Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SPEN18]

Well, if we're going to go back into talking about port vs. no port, here are some more thoughts:

I personally don't relate to this fear of not being able to top Ultimate.

Overall technological capabilities are only going up with time, Nintendo's and Sakurai's knowledge on how to make a game like this only goes up, and the allowed budget you would only expect to increase as well. You just might not have the ability of reusing assets as heavily next time, and potentially the more advanced hardware would require more resources to develop for. But at a fundamental level they are now more capable of making a ground-up Smash game than they were when they made 4, and that game had over 50 characters. Despite my arguments for cuts being bent into people saying that I want the total roster size chopped in half or something, I still think the total character count could easily be 60+, at the very least with DLC, if they made a ground-up Smash game and not a port. That's more than enough characters to put together a compelling roster, especially if they don't do EiH and actually put their heads together on how to make proper Zelda, FE, etc. rosters.

Even if you don't think they can "top" Ultimate, Nintendo doesn't really have to. They just have to give the new project enough to make it its own game with its own identity. And they're the experts at doing that in gaming anyway. There are plenty of ways to do this, from new mechanics to new modes to even the new characters on their own. People will get hungry for Smash again, and when they do, they will buy. No, they're not going to try to lowball people into buying a game with Brawl's roster size, probably not even 4's, and they are more than capable of topping those games even without asset reuse. A slightly smaller roster than base Ultimate isn't going to stop the project from being massively profitable, especially if they have a new stock of creative USPs alongside it.

 

[Wonder Smash]

If you're referring to character slots, some people think that they were just there to throw off data-miners. If I recall correctly, Smash4 had some unused internal slots at the time of its final update. Don't get me wrong, though, I'd love it if Ultimate could pull a Mario Kart 8DX and suddenly get updates long after we all thought support had ended.

That's kind of what I've been thinking. I'd love that too.

 

[Ivander]

I’m having a hard time seeing how Nintendo is going to drive excitement for the next Smash game if the roster is drastically scaled back from Ultimate. I fear that most people will just see the game as a worse Ultimate, myself included, unless they give us something huge in return.

And that's not even reaching anywhere near the bottom of the barrel. We have plenty of popular characters and series, newer games coming out with new characters, dark horse possibilities and Nintendo characters in general, not yet in a Smash game. Yes, no doubt it will hurt a bit if we lose somebody like Sephiroth, Sora, Snake, etc. That's the nature of copyright issues and whatnot. But it's not a hard task to fill in that void when there are just as many popular and notable characters and series, both Nintendo and 3rd Party, that have yet to be added to Smash Bros.

 

[Gengar84]

View attachment 351911
And that's not even reaching anywhere near the bottom of the barrel. We have plenty of popular characters and series, newer games coming out with new characters, dark horse possibilities and Nintendo characters in general, not yet in a Smash game. Yes, no doubt it will hurt a bit if we lose somebody like Sephiroth, Sora, Snake, etc. That's the nature of copyright issues and whatnot. But it's not a hard task to fill in that void when there are just as many popular and notable characters and series, both Nintendo and 3rd Party, that have yet to be added to Smash Bros.

All of those characters are nice, but I don’t like any of them as much as Cloud and Sephiroth. Bill Rizer is among my most wanted but he wouldn’t excite me as much if I lose my favorite character in the process. I think Bill is the only character I actively want out of that whole list. The others would be nice to have but they aren’t among my personal favorites.

 

[Lenidem]

View attachment 351911
And that's not even reaching anywhere near the bottom of the barrel. We have plenty of popular characters and series, newer games coming out with new characters, dark horse possibilities and Nintendo characters in general, not yet in a Smash game. Yes, no doubt it will hurt a bit if we lose somebody like Sephiroth, Sora, Snake, etc. That's the nature of copyright issues and whatnot. But it's not a hard task to fill in that void when there are just as many popular and notable characters and series, both Nintendo and 3rd Party, that have yet to be added to Smash Bros.

So that wouldn't "scale back the roster".

 

[Ivander]

So that wouldn't "scale back the roster".

Why should losing older characters and getting newer character "scale back the roster"? Out of 86/89 characters, only 18 are 3rd Party. Obviously, any Nintendo character taken out can easily be replaced by another Nintendo character and it's most likely most of the clones who will be taken out. Capcom and Sega are incredibly likely to stick with Smash Bros., so 6 characters would stay. If Namco Bandai continues making Smash Bros, Pac-Man and Kazuya are more than likely to stay. If Nintendo keeps a good relationship with Microsoft, Banjo and Steve are pretty likely to stay. And SNK was pretty enthusiastic with giving Terry, so I wouldn't be surprised if he came back.
So far, that's 11 3rd Parties very likely staying. It's really Konami, Square and Disney who are the wild cards.
-Square seems very positive with their characters in Smash. It's just that their copyrights are a pain to deal with. Dragon Quest/Hero may have gotten a better possibility with the death of the main music composer. Cloud and Sephiroth appear to be a case of real copyright pains to deal with, considering it was implied that they have to deal with alot of copyright holders in different regions. Whether they stay or not definitely depends on how those copyrights are handled for a future game.
-Konami seemed pretty enthusiastic with Castlevania joining, so Simon and Richter may have a good chance of staying. It's really Snake that we don't have a clue on how Konami views him. If any Konami characters are cut, Snake appears to be the most likely compared to Simon and Richter.
-And obviously, we have no clue how much they had to deal with copyright regarding Sora, Disney and possibly Square.

Anyway, if 11 out of 18 3rd Parties are kept, it doesn't take a whole lot to fill in those 7 spots.
-You could easily fill in 3 of those slots with Dante, Resident Evil and Monster Hunter, with how cooperative Capcom is with Smash Bros. Possibly even more if Sakurai is interested in other Capcom IPs/characters.
-Sega is also pretty cooperative and not only has Shadow and Dr. Eggman, but also other notable IPs, like Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Phantasy Star, Shin Megami Tensei, etc.
-If Namco continues with Smash Bros, you have plenty of Namco IPs not in yet, like Tales of, Dark Souls, Xenosaga, Soul Calibur, etc.
-If Microsoft stays, Master Chief, as well as Activision/Blizzard properties and Bethesda properties, are pretty possible scenarios.
-SNK's Nakoruru from Samurai Shodown is notably popular.
-And you have other companies or makers who are on pretty good terms with Nintendo, like Koei Tecmo, Wayforward, Toby Fox, etc.

Really, I don't see the roster getting scaled back a whole lot, so next game will more than likely have more characters than Ultimate. And there's always DLC that can possibly bring back some characters, like how Smash 4 did for Mewtwo, Lucas and Roy. I really wouldn't be so pessimistic for the next Smash roster unless for it's first few trailers, there aren't alot of characters shown. Since Nintendo clearly knows that the roster and characters are a big deal for Smash Bros.

 

[SPEN18]

. Capcom and Sega are incredibly likely to stick with Smash Bros., so 6 characters would stay. If Namco Bandai continues making Smash Bros, Pac-Man and Kazuya are more than likely to stay. If Nintendo keeps a good relationship with Microsoft, Banjo and Steve are pretty likely to stay. And SNK was pretty enthusiastic with giving Terry, so I wouldn't be surprised if he came back.
So far, that's 11 3rd Parties very likely staying

I don't think it's quite as simple as the respective company being on board with it. Nintendo also has to continue to think they are worth licensing and rostering over other alternatives. They have limited resources to work with, some of which have to go to newcomers as well as vets. Maybe someone like Joker isn't as relevant in the future and doesn't come back even if other SEGA stuff does. The point is that it's not necessarily a whole package deal for all characters from a given company to come back just because that company would be okay with it; there's multiple factors including Nintendo wanting them back and Nintendo being able to invest the resources in bringing them back.

 

[Ivander]

I don't think it's quite as simple as the respective company being on board with it. Nintendo also has to continue to think they are worth licensing and rostering over other alternatives. They have limited resources to work with, some of which have to go to newcomers as well as vets. Maybe someone like Joker isn't as relevant in the future and doesn't come back even if other SEGA stuff does. The point is that it's not necessarily a whole package deal for all characters from a given company to come back just because that company would be okay with it; there's multiples factors including Nintendo wanting them back and Nintendo being able to invest the resources in bringing them back.

i mean, sure, it's not that simple. But Nintendo not wanting to bring back some characters feels like one of the last things Nintendo should do, considering the roster and characters are an important factor. Like I can understand them being hesitant with the more bigger copyrights like the Square characters, Sora and maybe the Microsoft characters, but most of the others feel like they were quite easy to get.
And wouldn't it be downright absurd and bizarre for some characters to not come back while getting any new characters they get from the same company? Like removing either Mega Man or Ryu and bringing in a notably requested character like Dante would be very.....backwards? Counter-intuitive? Or whatever word I'm looking for. Like I get the point about choosing the characters who'd be most marketable at the time, but at the same time, wouldn't you want to get back any other characters you got from the company while you're getting any newcomers from them? Taking out older characters for new ones from the same company sounds more like the opposite of what you should do in terms of marketing.

 

[PeridotGX]

i mean, sure, it's not that simple. But Nintendo not wanting to bring back some characters feels like one of the last things Nintendo should do, considering the roster and characters are an important factor. Like I can understand them being hesitant with the more bigger copyrights like the Square characters, Sora and maybe the Microsoft characters, but most of the others feel like they were quite easy to get.
And wouldn't it be downright absurd and bizarre for some characters to not come back while getting any new characters they get from the same company? Like removing either Mega Man or Ryu and bringing in a notably requested character like Dante would be very.....backwards? Counter-intuitive? Or whatever word I'm looking for. Like I get the point about choosing the characters who'd be most marketable at the time, but at the same time, wouldn't you want to get back any other characters you got from the company while you're getting any newcomers from them? Taking out older characters for new ones from the same company sounds more like the opposite of what you should do in terms of marketing.

I don't know, I would rather get as much new content as possible. Joker and Simon have had their fun, now it's time for Demi-Friend and Bomberman to get their turn. Having a bunch of new content would make it easier to differentiate the two games. If you want to play as a character who didn't make it back... just play Ultimate.

(And just to prove my point, I would gladly sacrifice both of mains for one new character. I'm no hypocrite)

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I know Megaman and Ryu aren't going anywhere at least.

Because their ****ing, Megaman and Ryu. Two of the most iconic yet easy to license characters in history, you'd have to be insane to cut them.

 

[Lenidem]

Why should losing older characters and getting newer character "scale back the roster"? Out of 86/89 characters, only 18 are 3rd Party. Obviously, any Nintendo character taken out can easily be replaced by another Nintendo character and it's most likely most of the clones who will be taken out. Capcom and Sega are incredibly likely to stick with Smash Bros., so 6 characters would stay. If Namco Bandai continues making Smash Bros, Pac-Man and Kazuya are more than likely to stay. If Nintendo keeps a good relationship with Microsoft, Banjo and Steve are pretty likely to stay. And SNK was pretty enthusiastic with giving Terry, so I wouldn't be surprised if he came back.
So far, that's 11 3rd Parties very likely staying. It's really Konami, Square and Disney who are the wild cards.
-Square seems very positive with their characters in Smash. It's just that their copyrights are a pain to deal with. Dragon Quest/Hero may have gotten a better possibility with the death of the main music composer. Cloud and Sephiroth appear to be a case of real copyright pains to deal with, considering it was implied that they have to deal with alot of copyright holders in different regions. Whether they stay or not definitely depends on how those copyrights are handled for a future game.
-Konami seemed pretty enthusiastic with Castlevania joining, so Simon and Richter may have a good chance of staying. It's really Snake that we don't have a clue on how Konami views him. If any Konami characters are cut, Snake appears to be the most likely compared to Simon and Richter.
-And obviously, we have no clue how much they had to deal with copyright regarding Sora, Disney and possibly Square.

Anyway, if 11 out of 18 3rd Parties are kept, it doesn't take a whole lot to fill in those 7 spots.
-You could easily fill in 3 of those slots with Dante, Resident Evil and Monster Hunter, with how cooperative Capcom is with Smash Bros. Possibly even more if Sakurai is interested in other Capcom IPs/characters.
-Sega is also pretty cooperative and not only has Shadow and Dr. Eggman, but also other notable IPs, like Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Phantasy Star, Shin Megami Tensei, etc.
-If Namco continues with Smash Bros, you have plenty of Namco IPs not in yet, like Tales of, Dark Souls, Xenosaga, Soul Calibur, etc.
-If Microsoft stays, Master Chief, as well as Activision/Blizzard properties and Bethesda properties, are pretty possible scenarios.
-SNK's Nakoruru from Samurai Shodown is notably popular.
-And you have other companies or makers who are on pretty good terms with Nintendo, like Koei Tecmo, Wayforward, Toby Fox, etc.

Really, I don't see the roster getting scaled back a whole lot, so next game will more than likely have more characters than Ultimate. And there's always DLC that can possibly bring back some characters, like how Smash 4 did for Mewtwo, Lucas and Roy. I really wouldn't be so pessimistic for the next Smash roster unless for it's first few trailers, there aren't alot of characters shown. Since Nintendo clearly knows that the roster and characters are a big deal for Smash Bros.

If the amount of characters stays the same or gets bigger, then the roster is not "scaled down". That's all I'm saying.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Capcom, Namco and Sega are to stay with Smash, am quite sure of that too. I think they might actually expend their amount of characters. Not too sure about Microsoft, but it seems more likely than not that they'd stay.

 

[DarthEnderX]

if you want an edgelord team go for ghost types

Bug types have a ton of awesome “edgelordy” Pokémon as well.

People! People! Please!

Dark-type is literally called Evil-type in Japan. You can't get more edgelordy than that.

 

[fogbadge]

People! People! Please!

Dark-type is literally called Evil-type in Japan. You can't get more edgelordy than that.

despite the fact that gengar straight up murders people, chandelure burns souls, shedinja steals souls, zoroark (hisu) is a vengeful spirit, banette is doll seeking revenge etc. you should read the dex entries cause iirc a lot of dark types are said to not be as bad as they look

 

[Perkilator]

I know Megaman and Ryu aren't going anywhere at least.

Because their ****ing, Megaman and Ryu. Two of the most iconic yet easy to license characters in history, you'd have to be insane to cut them.

I just wish SF songs outside of II were licensed for Ultimate. :/

 

[chocolatejr9]

People! People! Please!

Dark-type is literally called Evil-type in Japan. You can't get more edgelordy than that.

No wonder it took so long to get a Gym Leader...

 

[JOJONumber691]

Ever since Ultimate has ended, and heck even before then, I’ve been thinking of the most likely way an Ultimate Deluxe could happen, what with the Legal Nightmare of the Third Parties involved. So, I’ve used some decent reasoning to figure out some requirements. Take this with a grain of salt, as I am not involved with ANYONE in Ultimate, I just have way too much free time.

So, I don’t think NAMCO, SNK, Microsoft, or Capcom would have any prerequisites for getting their characters back. SNK is absurdly nice considering the whole two bankruptcies in a decade thing, NAMCO is the developer, so they’re on pretty good terms with Nintendo by default, Capcom let a Gacha Game give out Ken for free and let a Power Rangers Game add Ryu and Chun-Li… twice, and plenty of other examples as long as they get some licensing money out of it they don’t care, and Microsoft is so rich that they wouldn’t care at all about just letting Banjo and Steve stay considering they have never made a single dime off of Xbox. These four are the example of what types of companies are most likely to stay after Ultimate. Microsoft could be somewhat difficult due to language barrier, but at the same time I think that hurdle is worth it for having Minecraft in your game. Now we get on to those who could be more difficult.



SEGA is probably the least expected on this list, but probably the simplest to appease. Notice how they’ve gotten a new fighter in every Smash Game since Brawl, and only give out minimal tracks after a character is added. I feel like their prerequisite is probably just getting a DLC Fighter early on so they can get that DLC Cut Third Parties probably get. Now Konami is FARRRRRRR Trickier because they’re all over the place in general, but I think that theirs is probably two things. One is probably no in game videos. Ultimate never got it despite most of Switch Games having it, with the closest thing being replays. So I wouldn’t be surprised if Konami was involved with that, or just the Dev Team being weird but you never know. And two, it’s probably a lot of free advertising in base game in order to make up for using a Kojima IP. Let me explain. Konami has this thing called a Hate Boner for Kojima and everything he’s made, even more so than they do most of their other IP. Sure Metal Gear and Silent Hill (yes he was involved in a couple of the games in that series too) characters get used once in a Blue Moon, but that’s rare and the last time was Bomberman as DLC. So Konami is weird when it comes to Kojima Characters, and Snake was probably really hard to get back as a result. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Konami’s prerequisite is a ton of money for Metal Gear and Free Advertising for other IP after that, like giving Castlevania an absurd amount of content including two fighters out the gate and an Item, and making Bomberman an Assist Trophy. This is the one I’m easily the least sure about so please obliterate me if I am wrong about Konami.



Now, the four related to Square. The least troublesome is definitely Hero. Considering the one guy who made Hero difficult is now dead (rip bozo), the ownership has now gone down to his apprentice, Matsuo Hayato, who is very lenient with his Music, and considering he’s the owner after Sugiyama died, Hero shouldn’t be that difficult, especially considering Toriyama is probably very lenient considering how frequently Dragon Ball Games are made. Final Fantasy on the other hand is THE definition of a Legal Nightmare! Mostly because ownership is all over the place varying on Region and what exactly is being licensed so let’s get this done and over with, shall we? Square has a habit, at least in Japan, of having their Composers own the Music. Internationally, to my understanding if anyone knows more on this than I do please let me know, the Music is all over the place, even for singular entires, meaning that every Final Fantasy Track like, let’s say the Battle Theme from Final Fantasy 1, would have to get approval and licensing done for everyone involved with ownership of tracks in certain regions. And if one doesn’t approve, it all falls through. So yeah there’s a reason why Cloud only got two music tracks back in the day lmao. This isn’t even including Character Design, or Voice Acting. Just the music is this complicated. Not to mention how Square prefers characters be DLC than Base Game, with Cloud being the one exception, and then you realize why Ultimate is probably never happening again. Disney is ****ing weird man. I feel like Sora is either potentially one of the easiest characters to get back, or one of the hardest, depending entirely on how Disney is feeling that day. So he could go either way, but no matter what it’s either Sora is DLC again or we get someone else from Kingdom Hearts (Club Penguin never released in Japan) gets in, and no matter what they’re probably not getting any remixes either.




I have way too much free time, so for a tl;dr, NAMCO, Capcom, SNK, and Microsoft likely just require a renewal and nothing more. SEGA needs a Fighter as DLC, and Konami is that way unless you have a Kojima Character and need to shill (to my understanding), Square Copyright is all over the place but Hero should be pretty easy to get back now that Sugiyama is dead, and Disney is Bipolar. The end!

 

[Stratos]

I read somewhere that Masahiro Sakurai since he is not sure whether Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is the last game in the series, he had tried to let the series be continued by someone else but failed. However, I still believe that the Super Smash Bros. series will continue with or without Masahiro Sakurai.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Disney is ****ing weird man. I feel like Sora is either potentially one of the easiest characters to get back, or one of the hardest, depending entirely on how Disney is feeling that day.

This is the best way to describe licensing stuff from Disney ive ever seen lol

 

[Stratos]

NetherRealm Studios is a video game company owned by Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment also owns the Mortal Kombat series. Scorpion is the mascot not only of the Mortal Kombat series, but also of NetherRealm Studios itself. I know that the Mortal Kombat series has been banned in Japan due to excessive violence, but it is a famous series as well as Scorpion which is its mascot and with the phrase it uses as it is known in the series "Get over here!". But I think that in order for Scorpion to come in the Super Smash Bros. series, not only Ed Boon and others from NetherRealm Studios, but Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment in general must convince Nintendo to put him as a newcomer, although I know this is impossible.

 

[SPEN18]

i mean, sure, it's not that simple. But Nintendo not wanting to bring back some characters feels like one of the last things Nintendo should do, considering the roster and characters are an important factor. Like I can understand them being hesitant with the more bigger copyrights like the Square characters, Sora and maybe the Microsoft characters, but most of the others feel like they were quite easy to get.
And wouldn't it be downright absurd and bizarre for some characters to not come back while getting any new characters they get from the same company? Like removing either Mega Man or Ryu and bringing in a notably requested character like Dante would be very.....backwards? Counter-intuitive? Or whatever word I'm looking for. Like I get the point about choosing the characters who'd be most marketable at the time, but at the same time, wouldn't you want to get back any other characters you got from the company while you're getting any newcomers from them? Taking out older characters for new ones from the same company sounds more like the opposite of what you should do in terms of marketing.

Well, it's not so much that Nintendo would turn actively sour on the character, but more that some characters might be lower priority relative to other content, including newcomers from the same or a different company.

No, it wouldn't be bizarre for us to get new characters from a company without all the old ones coming back. The Mega Man and Ryu example is a more extreme case. But, more generally, some characters are just more pricey or could become less relevant. It's not hard to imagine Joker being passed up by another Sonic rep if he's no longer relevant, or Cloud/Sephiroth being too pricey for another round, especially in base game.

Also newcomers are generally bigger USPs than oldcomers. For better or for worse, people are attracted to what is new and different; the newcomers can be used to much greater effect in marketing the game.

 

[fogbadge]

I read somewhere that Masahiro Sakurai since he is not sure whether Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is the last game in the series, he had tried to let the series be continued by someone else but failed. However, I still believe that the Super Smash Bros. series will continue with or without Masahiro Sakurai.

well of course it will, with all the money it makes it’ll never stop

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If Atlus is going to treat P5 the same way as they treat P4 which they do. I could see Joker coming back for the next smash and all they would add from Persona is music from P6 and a new Mementos variant for that game.

That is if P6 is a thing that ever actually happens. lol

 

[Yamat08]

Now, the four related to Square. The least troublesome is definitely Hero. Considering the one guy who made Hero difficult is now dead (rip bozo), the ownership has now gone down to his apprentice, Matsuo Hayato, who is very lenient with his Music, and considering he’s the owner after Sugiyama died, Hero shouldn’t be that difficult, especially considering Toriyama is probably very lenient considering how frequently Dragon Ball Games are made. Final Fantasy on the other hand is THE definition of a Legal Nightmare! Mostly because ownership is all over the place varying on Region and what exactly is being licensed so let’s get this done and over with, shall we? Square has a habit, at least in Japan, of having their Composers own the Music. Internationally, to my understanding if anyone knows more on this than I do please let me know, the Music is all over the place, even for singular entires, meaning that every Final Fantasy Track like, let’s say the Battle Theme from Final Fantasy 1, would have to get approval and licensing done for everyone involved with ownership of tracks in certain regions. And if one doesn’t approve, it all falls through. So yeah there’s a reason why Cloud only got two music tracks back in the day lmao. This isn’t even including Character Design, or Voice Acting. Just the music is this complicated. Not to mention how Square prefers characters be DLC than Base Game, with Cloud being the one exception, and then you realize why Ultimate is probably never happening again. Disney is ****ing weird man. I feel like Sora is either potentially one of the easiest characters to get back, or one of the hardest, depending entirely on how Disney is feeling that day. So he could go either way, but no matter what it’s either Sora is DLC again or we get someone else from Kingdom Hearts (Club Penguin never released in Japan) gets in, and no matter what they’re probably not getting any remixes either.

Sephiroth's Challenger Pack gives me the impression that Squenix resolved some of the licensing issues, at least as it concerns Final Fantasy VII REMAKE (from which a lot of the Spirits were derived). This could just be some wishful thinking, but going into REMAKE, they could've thought out some more longterm solutions to better streamline the licensing (especially considering Nobuo and other crucial figures have left them in the decades since the original). Could potentially be the case with the Pixel Remasters, too.

But yeah, if any third parties get cut, I wholly expect Squenix to be on the chopping block. Though I really hope that they only prove difficult to get into the base game, with DLC being a much easier way to negotiate with them (considering they can profit more directly off of each sale). Keep in mind, one of the main reasons Everyone Is Here happened to begin with is because veterans were commonly requested for Smash4's DLC. I'm sure Nintendo and Sakurai are all too aware of how apprehensive the Smash fandom is towards cuts, and even if worse comes to worse and not everybody comes back for the base game (which I am fully anticipating, as not only was Ultimate's base roster extremely difficult, but it also added two cycles of DLC, plus Smash6 inevitably having base newcomers of its own), measures could be taken to ensure that the roster gets once again completed eventually. In fact, given how major of an asset Smash is to Nintendo, I don't think it'd be too hard to budget a team fully dedicated to just restoring past game content post-release (and so long as they don't split the game between the current-gen console and a far weaker portable device again, there shouldn't be complications like IceClimbers and Pokemon Trainer...... seriously, I can't help wondering if Everyone Is Here was something they were aiming for with Smash4 before giving up on it due to such complications, plus Konami's something-or-other and the WiiU's foreseen demise, thus why we couldn't get a much more realizable veteran like Wolf at the time).

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Honestly, having season passes made up of a mix of returning and new smash fighters so that eventually "Everyone is here" could happen again via DLC is such a lucrative idea that i could very well see Nintendo going for.
I can just SEE the dollars signs in the eyes of higher ups.

 

[fogbadge]

I can just SEE the dollars signs in the eyes of higher ups.

i think those are there all the time

 

[SPEN18]

While some cut vets returning as DLC is a possibility, I highly doubt they would use the DLC to recomplete EiH.

While vets can sell DLC to an extent, at a certain volume it becomes pretty tiring for fans (more casual ones especially) to have so much returning content rehashed as paid add-ons. At a point they just...are better served moving on, I think.

You also don't get to make use of the gimmicky marketing slogan "Everyone is Here" until after the main game is released, which is...a little late for it to be effective.

And, crucially, you have to consider that vets who get cut are going to get cut for very specific reasons that more than likely will not get resolved when DLC comes around (more literally, they usually get cut due to being outprioritized, but as I'm saying there are very specific reasons for being low priority).
The reasons might be, among other things: being a superfluous clone that only got in as rosterpad to begin with, being originally a "relevancy" pick that isn't actually relevant anymore, otherwise getting in originally via circumstantial factors that are no longer applicable, having a gimmicky moveset that causes technical issues with the new hardware, or being a third party with licensing issues.

With things like Wolf getting cut and theories about them trying to complete EiH in 4...the far simpler explanation is that Wolf was just a "lucky" inclusion in Brawl to begin with and was unlikely to get high priority going forward. And that him not being DLC was at least in part due to what I said above about vets, especially clones, only being "worth it" in DLC at a certain limited quantity.

 

[RileyXY1]

Sephiroth's Challenger Pack gives me the impression that Squenix resolved some of the licensing issues, at least as it concerns Final Fantasy VII REMAKE (from which a lot of the Spirits were derived). This could just be some wishful thinking, but going into REMAKE, they could've thought out some more longterm solutions to better streamline the licensing (especially considering Nobuo and other crucial figures have left them in the decades since the original). Could potentially be the case with the Pixel Remasters, too.

But yeah, if any third parties get cut, I wholly expect Squenix to be on the chopping block. Though I really hope that they only prove difficult to get into the base game, with DLC being a much easier way to negotiate with them (considering they can profit more directly off of each sale). Keep in mind, one of the main reasons Everyone Is Here happened to begin with is because veterans were commonly requested for Smash4's DLC. I'm sure Nintendo and Sakurai are all too aware of how apprehensive the Smash fandom is towards cuts, and even if worse comes to worse and not everybody comes back for the base game (which I am fully anticipating, as not only was Ultimate's base roster extremely difficult, but it also added two cycles of DLC, plus Smash6 inevitably having base newcomers of its own), measures could be taken to ensure that the roster gets once again completed eventually. In fact, given how major of an asset Smash is to Nintendo, I don't think it'd be too hard to budget a team fully dedicated to just restoring past game content post-release (and so long as they don't split the game between the current-gen console and a far weaker portable device again, there shouldn't be complications like IceClimbers and Pokemon Trainer...... seriously, I can't help wondering if Everyone Is Here was something they were aiming for with Smash4 before giving up on it due to such complications, plus Konami's something-or-other and the WiiU's foreseen demise, thus why we couldn't get a much more realizable veteran like Wolf at the time).

Especially if Square Enix does end up getting bought out by Sony like the rumors suggest.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Especially if Square Enix does end up getting bought out by Sony like the rumors suggest.

Those rumors are mostly baseless. The main reason they’re brought up is because of the tight relationship they have with Sony in regards to Final Fantasy but one could say they have an equally tight relationship with Nintendo for games like Dragon Quest XIS and Builders, Octopath Traveler, and Triangle Strategy.

If Square does end up going up for sale I can imagine Microsoft being the ones to try to scoop them up specifically because they’ve been trying to connect with the Japanese market. One sure fire way to do that is to make Dragon Quest, the Japanese phenomenon, an Xbox exclusive. Is it shady? Yeah sure but there’s no world in which Square gets bought out and we walk away in a better position. Either way, unless it’s Embracer Group or Sega or another 3rd Party, we lose.

 

[dream1ng]

I don't think any of the current third-party companies aren't likely to stick with Smash (of their volition, not Nintendo's), maybe other than Microsoft, if they change business strategies. There's no reason to pull back. Smash is very beneficial for all involved, and the connections already forged.

The exception is if someone gets bought out. Which will probably happen to at least one of them before the next Smash. Then it depends who buys them. If it's a third-party conglomerate like Embracer or Tencent they'll probably stay. If it's Microsoft that's probably contingent on MS's current stance. Sony... they're probably out of there. Unless Sakurai can really work some powerful magic.

All of those characters are nice, but I don’t like any of them as much as Cloud and Sephiroth. Bill Rizer is among my most wanted but he wouldn’t excite me as much if I lose my favorite character in the process. I think Bill is the only character I actively want out of that whole list. The others would be nice to have but they aren’t among my personal favorites.

Saying "but I wouldn't be excited" isn't a great response to receiving all those character options to the question of how Nintendo would drive excitement for the next game. More than one person plays Smash. Dozens, in fact.

So that wouldn't "scale back the roster".

Well those are some of the options. Scaling back the roster would be dictated by the number of cuts and the quantity of newcomers. It's not like we'd get all those characters.

If the amount of characters stays the same or gets bigger, then the roster is not "scaled down". That's all I'm saying.

I agree with this though.

 

[fogbadge]

I don't think any of the current third-party companies aren't likely to stick with Smash (of their volition, not Nintendo's), maybe other than Microsoft, if they change business strategies. There's no reason to pull back. Smash is very beneficial for all involved, and the connections already forged.

That only makes sense if everything stays the same as it is

and we can’t expect everything to stay the same now can we

edit: now that i think about it SNK's new owner could very well be problematic

 

[dream1ng]

That only makes sense if everything stays the same as it is

and we can’t expect everything to stay the same now can we

edit: now that i think about it SNK's new owner could very well be problematic

Well other than getting bought out by someone, which was my next paragraph, in which ways do you see things changing that would curtail the third-party companies' desire to be in Smash?

 

[chocolatejr9]

That only makes sense if everything stays the same as it is

and we can’t expect everything to stay the same now can we

edit: now that i think about it SNK's new owner could very well be problematic

Now that you mention it, SNK's new owner is apparently something of a dictator...

 

[dream1ng]

I think you guys are overestimating how much being mostly owned by a powerful Saudi is going to affect the big three continuing to do business with SNK. KoFXV recently came out for all the systems it usually would, and no one cared. Not Sony, or Microsoft, or the fans.

Nintendo isn't going to sever their ties with SNK either. These companies really don't care. They work with Foxconn, for god sakes.

 

[fogbadge]

I think you guys are overestimating how much being mostly owned by a powerful Saudi is going to affect the big three continuing to do business with SNK. KoFXV recently came out for all the systems it usually would, and no one cared. Not Sony, or Microsoft, or the fans.

Nintendo isn't going to sever their ties with SNK either. These companies really don't care. They work with Foxconn, for god sakes.

ah but companies don’t stay the same do they? I’ve seen many people comment on how Nintendo and SE have changed recently. Anyone of these companies could one day be led by people who do wish to boycott the dictator. Or perhaps one day they could be led by people who don’t like sakurai for whatever reason

or all the 3rd party companies might decide to make their own platform fighters and not let their characters be in smash as a result

 

[dream1ng]

ah but companies don’t stay the same do they? I’ve seen many people comment on how Nintendo and SE have changed recently. Anyone of these companies could one day be led by people who do wish to boycott the dictator. Or perhaps one day they could be led by people who don’t like sakurai for whatever reason

or all the 3rd party companies might decide to make their own platform fighters and not let their characters be in smash as a result

Yes well let's just see how far the head of some company takes their personal moral opposition against Saudi politics or a completed fabricated but theoretically possible grudge towards Sakurai against their desire for profit and exposure. Those at the top of companies with the power to make these decisions are always very ethically and emotionally driven, right? I mean, every single third-party company that joined the roster has remained on the roster into Ultimate, but sure. Maybe Sakurai will sleep with the wife of some CEO and ruin it for everyone.

Honestly, if these are your best arguments, that the board of some different, otherwise unrelated company is affronted that SNK retains a character in Smash, or that someone with the power to veto a character inclusion will be mad at Sakurai, and you think these are at all likely outcomes and not remote, somewhat straw-graspy reasons mostly just to disagree, I stand by it being unlikely that, buyout aside, the third-party desire wavers.

or all the 3rd party companies might decide to make their own platform fighters and not let their characters be in smash as a result

All the 3rd party companies decide to make their own platform fighters? All of them?

Besides the fact that the entire notion of mutual exclusivity between fighters is a talking point endowed with so much more credence than any actual precedent should grant it with, this just sounds like you're digging for any available counterpoint. All of them?

 

[fogbadge]

Yes well let's just see how far the head of some company takes their personal moral opposition against Saudi politics or a completed fabricated but theoretically possible grudge towards Sakurai against their desire for profit and exposure. Those at the top of companies with the power to make these decisions are always very ethically and emotionally driven, right? I mean, every single third-party company that joined the roster has remained on the roster into Ultimate, but sure. Maybe Sakurai will sleep with the wife of some CEO and ruin it for everyone.

Honestly, if these are your best arguments, that the board of some different, otherwise unrelated company is affronted that SNK retains a character in Smash, or that someone with the power to veto a character inclusion will be mad at Sakurai, and you think these are at all likely outcomes and not remote, somewhat straw-graspy reasons mostly just to disagree, I stand by it being unlikely that, buyout aside, the third-party desire wavers.


All the 3rd party companies decide to make their own platform fighters? All of them?

Besides the fact that the entire notion of mutual exclusivity between fighters is a talking point endowed with so much more credence than any actual precedent should grant it with, this just sounds like you're digging for any available counterpoint. All of them?

is it that hard to believe they could all make platform fighters? There are several genres they all seem to do

 

[Sucumbio]

... this just sounds like you're digging for any available counterpoint.

Bottom text

 

[Diddy Kong]

is it that hard to believe they could all make platform fighters? There are several genres they all seem to do

Namco could, the others? Yeah possibly, but I'm don't think they will.

 

[fogbadge]

Namco could, the others? Yeah possibly, but I'm don't think they will.

perhaps not but the game industry throws curveballs all the time