Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Sucumbio]

For me Daisy was a wasted spot and should have been unique or they could have stuck with her being
an alt costume

 

[Diddy Kong]

For me Daisy was a wasted spot and should have been unique or they could have stuck with her being
an alt costume

There's really nothing to work with for Daisy, unless you go spinoff fully, which are things Smash tends to ignore anyway. Daisy got what Daisy was worth.

 

[fogbadge]

Daisy got what Daisy was worth.

if that was true she would have disappeared from reality

 

[JOJONumber691]

There's really nothing to work with for Daisy, unless you go spinoff fully, which are things Smash tends to ignore anyway. Daisy got what Daisy was worth.

Well, Smash is no stranger to making things up when necessary, and I feel like Daisy could've been a unique Echo Fighter just by being a version of Peach for beginners. Considering Peach is one of the most complicated, but also one of the most popular, characters in the game, Daisy could've functioned as a version of her meant for beginners. I think that would've been more than enough to make her unique and warrant her inclusion.

 

[Perkilator]

For me Daisy was a wasted spot and should have been unique or they could have stuck with her being
an alt costume

At the very least, Flower Bomber should've been her side special, along with other changes.

 

[Lenidem]

Daisy got what Daisy was worth.

Maybe. But poor Toad didn't. Especially the blue one.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, Smash is no stranger to making things up when necessary, and I feel like Daisy could've been a unique Echo Fighter just by being a version of Peach for beginners. Considering Peach is one of the most complicated, but also one of the most popular, characters in the game, Daisy could've functioned as a version of her meant for beginners. I think that would've been more than enough to make her unique and warrant her inclusion.

Now you say that, yes I could agree with this. I basically said the same in my earlier post. Daisy could be like Peach but no floating? Would certainly take some technical stuff from Peach. Maybe make her stronger on the ground as trade-off.

There are some other characters I had in mind that could offer this same sort of polar opposite to their base character, in terms of making their Echo significantly easier to play (like Lucina and Chrom).

Peppy Hare as a Fox Echo, but he's way slower and hits a little harder, Blaster stuns like Falco's and he has a good recovery but it way less combo based.

And then Slippy Toad as a Falco Echo. He'd be more of a joke character I'd think, but it could work as frogs also are known to jump high

Raichu as a Pikachu "Echo" but heavier and stronger, somewhat slower too, also bigger and has better range therefore. Thunder Jolt becomes a charge up projectile, he has a sex kick Neutral Air and Quick Attack only has 2 jumps.

Dixie Kong as a "Echo" that's similar to Raichu, carries stat differences. Dixie is floatier and has a safer recovery than Diddy, some moves are similar in frame data but use different animations , as Dixie swirls her hair for attacks where Diddy attacks with his fists and feet, for example Forward Tilt has Dixie use her hair and dash attack isn't a cart wheel but a hair spin. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of Dixie being less unique, but I take her like this over her not being in.

Then Funky as a DK Echo , also with a safer recovery through the Surfboard, but Funky is a little lighter and not as strong as DK. Otherwise they're identical.

Galactia Knight as Meta Knight Echo, he has more range but less speed. Maybe even a tipper hitbox on the end of his lance weapon.

Impa as a Sheik Echo, again not a huge fan but it works. Impa would use her kodachi, a small short sword for a couple of attacks as Forward Air, dash attack, Up Smash, Forward Smash and forward tilt. This gives the moveset of Sheik more safety to start combos. Impa is somewhat slower than Sheik however, but stronger on individual hits and can finish off more reliably than Sheik.

 

[SPEN18]

But if they're smart about it, Echo Fighters could bring way more characters to the roster that otherwise wouldn't make it, and if they follow the example of Ken and Chrom, the uniqueness of these characters is worth it.

Sure not every Echo warrants this, Daisy is perfect the way she is for example, and Simon and Richter have a composite moveset (which is smart), but I don't expect their return anyways.

Chrom and Lucina especially are very great Echo Fighters, because they are without the tipper mechanic of their base characters, Chrom was a unique Recovery, and they're both hugely popular. That's enough reason to keep them I feel. And this opens up way to play a character for people who think they're too technical.

If they could take Echo Fighters a step further and make them more like Ken, Chrom, Isabelle or the Melee clones, that would be an amazing way to cover the losses of the inevitable cuts next game, and am down for it.

Well, yeah, part of their point in adding the Echo fighters (and clones in general) is bringing in characters that otherwise wouldn't make it. The reality is that there are just not that many good candidates, at least not as many as some people would purport. And by "good candidates" I mean characters where both (1) the character can be well-represented as an Echo and (2) that character actually has enough merit to justify the effort.

To reiterate, you see me support clonings in the cases where I think they're warranted; I just only see a limited number of those cases.

--

I also actually disagree with those saying that the removal of the tipper made for a succesful Echoing. Marth's tipper is one of the most subtly amazing aspects of that moveset's ability to represent FE in Smash, as FE is all about positioning your units at just the right distance from the enemy forces in order to tilt the advantage in your favor. Lucina as an easier-to-play version of the moveset takes too much attention away from the original concept of Marth in Smash.

And as I said before, Lucina and Chrom have merits but those have to be balanced against the bigger-picture roster construction, like whether we should be adding three one-offs who are all from the same game in a roster with the scope of Smash's.

--

Decloning Echoes I already addressed; I think whether it is worth it depends heavily on the character. At every step of the decloning process you have to ask yourself why you're doing all that you're doing for a character whose whole premise was being low-effort.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, yeah, part of their point in adding the Echo fighters (and clones in general) is bringing in characters that otherwise wouldn't make it. The reality is that there are just not that many good candidates, at least not as many as some people would purport. And by "good candidates" I mean characters where both (1) the character can be well-represented as an Echo and (2) that character actually has enough merit to justify the effort.

To reiterate, you see me support clonings in the cases where I think they're warranted; I just only see a limited number of those cases.

--

I also actually disagree with those saying that the removal of the tipper made for a succesful Echoing. Marth's tipper is one of the most subtly amazing aspects of that moveset's ability to represent FE in Smash, as FE is all about positioning your units at just the right distance from the enemy forces in order to tilt the advantage in your favor. Lucina as an easier-to-play version of the moveset takes too much attention away from the original concept of Marth in Smash.

And as I said before, Lucina and Chrom have merits but those have to be balanced against the bigger-picture roster construction, like whether we should be adding three one-offs who are all from the same game in a roster with the scope of Smash's.

--

Decloning Echoes I already addressed; I think whether it is worth it depends heavily on the character. At every step of the decloning process you have to ask yourself why you're doing all that you're doing for a character whose whole premise was being low-effort.

We could declone them, sure. I'd personally make Chrom and Lucina fall under one character, have them Echo each other as they already have the same class in Awakening anyway. Rebrand them to be the Marth semi clone, if there's room for Roy to be a clone of them, add him back in too (even if he has just one unique move, the Flare Blade).

I actually agree with the part about Marth and the tipper and how it represents Fire Emblem. But purely Smash gameplay related, Lucina is a wonderful Echo, because the removal of the tipper makes for a drastic different fighting style. Speaking of representative of her overall character? It's bad.

However my idea about Fire Emblem differs quite from the rest. I'd rather cut out Robin, Corrin and Roy over the Echoes, cause of popularity and being efficient and how much more effort especially the avatars of the DS games would take. Am still saying bring in all the House Leaders and build them up from the parts of Byleth where they use their weapon. And of course rework Byleth too.

At the very least Dimitri and Edelgard are very good picks for this, as their weapon is more often used, and their "rivalry" is the most important part of the plot in Three Houses. Then again, it feels bad to ditch Claude, and a full archer moveset could be worth it (he should leave the wyvern and use it only for recovery purposes).

 

[Sucumbio]

... I think whether it is worth it depends heavily on the character. At every step of the decloning process you have to ask yourself why you're doing all that you're doing for a character whose whole premise was being low-effort.

I agree that the "effort" should require an initial decision to either introduce (Lucina, Ken), "upgrade" (Roy), "promote" (Dark Samus, Peach) etc which definitely takes into account the resources in hand and what will need development.

I don't think the low effort moniker is worthy anymore if what info earlier presented holds (70 percent effort for wolf and I'm guessing that ballpark for Smash 4 Roy etc al +/- 10%)... I'll buy it for Melee Roy and Melee Ganondorf iirc it was admitted a bunch they're just roster fillers squeezed in because they could.

For the record, I don't like clones in Ultimate. I think it's an un-smash-like thing since Roy was properly fleshed out (so I don't even consider him a clone anymore really). The others have combat difference and it makes for an argument to either let them be, upgrade them or go bananas (delete or reinvent.) But purely cosmetic clones annoy me. Ken and Ryu are different in SF and in Smash and to the same degree pretty much so that's great. Simon and Richter, Peach and Daisy, Samus and Dark Samus,... If the three "clones" can't get the Roy treatment I has a sad. If there's a reason why there shouldn't be much difference beyond what's done already then I get it (like maybe since Peach is the only true PC with moves that isn't solely drawing from an offshoot to the core Mario games.) Maybe Dark Pit and Pit are "different enough." I dunno.

 

[Laniv]

Sure not every Echo warrants this, Daisy is perfect the way she is for example, and Simon and Richter have a composite moveset (which is smart), but I don't expect their return anyways.

Ehhhh... I feel like she could a had a lot more. Just give her Flower Bomber from 4, trade in the float for an extra jump, and make her a bit stronger and faster than Peach, because she's the athletic princess. Actually, customs could've been a great way to make some easy echoes.

WRT Daisy being "perfect the way she is", there's also that Peach's moveset doesn't really fit her that well anymore, but that's a post for another time.

 

[fogbadge]

well as we're on the subject of echoes why doesn't everyone list the echoes you'd like to see as we've done with out at promotions and fe revamps

gooigi (luigi)
octoling (inkling)
digby (isabelle)
toadette (if toad gets in)
alph (olimar)
ninjara (min min)
roll (mega man)
roxas (sora)
Wool yoshi (yoshi)

 

[Laniv]

well as we're on the subject of echoes why doesn't everyone list the echoes you'd like to see as we've done with out at promotions and fe revamps

gooigi (luigi)
octoling (inkling)
digby (isabelle)
toadette (if toad gets in)
alph (olimar)
ninjara (min min)
roll (mega man)
roxas (sora)
Wool yoshi (yoshi)

Alph not being an echo was ultimate's biggest failing

Also Echo Roll over Proto Man or Bass? That's new.

Anyway:

Lakitu (Bowser Jr.)
Lord Fredrik (King K. Rool)
Panther (Wolf)
Paula (Ness)
Alph (Olimar)
Medusa (Palutena)

 

[fogbadge]

Alph not being an echo was ultimate's biggest failing

Also Echo Roll over Proto Man or Bass? That's new.

Anyway:

Lakitu (Bowser Jr.)
Lord Fredrik (King K. Rool)
Panther (Wolf)
Paula (Ness)
Alph (Olimar)
Medusa (Palutena)

well roll had a small support thread and we floated around the idea of her being a clone cause she was on in the first mvc

 

[AlRex]

Shadow as a combo Echo of Sonic and Mewtwo, sure.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Shadow as a combo Echo of Sonic and Mewtwo, sure.

On that topic, i want an echo fighter from 2 different characters in one moveset.

inb4 Bowsette.

 

[AlRex]

On that topic, i want an echo fighter from 2 different characters in one moveset.

inb4 Bowsette.

Chrom, sort of?

 

[dream1ng]

I'm still blown away by how easy it was to win over this fanbase with clones by just calling them echoes.

Y'all must be putty in the hands of good salespeople, lol.

 

[Perkilator]

My earlier post had a Celica moveset; basically, my idea for her was a Robin Echo who takes moves from Robin, Marth and Roy all in one character.

 

[Diddy Kong]

My earlier post had a Celica moveset; basically, my idea for her was a Robin Echo who takes moves from Robin, Marth and Roy all in one character.

This was an idea of mine too. Works perfectly, take the Fire spells from Robin too, and maybe even Zelda's Din's Fire, and she's good to go.

 

[Perkilator]

This was an idea of mine too. Works perfectly, take the Fire spells from Robin too, and maybe even Zelda's Din's Fire, and she's good to go.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of this.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm still blown away by how easy it was to win over this fanbase with clones by just calling them echoes.

Y'all must be putty in the hands of good salespeople, lol.

Well this is the fanbase that goes nuts over directs.

 

[Perkilator]

In other news:

 

[HyperSomari64]

If one of the MvC2 original characters joint Smash Brothers, it will NOT include the theme songs of the Marvel characters from CotA, MSH, XvSF, MSHvSF, 1 and 3?.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

I honestly don't care whether or not Ribbon Girl is a Min echo or if she's a unique fighter. All I know is that I want her

 

[Gengar84]

In other news:

Hmmm…I can’t think of who it was but I could have sworn I’ve seen someone bring up Zoroark and Hisuian Zoroark as potential Smash characters a few times around here.

 

[Laniv]

In other news:

Remember the post-Brawl/pre-Smash 4 times, when people thought Zoroark was gonna happen?

God I miss those times.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I'm still blown away by how easy it was to win over this fanbase with clones by just calling them echoes.

Y'all must be putty in the hands of good salespeople, lol.

Unlike some people, I never had this seething hatred for clones. If anything, I embrace them. People tend to have this unrealistic expectation of clones stealing slots, when they take substantially less work. I swear a large part of this vendetta against clones that some people used to have came from that sort of view. In smash 4 for instance, the alternative to having Lucina and Dark pit was not getting your most wanted dream pick in the game: it was not getting Lucina and dark pit. I feel as well that the larger the roster gets and the game gets, the less controversial clones become. The lingering hatred for clones emerged in a post melee environment, when 6/13 newcomers were clones in some way shape or form. Nowadays, when you have such a large, diverse roster, a few last minute clones on top is not the end of the world. It also helps that with Ultimate bringing in so many people, clones don’t have that same stigma they had in the old days.

If a clone is done right, like a Melee Falco or an Ultimate Lucina, Chrom, or Ken, they are awesome additions. I love seeing the subtle differences that make the kit mesh differently.If anything, I wish they would go further with the echo concept in the future. Obviously I want more Chroms and less Daisys if that makes sense, but honestly simple small tweeks, even if it is just sharing a move with a different fighter like with Chrom, goes a long way. I’d love to see a Shadow echo fighter with a Mewtwo Up B for instance.

 

[Arcanir]

Remember the post-Brawl/pre-Smash 4 times, when people thought Zoroark was gonna happen?

God I miss those times.

Poor thing got saddled with the whole 'Lucario is getting replaced' theory. It would've honestly had been a cool Pokemon to get, but the reputation it had made it so that when Gen 6 happened and Lucario returned its support collapsed and it had to rebuild.

 

[dream1ng]

Well this is the fanbase that goes nuts over directs.

Directs are effectively a procession of commercials, but I can understand getting hyped by the prospect of new games getting announced.

Echoes is literally just a rebrand. It wasn't even subtle.

Unlike some people, I never had this seething hatred for clones. If anything, I embrace them. People tend to have this unrealistic expectation of clones stealing slots, when they take substantially less work. I swear a large part of this vendetta against clones that some people used to have came from that sort of view. In smash 4 for instance, the alternative to having Lucina and Dark pit was not getting your most wanted dream pick in the game: it was not getting Lucina and dark pit. I feel as well that the larger the roster gets and the game gets, the less controversial clones become. The lingering hatred for clones emerged in a post melee environment, when 6/13 newcomers were clones in some way shape or form. Nowadays, when you have such a large, diverse roster, a few last minute clones on top is not the end of the world. It also helps that with Ultimate bringing in so many people, clones don’t have that same stigma they had in the old days.

If a clone is done right, like a Melee Falco or an Ultimate Lucina, Chrom, or Ken, they are awesome additions. I love seeing the subtle differences that make the kit mesh differently.If anything, I wish they would go further with the echo concept in the future. Obviously I want more Chroms and less Daisys if that makes sense, but honestly simple small tweeks, even if it is just sharing a move with a different fighter like with Chrom, goes a long way. I’d love to see a Shadow echo fighter with a Mewtwo Up B for instance.

I don't hate clones, I just have a general apathy towards them. I don't resent them being there, it's not like you can trade a clone for an original character, but I don't really care about roster padding.

Though if I was given the choice between like six, seven clones or one original, I'd choose the original.

It doesn't, however, require a hatred for clones to remark on how the fanbase did such a drastic flip on the concept just because it got labelled differently. It's more an indictment of the fanbase and their, I don't know... exploitability? than the clones. Clones are clones, they're part of the genre. I don't think what they're referred to as should make a difference either way.

 

[ZelDan]

I'm fine with clones/semi-clones/echoes/whatever as long as it makes sense for the character to be a clone and it makes sense what extent they are being made a clone.

Ken and Lucina would be good examples of clones while Dark Samus and ganondorf would be bad examples of clones.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I'm fine with clones/semi-clones/echoes/whatever as long as it makes sense for the character to be a clone and it makes sense what extent they are being made a clone.

Ken and Lucina would be good examples of clones while Dark Samus and ganondorf would be bad examples of clones.

I mean 100% Accurate Dark Samus would be Timeout the Character just because of how Prime Bosses function, let alone Ultimate Online. Let’s just say that Dark Samus as an Echo the first go-around is probably a blessing in disguise.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Calling it a branding is misleading. It's an all new type of Modal-Swap Fighter(Sakurai doesn't use the term clone either. He's applied this to characters who can be clones or semi-clones too. Which includes Wolf and Isabelle). Basically, Echo is another kind of Model-Swap Fighter, not a rebranding by any means. Clone is a fanterm, which isn't a bad one either, but it doesn't actually correctly understand the development of the Model-Swap Fighters either.

Echo Fighter are much more strict by requiring the same core bodyshape. Something Isabelle couldn't have, as she's still a Model-Swap Fighter but not an Echo. The only other consistent thing is they always match the original weight of the character.(which, to be frank, is something that could easily change come the next game). Dr. Mario is the only one of the Model-Swap Fighters to share this trait, though(though they are slightly different in the PAL version of Melee, so not entirely. Which does make it kind of funny how he's the closest to an Echo, yet the only one who actually would be just different enough if weight were a legitimate requirement and not just a guess. Luigi also used to have the same weight as Mario but diverged pretty fast. Villager and Isabelle never had the same weight nor were that close either).

 

[dream1ng]

Calling it a branding is misleading. It's an all new type of Modal-Swap Fighter(Sakurai doesn't use the term clone either. He's applied this to characters who can be clones or semi-clones too. Which includes Wolf and Isabelle). Basically, Echo is another kind of Model-Swap Fighter, not a rebranding by any means. Clone is a fanterm, which isn't a bad one either, but it doesn't actually correctly understand the development of the Model-Swap Fighters either.

Echo Fighter are much more strict by requiring the same core bodyshape. Something Isabelle couldn't have, as she's still a Model-Swap Fighter but not an Echo. The only other consistent thing is they always match the original weight of the character.(which, to be frank, is something that could easily change come the next game). Dr. Mario is the only one of the Model-Swap Fighters to share this trait, though(though they are slightly different in the PAL version of Melee, so not entirely. Which does make it kind of funny how he's the closest to an Echo, yet the only one who actually would be just different enough if weight were a legitimate requirement and not just a guess. Luigi also used to have the same weight as Mario but diverged pretty fast. Villager and Isabelle never had the same weight nor were that close either).

It absolutely is branding considering it was retroactively applied to two existing model-swap characters who debuted prior to the distinction manifesting. Ultimate was just when the term was devised and the option to stack them added. Before then, they were just called clones.

I will say that not all clones are echoes, but all echoes are clones. Clones is an umbrella term for characters that use another as the foundation for the moveset. They can deviate therein, and there are different gradation of clones, whether direct or semi. Some echoes are direct clones, some aren't. And then there's Wolf, who is probably the closest to "original" on the spectrum of derivative characters, but isn't actually original.

But echoes absolutely fall under the banner of clone, and that subset was simply given a new label. And that decision succeeded wildly.

 

[Geno Boost]

Because as divisive as he may be, Incineroar is infinitely more popular and notable than anyone from Pro Wrestling.

Pro Wrestling is not a well remembered game.

It would be great retro rep just like but smash ultimate skipped having new retro rep also the fact that pro wrestling rep can be 6 characters in one just like Koopalings which is why I see them as a better wrestler representation compared to

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It absolutely is branding considering it was retroactively applied to two existing model-swap characters who debuted prior to the distinction manifesting. Ultimate was just when the term was devised and the option to stack them added. Before then, they were just called clones.

I will say that not all clones are echoes, but all echoes are clones. Clones is an umbrella term for characters that use another as the foundation for the moveset. They can deviate therein, and there are different gradation of clones, whether direct or semi. Some echoes are direct clones, some aren't. And then there's Wolf, who is probably the closest to "original" on the spectrum of derivative characters, but isn't actually original.

But echoes absolutely fall under the banner of clone, and that subset was simply given a new label. And that decision succeeded wildly.

That's not how it actually works.

Echo Fighters were created as a new type of Model-Swap Fighter to begin with, having their own actual rules. This is proven when we still got a separated Model-Swap Fighter, specifically in the form of Isabelle. Re-branding implies that they're the same thing. They're blatantly not.

Isabelle, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Ness, Wolf, Ganondorf(etc.), they're all regular Model-Swap Fighters for how the game works. Our personal terms are irrelevant to the point behind their development. Though Brawl is kind of unique in that the last minute Model-Swap Fighters were intended to be developed regardless, they wouldn't have made it in if time was an issue. Wolf, Toon Link, and Jigglypuff in that case.

Ultimate changed this by having all the Echo Fighters intended from the very start, including their design and purpose. A huge difference from previous game developments. Every single base game character were going to be in(and only those characters) from the beginning too. One key difference with Brawl is that 7 characters were scrapped(3 veterans and 4 newcomers. ...Which is funny, cause we got that as DLC in 4, heh). This does not happen with Ultimate, with nobody being pushed to DLC. anyway.

So not only are they different types of characters who happen to have their own strict rules that regular Model-Swap Fighters can't have, they also were in a game that didn't have any cut characters to begin with, meaning that "time" was not a factor. While this may seem small, it does show how simple they are to make compared to a normal Model-Swap Fighter, which is why they were created as something all new.

Dark Pit and Lucina are also not the same situation as Dr. Mario. Both were just costumes, but also were not originally veterans or made a playable character due to veteran status either. They were never similar to Dr. Mario in the end. Even ignoring that Dr. Mario did at one point have a different weight, he was already massively different from Mario in 4, whereas Dark Pit and Lucina were extremely similar to their counterparts, to the point of not playing by the same "clone" rules in their designs. Dr. Mario, if you will, was a semi-clone if you want to stick with that term, while the other two were clones. So the retroactive factor is due to their situation, something that's only repeated for the other Echoes. Unlike Isabelle, who keeps her semi status instead and was not designed to be under the same rules as Echo Fighters(or rule, cause I don't have any good reason to believe Weight is a rule, so much as an easy to create development coincidence. Sure, it could be one, but we only have Reggie suggesting it is, not real evidence).

 

[osby]

It would be great retro rep just like but smash ultimate skipped having new retro rep also the fact that pro wrestling rep can be 6 characters in one just like Koopalings which is why I see them as a better wrestler representation compared to

I mean, Incineroar isn't added to represent wrestling as a sport any more than Marth is added to represent fencing.

I know I keep saying this but people who divide characters into arbitrary, quantifiable representation slots are just creating reasons to be mad about.

 

[fogbadge]

Hmmm…I can’t think of who it was but I could have sworn I’ve seen someone bring up Zoroark and Hisuian Zoroark as potential Smash characters a few times around here.

me

 

[Staarih]

Remember the post-Brawl/pre-Smash 4 times, when people thought Zoroark was gonna happen?

God I miss those times.

Had Gen 6 not creeped up at the opportune time, I think we would've had something from Gen 5, Zoroark being the frontrunner.

Funny how Zoroark initially failed being the "new Lucario", but has since claimed more time in the spotlight via Hisuian Zoroark, a clear posterboy for Hisui and will likely remain popular in SV too (assuming it will be transferable and viable competitively).

 

[fogbadge]

Had Gen 6 not creeped up at the opportune time, I think we would've had something from Gen 5, Zoroark being the frontrunner.

Funny how Zoroark initially failed being the "new Lucario", but has since claimed more time in the spotlight via Hisuian Zoroark, a clear posterboy for Hisui and will likely remain popular in SV too (assuming it will be transferable and viable competitively).

we've seen him in the game