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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Quillion

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People are biased, but ya can’t just paint everyone with a broad paint brush and say that people only think things they want are likely.

Are there clear examples of bias? Sure, look at SourceGaming’s prediction roster. I think most people could agree that cutting multiple RPG characters and adding five platforming newcomers is a tinge biased. You have your biases about wanting newcomers with more legacy instead of the new hotness. Everyone has biases: it’s about minimizing them.
Sure, I do appreciate those who can separately discuss their wants and expectations, but this thread is dominated by wants being shot down on the grounds of not being likely. Can't we just shoot down wants just for... being bad wants?
 

MrMcNuts

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Sure, I do appreciate those who can separately discuss their wants and expectations, but this thread is dominated by wants being shot down on the grounds of not being likely. Can't we just shoot down wants just for... being bad wants?
Was gonna say I feel sometimes in smash speculation reverse bias exists where people are extra of exaggerate the negativity of a character because they don't wanna see them in rather than having realistic reasons
 

Quillion

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Personally I'd just go all in on the bias and not care what's likely or not based on Sakurai's statements or observable patterns.

Because at this point, following those statements and patterns to the letter forever is going to make Smash as stale as New Super Mario Bros.
 

dream1ng

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Sure, I do appreciate those who can separately discuss their wants and expectations, but this thread is dominated by wants being shot down on the grounds of not being likely. Can't we just shoot down wants just for... being bad wants?
Yeah, just as soon as we can all get on the same page as what's "bad" and what's not. Shouldn't take long.

Was gonna say I feel sometimes in smash speculation reverse bias exists where people are extra of exaggerate the negativity of a character because they don't wanna see them in rather than having realistic reasons
Of course if you're biased for a character you'd possibly see their negatives in a less severe light, or outweighed by their positives even if they're not, making opposing arguments look exaggerated.
 

TCT~Phantom

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Sure, I do appreciate those who can separately discuss their wants and expectations, but this thread is dominated by wants being shot down on the grounds of not being likely. Can't we just shoot down wants just for... being bad wants?
You can’t shoot down want for being wants you don’t like unless it’s literally something impossible like non video game characters because want is subjective.

I don’t get to shut down discussion on hypothetically Crash (keep in mind Crash is my most wanted realistic character) just because I don’t want him. You don’t get to shut down discussion about whoever. You can come up with a rational argument about why a character is less likely than one might think, but you do not have the right to tell anyone what they can and can’t like.

People often do feel attacked if someone says their character is not a lock or unlikely, but having realistic expectations is important. Going in with your head held high that Waluigi, Crash, Ryu Hayabusa, or Rayman or whoever is a lock is just going to set you up for disappointment. Someone saying X character isn’t likely is not an attack on you or the character. No one wants to end up like Brawl Krystal fans or Ultimate Geno fans, convinced their character is coming and feeling hurt. You can have lofty wants and desires, but keeping your expectations grounded is important. I could want a newcomer roster with Spyro, Heavy, Lycanroc Dusk, and Midna. That doesn’t mean it’s ever gonna happen.

Speculate on whatever dream characters you have, but keep likelyhood and want divorced as much as possible.
 

chocolatejr9

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Well, if we're talking unrealistic picks... the new Bendy game has caused my obsession with the series to resurface. Can I use this as an excuse to talk about the series in Smash, as unlikely as it is?
 

Wonder Smash

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When will guys in this thread start being upfront about what they think should happen rather than speculating and debating what's likely or safe?
There's always some people might think that you're trying to decide what they should want or how Smash should be and call you bias for that.

I've already made it clear that I think every character should have an appearance on a Nintendo console before appearing in Smash and that's why I don't get why Master Chief is being talked about as if he's a top priority over Doom Slayer. This is all despite the fact that Doom actually has a long history on Nintendo consoles and now has the whole series on the Switch.

I prefer the Nintendo connection in a series that's still clearly centered around Nintendo but that gets debated even around here.

In the end, though, my choices are a mix of both; characters that I think should be in and that I want. So it actually does bug me that some of them get ignored so often.
 
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Quillion

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You can’t shoot down want for being wants you don’t like unless it’s literally something impossible like non video game characters because want is subjective.

I don’t get to shut down discussion on hypothetically Crash (keep in mind Crash is my most wanted realistic character) just because I don’t want him. You don’t get to shut down discussion about whoever. You can come up with a rational argument about why a character is less likely than one might think, but you do not have the right to tell anyone what they can and can’t like.
That sounds defeatist tbh.

Maybe "shut down" isn't the right phrase, but a discussion stemming from "I like X because [reasons]" and "I don't like X because [reasons]" doesn't necessarily have to end right then and there because both opposing statements are subjective.
 

dream1ng

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Hey, I like when people disagree with me. An echo chamber ain't a discussion.
And shooting down wants based on perceived unlikelihood isn't an echo chamber either, clearly there are two positions at play there. You seem to be conflating cyclical conversation with an echo chamber.

But no one is going to take someone who responds to an articulate post with some permutation of "I don't want that, it's bad" seriously, even if most people are also against it. An echo chamber may not be a productive form of discussion, but neither is a reply you'd expect from an elementary schooler.

Responding with "bad" isn't going to elevate the conversation, it's going to get people stuck in the weeds, all in their feelings that something they care about was written off as "bad", arguing about subjective things like there's a correct answer to personal opinions.
 

Quillion

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And shooting down wants based on perceived unlikelihood isn't an echo chamber either, clearly there are two positions at play there. You seem to be conflating cyclical conversation with an echo chamber.

But no one is going to take someone who responds to an articulate post with some permutation of "I don't want that, it's bad" seriously, even if most people are also against it. An echo chamber may not be a productive form of discussion, but neither is a reply you'd expect from an elementary schooler.

Responding with "bad" isn't going to elevate the conversation, it's going to get people stuck in the weeds, all in their feelings that something they care about was written off as "bad", arguing about subjective things like there's a correct answer to personal opinions.
Maybe "it's bad" won't be taken seriously.

But something more specific like "stale", "outlandish", or "boring" is still subjective, but can still generate discussion.

Yes, it can still be backed up with statements, patterns, or comparisons, but that shouldn't be an end-all be-all either.
 

Speed Weed

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While we look at things in terms of "next rep from [insert company]", that doesn't seem to be how they actually do it. It's not a case of picking the company then choosing the character, they just evaluate third-parties based on the character or the series itself, with the company almost always being incidental.

To that end, when you discard the ownership, you can see why some companies like SNK or Disney really don't look too favorable in their chances. Picture all the third-parties as one entity, and then ask if, from all gaming series, they'd really choose Metal Slug or Club Penguin when they could choose Halo or Devil May Cry or Crash Bandicoot or Monster Hunter or Dark Souls and the like... because that's, in effect, probably closer to how the devs look at it.

So really, the only other Disney character that stands anything more than the remotest of chances is another Kingdom Hearts character. And that could happen, but it could also very easily not. I feel pretty safe in wagering we won't be seeing Penguin from Club Penguin or Guybrush Threepwood any time soon.
Okay I get what you're saying and I agree but they should totally add Guybrush Threepwood
 

Gengar84

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Sure, I do appreciate those who can separately discuss their wants and expectations, but this thread is dominated by wants being shot down on the grounds of not being likely. Can't we just shoot down wants just for... being bad wants?
I’d prefer that we didn’t shoot down anyone’s wants for any reason. People have different tastes so “bad” is subjective. Plus, it’s fun to theorize what a character could offer even if they might not be likely. Shutting characters down just discourages conversation and everyone would just end up talking about the same five characters over and over again.
 

SPEN18

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Gotta say I also miss having more merit-based discussion. Sometimes the wording is difficult and comes out wrong, which can lead to run-ins or hurt feelings, but we can do it without those intentions and it's not "gatekeeping" or "telling someone what to want." Characters have pros and cons, merits and lacks thereof; anyone is free to advocate for any character for whatever pros and/or merits they perceive, but likewise anyone is free to advocate against said character for any perceived cons or lacks of merit. It just needs to be done respectfully.

Quillion Quillion "Shoot down wants" I in this context I am going to interpret to mean "explain why I don't think that character/idea should happen" rather than "prevent people from explaining why they think it should happen."

Smash speculation has always been a cesspool of desire and likelihood; they bleed into each other inevitably. It's good to separate them as much as possible for the purpose of having rational discussions about likelihood, but it's also important not to let likelihood totally govern what one would like to happen. I don't think you should be so afraid of your biases affecting your expectations, unless you really don't think you're mature enough to handle it if things don't end up going the way you wanted and/or expected...
 

Gengar84

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Gotta say I also miss having more merit-based discussion. Sometimes the wording is difficult and comes out wrong, which can lead to run-ins or hurt feelings, but we can do it without those intentions and it's not "gatekeeping" or "telling someone what to want." Characters have pros and cons, merits and lacks thereof; anyone is free to advocate for any character for whatever pros and/or merits they perceive, but likewise anyone is free to advocate against said character for any perceived cons or lacks of merit. It just needs to be done respectfully.

Quillion Quillion "Shoot down wants" I in this context I am going to interpret to mean "explain why I don't think that character/idea should happen" rather than "prevent people from explaining why they think it should happen."

Smash speculation has always been a cesspool of desire and likelihood; they bleed into each other inevitably. It's good to separate them as much as possible for the purpose of having rational discussions about likelihood, but it's also important not to let likelihood totally govern what one would like to happen. I don't think you should be so afraid of your biases affecting your expectations, unless you really don't think you're mature enough to handle it if things don't end up going the way you wanted and/or expected...
That’s why I usually try to be clear when I talk about my most wanted characters. I understand that most of my favorites aren’t very likely and mention that whenever I talk about them. Most of them are very obviously long shots so people telling me that they are unlikely is a bit unnecessary. As long as people clearly differentiate their wants from their expectations, I see no issue in discussing any character.

People are more than free to talk about anything they want but I personally lose a bit of interest in the discussion if it just keeps circling around the same handful of likely characters without bringing up much new that hasn’t already been talked about several times. There’s nothing wrong with liking or wanting a popular character so I don’t want to discourage discussion on them either, it’s just harder for me to get personally invested. The good news is no one is forcing anyone to talk about topics that don’t interest them. That’s why it’s good to take a bit of a break sometimes rather than try to force the discussion into something else that you personally want or put down anyone for not sharing your opinion.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I've never seen anyone get on anyone's case for wanting something in this thread.

So many users are just really bad at clarifying that they just want something to happen. Saying something vague like "Let's talk about Heavy," is going to prompt perfectly normal responses of "I don't think Heavy has a chance." That's fine. That's natural. That's polite.

Some people prefer to talk about what they want. Some people prefer to talk about what they think will happen. Some people will like both. The thread has space for both.

Gengar84 Gengar84 is really good at clarifying want discussions vs chance discussions. It's something other people should try to follow.

Tl:dr Just clarify dudes.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I would like to start a conversation though. Horror games!

So far the only things horror related we have in Smash is a Fatal Frame assist trophy and some Fatal Frame and Resident Evil spirits.

Which horror franchises do you think could make the jump to playable status? What franchises would you like to see make that jump? What kind of movesets would they have?

And perhaps the biggest question, can they make the franchise appropriate for "good boys and girls of all ages?"
 

Perkilator

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I would like to start a conversation though. Horror games!

So far the only things horror related we have in Smash is a Fatal Frame assist trophy and some Fatal Frame and Resident Evil spirits.

Which horror franchises do you think could make the jump to playable status? What franchises would you like to see make that jump? What kind of movesets would they have?

And perhaps the biggest question, can they make the franchise appropriate for "good boys and girls of all ages?"
Resident Evil is the main one I got my eyes on, namely in the form of Jill Valentine.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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As far as horror, there's likely a way to make Pyramid Head work, though whether the final version would be faithful enough would be a matter of interpretation.

Its light horror, but I always felt that Zeke & Julie from Zombies Ate My Neighbors probably could make for a fun fighter, especially given the range of weapons.
 

Ivander

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I would like to start a conversation though. Horror games!

So far the only things horror related we have in Smash is a Fatal Frame assist trophy and some Fatal Frame and Resident Evil spirits.

Which horror franchises do you think could make the jump to playable status? What franchises would you like to see make that jump? What kind of movesets would they have?

And perhaps the biggest question, can they make the franchise appropriate for "good boys and girls of all ages?"
Admittingly, I'm rather surprised we didn't get a FNAF Mii Costume, especially after we got Sans as a Mii Costume. And Freddy's design is pretty tame.

As for playable character status, I think Resident Evil will be the first one and I think they could make Jill/Leon/Chris/Claire appropriate, especially if they take some cues from Marvel vs Capcom, like exaggerating the bullets shot out, taking advantage of the less realistic weaponry and maybe giving Jill her "Charging-Star"-like move from MvC2.
As for horror franchises that could make an appearance someday besides Resident Evil and Fatal Frame, Silent Hill is a possibility, especially if the newer games and the SH2 Remake are well received. House of the Dead could get a nod. Other than them, I don't know what horror game could be prioritised over Resident Evil or Silent Hill.

Also, does Castlevania count? Sure, it's not exactly part of the horror genre, but it's still Gothic-horror and rather Action-Horror like Splatterhouse or Doom, even if they aren't quite like modern day horror games like RE, Silent Hill or whatnot. And if Castlevania kinda counts, I guess Doom, Dark Souls and Half-Life could kinda count since Dark Souls is also Gothic horror-based and Doom and Half-Life follow horror game-like plots, even if they are FPS.
Edit: Oh, Darkstalkers was based around horror monsters and whatnot, so that could count too if one is fine with it.
 
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Wonder Smash

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I would like to start a conversation though. Horror games!

So far the only things horror related we have in Smash is a Fatal Frame assist trophy and some Fatal Frame and Resident Evil spirits.

Which horror franchises do you think could make the jump to playable status? What franchises would you like to see make that jump? What kind of movesets would they have?

And perhaps the biggest question, can they make the franchise appropriate for "good boys and girls of all ages?"

Not sure.

But for me, Ghosts n Goblins is the closest thing to it.
 
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silenthunder

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I would like to start a conversation though. Horror games!

So far the only things horror related we have in Smash is a Fatal Frame assist trophy and some Fatal Frame and Resident Evil spirits.

Which horror franchises do you think could make the jump to playable status? What franchises would you like to see make that jump? What kind of movesets would they have?

And perhaps the biggest question, can they make the franchise appropriate for "good boys and girls of all ages?"
Is House of the Dead a horror game? I think Minecraft is scary, especially if you play on Hardcore.
 

Swamp Sensei

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I would say House of the Dead counts, but I have no idea whether Castlevania counts.
 

GolisoPower

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Would anybody from Amnesia work? IIRC, that's a horror game that was huge in the early days of YouTube and two of the games are on the Switch right now.
 

TCT~Phantom

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I would like to start a conversation though. Horror games!

So far the only things horror related we have in Smash is a Fatal Frame assist trophy and some Fatal Frame and Resident Evil spirits.

Which horror franchises do you think could make the jump to playable status? What franchises would you like to see make that jump? What kind of movesets would they have?

And perhaps the biggest question, can they make the franchise appropriate for "good boys and girls of all ages?"
Resident Evil stands head and shoulders above the rest for smash imo. It’s easy to translate as seen by the Vs. Series, it’s massive to this day, and it has such a huge legacy. Putting Leon or Chris or Jill into smash is not hard so long as Capcom is game.

While it probably is not happening in a playable form, I’d love Omori to get a nod. Even if it is just songs from the OST or spirits, I’d love to introduce more people to that gem of a game. Seriously if you love Earthbound or Undertale please play Omori. It is phenomenal.
 

Megadoomer

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I would like to start a conversation though. Horror games!

So far the only things horror related we have in Smash is a Fatal Frame assist trophy and some Fatal Frame and Resident Evil spirits.

Which horror franchises do you think could make the jump to playable status? What franchises would you like to see make that jump? What kind of movesets would they have?

And perhaps the biggest question, can they make the franchise appropriate for "good boys and girls of all ages?"


It's a Nintendo game, and I don't think it would need to be toned down too much to make it into Smash. (any stage seems like it would be unsettling and creepy rather than outright gory, with sanity effects that are designed to mess with the player as opposed to being gruesome) You could have Alexandra Roivas (the main protagonist) or Pious Augustus (the main villain) as playable characters - I'm not sure how likely it is that this guy would make it into the roster alongside Mario or Kirby:



...but if he is a bit much, Alexandra would be a safer option. (I already wrote a moveset for her, and Pious would be similar since they use the same magick system, as the game calls it)
 
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dream1ng

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Yeah, it's Resident Evil by miles, and I supposed Pyramid Head in a distant but noteworthy second. I also contest the claims that RE wouldn't work... sure the character would presumably use firearms, but it doesn't have to be anything more graphic than what Joker does.

If I had to choose I would guess Jill, but it could be any of the three. I thought we'd get Heihachi if we got Tekken, so what do I know.

And if I had to make a more unconventional pick, and this might be a hot take, but, if he counts, I'd go with Big Daddy. Nowhere near RE chance-wise, but... there aren't too many plausible horror characters.
 

Ivander

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I would say House of the Dead counts, but I have no idea whether Castlevania counts.
I say Castlevania is more dark fantasy.
I mean, Castlevania does have horror elements and tropes. I'd say it's more Action Horror somewhat like Doom and Splatterhouse(both of which start very much like a standard horror film) compared to the horror genre established by games like Sweet Home, Clocktower, Resident Evil, Silent Hill and the Amnesia series. Kinda like how you have the first Alien movie, which was very much horror and then Aliens, which still had horror, but was also very action oriented.
 

Swamp Sensei

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It's a Nintendo game, and I don't think it would need to be toned down too much to make it into Smash. (any stage seems like it would be unsettling and creepy rather than outright gory, with sanity effects that are designed to mess with the player as opposed to being gruesome) You could have Alexandra Roivas (the main protagonist) or Pious Augustus (the main villain) as playable characters - I'm not sure how likely it is that this guy would make it into the roster alongside Mario or Kirby:



...but if he is a bit much, Alexandra would be a safer option. (I already wrote a moveset for her, and Pious would be similar since they use the same magick system, as the game calls it)
I completely forgot Eternal Darkness existed.

I guess we have three horror franchises in Ultimate.

Fatal Frame
Eternal Darkness
Resident Evil
 
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