Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Stratos]

I hope that they add another Pokémon from the Pokémon franchise.

I at least would like Meowth to come as a newcomer since it has become famous thanks to the Pokémon anime series.

 

[Gengar84]

Difference with these characters outside of them being them and thus huge and iconic is , Mewtwo was already considered for Smash 64 and was easily one of the most requested fighters. Pokemon Trainer had relevancy through the remakes of Gen 1; FireRed and LeafGreen.

Then again, iconic status should allow them to be added at any point.

I always try to keep an open mind when it comes to potential Smash characters and never write anything off. Remember, just because things seemed to have followed a pattern so far doesn’t mean it’s necessarily always going to be that way.

(That or I’m just looking for an excuse not to give up on lol)

 

[Sucumbio]

Gen 8 is done now lol, just like Gen 3 and Gen 5. We're already moving onto Gen 9, and honestly we could be at like Gen 10 by the time the next Smash arrives.

True, I suppose they'll look at Sprigatito, Fuecoco, and Quaxly if we're not already past them and into gen 10 by the time the next Smash is in the works. I just think it's not impossible because like Smash Ultimate had only some spirits from gen 8 whereas gen 7 at least got Incineror...

in fact I want to propose that this narrative that Smash must shill the next Pokemon is not even true. We essentially barely get much beyond gen 1 with literally 1 playable character from each subsequent generation with some being skipped altogether. Their saving grace is the huge volume of pokeballs but Gen 8 didn't even get that!

 

[RileyXY1]

I always try to keep an open mind when it comes to potential Smash characters and never write anything off. Remember, just because things seemed to have followed a pattern so far doesn’t mean it’s necessarily always going to be that way.

Considering that Ultimate broke a lot of patterns and "fan rules" as is:

Third party franchises can't have more than one rep?: Broken by Richter Belmont
Generic enemies can't be fighters?: Broken by Piranha Plant
Western franchises can't get in Smash?: Broken by Banjo and Kazooie
Spirits can't be promoted?: Broken by Min Min
Third party franchises can't have more than one unique rep?: Broken by Sephiroth

 

[Pink Yoshi]

Figured it'd be nice to have a fun lil game.

What Boxing Ring titles would your most wanted characters have?

Here's some of mine:

• Ribbon GIrl: The Air-ess
• Viridi: Goddess of Nature
• Grima: The Fell Dragon
• Ratchet and Clank: Solana's Space Warriors
• Zeena: Looks Can Kill
• Susie: Haltmann Secretary

 

[fogbadge]

Figured it'd be nice to have a fun lil game.

What Boxing Ring titles would your most wanted characters have?

Here's some of mine:

• Ribbon GIrl: The Air-ess
• Viridi: Goddess of Nature
• Grima: The Fell Dragon
• Ratchet and Clank: Solana's Space Warriors
• Zeena: Looks Can Kill
• Susie: Haltmann Secretary

hmm interesting question

Toad: Mushroom Hero
Toadette: Pink Go Getter
Chibi-Robo: Happiness Machine

 

[HyperSomari64]

If by some miracle the non-video game character rule was finally broken in the next Smash, who would be the first character revealed?
(It can't be Goku, Geralt nor SpongeBob cuz popular demand)

 

[Stratos]

Some Nintendo characters do not appear in the Super Smash Bros. series because their games have not been released in Japan. That's what some people assume, but to be honest I don't see it that way, I think they will appear one day too. They are the following:

Mike Jones (StarTropics series)
Tin Star (Tin Star)
John Raimi (Geist)
Mr. Stevenson (Gumshoe)
Queen Azarel (Warlocked)
Chief Zog (Warlocked)
Unicycle (Uniracers) (ignore this because PIXAR sued)

 

[Pink Yoshi]

If by some miracle the non-video game character rule was finally broken in the next Smash, who would be the first character revealed?
(It can't be Goku, Geralt nor SpongeBob cuz popular demand)

shrek

Probably Mickey Mouse. We've got Sora, might as well take the next big leap with Disney.

But I figure y'all know who I'D really want as a 4th party rep by now even though she's DEFINITELY not happening

 

[Laniv]

I don’t know anything about Animal Crossing but do you think they could turn Isabelle into a Bowser Jr. type character in future games and just make all her alts other characters? From what I understand, they don’t really have any moves to speak of so I don’t see why it would be an issue. A lot of the characters have fairly similar builds so the skeletons should work fine too. I think that could be a fun way to get a lot more AC representation in Smash. Villager already basically uses this idea for different human designs so it could be cool to see Isabelle do the same for the animal characters.

Ehhhhhh... Yes, and no.

On the one hand, Isabelle's moveset and skeleton does lend well to the concept on paper. It represents Animal Crossing without being too specific.

However... once you look at Isabelle's moves, and what the other characters do in the series, it kinda falls apart. Like, yeah, Tom Nook can use turnips and a fishing pole, but does he swing pom-poms around? When he could use the leaves? Does it make sense for someone like Kapp'n or Rover to use a broom or the stop sign? And if they use someone like K.K. Slider, then it's barely him at all.

In the end, the Bowser Jr./Hero route for Animal Crossing is sorta like using that route for the ARMS characters, or like making Luigi an alt for Mario: it could work on paper, but only on paper.

I realize this is probably biased as heck considering I'm kinda the Tom Nook guy on here, but still. Besides, if anyone should be an Isabelle alt or echo, it should be Lottie or Digby.

 

[Stratos]

shrek

Probably Mickey Mouse. We've got Sora, might as well take the next big leap with Disney.

But I figure y'all know who I'D really want as a 4th party rep by now even though she's DEFINITELY not happening

Regarding this if they were to put in 4th party characters in Super Smash Bros. series and one of them was Mickey Mouse, I'd say put in Oswald the Lucky Rabbit too. It saddens me that Disney said it was too difficult to use Oswald the Lucky Rabbit in the Kingdom Hearts franchise, when I would say he would be a very good choice out there and would add a lot to the Kingdom Hearts franchise.

 

[Sucumbio]

Wait it's so simple Pokémon vs Fire Emblem. I'd buy that before Smash even.

Figured it'd be nice to have a fun lil game.

What Boxing Ring titles would your most wanted characters have?

Here's some of mine:

• Ribbon GIrl: The Air-ess
• Viridi: Goddess of Nature
• Grima: The Fell Dragon
• Ratchet and Clank: Solana's Space Warriors
• Zeena: Looks Can Kill
• Susie: Haltmann Secretary

I was like wut? Just learned something lol didn't ever notice them before bc I can barely read them hahaha

So...

Rygar: THE Legendary Warrior
Alucard: What!?
Black Knight: Sinister General

(It can't be Goku, Geralt nor SpongeBob cuz popular demand)

Can't? Uh.. then no one

Mike Jones (StarTropics series)

This please!

 

[Laniv]

Figured it'd be nice to have a fun lil game.

What Boxing Ring titles would your most wanted characters have?

Here's some of mine:

• Ribbon GIrl: The Air-ess
• Viridi: Goddess of Nature
• Grima: The Fell Dragon
• Ratchet and Clank: Solana's Space Warriors
• Zeena: Looks Can Kill
• Susie: Haltmann Secretary

Toad: The Original Mushroom Retainer
Pauline: Mayor of New Donk City
King Boo: The Sovereign of Screams
Tom Nook: Smashville's Shopkeeper
Tiki: The Divine Voice
Bandana Dee: Helper to Hero
Dixie Kong: The Pugnacious Ponytail
Savvy Stylist: Top-Class Tailor

 

[Wonder Smash]

Hmm…oh, I know!

What Classic Mode routes would you liked to have seen a bit different? Here’s mine in a Google Doc; but just in case TL;DR

Spoiler: WARNING: Wall of text

• Daisy: All Mario characters
• Falco: Fighters with multiple jumps
• Ganondorf: All Melee characters
• Mr. Game & Watch: Switch to NES era
• Pit: Charcaters created in 1986
• Dark Pit: "Mirror" characters
• Wario: Free-for-alls
• PT: Different regions
• Sonic: All Brawl characters
• Olimar: Giant opponents
• Lucario: "Gimmicky" characters
• R.O.B.: SSE homage
• Toon Link: 4v4
• Little Mac: Punch-Out homage
• Greninja: Gym Types
• Mii Fighters: Mii classes
• Robin: Different spells
• Shulk: Monado Arts
• Ken: Martial artists
• Cloud: Sm4sh DLC fighters
• Corrin: Characters based on Fates
• King K. Rool: Villains vs. Heroes
• Joker: 7 deadly sinners
• Hero: JRPG characters
• Banjo & Kazooie: N64 characters
• Terry: Characters based on the original Fatal Fury
• Byleth: Characters based on FE's gameplay mechanics
• Min Min: Characters with slowly increasing physical range
• Steve: Different 3rd party characters
• Pyra / Mythra: Xeno series homage
• Sora: All (base game) characters

I just think Terry's final boss should have been Dracula, as I think he would have been a nice homage to Rugal.

 

[Ivander]

Can we talk about literally anything else?



How about Animal Crossing? I feel it deserves a third character. Realistically, how should that character work?

It wouldn't be Groundhog Day in here if we weren't repeating certain topics over and over again. Man, Nintendo has been releasing news about their own stuff so slowly.

Tom Nook should be the 3rd character. That said, I'm not sure how exactly a 3rd Animal Crossing character would play differently from Villager or Isabelle. The only thing that I think of something unique for Tom Nook would be if he would throw Animal Crossing leaves and they burst into furniture or whatnot, like how furniture or other objects appear in a house. But that wouldn't be something of basing an entire moveset around.

 

[Gengar84]

I’ve been rewatching Arcane with my friend who’s never seen it and I’m really enjoying it as much as the first time. I think Jinx or Vi would make awesome characters for Smash but neither get a whole lot of discussion, particularly Vi. I’m not even a League of Legends fan outside the show. The characters always had cool designs but I’m not really into competitive online games and I knew nothing about the lore previously but now I’m excited for the next season. Jinx is probably the more recognizable character for the general gaming audience but VI’s moveset probably translates better to a game like Smash.

 

[Lenidem]

Wait it's so simple Pokémon vs Fire Emblem. I'd buy that before Smash even.

Sometimes it seems that Smash is slowly but surely evolving towards this...

 

[AlRex]

Boxing ring titles, sure

Scorpion (Mortal Kombat): The Furious, Fiery Ninja
Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat): The Icy, Invested Assassin
Carmen Sandiego: The Miss in Misdemeanor
SV-001 (Metal Slug): The Metal Slug Itself
Centipede: The Thirty-Legged Thrasher
Space Invaders: An Aggressive Alien Armada
Marble (Marble Madness): Ball of Fury
Tetromino (Tetris): The Communist Block! The Puzzling Pugilist
Sam & Max: Hello Kitty & McGruff's Unholy Alliance
Hornet (Daytona USA)/F-Type (Stunt Race FX)/Octane (Rocket League): HOW DID A CAR GET IN THE BOXING RING?!?
Mavis Beacon (Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing): The Testy Typing Teacher
Leonardo (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles): He Leads!
Donatello: Does Machines!
Raphael: Cool But Crude!
Michelangelo: A Party Dude!
Bart Simpson (The Simpsons): Underachiever and Proud of It
Tony Hawk (Tony Hawk's Pro Skater): The Birdman
Chuck E. Cheese: A Powerful Rat

I want very odd things, and I definitely went overboard.

 

[Gengar84]

Wait it's so simple Pokémon vs Fire Emblem. I'd buy that before Smash even.



I was like wut? Just learned something lol didn't ever notice them before bc I can barely read them hahaha

So...

Rygar: THE Legendary Warrior
Alucard: What!?
Black Knight: Sinister General



Can't? Uh.. then no one



This please!

I’d buy an entire Smash game of only Pokémon characters. There’s tons of potential in that and I’d likely see a lot of my favorites. Although several of my very top favorites would likely still miss out like Cofagrigus, Orbeetle, and Golisopod.

I’m still waiting for a sequel to TMNT: Smash Up. With the resurgence the TMNT seem to be having lately and the success of Multiversus and other platform fighters like Brawlhala, now seems like a good time to try again. Let’s just ignore Nick All-Stars lol (yes, I know it has TMNT characters).

 

[Arcanir]

Do you guys think those Hisuian Zoroark shorts bump up its chances as a playable character for the next Smash? I was already thinking it was a solid contender beforehand but the Pokémon Company seems to be really pushing it and I think it’s an awesome Pokémon that could represent the concept of regional variants really well. We could even get base Zoroark as an alt.

If they stick to only picking from newer generations then it's missed its chance as Gen 8 is on its way out and by the time we get another Smash Gen 10 may even be a thing. If they do dig for an older Pokemon, that depends on how time treats it. Zoroark has managed to retain its popularity, but it hasn't risen to the heights of those like the Gen 1 Starters, Meowth, Gengar, Gardevoir, or Garchomp. So if they're going to reach back for it, it needs to have something to make it stand out from among the rest and so far I'm not sure it has that.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don’t understand the hatred for Fire Emblem in Smash.

The amount of representation is has is not commensurate with it's popularity.

FE is not a Mario or Pokemon-level franchise.

 

[Gengar84]

The amount of representation is has is not commensurate with it's popularity.

FE is not a Mario or Pokemon-level franchise.

True but half of those characters are echoes or clones. No one is arguing that Dragon Quest has 4 characters. Slightly altering a character like Lucina shouldn’t be any more offensive than an alt outfit. Semiclone like Roy and Chrom only take marginally more effort from what I understand. People make too big of a deal whether the character takes up a different spot on the select screen. An echo is just a marginally more unique alt outfit in most cases.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Figured it'd be nice to have a fun lil game.

What Boxing Ring titles would your most wanted characters have?

Here's some of mine:

• Ribbon GIrl: The Air-ess
• Viridi: Goddess of Nature
• Grima: The Fell Dragon
• Ratchet and Clank: Solana's Space Warriors
• Zeena: Looks Can Kill
• Susie: Haltmann Secretary

Dixie Kong : girl with the twirl
Impa: Princess's guardian
Isaac: A-Grade Adapt
Cranky Kong: Retired maid-napper
Dimitri: Faergus' Fearless
Edelgard: The Reformer
Claude: Mysterious Schemer

 

[fogbadge]

Dixie Kong : girl with the twirl
Impa: Princess's guardian
Isaac: A-Grade Adapt
Cranky Kong: Retired maid-napper
Dimitri: Faergus' Fearless
Edelgard: The Reformer
Claude: Mysterious Schemer

ok surely edlegard would be the flame emperor

 

[Ivander]

Do you guys think those Hisuian Zoroark shorts bump up its chances as a playable character for the next Smash? I was already thinking it was a solid contender beforehand but the Pokémon Company seems to be really pushing it and I think it’s an awesome Pokémon that could represent the concept of regional variants really well. We could even get base Zoroark as an alt.

Who knows to say the least. At the moment, newer Pokemon are chosen since they are what's being marketed at the moment. I don't think it's impossible for older Pokemon to not get in, since they could be getting marketed around when they are being chosen. People thought about the possibility of a Gen 4 Pokemon when Sinnoh was being marketed and the Legends Trainer with Typlosion, Samurott and Decidueye was certainly a popular thought when Legends was being marketed.
And if tradition continues, Pokemon Black and White, the games where Zoroark originated from, are going to be remade when Gen 10 comes around. Maybe Zoroark or another Unova Pokemon will have a chance then. Or we'll get a Pokemon Legends with past Unova and maybe the Trainer from that will get focused on with whatever Starter Pokemon they are given.

 

[Sucumbio]

The amount of representation is has is not commensurate with it's popularity.

FE is not a Mario or Pokemon-level franchise.

bottom t t t t

 

[SPEN18]

True but half of those characters are echoes or clones. No one is arguing that Dragon Quest has 4 characters. Slightly altering a character like Lucina shouldn’t be any more offensive than an alt outfit. Semiclone like Roy and Chrom only take marginally more effort from what I understand. People make too big of a deal whether the character takes up a different spot on the select screen. An echo is just a marginally more unique alt outfit in most cases.

But even still many people would rather see such "bonus" slots go to characters from other franchises. And Echoes are a different story, but semiclones do take up quite a bit of work. Remember Sakurai said Wolf took about 70% of the effort it would have taken to make Krystal for Brawl, which is enough difference to affect their decisions but still well over half. I know that was a long time ago and the number itself was probably just an on-the-spot estimation, but it still puts to rest the idea that clones can be added at almost a whim. 70% of a unique is a ton of effort.

 

[Gengar84]

But even still many people would rather see such "bonus" slots go to characters from other franchises. And Echoes are a different story, but semiclones do take up quite a bit of work. Remember Sakurai said Wolf took about 70% of the effort it would have taken to make Krystal for Brawl, which is enough difference to affect their decisions but still well over half. I know that was a long time ago and the number itself was probably just an on-the-spot estimation, but it still puts to rest the idea that clones can be added at almost a whim. 70% of a unique is a ton of effort.

That’s fair. At the same time though, for Ultimate specifically, Roy was a veteran that was a veteran that was only brought back in Smash 4 due to fan demand and in Ultimate due to “everyone is here” and Chrom is an echo of Roy with Ike’s up special. I could be mistaken but I feel like Roy is still closer to Marth than Wolf is to Fox. In Melee, the two had the same moveset with different attributes.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

Can't we all just hug it out? /jk

Speaking as someone who mains a FE character, I honestly understand the contention. 8 characters IS kinda ridiculous, especially in comparison to heavy-hitters like Zelda and Kirby, series that could definitely use new characters. But the FE characters who are fully unique are incredibly well-crafted, which is why I'd admittedly be a bit sad to see them all go.

I wouldn't mind sacrificing characters like Roy, Lucina or even sigh Corrin if we could represent the wider array of FE's vast character roster, and even better if we get Grima in return as a villain rep. But I know I'm in the minority in that one lol

At the end of the day, as long as Viridi finally gets her chance, I'm good. KI:U is well-loved for its charm and characters and Viridi is one of its best. She has a major role in its story and is even a major player in Palutena's Guidance. I think she's a top 5 first-party candidate for the next game now that heavy-hitters like Ridley and K. Rool have gotten in. She's up there with Waluigi and Bandana Dee IMO

 

[dream1ng]

True but half of those characters are echoes or clones. No one is arguing that Dragon Quest has 4 characters. Slightly altering a character like Lucina shouldn’t be any more offensive than an alt outfit. Semiclone like Roy and Chrom only take marginally more effort from what I understand. People make too big of a deal whether the character takes up a different spot on the select screen. An echo is just a marginally more unique alt outfit in most cases.

That's not the way the game, the devs, or the fans treat characters, though. No one looks at Mario as a series with sixteen characters.

And even though people feel Zelda is underrepresented, it's still not considered to only have three characters.

Plus as far as clones go, FE still has four characters based on one foundation. Even for derivative movesets, that's a lot. Not even Fox or Link can claim that.

 

[HyperSomari64]

My "Boxing Ring" titles idea:
* Turok: The Son of Stone

 

[Gengar84]

That's not the way the game, the devs, or the fans treat characters, though. No one looks at Mario as a series with sixteen characters.

And even though people feel Zelda is underrepresented, it's still not considered to only have three characters.

Plus as far as clones go, FE still has four characters based on one foundation. Even for derivative movesets, that's a lot. Not even Fox or Link can claim that.

I’ll concede that point. That’s exactly why I like the Bowser Jr. class solution so much. We’d only have around 5-6 actual characters in the game, which seems like a fairly reasonable amount for a game of Fire Emblem’s success. However, we’d actually have way more representation than we currently do since each outfit slot of those 5-6 characters would be its own unique unit. Going with classes and weapon types would also eliminate the need for clone or variant Fire Emblem characters so we wouldn’t need to have so much space taken up with similar characters like Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom. Sure, they would lose what makes them unique by making them alts but I’d gladly trade that for a spear unit, an axe unit, and an archer unit, each with tons of characters represented. Robin could mostly remain as is and have their alts used for the mage class while Ike’s moveset could be used as a base for the axe moveset. The best part is that this would all be faithful to how the Fire Emblem series actually plays.

 

[SPEN18]

That’s fair. At the same time though, for Ultimate specifically, Roy was a veteran that was a veteran that was only brought back in Smash 4 due to fan demand and in Ultimate due to “everyone is here” and Chrom is an echo of Roy with Ike’s up special. I could be mistaken but I feel like Roy is still closer to Marth than Wolf is to Fox. In Melee, the two had the same moveset with different attributes.

It's hard to say what the difference is between Fox-->Wolf and Marth-->Roy. Either way, Roy is pretty firmly in semiclone territory now. It's true that they hypothetically could revert Roy back to being more like an Echo of Marth, but that seems very unlikely.

Their responses to complaints about clones have so far been largely (1) making the clone characters less cloney and (2) simply making it more clear to fans that these characters are only in the game because they can be clones. In my opinion both of those attempted solutions have had mixed results.

With (1), whether or not the effort taken for decloning is worth it depends on the character. And with some like Ganondorf, the changes have been in the right direction I think, but not at what many people would call the ideal situation for the character.

With (2), the rebranding is good for transparency, but I think it goes too far in encouraging both devs and fans to include/request clones/Echoes so willy-nilly. It overemphasizes the gameplay value of the minimal-effort clones and deemphasizes the work taken to make them, even if that work is relatively minimal compared to other characters. In addition to that it proliferates support for "Echoing" characters that shouldn't necessarily be in that boat, like Isabelle or Dixie.

 

[DarthEnderX]

**** yeah! Waluigi's Pinball!

 

[Geno Boost]

Some Nintendo characters do not appear in the Super Smash Bros. series because their games have not been released in Japan. That's what some people assume, but to be honest I don't see it that way, I think they will appear one day too. They are the following:

Mike Jones (StarTropics series)
Tin Star (Tin Star)
John Raimi (Geist)
Mr. Stevenson (Gumshoe)
Queen Azarel (Warlocked)
Chief Zog (Warlocked)
Unicycle (Uniracers) (ignore this because PIXAR sued)

There is also Starman and Amazon from pro wrestling NES the funny thing Sakurai wanted a wrestler character in smash and he choose instead

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There is also Starman and Amazon from pro wrestling NES the funny thing Sakurai wanted a wrestler character in smash and he choose instead

Because as divisive as he may be, Incineroar is infinitely more popular and notable than anyone from Pro Wrestling.

Pro Wrestling is not a well remembered game.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

Binged a bit of Smash Ultimate character theme song videos yesterday. Corrin had "Dragonhearted" most of the time. You'd think that'd be a Steve song tho

Which made me curious. What songs do you think fit your most wanted characters?

Ahem...

• Ribbon Girl - Sunflower (Swae Lee and Post Malone)
• Viridi - Rules of Nature (Metal Gear Rising)
• Grima - Kill Everyone (Hollywood Undead)
• Ratchet and Clank - Blow (Ke$ha)
• Gill Grunt - Into the Ocean (Blue October) (I keep forgetting to mention this guy...)
• Susie - Robot Rock (Daft Punk)
• Zeena - Hoes Mad (Famous Dex) Ice Queen (Within Temptation)

 

[Dinoman96]

There is also Starman and Amazon from pro wrestling NES the funny thing Sakurai wanted a wrestler character in smash and he choose instead

Eh? Pro Wrestling did come out in Japan.

edit: though I guess it's never been referenced in Smash before?

 

[JOJONumber691]

Figured it'd be nice to have a fun lil game.

What Boxing Ring titles would your most wanted characters have?

Here's some of mine:

• Ribbon GIrl: The Air-ess
• Viridi: Goddess of Nature
• Grima: The Fell Dragon
• Ratchet and Clank: Solana's Space Warriors
• Zeena: Looks Can Kill
• Susie: Haltmann Secretary

Eh? Why not this could be fun.

• Euden: The Prince of New Alberia
• Sol: The Flame of Corruption
• Ky: A King of Illyria
• Primarina: The Ocean's Best Singer
• Kiran: The Summoner from the World of Iron
• Lyn: The Quick Lorca Swordfighter
• Dark Matter: The Nightmare of Dreamland
• Chell: The Portal Gun Expert
• Tanjiro: Demon Slayer Extraordinaire

 

[Diddy Kong]

It's hard to say what the difference is between Fox-->Wolf and Marth-->Roy. Either way, Roy is pretty firmly in semiclone territory now. It's true that they hypothetically could revert Roy back to being more like an Echo of Marth, but that seems very unlikely.

Their responses to complaints about clones have so far been largely (1) making the clone characters less cloney and (2) simply making it more clear to fans that these characters are only in the game because they can be clones. In my opinion both of those attempted solutions have had mixed results.

With (1), whether or not the effort taken for decloning is worth it depends on the character. And with some like Ganondorf, the changes have been in the right direction I think, but not at what many people would call the ideal situation for the character.

With (2), the rebranding is good for transparency, but I think it goes too far in encouraging both devs and fans to include/request clones/Echoes so willy-nilly. It overemphasizes the gameplay value of the minimal-effort clones and deemphasizes the work taken to make them, even if that work is relatively minimal compared to other characters. In addition to that it proliferates support for "Echoing" characters that shouldn't necessarily be in that boat, like Isabelle or Dixie.

But if they're smart about it, Echo Fighters could bring way more characters to the roster that otherwise wouldn't make it, and if they follow the example of Ken and Chrom, the uniqueness of these characters is worth it.

Sure not every Echo warrants this, Daisy is perfect the way she is for example, and Simon and Richter have a composite moveset (which is smart), but I don't expect their return anyways.

Chrom and Lucina especially are very great Echo Fighters, because they are without the tipper mechanic of their base characters, Chrom was a unique Recovery, and they're both hugely popular. That's enough reason to keep them I feel. And this opens up way to play a character for people who think they're too technical.

If they could take Echo Fighters a step further and make them more like Ken, Chrom, Isabelle or the Melee clones, that would be an amazing way to cover the losses of the inevitable cuts next game, and am down for it.