Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[dream1ng]

Well, it’s a better statistic than anything else I could find. Also Sora got in so obviously things are a bit skewed. You never know, but if you really think that bias is in effect, then why isn’t Ayumi Tachibana or Meteos in the game as fighters?

Right, it's interesting, but it more shows generally popular characters in Japan than provides a ranking to be treated as dogma. As is the same for any fan poll.

And Ayumi Tachibana... a character he considered twenty-two years ago and decided against? You know he also considered Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Excitebiker, and Urban Champion for that role that eventually went to Ice Climbers as well. He wasn't biased for her, she was just one of the characters he had, at one point, considered.

He's considered a multitude of characters since then that we'll never hear about, because people will read far too much into it. Case in point.

And let's not play around, I think you and everyone else knows why we don't have Meteos. If that game was a series, and that series was actually a thing and not an obscure third-party one-off, and there was, y'know, an actual character, we very well might.

But if you don't think there's a Kirby bias in effect, why does nearly all the significant Kirby content come from one of like three games in a thirty game series? The ratio skews even more unevenly than towards Gen 1 or the post-Awakening era.

I don't understand how Sakurai could be biased against BWD for supposedly not being his creation when he debuted in Super Star. So not only is Sakurai the creator of the Waddle Dee but also the one responsible for throwing a bandana on one. Sure I guess the moveset would be pulled from games that Sakurai didn't have anything to do with but the character itself is his creation through and through.

Well in terms of Sakurai's contribution BWD is like a glorified extra, so I doubt he really takes ownership of where the character has gone. It's basically a case of "well technically..." that Sakurai doesn't seem to entertain.

The Kirby series has just been neglected like many other first-party series in the game including Star Fox, formerly Metroid (though I think more Metroid is justifiable like Sylux and Ravenbeak) and most notoriously Zelda. Kirby's not special in that regard and I doubt Sakurai has some deeply unconscious bias against Kirby games he didn't have any involvement in. On slightly different note I would love a Dyna Blade Assist Trophy.

The Kirby series has about fifteen main games. All the characters, all the stages, all the ATs, all the items, the boss, and all the costumes come from the three, count em, three main games Sakurai directed (and the one item from Air Ride: a Sakurai game) - the last one releasing 26 years ago, and there being like a dozen newer ones since. That's about one fifth of the main titles, all Sakurai's, leading to 100% of the primary content. And that's... a coincidence to you?

How many other series with Kirby's level of content (or more) haven't added a single stage from any of its games released since Smash has become a thing? It's not like those other Kirby games are bad or unsuccessful or unpopular.

This isn't comparable to Star Fox or Metroid or Zelda, where character-wise they may (or at least used to) not get as much attention, but at least over half their games (closer to most) are represented through "main" content.

 

[Chuderz]

Well in terms of Sakurai's contribution BWD is like a glorified extra, so I doubt he really takes ownership of where the character has gone. It's basically a case of "well technically..." that Sakurai doesn't seem to entertain.


The Kirby series has about fifteen main games. All the characters, all the stages, all the ATs, all the items, the boss, and all the costumes come from the three, count em, three main games Sakurai directed (and the one item from Air Ride: a Sakurai game) - the last one releasing 26 years ago, and there being like a dozen newer ones since. That's about one fifth of the main titles, all Sakurai's, leading to 100% of the primary content. And that's... a coincidence to you?

How many other series with Kirby's level of content (or more) haven't added a single stage from any of its games released since Smash has become a thing? It's not like those other Kirby games are bad or unsuccessful or unpopular.

This isn't comparable to Star Fox or Metroid or Zelda, where character-wise they may (or at least used to) not get as much attention, but at least over half their games (closer to most) are represented through "main" content.

I definitely understand he has a bias for his Kirby games but I don't think that necessarily translates into a bias against other Kirby games. He just sticks to what he knows and he's fonder of his contributions because they're more personal to him. I definitely agree that it's time to expand upon Kirby's representation in the game with post-Sakurai work being acknowledged heavily in that (please Dyna Blade tho) but I also think it's kind of cool that the Sakurai-era, the OG creator of Kirby and director of Smash, is borderline fully represented in the game and I personally would see Bandana Dee as the cherry on top of that sweet representation sundae.

Also wasn't the Woolly World stage suppose to be a Kirby stage based on a post-Sakurai Kirby game before it got retooled into Woolly World? If so that at least suggests he's open to it.

I think the Zelda representation is the worst of them all though. I think it's actually absurd that the Smash community sort of just handwaves its representation as sufficient enough because it's the triforce trio and the state Ganondorf is in really shouldn't count as honest representation either. I don't get why Fire Emblem and now Xenoblade one-offs are to be expected but Zelda a series way more popular can't have its one-offs. Most of Rosalina's appearances are in Mario Kart at this point. Not Skull Kid's or Midna's fault Nintendo discriminates entry into Mario Kart based on series because I and many others think they'd make fantastic additions to the series and screw the purists! I hope Nintendo Kart actually becomes a thing.

Personally, especially in the case of Ultimate DX, I think the best way to start fixing Zelda's representation in the game is the fix what's already there because all the Links are fully capable of having their own unique movesets. I've been meaning to do a post on that.

 

[dream1ng]

I definitely understand he has a bias for his Kirby games but I don't think that necessarily translates into a bias against other Kirby games. He just sticks to what he knows and he's fonder of his contributions because they're more personal to him. I definitely agree that it's time to expand upon Kirby's representation in the game with post-Sakurai work being acknowledged heavily in that (please Dyna Blade tho) but I also think it's kind of cool that the Sakurai-era, the OG creator of Kirby and director of Smash, is borderline fully represented in the game and I personally would see Bandana Dee as the cherry on top of that sweet representation sundae.

I certainly think it gets so little recognition despite being no less a part of the series that anything outside a Sakurai game not showing up is entirely possible. Whether it stems from bias for his own games or bias against the other games (and I agree the former is likely the motivation) it has amounted, so far, to an outcome that is more or less the same.

Also Dyna Blade is from Super Star so yeah the chance is there for some sort of representation. Though boss would probably work best and we just got a Kirby boss.

Also wasn't the Woolly World stage suppose to be a Kirby stage based on a post-Sakurai Kirby game before it got retooled into Woolly World? If so that at least suggests he's open to it.

It was... but we didn't end up getting it... and then despite 4 adding two new Kirby stages, they were from Dream Land and Super Star, two games that already have Kirby stages. And neither of those new stages were even particularly good.

Meanwhile, no Lor Starcutter, no Mirror Chamber, no Shiver Star, no nothin. But we had that opportunity. And I guess we got close. But Sakurai chose Sakurai. Again.

I think the Zelda representation is the worst of them all though. I think it's actually absurd that the Smash community sort of just handwaves its representation as sufficient enough because it's the triforce trio and the state Ganondorf is in really shouldn't count as honest representation either. I don't get why Fire Emblem and now Xenoblade one-offs are to be expected but Zelda a series way more popular can't have its one-offs. Most of Rosalina's appearances are in Mario Kart at this point. Not Skull Kid's or Midna's fault Nintendo discriminates entry into Mario Kart based on series because I and many others think they'd make fantastic additions to the series and screw the purists! I hope Nintendo Kart actually becomes a thing.

Personally, especially in the case of Ultimate DX, I think the best way to start fixing Zelda's representation in the game is the fix what's already there because all the Links are fully capable of having their own unique movesets. I've been meaning to do a post on that.

I think most of the fanbase does agree Zelda is overdue for a character, the problem is it can't agree on who. And until it does, no character will be able to get in due to the fanbase's efforts, which might otherwise be our best shot.

But... FE and Xenoblade are to be expected because we actually get those one-offs. Zelda we could, it'd be nice, but we don't. So there's no expectation for it currently. I know some people poo-poo the idea of straying from the triforce characters to the one-offs... but it's Zelda. If any series warrants digging into the b-tier now, it's that one. It's got a lot of good candidates. Mario's already started, that series just has the benefit of a recurring b-tier, while outside of Impa (and once upon a time Tingle), Zelda doesn't really have that. And the main driving point behind Impa's demand is her spin-off appearances, which doesn't help. But ****, more people know Skull Kid or Midna than any given unincluded Xenoblade character anyway, let's be real.

I think people would be pretty put off if they diversified one of the Links instead of adding a newcomer though.

 

[Chuderz]

I certainly think it gets so little recognition despite being no less a part of the series that anything outside a Sakurai game not showing up is entirely possible. Whether it stems from bias for his own games or bias against the other games (and I agree the former is likely the motivation) it has amounted, so far, to an outcome that is more or less the same.

Yes I agree that it's time for post-Sakurai representation of Kirby in Smash and that whatever the motivating factor is it has yielded the same result.

Also Dyna Blade is from Super Star so yeah the chance is there for some sort of representation. Though boss would probably work best and we just got a Kirby boss.

I know that's why I was yanking your chain a little there! I'm serious though. Because of discussion here I emulated Super Star for first time like at the beginning of the year. I think somebody was saying that Smash itself is sort of derived from Super Star in ways? I don't know about that though I guess the beginnings little bits of Smash here and there. I feel like that's maybe just the Kirby series in general in regards to setting the foundation for Smash.

Anyway Dyna Blade is just such a magnificent beast. I think someone was saying it's like the last Sakurai thing left to implement basically? If that's the case make it a boss/AT like Rathalos to really top things off together with BWD!

It was... but we didn't end up getting it... and then despite 4 adding two new Kirby stages, they were from Dream Land and Super Star, two games that already have Kirby stages. And neither of those new stages were even particularly good.

Meanwhile, no Lor Starcutter, no Mirror Chamber, no Shiver Star, no nothin. But we had that opportunity. And I guess we got close. But Sakurai chose Sakurai. Again.

Yes I played the Great Cave Offensive in Super Star recently and wow it was such a good time and wow it didn't translate to Smash very well at all. The Smash version doesn't really feel like it at all. I think it would have been better for the stage to just travel and end up in various Kirby parts of the Great Cave Offensive like the NES stage did. I guess we disagree on that though because I think the NES one is charming at least.

I think most of the fanbase does agree Zelda is overdue for a character, the problem is it can't agree on who. And until it does, no character will be able to get in due to the fanbase's efforts, which might otherwise be our best shot.

But... FE and Xenoblade are to be expected because we actually get those one-offs. Zelda we could, it'd be nice, but we don't. So there's no expectation for it currently. I know some people poo-poo the idea of straying from the triforce characters to the one-offs... but it's Zelda. If any series warrants digging into the b-tier now, it's that one. It's got a lot of good candidates. Mario's already started, that series just has the benefit of a recurring b-tier, while outside of Impa (and once upon a time Tingle), Zelda doesn't really have that. And the main driving point behind Impa's demand is her spin-off appearances, which doesn't help. But ****, more people know Skull Kid or Midna than any given unincluded Xenoblade character anyway, let's be real.

I think people would be pretty put off if they diversified one of the Links instead of adding a newcomer though.

We should get our B-tier. They're such cool characters and it's Zelda! C'mon Nintendo! What're doin'?!?

I think the fanbase has more or less coalesced around 3 and they are Impa, Skull Kid and Midna/Wolf-Link. Oh and the Champions I guess recently but I legitimately have no idea how that character is supposed to work and would rather just implement the champion abilities into Link's moveset. I guess they would be like Pokemon Trainer + 1 extra character of work? Jeesh but I guess I'd say they'd be worth the massive effort because then all the mainstay Zelda species would be represented at that point. I just imagine that character being broken though. I don't know where'd you begin to balance all of those fighters as a functioning single character against the rest of cast of Smash.

Oh gosh even if it was Tingle I guess I'd take it at this point. After over 20 years possibly 25 years when it actually happens we essentially get a joke character. It'd... It'd be... It'd be fine... I guess it'd be fine... Please don't Nintendo/Sakurai. Please just don't. He's fine being a silly stage element. I'm begging you.

I accepted after Pythra and Byleth that the FE and now Xenoblade fanbases just win Smash. Mario and Pokemon too of course. The rest of us fans of literally any other franchises in the game can sustain ourselves with the scraps of their feast of content in the game.

Yeah again I want to make a post regarding how I would go about fixing what Zelda representation already has but it's such an unmitigated disaster at this point. Even Zelda herself could use some work though I guess when compared with everyone she's mostly fine. I think she could be waaaaaay better though.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Right, it's interesting, but it more shows generally popular characters in Japan than provides a ranking to be treated as dogma. As is the same for any fan poll.

And Ayumi Tachibana... a character he considered twenty-two years ago and decided against? You know he also considered Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Excitebiker, and Urban Champion for that role that eventually went to Ice Climbers as well. He wasn't biased for her, she was just one of the characters he had, at one point, considered.

He's considered a multitude of characters since then that we'll never hear about, because people will read far too much into it. Case in point.

And let's not play around, I think you and everyone else knows why we don't have Meteos. If that game was a series, and that series was actually a thing and not an obscure third-party one-off, and there was, y'know, an actual character, we very well might.

But if you don't think there's a Kirby bias in effect, why does nearly all the significant Kirby content come from one of like three games in a thirty game series? The ratio skews even more unevenly than towards Gen 1 or the post-Awakening era.


Well in terms of Sakurai's contribution BWD is like a glorified extra, so I doubt he really takes ownership of where the character has gone. It's basically a case of "well technically..." that Sakurai doesn't seem to entertain.


The Kirby series has about fifteen main games. All the characters, all the stages, all the ATs, all the items, the boss, and all the costumes come from the three, count em, three main games Sakurai directed (and the one item from Air Ride: a Sakurai game) - the last one releasing 26 years ago, and there being like a dozen newer ones since. That's about one fifth of the main titles, all Sakurai's, leading to 100% of the primary content. And that's... a coincidence to you?

How many other series with Kirby's level of content (or more) haven't added a single stage from any of its games released since Smash has become a thing? It's not like those other Kirby games are bad or unsuccessful or unpopular.

This isn't comparable to Star Fox or Metroid or Zelda, where character-wise they may (or at least used to) not get as much attention, but at least over half their games (closer to most) are represented through "main" content.

The reason why I don’t think there’s a Kirby Bias in effect literally comes down to the fact that we almost got an Epic Yatn Stage in Smash Wii U, but then he was made aware of Woolly World (and likely given some assets) and decided a flat large stage is a bad idea, and decided to make the last minute shift to something he’s worked on in the past so make things a little smoother considering the last minute upgrade. And I think that change was for the better because a stage that’s as large as Great Cave being flat sounds more torturous than 75m. The Gameboy Stage is dumb though like, at least add Dream Land 2, or bring back Green Greens in base game and roll with Sarasaland. But the point is this, I’m pretty confident if there’s enough fan demand, Sakurai would add Bandanna Dee, but Ultimate had higher priorities and unfortunately Dee wasn’t one of them. Also Meteos has a Character. Those alien things. I’m pretty confident if he wanted it in the game he probably could’ve haggled it out of them lmao.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Some of this may also come down to misguided notions about what elements from a series should take priority. The DK series gets rather disproportionate focus on aspects from Donkey Kong Country 1, especially stages. None of that is necessarily rooted in a developer dislike or lack of awareness of what else could be included, but more from potential belief that that game is the one people are most familiar with and thus is one that fans would best respond to. Sakurai's Kirby titles (Superstar especially) do cast a long shadow over the series, and it's entirely possibly that both he and enough people at Nintendo view that as enough reason for them to get a stronger focus overall.

Granted that clashes with stuff like Pac-Land being chosen when its contemporary popularity and relevance is fairly lacking in comparison to even something like Pac-Man World however, ultra retro characters are often operating on a different set of rules anyway.

 

[Perkilator]

In other news:

引っ越しなどでパーツが混在していたシューティングゲームヒストリカを組み直した｡
特にロボものはパズルさながらだったけど､間違いはないかなあ…? pic.twitter.com/eg7JhFmll2

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 15, 2022

Speed Weed
Why is Opa Opa not an Assist Trophy

 

[chocolatejr9]

In other news:

引っ越しなどでパーツが混在していたシューティングゲームヒストリカを組み直した｡
特にロボものはパズルさながらだったけど､間違いはないかなあ…? pic.twitter.com/eg7JhFmll2

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 15, 2022

Speed Weed
Why is Opa Opa not an Assist Trophy

So... TwinBee in Smash?

 

[Stratos]

Protoman is should come as an echo of Megaman in the next Super Smash Bros. game.

 

[HyperSomari64]

引っ越しなどでパーツが混在していたシューティングゲームヒストリカを組み直した｡
特にロボものはパズルさながらだったけど､間違いはないかなあ…? pic.twitter.com/eg7JhFmll2

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 15, 2022

The only missing big SHMUP franchise in that collection is Touhou Project, but it will be jarring.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Protoman is should come as an echo of Megaman in the next Super Smash Bros. game.

No. Bass should be the Echo.

Protoman should be an AT. With the whistle and everything.

 

[Stratos]

Banjo and Conker made their debut in Diddy Kong Racing as it is know and their video game series owned by Microsoft. Nintendo could buy their IPs, because due to their debut I would say they are characters from the Donkey Kong and Mario series as well. If Nintendo took them back, we could see Banjo, Kazooie and Conker in Party, Kart and Sports games in the Mario series. To be honest, the Banjo-Kazooie and Conker series may belong to Microsoft, but to me they continue to be in the same universe as Donkey Kong and Mario.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Protoman should be an AT. With the whistle and everything.

Like in the Beta versions of Super Smash Flash 2?

 

[Stratos]

No. Bass should be the Echo.

Protoman should be an AT. With the whistle and everything.

And that's a good idea.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

I'd be accepting of Bass as the echo choice for Rock if he had a cool scarf, but sadly he does not.

You know who does, though?

Proto Man.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I'd be accepting of Bass as the echo choice for Rock if he had a cool scarf, but sadly he does not.

You know who does, though?

Proto Man.

But does Proto Man have a pet wolf?

That's what I thought.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

But does Proto Man have a pet wolf?

That's what I thought.

Imagine thinking wolves are superior to having hair this rad.

Spoiler: Big image

Anyways, I personally see nothing interesting in Bass and he would probably be the first real inclusion to disappoint me ever so slightly since goddamn Proto Man is just so unbelievably cool in every regard.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

This back and forth is making me realize Capcom's leaving money on the table in not doing a Mega Man fighting game outside the power titles over 25 yeas ago. Between the various figures from the five subseries, there's some real potential there.

 

[dream1ng]

Some of this may also come down to misguided notions about what elements from a series should take priority. The DK series gets rather disproportionate focus on aspects from Donkey Kong Country 1, especially stages. None of that is necessarily rooted in a developer dislike or lack of awareness of what else could be included, but more from potential belief that that game is the one people are most familiar with and thus is one that fans would best respond to. Sakurai's Kirby titles (Superstar especially) do cast a long shadow over the series, and it's entirely possibly that both he and enough people at Nintendo view that as enough reason for them to get a stronger focus overall.

Granted that clashes with stuff like Pac-Land being chosen when its contemporary popularity and relevance is fairly lacking in comparison to even something like Pac-Man World however, ultra retro characters are often operating on a different set of rules anyway.

I agree there seem to be misguided notions about priority within the series, but more in the sense that most major Kirby games get basically nothing outside of a spirit and maybe a music rip.

It not only clashes with an example like Pac-Land, it's different than how every other series operates. DK (which is also skewed and underrepresented) does skew towards DKC1, but also has arcade DK, Jungle Beat, and DKCR stages. It's not just about Rare. In fact, all the Rare stages we got happened when Rare was still with Nintendo. It hasn't carried on like the series got no new games in the last two decades.

Super Star is a high-point in the series critically, but... Zelda continued getting stages past OoT. Star Fox got stages past 64. Metroid got stages past Super Metroid. We have an Other M stage for goodness sakes. Smash has more major Other M content than any Kirby content post 1996.

Even Pokemon doesn't lean so heavily towards Gen 1 as Kirby does towards its three Sakurai games. And everyone knows Gen 1 gets preference.

More over, Super Star is actually the second lowest selling main Kirby game, only Dream Land 3, which came out even later on the SNES, below it. Just by audience number and distance of release, things like Return to Dream Land or Triple Deluxe or Robobot would have the numbers (post-Ultimate games aside). The numbers and the positive reception to at least get a stage. At least one of them. They were pretty notable games in the series.

It really seems like you lot are looking for every excuse as to how this isn't bias, but... c'mon. 100% - one hundred percent - of the primary content (plus Dragoon) comes from the exact three titles Sakurai made in the 90s. You will not see any other large Nintendo series neglect that much of the rest of its series, including the last quarter century of games. And the entire focus just happens to be on the three games made by this game's director? It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes.

The reason why I don’t think there’s a Kirby Bias in effect literally comes down to the fact that we almost got an Epic Yatn Stage in Smash Wii U, but then he was made aware of Woolly World (and likely given some assets) and decided a flat large stage is a bad idea, and decided to make the last minute shift to something he’s worked on in the past so make things a little smoother considering the last minute upgrade. And I think that change was for the better because a stage that’s as large as Great Cave being flat sounds more torturous than 75m. The Gameboy Stage is dumb though like, at least add Dream Land 2, or bring back Green Greens in base game and roll with Sarasaland. But the point is this, I’m pretty confident if there’s enough fan demand, Sakurai would add Bandanna Dee, but Ultimate had higher priorities and unfortunately Dee wasn’t one of them. Also Meteos has a Character. Those alien things. I’m pretty confident if he wanted it in the game he probably could’ve haggled it out of them lmao.

But even if we did get that stage, that doesn't obliterate bias. Smash clearly has a bias towards including Japanese characters, even though Banjo and Steve are there. Smash 4 clearly had a bias of characters with recent impact, even though the third-parties and DHD were included.

A bias is just a disproportionate treatment towards something preferred, not an exclusive focus, necessarily. Though this currently being an exclusive focus regarding primary content only strengthens how obvious it is. I mean, the best counterpoint is that we almost, once, got something major not from a Sakurai game, and then we didn't? I'd say that actually highlights the bias incredibly well.

And nowhere did I say BWD absolutely won't happen. I just think the confidence that it absolutely will happen is unwarranted, because there's a glaring potentially mitigating factor unique to this situation.

And for Meteos I meant a character as in, a specific character. Preferably with a name.

 

[Ivander]

Protoman is should come as an echo of Megaman in the next Super Smash Bros. game.

No. Bass should be the Echo.

Protoman should be an AT. With the whistle and everything.

I mean, Roll can work as an Echo too.

That said, part of the reason I want a Mega Man Echo is them using the other Special moves that Mega Man didn't keep. Like Beat, Tornado Hold, Skull Barrier, Ice Slasher, Hyper Bomb, etc. Like that's one of the disappointments I have with Echos is that some of the Custom moves could've come back for them, but didn't.

In other news:

引っ越しなどでパーツが混在していたシューティングゲームヒストリカを組み直した｡
特にロボものはパズルさながらだったけど､間違いはないかなあ…? pic.twitter.com/eg7JhFmll2

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 15, 2022

Speed Weed
Why is Opa Opa not an Assist Trophy

I'm just looking at some of the models he has, and already I'm seeing ships that I should not be surprised he has, but still am surprised just because they aren't that known. Like besides notable ones like Opa-Opa, Vic Viper and Twinbee, I also see ships from games not well known like X-Multiply and In the Hunt. Like I really want to see if I can find all the games each ship is from.

 

[Perkilator]

I mean, Roll can work as an Echo too.

That said, part of the reason I want a Mega Man Echo is them using the other Special moves that Mega Man didn't keep. Like Beat, Tornado Hold, Skull Barrier, Ice Slasher, Hyper Bomb, etc. Like that's one of the disappointments I have with Echos is that some of the Custom moves could've come back for them, but didn't.

I think Lucina would’ve been perfect for this. Like:
B: Dashing Assault
B + Forwards: Effortless Blade (now does all finisher types; forward, down and up in that order)
B + Up: Dolphin Jump
B + Down: Iai Counter

 

[YeppersPeppers]

I mean, Roll can work as an Echo too.

That said, part of the reason I want a Mega Man Echo is them using the other Special moves that Mega Man didn't keep. Like Beat, Tornado Hold, Skull Barrier, Ice Slasher, Hyper Bomb, etc. Like that's one of the disappointments I have with Echos is that some of the Custom moves could've come back for them, but didn't.

It really is a shame that they didn't bother to try and repurpose any of the cooler custom specials, especially for Mega Man who was one of the characters to have genuinely cool and interesting customs.

As for Roll, I remember being a bit iffy on the idea until I saw a FANTASTIC fan render for her that immediately sold me on it.

She refuses to lose, here's Roll from the Mega Man series!

(couldn't think of any jokes so I had to roll with it) pic.twitter.com/59NfUFPO0R

— Team Destination (@RendersSSBU) September 25, 2020

 

[fogbadge]

Banjo and Conker made their debut in Diddy Kong Racing as it is know and their video game series owned by Microsoft. Nintendo could buy their IPs, because due to their debut I would say they are characters from the Donkey Kong and Mario series as well. If Nintendo took them back, we could see Banjo, Kazooie and Conker in Party, Kart and Sports games in the Mario series. To be honest, the Banjo-Kazooie and Conker series may belong to Microsoft, but to me they continue to be in the same universe as Donkey Kong and Mario.

the mario series doesnt really have a canon

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'd be accepting of Bass as the echo choice for Rock if he had a cool scarf, but sadly he does not.

You know who does, though?

Proto Man.

Proto Man's scarf is actually pretty lame. You know who has a cool scarf?

Command Mission X.

****ing LASER SCARF!

 

[Ivander]

I'd be accepting of Bass as the echo choice for Rock if he had a cool scarf, but sadly he does not.

You know who does, though?

Proto Man.

Proto Man's scarf is actually pretty lame. You know who has a cool scarf?

Command Mission X.

****ing LASER SCARF!

Amateurs...

Amateurs.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I agree there seem to be misguided notions about priority within the series, but more in the sense that most major Kirby games get basically nothing outside of a spirit and maybe a music rip.

It not only clashes with an example like Pac-Land, it's different than how every other series operates. DK (which is also skewed and underrepresented) does skew towards DKC1, but also has arcade DK, Jungle Beat, and DKCR stages. It's not just about Rare. In fact, all the Rare stages we got happened when Rare was still with Nintendo. It hasn't carried on like the series got no new games in the last two decades.

Super Star is a high-point in the series critically, but... Zelda continued getting stages past OoT. Star Fox got stages past 64. Metroid got stages past Super Metroid. We have an Other M stage for goodness sakes. Smash has more major Other M content than any Kirby content post 1996.

Even Pokemon doesn't lean so heavily towards Gen 1 as Kirby does towards its three Sakurai games. And everyone knows Gen 1 gets preference.

More over, Super Star is actually the second lowest selling main Kirby game, only Dream Land 3, which came out even later on the SNES, below it. Just by audience number and distance of release, things like Return to Dream Land or Triple Deluxe or Robobot would have the numbers (post-Ultimate games aside). The numbers and the positive reception to at least get a stage. At least one of them. They were pretty notable games in the series.

It really seems like you lot are looking for every excuse as to how this isn't bias, but... c'mon. 100% - one hundred percent - of the primary content (plus Dragoon) comes from the exact three titles Sakurai made in the 90s. You will not see any other large Nintendo series neglect that much of the rest of its series, including the last quarter century of games. And the entire focus just happens to be on the three games made by this game's director? It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes.


But even if we did get that stage, that doesn't obliterate bias. Smash clearly has a bias towards including Japanese characters, even though Banjo and Steve are there. Smash 4 clearly had a bias of characters with recent impact, even though the third-parties and DHD were included.

A bias is just a disproportionate treatment towards something preferred, not an exclusive focus, necessarily. Though this currently being an exclusive focus regarding primary content only strengthens how obvious it is. I mean, the best counterpoint is that we almost, once, got something major not from a Sakurai game, and then we didn't? I'd say that actually highlights the bias incredibly well.

And nowhere did I say BWD absolutely won't happen. I just think the confidence that it absolutely will happen is unwarranted, because there's a glaring potentially mitigating factor unique to this situation.

And for Meteos I meant a character as in, a specific character. Preferably with a name.

Three things:
Japanese Fighting Game with Japanese Characters focusing on Japanese Gaming History because the game is made in Japan, with the primary language being Japanese, making Western Negotiations kinda difficult. Not impossible, but between a Tails and a Crash, nine times out of ten it’s going to be Tails getting in since he’s easier to get since there’s no language barrier. Also Banjo and Kazooie was second place on the Ballot and Steve is self explanatory so they were both exceptions.

Two, Meteos Aliens has a name, being the “Meteos”. And even if they didn’t Duck Hunt is right there. Also, Yoshi is in the game. Inklings. Pikachu and Hero. Wii. Fit. Trainer! All characters who have more so a title rather than a name. Yet they’re in anyways because they all were added into the game because they’re all unique.

And Lastly, Sakurai straight up admits that he may have put a little too much of himself into the game. But who truly cares. It makes Smash feel less corporate to have characters like Wii Fit Trainer or Pichu on the Roster. Smash is about celebrating both the old and the new, and regardless of any potential Kirby Bias, some that probably isn’t as prevalent as you believe considering we almost got an Epic Yarn Stage, I still think that Smash did a fine enough job.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Amateurs...

Amateurs.

That's a cloak, not a scarf.
Yes, I'm going to be that guy.

Bass.EXE is super cool, though, and while definitely not a real candidate for Smash I'd love to see him in a Capcom fighter of some kind.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Amateurs...

Amateurs.

Is that a scarf or a used curtain?

 

[Ivander]

That's a cloak, not a scarf.
Yes, I'm going to be that guy.

Bass.EXE is super cool, though, and while definitely not a real candidate for Smash I'd love to see him in a Capcom fighter of some kind.

Why not both? There are ultra long scarfs that are quite cloak-like.

But yeah, I'm still not happy that Battle Network has not gotten a collection yet. The Legends games and Star Force would also be good too. And I really do hope Megaman.exe or Bass.exe gets an appearance in a Capcom fighter....if we ever do get another one.

 

[fogbadge]

I maintain that the greatest scarves are the multipurpose ones capable of measurement, trip wires, trap tripping, make shift ropes and are about 6ft long knitted by madam Nostradamus

 

[Stratos]

Maybe coming in next Super Smash Bros. game the M. Bison or Akuma as newcomer? Of course if Ryu and Ken they coming again.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Maybe coming in next Super Smash Bros. game the M. Bison or Akuma as newcomer? Of course if Ryu and Ken they coming again.

I think if Street Fighter were to get a second non-echo fighter, it comes down to Chun-Li or Bison. I would love to see some Psycho Crusher in Smash, though I believe Chun-Li has the edge for being, well, Chun-Li.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The comment about the Zelda fan base being divided in who needs to be included isn't all that true honestly. There are quite a few frontrunners , Impa being the biggest one so far. The only reason people would dislike it is cause she might have some similarities to Sheik, a character who will not survive a big roster reboot anyway many speculate (me included).

Ganon is also a overlooked potential newcomer, and could replace Ganondorf outrightly. If there was to be a humanoid Calamity Ganon in BotW2, I think it would stand a chance of being included.

And Zelda could easily get both, if we keep the current cast or not. Impa and Ganon are huge characters to the Zelda franchise, worthy of inclusion even if Sheik and Ganondorf would stay. Especially if we get a Link cut.

Impa and Ganon have been with th Zelda franchise from the very beginning, and appear in many titles ever since even the latest entry. So I see no good reason they should be overlooked and not pushed as the absolute most logical picks, because in many ways they just are.

Impa is just speculated to be "nothing but a clone," sometimes, which may be half truth because even if she'd have some similarities to Sheik, there's a lot they can do to differentiate her. Ganon is already represented through Ganondorf, but yeah so what ? Ganondorf can get another Final Smash, and Ganon was still a boss in Ultimate despite Ganondorf being a character.

 

[Megadoomer]

Maybe coming in next Super Smash Bros. game the M. Bison or Akuma as newcomer? Of course if Ryu and Ken they coming again.

Not that it matters any more (since he's no longer with Capcom), but Yoshinori Ono did say that he'd like to see Bison in Smash, so there's some interest.

Which Street Fighter character does Ono want in Smash Bros.?

Street Fighter producer Yoshinori Ono has previously stated that he wouldn’t mind seeing Mega Man making an appearance in the Smash Bros. franchise at some point. However, that’s not the only Capcom character he’d like to include in one of the series’ games. Ono told NGamer that, if he had to...

nintendoeverything.com

(the interview was pre-Smash 4, to explain why he mentions Mega Man)

If we're getting a fighting game bad guy, I'd like to see Heihachi. (or Rugal or Geese, but I don't think Smash Bros. is ready for SNK boss nonsense)

 

[Stratos]

Not that it matters any more (since he's no longer with Capcom), but Yoshinori Ono did say that he'd like to see Bison in Smash, so there's some interest.

Which Street Fighter character does Ono want in Smash Bros.?

Street Fighter producer Yoshinori Ono has previously stated that he wouldn’t mind seeing Mega Man making an appearance in the Smash Bros. franchise at some point. However, that’s not the only Capcom character he’d like to include in one of the series’ games. Ono told NGamer that, if he had to...

nintendoeverything.com

(the interview was pre-Smash 4, to explain why he mentions Mega Man)

If we're getting a fighting game bad guy, I'd like to see Heihachi. (or Rugal or Geese, but I don't think Smash Bros. is ready for SNK boss nonsense)

You're right.

 

[SPEN18]

the ballot is allegedly what got Sakurai to finally come around on Ridley

I actually disagree with the assessment that the ballot is what pushed Ridley over the edge. Him being a stage hazard AND Sakurai actually making explicit comments about him not being workable probably hurt him somewhat on the ballot itself, and they knew about his popularity from even before then anyway. Sakurai's workaround for Ridley being "too big" is pretty observably predicated on the ability to base him on his retro appearance, where the scale issues are less problematic. The man could've just been in the shower one day and randomly thought of doing him like that, and that would've been about all Ridley needed to be strongly considered, ballot or no; I find the argument of "the ballot votes are what made Sakurai reconsider" to be a pretty purely speculative one.

It's a popular character that likely would've made it without the ballot had it been considered workable from the start, and there are so many different things that could've triggered the thought in Sakurai's head to solve the apparent issue like he did.

--

Not that popularity at the current moment is particularly useful anyway for anyone. I doubt they're surveilling during this period of pronounced inactivity.

Well, you never know when they might be looking...but, yeah, they probably don't look until it comes time to make the project plan at least. Still, IMO it's important to keep up support and momentum if possible, especially since we don't know when a project plan starts getting worked on. And because, well, it's fun to talk Smash roster regardless.

In any case, it stinks to see so much character passion go into hibernation just because there are no immediate prospects for inclusion...

--

As for parts of the Bandana Dee discussion from earlier...

I think that there are some cases where a single game warrants a dedicated rep, but you also have to take into account whether or not there are any potential such reps that have the requisite star power.

I don't think Dee specifically would get in for representing a singular game, though...I thought one of the biggest arguments for him over other Kirby characters is that he recurs and not that he represents one particular game that people remember especially fondly. Unless you just want him for modern Kirby in general? Or the combination of representing like FL and Return to DL both in particular?

 

[JOJONumber691]

The comment about the Zelda fan base being divided in who needs to be included isn't all that true honestly. There are quite a few frontrunners , Impa being the biggest one so far. The only reason people would dislike it is cause she might have some similarities to Sheik, a character who will not survive a big roster reboot anyway many speculate (me included).

Ganon is also a overlooked potential newcomer, and could replace Ganondorf outrightly. If there was to be a humanoid Calamity Ganon in BotW2, I think it would stand a chance of being included.

And Zelda could easily get both, if we keep the current cast or not. Impa and Ganon are huge characters to the Zelda franchise, worthy of inclusion even if Sheik and Ganondorf would stay. Especially if we get a Link cut.

Impa and Ganon have been with th Zelda franchise from the very beginning, and appear in many titles ever since even the latest entry. So I see no good reason they should be overlooked and not pushed as the absolute most logical picks, because in many ways they just are.

Impa is just speculated to be "nothing but a clone," sometimes, which may be half truth because even if she'd have some similarities to Sheik, there's a lot they can do to differentiate her. Ganon is already represented through Ganondorf, but yeah so what ? Ganondorf can get another Final Smash, and Ganon was still a boss in Ultimate despite Ganondorf being a character.

Honestly, what are your thoughts on Old Lady Impa in Smash? I think it could be the more interesting approach to Impa, being the old master ninja only held back by age. I think that could be pretty fascinating imo.

 

[SPEN18]

what are your thoughts on Old Lady Impa in Smash?

Well, with the younger Impa the moveset options are much more obvious, and the OoT appearance has got to be the most iconic one, right?

The appearances as an old woman are definitely a big part of the character, though...I'd be open to a moveset that incorporated it in some way. I'm not sure how one could reconcile both in the same moveset effectively, though.

 

[ahemtoday]

Two, Meteos Aliens has a name, being the “Meteos”.

...That's... not true. "Meteos" are the blocks you line up in the game. The mascots are called Geolytes.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Honestly, what are your thoughts on Old Lady Impa in Smash? I think it could be the more interesting approach to Impa, being the old master ninja only held back by age. I think that could be pretty fascinating imo.

The most notable appearances of Impa have been as a young Sheikah warrior, I wouldn't represent her in any other way in Smash.

I actually feel BotW cheated her chances a bit, having her appear as old. Had she appeared as the Sheikah Champion for example (which I think is weird they didn't do) with the Paya model, she would've been a lock. But alas.