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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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which is why most character pre 4 could use touching up, smash 4 newcomers should be the standard going forwards
No they shouldn't. They focus more on canon than having an easy to use and functional moveset. Rosalina is decent at having a good flow, but MegaMan, while fun, is very difficult to use efficiently because of having no focus. On the other hand, Duck Hunt doesn't focus on canon ability and flows way better. Same with Pac-Man. DLC characters did this better(Ryu, Cloud, Bayonetta), but the last two became overpowered too quickly, breaking the game's balance(unsurprisingly, function is more important than canon once again).

Canon is not honestly important. Function and moveset flow always should come first. If that works well with canon moves, sweet. If it doesn't, then trying to shove canon moves in essentially breaks the game's balance and makes the character difficult to work with, and not in a "challenge yourself to become better" kind of way. This isn't Fox in Melee, who is far more difficult to use in 64 due to his kill moves being massively less powerful. This is having so many moves the functioning part suffers. I love MegaMan, but his flow is awful. He's held back quite severely from being way better, especially since he has some really good moves on its own, but lacks the flow to put them together. Middle tier isn't bad, but keep in mind this is the tier even Ganondorf was in during Melee(and even 14 out of 26 isn't bad). That's not saying he doesn't look cool with those moves(he does!), but that doesn't mean he plays well either.

Canon Moves =/= Good Moveset.
 

SpecterFlower

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No they shouldn't. They focus more on canon than having an easy to use and functional moveset. Rosalina is decent at having a good flow, but MegaMan, while fun, is very difficult to use efficiently because of having no focus. On the other hand, Duck Hunt doesn't focus on canon ability and flows way better. Same with Pac-Man. DLC characters did this better(Ryu, Cloud, Bayonetta), but the last two became overpowered too quickly, breaking the game's balance(unsurprisingly, function is more important than canon once again).

Canon is not honestly important. Function and moveset flow always should come first. If that works well with canon moves, sweet. If it doesn't, then trying to shove canon moves in essentially breaks the game's balance and makes the character difficult to work with, and not in a "challenge yourself to become better" kind of way. This isn't Fox in Melee, who is far more difficult to use in 64 due to his kill moves being massively less powerful. This is having so many moves the functioning part suffers. I love MegaMan, but his flow is awful. He's held back quite severely from being way better, especially since he has some really good moves on its own, but lacks the flow to put them together. Middle tier isn't bad, but keep in mind this is the tier even Ganondorf was in during Melee(and even 14 out of 26 isn't bad). That's not saying he doesn't look cool with those moves(he does!), but that doesn't mean he plays well either.

Canon Moves =/= Good Moveset.
Correlation =/= causation. The aim should be for both rather than one or the other. For examples that are canon and have a fun gameplay loop: meta knight, snake, pit, villager, wii gif trainer, Rosalina, greninja, pac man, robin -‘s pretty much everyone who came after that, the examples of canon movers turning out good are much more numerous than the opposite.
 

Hadokeyblade

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Isn't the big issue that ARMS is tied to joy con controls?

Also couldn't they have a mii style custom fire emblem character that you change the tilts, appearance and specials of? I mean all the characters in three houses are based off of around 5 sets of animations for battle and non battle, with a few extra for unique classes.

It could be a way of allowing for a very large number of potential fe characters while also cutting down the CSS.
Man, i really misread when i read "Tilts"

My brain went to Camilla.
 

Ramen Tengoku

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Keep in mind ARMS was done by the same people who do Mario Kart, it's not gonna be their #1 priority. Just because it didn't immediately get a sequel doesn't mean it's necessarily dead.

I think it says a lot they randomly pushed it for pass 2 in 2020. I think it shows they still have at least some interest in the IP.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think a sequel is guaranteed, but i think it's too early to call it necessarily dead.

I tried to write this as unbiased as could with a Min Min inspired name and avi , I swear
 
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SpecterFlower

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Keep in mind ARMS was done by the same people who do Mario Kart, it's not gonna be their #1 priority. Just because it didn't immediately get a sequel doesn't mean it's necessarily dead.

I think it says a lot they randomly pushed it for pass 2 in 2020. I think it shows they still have at least some interest in the IP.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think a sequel is guaranteed, but i think it's too early to call it necessarily dead.

I tried to write this as unbiased as could with a Min Min inspired name and avi , I swear
They also randomly cancelled the graphic novel, I really love the game, I have over 100 hours In it, it just feels so dead. I’m hoping we get a sequel though.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I’m not even gonna bother arguing this cause this is the stupidest comparison you could make, yes ARMS sold pretty well, however Nintendo canceled everything to do with the series after like 2019.

maybe a more apt comparison from my end is sushi strikers
Min Min was put into Smash after 2019. Min Min also showed up in Kazuya's and Sora's trailers as prominent characters.

People really be bullying ARMS after it was included. Sheesh.
 

CannonStreak

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Nobody hates arms more than arms fans.
Here is what I don't get; provided that this is true, how can fans be fans of something such as ARMS if they hate it? Sure, fans can hate some things, but I never heard of fans completely hating a series they are supposed to like.

Maybe I am wasting my time writing this, but I just had to know.
 

Opossum

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They also randomly cancelled the graphic novel, I really love the game, I have over 100 hours In it, it just feels so dead. I’m hoping we get a sequel though.
I mean in fairness Nintendo is no stranger to cancelling things they themselves only license out and aren't directly a part of producing. Biggest example I can think of is when they straight up canned the Zelda Netflix series after they got upset at it leaking. They're incredibly fickle.
 

SpecterFlower

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Here is what I don't get; provided that this is true, how can fans be fans of something such as ARMS if they hate it? Sure, fans can hate some things, but I never heard of fans completely hating a series they are supposed to like.

Maybe I am wasting my time writing this, but I just had to know.
It’s an exaggeration, the hardcore arms fan base used to clown on anyone who expects a sequel. The year min min was added other stuff was planned for the game, however everything but min min got canceled and from then on Nintendo Bassically never mentioned the game again, it really sucked to be in the community at that time cause it was just L after L for the series. And because the Mario kart team is doing dlc and working on 9 it will proabably be years before the next game, there will be a sequel I think but in general there was a large feeling of hopelessness I guess you could say? The community is a lot smaller now and we generally just enjoy what we have. I just consider myself lucky that min-min got in cause she was mine of my most wanted characters.
 

CannonStreak

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It’s an exaggeration, the hardcore arms fan base used to clown on anyone who expects a sequel. The year min min was added other stuff was planned for the game, however everything but min min got canceled and from then on Nintendo Bassically never mentioned the game again, it really sucked to be in the community at that time cause it was just L after L for the series. And because the Mario kart team is doing dlc and working on 9 it will proabably be years before the next game, there will be a sequel I think but in general there was a large feeling of hopelessness I guess you could say? The community is a lot smaller now and we generally just enjoy what we have. I just consider myself lucky that min-min got in cause she was mine of my most wanted characters.
I see. I knew it had to be something like an exaggeration. Still I was never into ARMS, but I do think it could return at some point. I am surprised ARMS has a small community, though.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Correlation =/= causation. The aim should be for both rather than one or the other. For examples that are canon and have a fun gameplay loop: meta knight, snake, pit, villager, wii gif trainer, Rosalina, greninja, pac man, robin -‘s pretty much everyone who came after that, the examples of canon movers turning out good are much more numerous than the opposite.
And that led to Meta Knight being severely overpowered, not "balanced properly". Snake wasn't much better, being rather OP(though he still had to have a fair amount of moves made up as is, and a lot of stuff wasn't allowed. He couldn't have regular guns nor his knife, changing his options quite a bit).

Robin suffers a lot from the gimmick, being even worse than MegaMan. Wii Fit Trainer is an awful character balance-wise and is near bottom tier. Pit, again, is Pre-4, so that doesn't mean anything when you're talking about applying Smash 4 standards. He's also mid tier in Brawl, with the Gliding already being pretty broken as a concept(which is why it's gone in 4). Speaking of, in 4, Pit took a nosedive when they changed his moveset up quite a bit, including gliding being gone as part of what affects him.

Most of the time, the thing that actually makes these characters balanced has nothing to do with canon. It's actual proper work on the functionality and tweaks to make sure they aren't overpowered or underpowered. So... no, canon has nothing to do with making them flow well. They only flow well because of the work done. Canon doesn't have any inherent relevance to good gameplay flow in any way. It works sometimes, it doesn't otherwise. What still matters always is proper gameplay balance first. If and only if a canon move works should it be used. Which is actually why so many characters are terribly balanced, because they tried harder to be canon and less so to be functionally reasonable. Meta Knight is the only one who focused on canon and was nerfed properly in the next game(which is one of the very few times this worked out decently. He still dropped from his own tier to a few tiers below, but is above average). If we want to go further, Pac-Man isn't about canon either? So I'm not sure why you're bringing him up. He represents the Arcade games, not simply his own(with a pretty small amount of moves directly based upon what he can do). He coincidentally is also low tier.

Even funnier is Villager still can't break mid tier despite being canon. On the other hand, Mewtwo in 4 is high tier despite barely being about his canon abilities. Basically? Canon isn't taken into account with good moveset functionality and balance. It needs to take a backseat because it can create vastly overpowered characters like Meta Knight and pre-Ultimate Bayonetta. It doesn't work out as a good idea. If you can't make the gameplay balance work well, then the character isn't well-made overall. Adhering to canon almost always causes more issues as almost all of them have balance problems in some way. Greninja isn't adhering well to canon either, for the record.

So... no, canon moves aren't actually important to a properly functioning character. They're a visual bonus in the long run. That doesn't mean they don't look neat, but if they cannot flow, then they're not actual good moves for a character. How a character functions is most important, as every character is put into a competitive situation. Despite Ganondorf never being outright good, his issues never were with being non-canon. It's because they massively reduced his speed, making him unable to keep up with most characters, making him a major punching bag. Smash 4 barely remedied this with some super armor, which let him be slightly better in comparison to his placement in Brawl. As Ultimate has no clear tier list, it's impossible to say how well he does there. He was obviously buffed, but that doesn't mean anything without better data.

You can easily make a character look properly like themselves and feel right without worrying about canon moves in themselves. Ganondorf is still the epitome of power and terror. He still flows like a being with immense strength can be, while using magical power behind his attacks is his thing. He, again, doesn't suffer from lack of canon moves. He suffers from no way to deal with projectiles and fast characters whatsoever, which is what keeps him bad. the former is easy with a reflect ability. The latter is pretty much not something you can easily do without making him play entirely differently(and at that point, just make a new character if you want a new playstyle).
 
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HyperSomari64

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I mean in fairness Nintendo is no stranger to cancelling things they themselves only license out and aren't directly a part of producing. Biggest example I can think of is when they straight up canned the Zelda Netflix series after they got upset at it leaking. They're incredibly fickle.
There was also a Star Fox show by CollegeHumor at Netflix that was canned with the Zelda series.
 

Lenidem

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Ganondorf is still the epitome of power and terror. He still flows like a being with immense strength can be, while using magical power behind his attacks is his thing. He, again, doesn't suffer from lack of canon moves.
If you reduce a character to a vague impression ("power and terror"), then yeah, you will be easily satisfied. But when a character in Smash doesn't fight at all like he does in any of his fights in the series, there is something wrong.
He suffers from no way to deal with projectiles and fast characters whatsoever, which is what keeps him bad.
This has nothing to do with the canonicity of the moves.
the former is easy with a reflect ability. The latter is pretty much not something you can easily do without making him play entirely differently(and at that point, just make a new character if you want a new playstyle).
Ganonorf should have had a different playstyle from the beginning.
 

chocolatejr9

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I mean in fairness Nintendo is no stranger to cancelling things they themselves only license out and aren't directly a part of producing. Biggest example I can think of is when they straight up canned the Zelda Netflix series after they got upset at it leaking. They're incredibly fickle.
Given some of the recent stuff with Netflix, that might have been a blessing in disguise...
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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If you reduce a character to a vague impression ("power and terror"), then yeah, you will be easily satisfied. But when a character in Smash doesn't fight at all like he does in any of his fights in the series, there is something wrong.
He fights like a powerhouse and has magic. "Nothing like" is clearly exaggerating here. He has tons of animations, fights physically and magically too. Yes, he fights like himself, just not as much as everyone wants.

This has nothing to do with the canonicity of the moves.
It absolutely does. Cause the context was about how to balance Ganondorf and why canon moves aren't necessary to do so. At most, it might've seemed a bit off from the wording. My bad on that. Even when I say reflector, I don't mean it's because he has a canonical one, but it's just one way to deal with projectiles. Hell, it's the only canon move these days that can still flow well with his character without alienating anyone, which is a very strong premise(and the general way the games work. And for good reasons. Alienating past players is a terrible goal, and the only thing that happens when you do massive overhauls. Buffs and nerfs don't do this, because the character still plays generally the same).

Ganonorf should have had a different playstyle from the beginning.
Not really, no. You had Toon Ganondorf who is hyper fast and barely uses magic or... TP Ganondorf who is hyper slow, doesn't even use that much magic, and is an odd swordfighter. You weren't getting a purely magical fighter like some of his boss fights. Those require a completely different playstyle that doesn't flow at all like an actual power-based character. His lack of a projectile is a core balancing factor in itself, nor does he need one, since his issue is dealing with projectiles. A projectile constantly being reflected at him back would land him in the same position as he is now; bad. Magic isn't his only forte.

If we were going to get a magical projectile focused one, it would've only been Pig Ganon. He's the actual magic user at the core. Ganondorf is a physical and magical user at the core. But to be frank, we would've probably not even gotten him if it weren't for him being based upon his physical abilities from OOT and the Tech Demo combined, so it's a pretty lucky thing. Again, if you want a different playstyle, hope for another character. There's no good reason to alienate the fanbase when Ganondorf just needs buffs, not massive overhauls. No character ever needs a massive overhaul, just buffs and nerfs. We've had massive overhauls before, and they're not fun to play as anymore for any previous player. You can't just adapt to them. They're godawful ideas that eliminate what made them interesting in the first place.

Albeit, even the massive overhauls didn't completely change them, but still have had some pretty big alienation; Link suffers massively from instead of just adding another one, by changing an already updated version since Brawl(he's somewhat better as a character, but now much more awkward to use). Bowser got awkward to use due to constantly changing his moves' own functionalities even as far as Brawl, and then completely overhauling his playstyle so he barely resembles the powerful dragon he was designed as. He's better, sure, but very alienating. Pit, as I noted, got some pretty big changes in 4, only to turn out to be far worse as a character(not just removing gliding alone). Roy is pretty much it for someone who changed it up and got better overall. Pichu is an example of them doing it better by just buffing the character instead of unnecessary changes that don't really make them flow well.

Again, just make a new character. There's zero legitimate reason to alienate a fanbase with these kind of overhauls. If they want to add something like a "playstyle option", that's fine too. The most important part is that the original moveset designs are still very unique and keep the character interesting for what they are. They flow right. Buffing them(or nerfing in a few cases) always did a lot better in changing it up for balance. Overhauls never really had a truly positive effect for the playerbase.
 
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SPEN18

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I don't think competitive tier lists are usually evidence of good or bad moveset design/functionality. No matter how well-balanced the game is and no matter how well-designed the movesets are, there will be a meta and people will make tier lists centered around that meta. A character can "feel" great to use for casual players or even intermediate and relatively advanced ones (i.e. like 99% of the player base) while still being low tier in the competitive scene. And a character with the exact same moveset can usually be made lower-tier or higher-tier simply by adjusting parameters like hitboxes, lag, damage, and knockback (so long as the core of the moveset is reasonably balanced to begin with; and indeed essentially none of the movesets in Smash are so out of balance that some parameter changes couldn't move them dramatically up or down).

I don't have a problem with made-up moves when they make sense for the character but the character in Smash still has to capture the essence of the source material. Otherwise Smash's crossover aspect would just be an empty husk and a cheap marketing draw rather than the essential component that it is. Canon moves don't guarantee strong functionality but basically always there is a way to represent a character well and capture their essence without making it too under- or over-powered. MK and Bayo wouldn't feel any less representative of their sources with proper balancing; it is simply a matter of adjusting parameters and implementing proper drawbacks to ostensibly powerful moves. That's the beauty of mechanics like endlag and such; they don't make the move feel any less powerful to use even if in practice they dramatically lower its effectiveness. Focusing on canon is not what made Brawl!MK or 4!Bayo so OP. Using "canon moves" has nothing to do with making characters as competitively strong as their abilities say that they should be; it's a means to the end of capturing their essence in crossover form.
 

SpecterFlower

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I don't think competitive tier lists are usually evidence of good or bad moveset design/functionality. No matter how well-balanced the game is and no matter how well-designed the movesets are, there will be a meta and people will make tier lists centered around that meta. A character can "feel" great to use for casual players or even intermediate and relatively advanced ones (i.e. like 99% of the player base) while still being low tier in the competitive scene. And a character with the exact same moveset can usually be made lower-tier or higher-tier simply by adjusting parameters like hitboxes, lag, damage, and knockback (so long as the core of the moveset is reasonably balanced to begin with; and indeed essentially none of the movesets in Smash are so out of balance that some parameter changes couldn't move them dramatically up or down).

I don't have a problem with made-up moves when they make sense for the character but the character in Smash still has to capture the essence of the source material. Otherwise Smash's crossover aspect would just be an empty husk and a cheap marketing draw rather than the essential component that it is. Canon moves don't guarantee strong functionality but basically always there is a way to represent a character well and capture their essence without making it too under- or over-powered. MK and Bayo wouldn't feel any less representative of their sources with proper balancing; it is simply a matter of adjusting parameters and implementing proper drawbacks to ostensibly powerful moves. That's the beauty of mechanics like endlag and such; they don't make the move feel any less powerful to use even if in practice they dramatically lower its effectiveness. Focusing on canon is not what made Brawl!MK or 4!Bayo so OP. Using "canon moves" has nothing to do with making characters as competitively strong as their abilities say that they should be; it's a means to the end of capturing their essence in crossover form.
I think a good example is inceneroar, defintly not meta but his play style is immensely satisfying.
He fights like a powerhouse and has magic. "Nothing like" is clearly exaggerating here. He has tons of animations, fights physically and magically too. Yes, he fights like himself, just not as much as everyone wants.


It absolutely does. Cause the context was about how to balance Ganondorf and why canon moves aren't necessary to do so. At most, it might've seemed a bit off from the wording. My bad on that. Even when I say reflector, I don't mean it's because he has a canonical one, but it's just one way to deal with projectiles. Hell, it's the only canon move these days that can still flow well with his character without alienating anyone, which is a very strong premise(and the general way the games work. And for good reasons. Alienating past players is a terrible goal, and the only thing that happens when you do massive overhauls. Buffs and nerfs don't do this, because the character still plays generally the same).


Not really, no. You had Toon Ganondorf who is hyper fast and barely uses magic or... TP Ganondorf who is hyper slow, doesn't even use that much magic, and is an odd swordfighter. You weren't getting a purely magical fighter like some of his boss fights. Those require a completely different playstyle that doesn't flow at all like an actual power-based character. His lack of a projectile is a core balancing factor in itself, nor does he need one, since his issue is dealing with projectiles. A projectile constantly being reflected at him back would land him in the same position as he is now; bad. Magic isn't his only forte.

If we were going to get a magical projectile focused one, it would've only been Pig Ganon. He's the actual magic user at the core. Ganondorf is a physical and magical user at the core. But to be frank, we would've probably not even gotten him if it weren't for him being based upon his physical abilities from OOT and the Tech Demo combined, so it's a pretty lucky thing. Again, if you want a different playstyle, hope for another character. There's no good reason to alienate the fanbase when Ganondorf just needs buffs, not massive overhauls. No character ever needs a massive overhaul, just buffs and nerfs. We've had massive overhauls before, and they're not fun to play as anymore for any previous player. You can't just adapt to them. They're godawful ideas that eliminate what made them interesting in the first place.

Albeit, even the massive overhauls didn't completely change them, but still have had some pretty big alienation; Link suffers massively from instead of just adding another one, by changing an already updated version since Brawl(he's somewhat better as a character, but now much more awkward to use). Bowser got awkward to use due to constantly changing his moves' own functionalities even as far as Brawl, and then completely overhauling his playstyle so he barely resembles the powerful dragon he was designed as. He's better, sure, but very alienating. Pit, as I noted, got some pretty big changes in 4, only to turn out to be far worse as a character(not just removing gliding alone). Roy is pretty much it for someone who changed it up and got better overall. Pichu is an example of them doing it better by just buffing the character instead of unnecessary changes that don't really make them flow well.

Again, just make a new character. There's zero legitimate reason to alienate a fanbase with these kind of overhauls. If they want to add something like a "playstyle option", that's fine too. The most important part is that the original moveset designs are still very unique and keep the character interesting for what they are. They flow right. Buffing them(or nerfing in a few cases) always did a lot better in changing it up for balance. Overhauls never really had a truly positive effect for the playerbase.
This is silly and goofy, meta knight being broken wasn’t because his moves were canon, earlier you said mega man sucked because his moves were canon, canon moves have literally nothing to do with how a character feels to play, it’s how they implement it. And about the last paragraph yknow what’s cool about that? Remember echo fighters? Now they can be unique fighters using the same moveset for fans of old characters.
 
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SPEN18

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I'm gonna add that I don't have a problem with Mega Man; like, I see how he could feel sort of quirky to use but that is honestly part of his charm and part of what makes him himself. And again, even if that style is by itself suboptimal for competitive play, then you can probably fix that by adjusting parameters or giving him other boons in line with his canon abilities that help to remedy his weaknesses.

Requests for overhauls sometimes gain motivation from apparently poor balancing, like with Ganondorf or Little Mac, but from my end it's more about making a character feel like themselves. Again so that the crossover aspect remains part of the core and not an afterthought.
 

Sucumbio

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Some characters play much better to their strengths in FFA or even teams but fall apart in 1v1. Competitive smash players have essentially tried and failed to lift Ganondorf beyond mid tier at best and throughout all his appearances.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I think a good example is inceneroar, defintly not meta but his play style is immensely satisfying.
He's also not terribly canon and has multiple made up moves? So I'm not sure what the point is here.

This is silly and goofy, meta knight being broken wasn’t because his moves were canon, earlier you said mega man sucked because his moves were canon, canon moves have literally nothing to do with how a character feels to play, it’s how they implement it. And about the last paragraph yknow what’s cool about that? Remember echo fighters? Now they can be unique fighters using the same moveset for fans of old characters.
The point is still that canon moves don't inherently matter and will always take a backseat to proper moveset implementation. Which comes first from moveset flow and how one can imagine them as. Canon moves don't actually matter to that design and are a secondary bonus to a good moveset.

MegaMan doesn't actually suck, though? I said he was mid tier and that he's awkward to use because he has no real moveset flow. These are completely different things.

Echo Fighters don't work that way. They're a very specific function that they need to play similarly to their counterpart. If you completely rehaul a character, their Echo Fighter will play similarly to their new style, not the old one. Those are just another different kind of clone. So... no, that wouldn't work. Now the fact they didn't bother using custom moves for some Echoes to help further make them unique(mainly applies to Dark Samus and Daisy, though. Ken nor Richter have that option, not that the former needs it obviously) is a different issue altogether. But even then, Bowser in Melee/Brawl and Bowser in 4/Ultimate function quite differently to the point the other would be nothing more than a semi-clone at best. If you want another Ganondorf? You make another Ganondorf. If you want Black Shadow with his older moveset, well, now that I think of it further, he wouldn't be an Echo Fighter because the Ganondorf in Ultimate functions very differently from the Ganondorf in 4. They're effectively different characters to the point of semi-clone. Black Shadow's body design is that of Ganondorf(not Falcon), but that doesn't do anything. He'd make for a good semi-clone of the current Ganondorf, but as I said above, can't work as an Echo Fighter because they're way too different. The changes would be well beyond Ryu-Ken, who despite having some pretty unique stuff, actually function quite similarly. And even then, Ken is pretty arguably a semi-clone at heart, with too many differences. No other Echo Fighter comes close(and even in said Black Shadow example, he'd be far more different than Ken is to Ryu, sooooooooo... still too different).

I could go on, but the point is, Echo Fighters are not feasible for an alternate playstyle if the purpose is to actually overhaul a character entirely. They only work if they're blatantly based upon the current design and said current design is kept(not heavily changed).

But fair enough that Canon and Tier Lists aren't a good correlation. I'll concede on that point in itself.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,478
I think a lot of this comes down that there's certain people that want a fresher experience with the roster vs those that don't. The former might be rooted in certain characters not feeling closer to canon, balancing problems, or just a lot of fighters feeling stale, but there's definitely a sense by some of overall wanting the roster to move on from what the series has collectively built to in Ultimate.
 
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Gengar84

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 9, 2009
Messages
6,792
I enjoy playing Ganondorf as he is and I’ve mained him since Melee but I wouldn’t mind seeing him get a complete overhaul to his moveset to match his canon abilities. I’d personally love to see him pull from the entire history of the character including pig Ganon. Giving him the trident from his pig form and pulling moves from older games like the Fire bats and trident toss as well as others like Ganondorf’s Dead Man’s Volley from OoT could be fun. I also think he should float for his running animation like Cloud and Sephiroth and a few other animations.

Here’s a rough idea of what I was thinking for his specials:

Neutral special - Dead Man’s Volley - This is a chargeable projectile but the charge can’t be stored. If he charges on the ground, he floats upwards as he charges it and shoots it diagonally downwards. In the air, it can’t charge but still shoots diagonally downwards. Uncharged on the ground, he shoots the blast straight forward.

Forward special: Fire bats - this one is a bit different than how it is in his game and acts as more of a flamethrower like move of a medium range constant swarm of flaming bats.

Up special: Trident toss - Ganondorf tosses the trident in one of eight directions and teleports to its location damaging anyone it touches.

Down special: Ground pound: This is kind of similar to Bowser’s down special but he slams the ground with his fist.
 

SpecterFlower

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
859
He's also not terribly canon and has multiple made up moves? So I'm not sure what the point is here.


The point is still that canon moves don't inherently matter and will always take a backseat to proper moveset implementation. Which comes first from moveset flow and how one can imagine them as. Canon moves don't actually matter to that design and are a secondary bonus to a good moveset.

MegaMan doesn't actually suck, though? I said he was mid tier and that he's awkward to use because he has no real moveset flow. These are completely different things.

Echo Fighters don't work that way. They're a very specific function that they need to play similarly to their counterpart. If you completely rehaul a character, their Echo Fighter will play similarly to their new style, not the old one. Those are just another different kind of clone. So... no, that wouldn't work. Now the fact they didn't bother using custom moves for some Echoes to help further make them unique(mainly applies to Dark Samus and Daisy, though. Ken nor Richter have that option, not that the former needs it obviously) is a different issue altogether. But even then, Bowser in Melee/Brawl and Bowser in 4/Ultimate function quite differently to the point the other would be nothing more than a semi-clone at best. If you want another Ganondorf? You make another Ganondorf. If you want Black Shadow with his older moveset, well, now that I think of it further, he wouldn't be an Echo Fighter because the Ganondorf in Ultimate functions very differently from the Ganondorf in 4. They're effectively different characters to the point of semi-clone. Black Shadow's body design is that of Ganondorf(not Falcon), but that doesn't do anything. He'd make for a good semi-clone of the current Ganondorf, but as I said above, can't work as an Echo Fighter because they're way too different. The changes would be well beyond Ryu-Ken, who despite having some pretty unique stuff, actually function quite similarly. And even then, Ken is pretty arguably a semi-clone at heart, with too many differences. No other Echo Fighter comes close(and even in said Black Shadow example, he'd be far more different than Ken is to Ryu, sooooooooo... still too different).

I could go on, but the point is, Echo Fighters are not feasible for an alternate playstyle if the purpose is to actually overhaul a character entirely. They only work if they're blatantly based upon the current design and said current design is kept(not heavily changed).

But fair enough that Canon and Tier Lists aren't a good correlation. I'll concede on that point in itself.
you missed the point, they won’t be echo fighters anymore, they’ll be entirely unique characters using said character they are a clone of moves the form the previous game without changing it into a new one.

also inceneror was doen really well, they took canon moves like dark lariat and reanimated and contextualized them for smash as to what they would be like irl and based the rest of what he has off of wrestling moves, he’s an example of using Canon moves, making up moves andputting His general style into it, he’s extremly expressive and plays like you would imagine Incinaroar would play.
That’s an example of a character feeing like a homage rather than a love set, Kirby doesn’t feel like an homage to the Kirby series he feels like a moveset was made and then out into Kirby, he doesn’t play like you would imagine Kirby too.

the crossover aspect is the most important part of smash, and that should be strengthened.
 

Hadokeyblade

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
10,841
Smash did the impressive and made Incineroar kinda charming.


I do not like how this Pokemon looks in the actual Pokemon games, mainly because 3D pokemon models are so lifeless, but Smash gave him such personality.
 

JOJONumber691

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,791
So, I'm doing this project where I'm making an Ideal Smash Game. But considering how overly methodical I am, I want to get as many people involved as possible. So, if any of you want to share yours, feel free to reply. Also this is post 1,609 nice.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
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SW-7567-8572-3791
I've had few ideas of how to improve on Ganondorf's current kit. But I can't think of anything good for Volcano Kick. Other than having a ton of invincibility frames in return for less damage/knockback. And that's kind of iffy. Nothing sounds interesting to replace it with either, not without using a completely different weapon(one he doesn't ever use in OOT, WW, or TP). Which is also silly to do, as he has a perfectly fine sword for his playstyle(which also is still his own sword either way, despite being a Tech Demo. It's also pretty similar to his HW main weapon anyway).

Otherwise, his Forward Air could make for a very strong reflector, where it goes so fast it either can't be reflected or is too damn fast that most can't.

His Neutral A, Thunder Punch, definitely should be able to easily reflect them on a hit. Another thought is changing his Up B to be a teleport, but something with an aftereffect showing a dark cloud. Maybe it can absorb projectiles too, and his next use of Thunder Punch immediately uses said projectile. This kind of gives him a more unique niche in dealing with projectile users without being just a Volley Move alone(which would be difficult to do with just his Thunder Punch, respectively). I could see one of his taunts having a passive deflector effect as well, where it doesn't allow it to do any more damage, like Mewtwo's Confusion in Melee. A mediocre move in concept, but it's really neat for a passive one. If an opponent has limited projectiles, this actually would make for a really useful counterability.
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
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Messages
8,410
Anybody up for another Sega discussion? Because this tweet has been living rent-free in my head ever since I saw it:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Any of these guys look like they'd be fun in Smash? Personally, I'm leaning towards Clockwork Knight (I like how doofy he looks), but I know nothing about any of these guys, so I may not be the best judge.
 

SPEN18

Smash Champion
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Messages
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MI, USA
Rumors aside I strongly think we will see a Direct soon so it's not like a "game over" if it's not this week. However, I do think there is a great chance we get it this week, yeah.

Maybe this is just time zone weirdness but couldn't the announcement also be in 2-3 days and not necessarily tomorrow?
 

HyperSomari64

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Messages
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Lima, Peru
Anybody up for another Sega discussion? Because this tweet has been living rent-free in my head ever since I saw it:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Any of these guys look like they'd be fun in Smash? Personally, I'm leaning towards Clockwork Knight (I like how doofy he looks), but I know nothing about any of these guys, so I may not be the best judge.
TFW one of them could at least make an NPC cameo in Project X Zone 3 before the Blue Blur.
 
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CannonStreak

Supersonic Warrior
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18,485
Location
Running from the cops in Stardust Speedway.
Anybody up for another Sega discussion? Because this tweet has been living rent-free in my head ever since I saw it:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Any of these guys look like they'd be fun in Smash? Personally, I'm leaning towards Clockwork Knight (I like how doofy he looks), but I know nothing about any of these guys, so I may not be the best judge.
Oh yeah! I remember seeing those! I wouldn't mind all three being playable in Smash, as I actually liked the Sega Saturn myself.
 

dream1ng

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
2,201
You can't call a series dead if it got a game within that same generation, christ. Especially with Nintendo, who oftentimes only puts out one title per series per gen. Some games bomb and then their future seems inauspicious, but even then you have to wait to make sure.

But ARMS didn't bomb. At least let's get a few years into the next thing, then we can make a non-premature conclusion.

I don't think Nintendo would've even bothered to put Min Min in Smash if they saw ARMS as something to jettison going forward.

Anybody up for another Sega discussion? Because this tweet has been living rent-free in my head ever since I saw it:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Any of these guys look like they'd be fun in Smash? Personally, I'm leaning towards Clockwork Knight (I like how doofy he looks), but I know nothing about any of these guys, so I may not be the best judge.
Pretty sure NiGHTS was Sega's main attempt to create another mascot for the Saturn over these three. That one was made by Sonic Team and all. And by Saturn standards, it actually was successful.

These were just the result of it being the mid 90s. Wacky mascots were to that era as edgy characters and shades of brown were to the mid 00s, and chasing Naughty Dog was to the 10s.

Having said that, they remind me of the earlier days of the Smash, when it was mostly cartoony with a side of Marth. But I would give my vote to:

Tempo


Another Sega mascot that went nowhere. For the 32x though, not the Saturn. But look at him! He's rad.
The dev went on to make Sakura Wars though so they did fine.
 

Hadokeyblade

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
10,841
Anybody up for another Sega discussion? Because this tweet has been living rent-free in my head ever since I saw it:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Any of these guys look like they'd be fun in Smash? Personally, I'm leaning towards Clockwork Knight (I like how doofy he looks), but I know nothing about any of these guys, so I may not be the best judge.
I remember Clockwork knight, never played it myself but it was cute.

On that note...

The virgin Clockwork knight.

THE CHAD SEGATA SANSHIRO
 

CannonStreak

Supersonic Warrior
Premium
Joined
Nov 4, 2013
Messages
18,485
Location
Running from the cops in Stardust Speedway.
You can't call a series dead if it got a game within that same generation, christ. Especially with Nintendo, who oftentimes only puts out one title per series per gen. Some games bomb and then their future seems inauspicious, but even then you have to wait to make sure.

But ARMS didn't bomb. At least let's get a few years into the next thing, then we can make a non-premature conclusion.

I don't think Nintendo would've even bothered to put Min Min in Smash if they saw ARMS as something to jettison going forward.


Pretty sure NiGHTS was Sega's main attempt to create another mascot for the Saturn over these three. That one was made by Sonic Team and all. And by Saturn standards, it actually was successful.

These were just the result of it being the mid 90s. Wacky mascots were to that era as edgy characters and shades of brown were to the mid 00s, and chasing Naughty Dog was to the 10s.

Having said that, they remind me of the earlier days of the Smash, when it was mostly cartoony with a side of Marth. But I would give my vote to:

Tempo


Another Sega mascot that went nowhere. For the 32x though, not the Saturn. But look at him! He's rad.
The dev went on to make Sakura Wars though so they did fine.
Oh, I know who you're talking about! Tempo was so cool! Also, his game's theme music was rad!

You know what time it is...yo homey!

Tempo, check it out you know

He makes it funky, and he's good to go.

He's a sweet thang, catch the groove-

New York, L.A., and San Francisco.


Tempo's in the house tonight.

You know he's gonna move your mind,

The grove it outta sight (the groove is outta sight),

Funky as they wanna be.


Tempo's in the house tonight (Tempo's in the house)

You know he's gonna move your mind,

The groove is outta sight (the groove is outta sight).

Funky as they wanna be.

So awesome, if you ask me.
 

chocolatejr9

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Messages
8,410
You can't call a series dead if it got a game within that same generation, christ. Especially with Nintendo, who oftentimes only puts out one title per series per gen. Some games bomb and then their future seems inauspicious, but even then you have to wait to make sure.

But ARMS didn't bomb. At least let's get a few years into the next thing, then we can make a non-premature conclusion.

I don't think Nintendo would've even bothered to put Min Min in Smash if they saw ARMS as something to jettison going forward.


Pretty sure NiGHTS was Sega's main attempt to create another mascot for the Saturn over these three. That one was made by Sonic Team and all. And by Saturn standards, it actually was successful.

These were just the result of it being the mid 90s. Wacky mascots were to that era as edgy characters and shades of brown were to the mid 00s, and chasing Naughty Dog was to the 10s.

Having said that, they remind me of the earlier days of the Smash, when it was mostly cartoony with a side of Marth. But I would give my vote to:

Tempo


Another Sega mascot that went nowhere. For the 32x though, not the Saturn. But look at him! He's rad.
The dev went on to make Sakura Wars though so they did fine.
NiGHTS was Saturn? I thought that was Dreamcast...

Also yeah, Tempo looks like a fun little dude. If Smash was a rhythm game, he'd be top tier, I bet.
 
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