability made for some pretty big popularity. If the movies and anime appearance didn't exist due to being an exclusive, yeah, it probably wouldn't be in Smash.

But if he had been version exclusive but did still get the movies and popularity, then he may have still gotten in Smash. So the version exclusivity itself wouldn't necessarily have been an issue at least in theory; but as you allude to, if you're version-exclusive then you're unlikely to get any more favoritism than your counterpart and so the exclusivity can work against you in practice, even if nominally that's not a cited reason for not being chosen for Smash.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Some people assume that the Pokémon franchise became famous because of its anime series, but I would say that it has become famous for what it is, as a video game series.

I will say that even though I had no interest in playing the games, I still wanted to know what the series was about after seeing Pikachu in Smash and the anime was the perfect way for me to do that.

Gotta say, I kind of enjoyed the series. At least the first few seasons.

 

[cashregister9]

The good timeline would be Gholdengo being the 100th unique fighter in smash.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The good timeline would be Gholdengo being the 100th unique fighter in smash.

...

**** that's good.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But if he had been version exclusive but did still get the movies and popularity, then he may have still gotten in Smash. So the version exclusivity itself wouldn't necessarily have been an issue at least in theory; but as you allude to, if you're version-exclusive then you're unlikely to get any more favoritism than your counterpart and so the exclusivity can work against you in practice, even if nominally that's not a cited reason for not being chosen for Smash.

We do know the anime was used to help influence Sakurai's choices. If Mewtwo doesn't have a presence there, its chances lower. But yeah, true, it might've still gotten in due to some high popularity beyond the anime stuff.

Pichu and Jigglypuff are direct examples of this plus "easy clone". Neither were great in the games. Pikachu was notable in that it was so popular it took Clefairy's spot in being Ash's first Pokemon, cementing it as the de facto franchise mascot(though many games has its own version mascot, even if it's only optional like the starters were by proxy. So Charizard being on Red doesn't mean you have to choose it, etc.) Lucario was purely chosen for the movie factor, though. That's like the only one where it wasn't really based upon actual popularity where the anime is concerned. Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon were all reasonable popular in and out of the anime, though it was more the entire lines in general in the case of Ivysaur and Squirtle. Charizard blatantly blew its pre-evolutions out of the water. Greninja and Incineroar were the first that didn't have some popularity in the anime before being chosen or weren't tied to some movie in any way, making them stand out. Pure game advertisements, being fairly unique.

I honestly do wonder who we could've had if Mewtwo was never on the table.

 

[SPEN18]

I honestly do wonder who we could've had if Mewtwo was never on the table.

One guess is that we would've gotten solo Charizard in Melee. Even with that PT still could've happened in Brawl, since they already gave the transformation counterpart ZSS to the existing vet Samus.

But presumably anyone from Kanto or Johto would've been on the table. Gen 3 would've been too late regardless.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

One guess is that we would've gotten solo Charizard in Melee. Even with that PT still could've happened in Brawl, since they already gave the transformation counterpart ZSS to the existing vet Samus.

But presumably anyone from Kanto or Johto would've been on the table. Gen 3 would've been too late regardless.

Kind of. It depends what Pra_Mai actually was. Speculation was "Random", but it can't be that(due to not logically matching any properly written versions of Random). It doesn't match the normal naming scheme used for Pokemon characters either. On the other hand, we had some oddities for Roy in Melee too, so it's not out of the picture. Especially when Sakurai was willing to make a miniature clone of Sheik too(no, Toon_Sheik would not have been Tetra. It would've been named Tetra, period. Or at least something like Pirate. He named an extremely specific character variant, and he doesn't give super crazy names either. They all make some lick of sense). She never got off the table, but it does show his ideal choices can get downright silly at times(hell, PP makes more sense than making up a mini Sheik version. At least one exists in some way. I mean, yes, Giga Bowser is a new take on Large Bowser, but still).

Kanto/Johto, yup. Maybe Meowth? Clefairy as a Jigglypuff semi-clone? Scizor had some push. Starters. I'd say Charizard was probably the most likely next choice, though. But there's no real way to tell.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

One guess is that we would've gotten solo Charizard in Melee. Even with that PT still could've happened in Brawl, since they already gave the transformation counterpart ZSS to the existing vet Samus.

But presumably anyone from Kanto or Johto would've been on the table. Gen 3 would've been too late regardless.

I'm guessing the technology probably wasn't there for a Pokemon Trainer type, yet? I would say that if it's possible...Or just Meowth.

 

[SPEN18]

I'm guessing the technology probably wasn't there for a Pokemon Trainer type, yet? I would say that if it's possible...Or just Meowth.

They still had the Zelda/Sheik transformation so likely the PT concept was possible. But perhaps not thought of yet. And also PT would've taken a lot more work than Mewtwo, whereas solo Zard would've been closer to the amount of work it took to make Mewtwo.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think Zelda has 4 non clone reps since Ganondorf isn't a clone.

Ganondorf is more of a clone than Toon Link is.

Having moves that look kinda similar to another character doesn't make it a clone. They play nothing alike.

It's literally the definition of it. Mario and Dr. Mario play nothing alike, but Dr is absolutely a clone.

 

[Lenidem]

Lucina.

Like I said:

then there are no clones at all in Smash, except for the Echoes

Others are so divorced from the original you can barely tell, like Roy, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf. Like, you know their origins, but they play super differently

I can't be the only one to think there is a world of difference between Jigglypuff-Kirby and Ganondorf-Falcon.

 

[fogbadge]

Ganondorf is more of a clone than Toon Link is.

It's literally the definition of it. Mario and Dr. Mario play nothing alike, but Dr is absolutely a clone.

I misread that as ganondorf is a clone of toon link

 

[Lenidem]

I misread that as ganondorf is a clone of toon link

Talk about a plot twist!

 

[chocolatejr9]

So Poochy finally got added to Mario Kart. Now... we begin the Poochy for Smash movement.

 

[Lenidem]

So Poochy finally got added to Mario Kart. Now... we begin the Poochy for Smash movement.

I thought it was for MK8...

 

[Soy_Man]

Like I said:

Yes.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I thought it was for MK8...

I mean... MAYBE he'll come to MK8? Though we just had a Yoshi-centric update there.

 

[Lenidem]

Yes.

I gotta say I really don't understand your way of thinking. Lucina and Marth don't play the same, do they? So why pick this example and not Daisy or Richter?

 

[Soy_Man]

I gotta say I really don't understand your way of thinking. Lucina and Marth don't play the same, do they? So why pick this example and not Daisy or Richter?

The differences between Marth and Lucina aren't enough to call them separate characters, which can't be said about Ganondorf and Falcon.

 

[RileyXY1]

The differences between Marth and Lucina aren't enough to call them separate characters, which can't be said about Ganondorf and Falcon.

Lucina's lack of a tipper means that she plays entirely differently to Marth despite having an identical moveset. I don't even consider Lucina, Ken, and Chrom as Echoes unlike the games because of their more drastic gameplay alterations that completely change how you play as them compared to Marth, Ryu, and Roy respectively. It's telling that Lucina, Ken, and Chrom all have their own separate spots on the Ultimate tier list while Dark Samus, Daisy, Dark Pit, and Richter are all grouped with their base fighter.

 

[Soy_Man]

Lucina's lack of a tipper means that she plays entirely differently to Marth despite having an identical moveset. I don't even consider Lucina, Ken, and Chrom as Echoes unlike the games because of their more drastic gameplay alterations that completely change how you play as them compared to Marth, Ryu, and Roy respectively. It's telling that Lucina, Ken, and Chrom all have their own separate spots on the Ultimate tier list while Dark Samus, Daisy, Dark Pit, and Richter are all grouped with their base fighter.

I know Marth and Lucina have gameplay differences. I'm arguing that the degree of separation is obviously much greater with Ganondorf and Falcon than it is with Marth and Lucina. Hence why Lucina can be considered a clone while Ganondorf cannot, unless the bar for who you consider a clone is just really REALLY low.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

I mean... MAYBE he'll come to MK8? Though we just had a Yoshi-centric update there.

I think he's too late.

 

[silenthunder]

If the Pokémon can have their anime voices...

• Why Mario doesn't have pre-recorded, archived voice lines from Lou Albano? (the same goes with PAC-MAN and Marty Ingels)
• Why Yoshi and Diddy Kong aren't voiced by Andrew Sabiston
• Why King K. Rool is not voiced by Benedict Campbell? (assuming that he's still alive by this moment)
• Why Mega Man doesn't say "Sizzling Circuits"?
• Why Pit doesn't end all of his sentences with the "-icus" suffix?
• Why Ryu is not pronounced as "Rai-Uh"?

I use green MegaMan because of captain N

 

[Guynamednelson]

I thought it was for MK8...

The Yoshi's Island track debuted in MK8 and was always meant for Tour, just like Sky High Sundae.

also yeah it's probably too late for Poochy, the Wave 4 preview said that all the DLC drivers will be Mario Kart veterans and I'd barely consider him one if he literally became a racer today.

 

[Lenidem]

The Yoshi's Island track debuted in MK8 and was always meant for Tour, just like Sky High Sundae.

I didn't know that, thanks for the info.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I can't be the only one to think there is a world of difference between Jigglypuff-Kirby and Ganondorf-Falcon.

Both have a massive set of differences between the original and counterpart. Jigglypuff still shares enough statistics and abilities that it and Kirby can be played both as air demons, where Ganondorf has such a difference in speed and power he could only be played remotely similar in Melee. Ganondorf shares slightly more animations in comparison to Jigglypuff. They're basically both on the same level of cloneage(barely a clone in practice, due to such severe moveset differences), just in different ways.

Really, the only clone right now that is extremely similar to their counterpart that isn't an Echo at best is Dr. Mario. And he's more like a mishmash of Luigi and Mario at this point than just a retake on Mario purely.

 

[Stratos]

I have a question about Nintendo Pictures which is a Japanese animation studio owned by Nintendo as it is known and as its name suggests, any movie that comes from Japan where will be based on Nintendo games will released by Nintendo Pictures itself?

 

[Aaayei]

I have a question about Nintendo Pictures which is a Japanese animation studio owned by Nintendo as it is known and as its name suggests, any movie that comes from Japan where will be based on Nintendo games will released by Nintendo Pictures itself?

I'm gonna be honest, I think it's gonna mostly be used for in-game/advertising cinematics, but time will tell.

 

[Lenidem]

Both have a massive set of differences between the original and counterpart. Jigglypuff still shares enough statistics and abilities that it and Kirby can be played both as air demons, where Ganondorf has such a difference in speed and power he could only be played remotely similar in Melee. Ganondorf shares slightly more animations in comparison to Jigglypuff. They're basically both on the same level of cloneage(barely a clone in practice, due to such severe moveset differences), just in different ways.

I guess it's true as long as you never press the B-button. How can you play Kirby and Puff the same way when one of them rolls and puts his opponents to sleep while the other copies their abilities?

Besides, if a significant "difference in speed and power" is enough for a character not to be considered a clone, then if you take any character, tweek his speed, weight, and/or strength, and leave everything else untouched, by your definition, the result will not be a clone, because he will play differently.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I guess it's true as long as you never press the B-button. How can you play Kirby and Puff the same way when one of them rolls and puts his opponents to sleep while the other copies their abilities?

Besides, if a significant "difference in speed and power" is enough for a character not to be considered a clone, then if you take any character, tweek his speed, weight, and strength, and leave everything else untouched, by your definition, the result will not be a clone, because he will play differently.

Spoiler: Long

They're both different in different ways is what I actually said. Jigglypuff plays similarly in concept due to their core point of both being air demons, Ganondorf plays differently by having such severe speed and power and approach differences that they're still nothing alike in practice.

I don't see any core difference in cloneage, because they're both ultimately the same level of differences. Just equivalent differences. JIgglypuff always shared moves with Kirby, those were just more A moves. It also played very similarly to Kirby in its first appearance, only separating in Melee. ...Ganondorf worked the same way, playing mostly the same as Falcon(but even in Melee, they still required a different strategy due to highly different statistics), sharing a good majority of A moves(less than Jigglypuff, mind you), and only the B moves. So what happened? Jigglypuff didn't get a huge change of A moves, so it still branches clearly from Kirby, still using him as a base to this day, sharing multiple animations. Ganondorf did... the same thing, but also changed up one B move entirely, and shares a pretty small amount of A moves. The differences in who has more unique moves from the original counterpart is... pretty subtle. That's because they're both semi-clones that are highly divorced from their counterparts. Just in, as I said, clearly different ways.

Though Ganondorf playing almost nothing like Falcon in comparison does matter, as he doesn't gain the same advantages either. Jigglypuff still plays fairly close to Kirby's style in practice. So there's a huge world of difference between Falcon and Ganondorf in practice, and... a smaller, but still reasonably large, difference between Kirby and Jigglypuff.

It's not just about animations, but playstyle because of using said character as a base that actually separates them heavily. Moveset Clone doesn't mean much if they play nothing alike too as a term. And even then, Jigglypuff is blatantly still taking from Kirby's moveset to quite a large degree, so it's silly to say it's actually not a clone at all anymore than saying Ganondorf isn't one. Both still borrow heavily while having some hefty differences(again, in different ways). There is no one-size-fits-all label for how they're handled. They're both barely clones. In he "moveset clone" sense. Model Swap Fighters? Yes, they'll always be that unless Kirby and/or Falcon get removed from the game, anyway.

For the record, Toon Link isn't really a Model Swap Fighter of Link either, for a nice interesting example. Despite this, he is a Moveset Clone due to sharing the same animations... by proxy. He was retooled from Young Link, not Link, as they didn't have remotely similar proportions to use Link as a base anymore(unlike Link to Young Link). In return, Ultimate used Toon Link to recreate Young Link. Meaning even by then, Young Link was no longer a Model Swap Fighter of Link(but still a Moveset Clone). I'm bringing this up to show that Model Swap Fighters and Moveset Clone are not actual synonyms either. They never were. They serve different purposes. Ness is a Model Swap Fighter, but he isn't a Moveset Clone. Falcon started off as both from Samus, though he's the most divorced from his counterpart as the original bonus characters were in 64(that could be a type of Moveset Clone). Coincidentally Ganondorf followed the same pattern starting from Brawl, massively diverging from the original. A ton of characters also share animations that aren't Model Swap Fighters by design nor any kind of Moveset Clone, further going into my point of how they don't mean the same thing.

The other thing to keep in mind is cases like Wolf where he has, what, sharing less than 10 animations from Fox? He's almost identical to the point behind Ness, using a similar model, but a completely different moveset. The thing you have to remember is it's not about pressing A or B specifically. Kirby and Jigglypuff still shares multitudes of A moves. Jigglypuff still at the end of the day is a Model Swap of Kirby, and is a divergent Moveset Clone. Not any really different from how Ganondorf is from Falcon. They follow the exact same philosophy; don't severely change their playstyle, but still change and give them new moves. (There's a very tiny amount of characters who outright changed playstyles anyway. Link since gaining the Gale Boomerang... as well as losing it as his Hookshot variants, Bowser going wrestler, and Pit losing his glide but also gaining some more unique moves in 4).

Either way, trying to put a "one size fits all" category on any of them ultimately doesn't work.

 

[Wonder Smash]

A while ago I said that I wouldn't be surprised if Smash took some things from the Double Dragon series.

Now I'm starting to think that I'm probably not that far off because maybe it could be from the Kunio-kun series, which is made by the same company? What if the Smash Bros. gameplay was actually inspired by Downtown Nekketsu March Super-Awesome Field Day? Specifically, the Battle Royal?

It features a 4-player fighting arena with items where, aside from depleting their health, you can also win by knocking your opponents off the platform.

Plus, the game was really popular in Japan. I wonder is Sakurai is a fan of it?

 

[silenthunder]

A while ago I said that I wouldn't be surprised if Smash took some things from the Double Dragon series. Now I'm starting to think that I'm probably not that far off because maybe it could be from the Kunio-kun series, which is made by the same company? What if the Smash Bros. gameplay was actually inspired by Downtown Nekketsu March Super-Awesome Field Day? Specifically, the Battle Royal? It features a 4-player fighting arena with items where, aside from depleting their health, you can also win by knocking your opponents off the platform. Plus, the game was really popular in Japan. I wonder is Sakurai is fan of it? I'm interested in what came first, smash or rakugaki showtime. They are both similar and they have the same final boss. (Except the hand has a pencil in rakugaki showtime.