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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Ivander

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i am wondering if we are forever stuck with new gen pokemon and new fire emblem characters as being the only option for newcomers in their series during future smash games
Maybe. I wouldn't say for certain. After all, Chrom was wanted and added despite Fire Emblem Fates and Echoes being out already. And both series do remakes and should a remake be well timed, maybe we could get a character from them. Lyndis is a very popular character in the Fire Emblem fandom and her game has yet to get a remake. A remake could be the thing she needs to get her chance.

Pokemon also has the case of relevancy. It focuses on the Pokemon being focused on, hence most of the new Gen picks. But considering we just had a huge Sinnoh/Gen 4 focus with the Gen 4 remakes and Pokemon Legends Arceus, it wouldn't surprise me that if Pokemon ever had a focus on a previous Generation that they could prioritise a Pokemon from that Gen over a new Gen Pokemon.

Although that's really just speculation right now. We have to wait for a new Smash Bros. before we can really talk about them putting in a character that isn't from a new game.
 

Gengar84

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i am wondering if we are forever stuck with new gen pokemon and new fire emblem characters as being the only option for newcomers in their series during future smash games
I hope we can still get older Pokémon on occasion at least. There are plenty of Pokémon from older generations, such as my namesake, that I’d still love to see make it into Smash one day. I’d still be hyped to see the Black Knight, Lyn, or several other Fire Emblem characters from older games I’ve played make it in as well.

I wouldn’t say it’s out of the question. After all, we did get Pokémon Trainer in Brawl, which is made up of entirely first generation Pokémon alongside Lucario, which was from the most recent generation at the time.
 
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Stratos

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Does anyone think that Masahiro Sakurai should have placed Marth in the first Super Smash Bros. among the 12 characters? Then one of the first 12 should have been Marth.
 

Megadoomer

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Does anyone think that Masahiro Sakurai should have placed Marth in the first Super Smash Bros. among the 12 characters? Then one of the first 12 should have been Marth.
I don't think so - I feel like the original 8 are all really obvious picks (at least at the time that the game was made - Yoshi had some pretty major spin-offs with Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story), Luigi and Jigglypuff were included due to their similarities to other characters (which Marth, presumably, wouldn't have unless he was a modified version of Link with different specials), and I don't think that Captain Falcon or Ness should have been cut in favour of Marth.
 
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osby

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Does anyone think that Masahiro Sakurai should have placed Marth in the first Super Smash Bros. among the 12 characters? Then one of the first 12 should have been Marth.
I don't really see how that would change anything, tbh. Maybe Fire Emblem would have got another fighter by now, but it's not like being one of the original 12 is anything special.
 

Gengar84

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In hindsight, Fire Emblem ended up being a lot bigger than Earthbound, F-Zero, and StarFox so if we were doing another original 12 today with what we know now, I’d probably cut Ness for Marth personally but it was hard to know how things would pan out at that time.
 

Stratos

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in my opnion it should have been Sukapon due to joy mech fight being the actual nintendo fighting game
I don't think so - I feel like the original 8 are all really obvious picks (at least at the time that the game was made - Yoshi had some pretty major spin-offs with Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story), Luigi and Jigglypuff were included due to their similarities to other characters (which Marth, presumably, wouldn't have unless he was a modified version of Link with different specials), and I don't think that Captain Falcon or Ness should have been cut in favour of Marth.
I don't really see how that would change anything, tbh. Maybe Fire Emblem would have got another fighter by now, but it's not like being one of the original 12 is anything special.
I honestly have no problem with any of the first twelve, it was just an opinion.
 

Gengar84

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I wonder if Marth being in the original 12 would have changed the general reception of Fire Emblem in Smash at all. I doubt it would have made too big a difference but I imagine at least a few people would be more accepting if he had always been part of the series. That and translating the Fire Emblem games sooner than they did would have probably helped as well.
 
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Opossum

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i am wondering if we are forever stuck with new gen pokemon and new fire emblem characters as being the only option for newcomers in their series during future smash games
For Pokémon, probably. TPCi has massive sway over what Pokémon get in the game, and I don't expect that to change.

Fire Emblem is a bit more fluid. After all, we still got Chrom in Ultimate due to fan demand. IS in general just seems a lot more open to the idea of new, more legacy picks, especially since certain older lords like Lyn and Hector still bring in the big bucks for Heroes.
 

Gengar84

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For Pokémon, probably. TPCi has massive sway over what Pokémon get in the game, and I don't expect that to change.

Fire Emblem is a bit more fluid. After all, we still got Chrom in Ultimate due to fan demand. IS in general just seems a lot more open to the idea of new, more legacy picks, especially since certain older lords like Lyn and Hector still bring in the big bucks for Heroes.
There actually is precedent for getting older generation Pokémon in Smash though with Pokémon Trainer from Brawl. I don’t see why something like that couldn’t happen again. The Pokémon Company promotes older generation Pokémon all the time, particularly those from the first generation.
 
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Opossum

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There actually is precedent for getting older generation Pokémon in Smash though with Pokémon Trainer from Brawl. I don’t see why something like that couldn’t happen again. The Pokémon Company promotes older generation Pokémon all the time, particularly those from the first generation.
At the same time, not only did Pokémon Trainer come alongside Charizard, one of the single most popular Pokémon of all time, but it's also worth noting that Fire Red and Leaf Green came out like right before Brawl began development.
 

Gengar84

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At the same time, not only did Pokémon Trainer come alongside Charizard, one of the single most popular Pokémon of all time, but it's also worth noting that Fire Red and Leaf Green came out like right before Brawl began development.
That’s true but that does mean that remakes and similar games can still give older Pokémon a second chance at getting into Smash if they missed their shot the first time around. I think the same likely holds true if an older Pokémon starts getting pushed in the anime or movie for any reason, especially if that Pokémon was already very popular beforehand.
 
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SPEN18

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I mean, Ogma got an alternate in Fire Emblem Heroes before some other Archanea characters...although Navarre got one before Ogma.
Totally forgot about that. Though Ogma is still marketed way less than the likes of Marth, Caeda, Tiki, Minerva, the peg trio, etc.

That said, many of the Myrmidon characters are quite popular in general. It's not just the guys. Many of the female Myrmidons are also popular as well. It's not too surprising since Myrmidons/Swordmasters practically are the "fast high critical rate anime swordsman" deal in Fire Emblem, although most of them tend to have pretty favourable personalities and characters.
Didn't mean to imply it was just the boys. I listed Guy, Joshua, etc. because they had stickers in Brawl. Characters like Mia and Marisa are popular, too.
Thankfully characters of just about any class have shown potential to become popular in FE, though there is naturally a little skew towards certain ones.

I use units strictly based on how much I like them as characters, whether that’s their design or personality. Their stats don’t really factor into it much. I’ll try to make weaker units work wherever I can if I like them enough as characters and I won’t use strong units much if I didn’t really care much about them as characters. I never play on harder difficulties so can typically get away with just using characters I like the most.
Nothing wrong with using "bad" characters ("bad" in terms of, like, the performance and/or tier lists) in FE, or in Smash for that matter. FE games in particular, unlike Smash games, are purposefully designed so that some characters are better in combat than others, but also so that the game is beatable with almost anyone. It's part of the point: FE wants you to care about everyone, nobles and commoners, good combatants and bad combatants, etc.; in large-scale conflicts/wars, everyone has a unique story to tell and a role to play whether or not they are a good fighter, and conveying that idea has always been a part of the series.

I am open to playing all of the difficulty levels; how many I end up actually playing just depends on how replayable that particular installment is for me. For ex., I beat H5 on Shadow Dragon but some of the other games I only played through once, and a first playthrough is usually more casual for me. But "bad" characters can still be used even on harder difficulties in a lot of the games; you can beat basically everything with suboptimal teams (and doing so might even make a good challenge).

I’m not sure I ever put much thought into what class my favorites fall into.
The only real bias I think I have is towards a lot of the early-game axe fighters like Barst, Boyd, etc. Other than that, no, I don't really put much thought into the classes of my faves.

i am wondering if we are forever stuck with new gen pokemon and new fire emblem characters as being the only option for newcomers in their series during future smash games
"Anything can change!" - according to Chrom, no.

More seriously, though, it might take some effort from the fans and/or some certain circumstances to break the right way, but none of the "legacy" FE/PKMN characters are ineligible or anything, so maybe someday they could happen, especially if people keep supporting them.

Personally, I don't want to bank on hypothetical remakes when (1) they aren't guaranteed to happen and (2) remakes have a bad track record of helping characters become playable, but they could help, yeah, and definitely not hurt. I'd just advocate for focusing more on building support for the character themselves, and supporting them for their already established legacy.
 

Gengar84

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Totally forgot about that. Though Ogma is still marketed way less than the likes of Marth, Caeda, Tiki, Minerva, the peg trio, etc.



Didn't mean to imply it was just the boys. I listed Guy, Joshua, etc. because they had stickers in Brawl. Characters like Mia and Marisa are popular, too.
Thankfully characters of just about any class have shown potential to become popular in FE, though there is naturally a little skew towards certain ones.



Nothing wrong with using "bad" characters ("bad" in terms of, like, the performance and/or tier lists) in FE, or in Smash for that matter. FE games in particular, unlike Smash games, are purposefully designed so that some characters are better in combat than others, but also so that the game is beatable with almost anyone. It's part of the point: FE wants you to care about everyone, nobles and commoners, good combatants and bad combatants, etc.; in large-scale conflicts/wars, everyone has a unique story to tell and a role to play whether or not they are a good fighter, and conveying that idea has always been a part of the series.

I am open to playing all of the difficulty levels; how many I end up actually playing just depends on how replayable that particular installment is for me. For ex., I beat H5 on Shadow Dragon but some of the other games I only played through once, and a first playthrough is usually more casual for me. But "bad" characters can still be used even on harder difficulties in a lot of the games; you can beat basically everything with suboptimal teams (and doing so might even make a good challenge).



The only real bias I think I have is towards a lot of the early-game axe fighters like Barst, Boyd, etc. Other than that, no, I don't really put much thought into the classes of my faves.



"Anything can change!" - according to Chrom, no.

More seriously, though, it might take some effort from the fans and/or some certain circumstances to break the right way, but none of the "legacy" FE/PKMN characters are ineligible or anything, so maybe someday they could happen, especially if people keep supporting them.

Personally, I don't want to bank on hypothetical remakes when (1) they aren't guaranteed to happen and (2) remakes have a bad track record of helping characters become playable, but they could help, yeah, and definitely not hurt. I'd just advocate for focusing more on building support for the character themselves, and supporting them for their already established legacy.
Alright, I guess that means I’m just going to have to step up my :094: support then lol. It’s popular enough that it’s not completely out of the question that it could make it in with enough support.
 
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SPEN18

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Does anyone think that Masahiro Sakurai should have placed Marth in the first Super Smash Bros. among the 12 characters? Then one of the first 12 should have been Marth.
Well per Source Gaming he was considered and maybe would have made it in a slightly bigger roster. A lot of people would have rather seen characters like Bowser or Dedede make it over Marth, but there is also a good argument for prioritizing representing more series with at least one rep over giving series multiple reps in a smaller roster. If, say, there had been enough time to make a from-scratch fighter instead of Jigglypuff, then I could see Marth as part of the original 12, yeah. Maybe Link could have even been used as a base, but it's a little tricky for a few reasons like Link holding his sword in his left hand.
 
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DarthEnderX

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I wonder if Marth being in the original 12 would have changed the general reception of Fire Emblem in Smash at all.
It wouldn't, because there still weren't any FE games to PLAY in NA during Smash 64.

People still would have been like, "What is this?"

Earthbound was obscure, but at least it came out here.
 
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Gengar84

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It wouldn't, because there still weren't any FE games to PLAY in NA during Smash 64.

People still would have been like, "What is this?"

Earthbound was obscure, but at least it came out here.
Yeah, that’s a good point that I realized after posting. I edited my post afterward mentioning that bringing the games over to the west sooner would have helped a lot too.
 

fogbadge

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It wouldn't, because there still weren't any FE games to PLAY in NA during Smash 64.

People still would have been like, "What is this?"

Earthbound was obscure, but at least it came out here.
we europeans coped with not knowing who ness was
 

SPEN18

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Remember that in the 64 days there were fewer franchises that could actually qualify as a continuing, multi-game series, which could have made FE more attractive for Smash back then despite the Japan-only releases.
 

Gengar84

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Then start that writeup: you've got people you need to sell the idea on.
I’ll get right on that when I get some free time. I’ve got a week off work in a couple weeks so I’ll probably make a character concept for Gengar like I’ve done for other characters I’ve posted in this thread. It would be cool if we could have dedicated support threads but almost all of mine got no replies anyway. Still, it’s the best way I can think of to organize our thoughts on specific characters and build support without flooding this thread and annoying certain users by talking about the same characters too often.
 

PeridotGX

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If anything Meowth should’ve been one of the original 12 but I’ve already beaten a dead horse
the tricky thing there is that the extra 4 characters all use another character on the roster as a base, with Ness and Falcon lightly copying from Mario and Samus (respectively) and Luigi and Jigglypuff more heavily copying from Mario and Kirby (also respectively). Assuming Meowth replaces Jigglypuff, one of two scenarios has to happen:

  1. Meowth has to heavily reuse assets from another character, like how Jiggplypuff shared air attacks with Kirby in Smash 64. Mario and Fox are the only semi-viable candidates here, and neither of them are particularly "meowthy". I don't think this would work.
  2. Meowth takes one of the slots for the "lighter" copies, and one of Ness or Falcon either have to take more from their base or are replaced with someone who would be a better copy. This certainly works better for Meowth, now it can have fitting normals, but I don't know if I'd be willing to trade that for either a neutered or removed version of the other character. Both are iconic parts of the Smash series, and neither has much going on outside of it. If we decide to replace (because neither would really work in a more similar context), who gets added instead?
I get where you're coming from, Meowth is probably one of most deserving characters that isn't already in (personally I would only put it behind Eevee) but I don't think 64 is the best place for it. If anything, I think it should swap with Mewtwo, there's just a lot more flexibility there.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Meowth and Dixie definitely feel like they should be in Smash but probably won't be for... circumstancial reasons.

I dunno. Sometimes megastars just get left behind for no good reason.

I do feel like Dixie has more of a shot of making it though. All she needs is another big game.
 

Chuderz

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in my opnion it should have been Sukapon due to joy mech fight being the actual nintendo fighting game
baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaased

I think its current AT plus the work put into Plant could have brought it over the finish line and I would have much preferred that even if it didn't come with a stage though that plus Smash remixes would be sick! I think Sukapon would have fit so freaking well with the likes of ROB and Mr.G&W, would have been an entirely new series entering the game and would simultaneously be both a out of left field AND retro rep. If I could tweak one little thing about ultimate within the realm of realism and without adding a metric ****ton pile of content I want to (that's for my Ultimate DX posts) I'd of added Sukapon to the roster over Planet and I think the game would be better for it. I don't hate Plant though and now that their veteran status is cemented I don't wanna see them go now either.
 
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Sucumbio

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...now that their veteran status is cemented I don't wanna see them go now either.
Is it, though? To me veterans have to be in at least 2 games. Which begs the larger question in my head all the Ultimate newcomers could become veterans by coming back in the next game but will they?

I forgot who pointed it out but the number of characters Not returning (eventually in Snake's case, etc.) is actually really low. But I feel some of these characters who've been in ONLY 2 games may be closer to the 1-Game-so-far category and so are all kinda in their own thought bubble.

I dunno who's all on this list there's lots tho.

Regarding Pokemon I think this leads to a broader category. Nintendo has historically been very careful about brand and brand dilution. So I feel they've done an excellent job keeping Smash from becoming " that pokémon fighting game" or "that fire emblem fighting game"
 
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Gengar84

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I don’t think many people are going to agree with me and are probably sick of me talking about them (so I’ll drop the subject again for a while after this point) but I think it would have been cool to get one of RARE’s original characters in the first or second Smash games. They were still very closely tied with Nintendo at that point (I think Nintendo owned over 40% stock in the company) and Banjo, Fulgore, Joanna Dark, Conker and the Battletoads were all still iconic enough at the time to be a hype addition to the roster.
 

Sucumbio

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I don’t think many people are going to agree with me and are probably sick of me talking about them (so I’ll drop the subject again for a while after this point) but I think it would have been cool to get one of RARE’s original characters in the first or second Smash games. They were still very closely tied with Nintendo at that point (I think Nintendo owned over 40% stock in the company) and Banjo, Fulgore, Joanna Dark, Conker and the Battletoads were all still iconic enough at the time to be a hype addition to the roster.
Goldeneye got close but no cigar but honestly I... I feel like Rare at the time was seen as a strong dev arm of Nintendo especially by virtue of their style. When Smash 64 was in development they were thinking about the classic Nintendo IPs so Mario and Zelda, Star Fox and Pokémon, etc. Rare was still very much Western forward in terms of sales and popularity with reviews of BK at the time Strongly supporting it and comparing it to the success of Super Mario 64. It's really about timing and how Nintendo's style and handling of their sacred IPs wasn't always in tune with their development teams. Rare always had a strong Arcade sense about them which is what always attracted me being from that gaming generation, but history would prove that such a style was already on the way out.
 
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Gengar84

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Goldeneye got close but no cigar but honestly I... I feel like Rare at the time was seen as a strong dev arm of Nintendo especially by virtue of their style. When Smash 64 was in development they were thinking about the classic Nintendo IPs so Mario and Zelda, Star Fox and Pokémon, etc. Rare was still very much Western forward in terms of sales and popularity with reviews at the time Strongly supporting it and comparing it to the success of Super Mario 64. It's really about timing and how Nintendo's style and handling of their sacred IPs wasn't always in tune with their development teams. Rare always had a strong Arcade sense about them which is what always attracted me being from that gaming generation, but history would prove that such a style was already on the way out.
That makes sense. It’s a shame because I’ve been a Nintendo fan my whole life but so many of my favorite experiences growing up were playing RARE’s games on the SNES and N64. It would have been so cool to see them be a part of Smash since I’ll always associate their classic characters to my time as a kid and teenager playing them on Nintendo. James Bond would have been an obstacle for obvious reasons but I feel like their other major characters all had merit to make it in on their own. At this point, there’s so much competition, even from within Microsoft that it’s not particularly likely, but you can’t ever give up hope.

It’s a little disheartening because I feel like I’m living in an alternate universe from everyone else. Maybe RARE’s importance was just all in my head and it was me and my circle of friends that really loved playing the games growing up. I guess that’s possible because I never really followed general gaming news growing up. It would explain why I seem to be the only one that cares about them.
 
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fogbadge

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Goldeneye got close but no cigar but honestly I... I feel like Rare at the time was seen as a strong dev arm of Nintendo especially by virtue of their style. When Smash 64 was in development they were thinking about the classic Nintendo IPs so Mario and Zelda, Star Fox and Pokémon, etc. Rare was still very much Western forward in terms of sales and popularity with reviews of BK at the time Strongly supporting it and comparing it to the success of Super Mario 64. It's really about timing and how Nintendo's style and handling of their sacred IPs wasn't always in tune with their development teams. Rare always had a strong Arcade sense about them which is what always attracted me being from that gaming generation, but history would prove that such a style was already on the way out.
what do you mean goldeneye got close?
 

Gengar84

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I don’t think James Bond was ever seriously considered but imagine if he had actually gotten into Smash 64. The entire speculation scene would be radically different because none gaming characters would have never been off the table from the beginning.
 

Stratos

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I've not played any Rare games other than the Goldeneye, but although I've written and rewritten it other times, Rare is a better fit for Nintendo.
 

Sucumbio

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what do you mean goldeneye got close?

It would explain why I seem to be the only one that cares about them.
Aww not at all! All my friends played the f outta goldeneye. Ken Griffey Jr. Baseball, Killer Instinct! I mean there was a competitive scene for the SNES port ffs lol

Ah and there's the rub. Nintendo was being inadvertently subverted by their dev team who inauspiciously launched Killer Instinct in Western Arcades which was at the time Sega's domain in Japan. It literally led to the downfall of Rare. Had this been amicably executed Rare would have made Star Fox 64 but instead... well .. you know the rest.


Edit



I don’t think James Bond was ever seriously considered but imagine if he had actually gotten into Smash 64. The entire speculation scene would be radically different because none gaming characters would have never been off the table from the beginning.
Never thought of that but remember the ColecoVision? That bond game was fun dude.
 
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Stratos

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An item from Goldeneye has appeared the Motion-Sensor Bomb in the first Super Smash Bros. and the Super Smash Bros. Melee, but if James Bond appeared himself he would be a 4th party character.
 

fogbadge

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I don’t think James Bond was ever seriously considered but imagine if he had actually gotten into Smash 64. The entire speculation scene would be radically different because none gaming characters would have never been off the table from the beginning.
he wasn’t

For Goldeneye, I think one of the old polls for Melee had him at the top for Rare characters.
Also Motion Sensor Bomb (though Japan changed it to Perfect Dark’s Proximity Mine)
i think that’s the same poll that had toad at 8th most wan




Aww not at all! All my friends played the f outta goldeneye. Ken Griffey Jr. Baseball, Killer Instinct! I mean there was a competitive scene for the SNES port ffs lol

Ah and there's the rub. Nintendo was being inadvertently subverted by their dev team who inauspiciously launched Killer Instinct in Western Arcades which was at the time Sega's domain in Japan. It literally led to the downfall of Rare. Had this been amicably executed Rare would have made Star Fox 64 but instead... well .. you know the rest.


Edit





Never thought of that but remember the ColecoVision? That bond game was fun dude.
when did we star counting items as close
 
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