Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

It seems the most likely scenario honestly, Square and Sony always had the best bond, business wise. I could see them (Sony) allow Hero to stay, but Cloud, Sephiroth and Sora always seemed to me as the most shakey newcomers in terms of staying for the long-term. I refrain from saying this cause people are (understandably) passionate about them.

im a sora fan and i dont fancy his chances of coming back regardless of sony

 

[Diddy Kong]

Perhaps this doomed timeline could become more based if we get Black Mage in return.

Highly unlikely scenario.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Square Enix themselves might be the ones most immediately struggling after a purchase by Sony. As mentioned, SE's safest circumstance in terms of sales outside FF XIV or mobile are JRPG releases in Japan, a market that Nintendo now utterly dominates. A PS4 exclusive (or god forbid a PS5 one) release of Dragon Quest XII would face one hell of an uphill battle just from the PR backlash, let alone sales.

Long term an acquisition could pay dividends, but given Nintendo's been prone to gradually lure talent from various Japanese third parties already, SE could be facing the same thing, even if Sony buys them

 

[dream1ng]

I mean, can't be any worse than "Who's this blazing sword guy?" "What, you didn't play the Japan-only game that isn't even out yet?"

Well it was those very concerns that originally had Sakurai intending to keep those two exclusive to the Japanese version until the NA playtesters convinced him otherwise. After that he decided against including characters that only the Japanese audience would be familiar with and later stated he wouldn't have included Lucas had he known Mother 3 wasn't going to release outside Japan.

So if you're likening the example to something he now avoids doing, I'd say that speaks for itself.

im a sora fan and i dont fancy his chances of coming back regardless of sony

SE buyout aside, once the bridge is built it's going to be easier to cross. It's not like they're starting from square (heh) one.

 

[fogbadge]

SE buyout aside, once the bridge is built it's going to be easier to cross. It's not like they're starting from square (heh) one.

disney and nintendo already had a bridge and sakurai still didnt fancy his odds

 

[dream1ng]

disney and nintendo already had a bridge and sakurai still didnt fancy his odds

You understand how simply having a relationship with companies as multi-faceted and expansive as Disney and Nintendo is not tantamount to being able to achieve any given collaboration with them. One bridge is not the same as another.

Doing Art Academy with Mickey and Elsa is a totally different avenue with different parties within the company than getting Sora in Smash. One does not inherently inform the other past a baseline cooperation between companies. True enough. And that obviously is what gave Sakurai pause.

What does inform it... is already having done it. I'm not saying it's a guarantee Sora returns, but acting like those pillars have all been knocked down and they need to be rebuilt anew doesn't make sense either. They're not starting from where they were at seven years ago.

I think the only truly prohibitive measure for the third-parties is if they're bought out by someone who doesn't want to play, or the upper management within the company shifts. Otherwise, if Smash wants them back, I suspect Smash will be able to get them back.

 

[fogbadge]

Otherwise, if Smash wants them back, I suspect Smash will be able to get them back.

how optimistic

 

[DarthEnderX]

I would hate that because Square-Enix is one of my favorite developers ever and the thought of never getting any content in Smash or on Nintendo consoles again would really suck.

Yeah, I've been enjoying the hell out of all their retro-style RPGs on Switch lately. I'd hate to lose that.

 

[Wonder Smash]

That's not how the rating board works. They're not going to give a rating to something potentially sensitive in one game based on clarification given in another, separate game. They're going to rate the game solely with the context provided by that game.

And Smash clearly could've clarified it was a model if that's what it took to make it acceptable for E10, but they didn't even need to do that, because pistols, as they were implemented in Smash, are now within the realm of what's acceptable to maintain that rating.

It's not about the rating. It's more about how it's portrayed. It's something Sakurai and Nintendo don't want to be featured in Smash. They probably just don't think it fits their image or their series image. It's more of a personal choice along the lines of non-video game characters not being allowed in Smash.

Ffs, show me ANY game rating agency that has realistic firearms as content descriptor. You can't.
Brawlhalla has same age rating as Ultimate. Lara can fire her pistols in that game without raising rating.

Again, it's not about the rating. It's about what Nintendo and Sakurai personally don't want for their series.

 

[dream1ng]

how optimistic

Beats that argument that, will all else being equal, Sora will inexplicably be harder to get the second time than the first. Y'know, the one that required forging the path among all the parties in the first place. And I do mean inexplicably, because all you've replied to my points with is basically "doubt it".

Would you like to just keep disagreeing with me or do you have any actual points?

Because in absence of a counterargument it just leads me to believe it's the standard tenet of "character was hard to land = character will always be equally hard to land", which, when you think about it, doesn't make that much sense. Because a big reason characters are hard to land is a matter of getting everyone at the table and on the same page. Acting like they have to lay down the tracks all over again won't make it so.

 

[Lionfranky]

Let me explain why Snake, Joker, and Bayonetta are allowed in with their Weapons.
Snake uses his improperly half the time, with his Weapons also being stuff an Average Joe on the Streets can’t really buy… at all. Not to mention how Snake actually got his Landmine changed during Brawl’s Development, so CERO stepped in and told Sakurai to change it.
Bayonetta’s Guns look very fantastical and function very differently in game than a typical, realistic gun, what with having four of them, half of them on your feet being pretty obviously impossible, likely giving Bayonetta a Pass by CERO considering her sex appeal was also censored as well.
Joker is a little trickier, but Joker actually does use his gun very improperly in Smash. Joker’s Gun in P5 is the TT-33 handgun, which is normally used like this, and is used with one hand, a more traditional way to hold a gun, even if still inaccurate in P5 anyways, but Smash exaggerates it far more, with the posing and especially Arsene’s Powerup making it clear that this gun is more fantastical in nature than its TT-33 Inspiration. Essentially, Joker did just enough to maintain a CERO A that honestly I’m genuinely shocked that it wasn’t cut entirely lmao.

Go to CERO website and try to find content descriptor for realistic firearm.

Again, it's not about the rating. It's about what Nintendo and Sakurai personally don't want for their series.

When Sakurai talked about firearm, he was concerned about oversea rating. Nothing to do with game philosophy or design. That view changed like how he used to view Villager and Ridley.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Go to CERO website and try to find content descriptor for realistic firearm.

Lol someone is salty that Master Chief didn’t get in lmao.

 

[Lionfranky]

Lol someone is salty that Master Chief didn’t get in lmao.

I was mainly arguing for Lara though? This whole gun argument started from Lara' dual pistols. And UNSC guns are futuristic, so I'm not that concerned to begin with. Try to argue my stance, not ad hominem

 

[Wonder Smash]

When Sakurai talked about firearm, he was concerned about oversea rating. Nothing to do with game philosophy or design. That view changed like how he used to view Villager and Ridley.

Seeing how none of the characters still uses any real world firearms, it's obvious that that view hasn't changed.

 

[dream1ng]

It's not about the rating. It's more about the portrayal. It's something Sakurai and Nintendo don't want to be featured in Smash. They probably just don't think it fits the game's image or any of their game. It's more of a personal choice along lines of non-video game characters not being allowed in Smash.

That kind of falls at the first barrier when you consider they made no effort whatsoever to clarify it's a model gun for an audience that more than quintuples that of Persona 5. For god sakes, they said, "for his neutral special, he wields a gun". Even when it reached memehood, Nintendo still didn't clarify.

From an audience standpoint and from a ratings standpoint it might as well be a real gun, but your argument is that Sakurai can sleep soundly because he knows it's a replica? This is starting to verge in the same territory as all those fake leaks that try to explain Sakurai's mentality.

Also, Sakurai's opinion itself has changed enough over the course of the series that people no longer really treat it as dogma. He used to be against DLC, for instance. At one point he did say Ridley was too big. Like only a year before he added him. So even were your interpretation true, it wouldn't be damning.

Seeing how none of the characters still uses any real world firearms, it's obvious that that view hasn't changed.

Course it has. We've gone from Snake to Bayo to Joker, each getting progressively closer to what is considered more sensitive use of guns. And don't think we didn't have people saying it wouldn't exceed what we already received after each one of these.

Following that trajectory certainly allows for Lara.

 

[Wonder Smash]

That kind of falls at the first barrier when you consider they made no effort whatsoever to clarify it's a model gun for an audience that more than quintuples that of Persona 5. For god sakes, they said, "for his neutral special, he wields a gun". Even when it reached memehood, Nintendo still didn't clarify.

From an audience standpoint and from a ratings standpoint it might as well be a real gun, but your argument is that Sakurai can sleep soundly because he knows it's a replica? This is starting to verge in the same territory as all those fake leaks that try to explain Sakurai's mentality.

Also, Sakurai's opinion itself has changed enough over the course of the series that people no longer really treat it as dogma. He used to be against DLC, for instance. At one point he did say Ridley was too big. Like only a year before he added him. So even were your interpretation true, it wouldn't be damning.

Basically, you're saying "it looks likes a real gun so it might as well be one". It either is a real gun or it's not. There's never a problem with it being a gun at all. And in this case, yeah, it's a replica. Basically a toy model, with shots that are enhanced by the wielder's power.

Course it has. We've gone from Snake to Bayo to Joker, each getting progressively closer to what is considered more sensitive use of guns. And don't think we didn't have people saying it wouldn't exceed what we already received after each one of these.

Following that trajectory certainly allows for Lara.

None which uses real world pistols. Bayonetta's pistols are certainly not real and Joker has an enhanced toy pistol. If it changed like you say it did, Snake would most certainly have a moveset that reflects that and we'd probably have Resident Evil characters by now. But as of now, none of that is the case. Justifying a character by just basically saying "well, this is almost the case so it might as well be" is not enough.

 

[Sucumbio]

:/

I mean... I think it's clear that guns and explosives are ok in Smash so long as they're portrayed in a certain way. The point about replica is moot. The game is a replica. So... A cartoon gun that's canonically a toy is still a cartoon gun. It shoots cartoon bullets. Hence the E rating


Cartoon Violence
Comic Mischief
Suggestive Themes

What the devs have to deal with is how much realism is involved in the animation. Characters aren't splattering blood everywhere whenever Joker or Bayo "shoot" them. They aren't blown to smitherines when Snake's grenade explodes...

And so Lara Croft can wield dual pistols or a gatling gun or a .50 cal it's irrelevant. It's how it's portrayed that would run afoul of whatever rating board.

 

[dream1ng]

Basically, you're saying "it looks likes a real gun so it might as well be one". It either is a real gun or it's not. There's never a problem with it being a gun at all. And in this case, yeah, it's a replica. Basically a toy model, with shots that are enhanced by the wielder's power.

None which uses real world pistols. Bayonetta's pistols are certainly not real and Joker has an enhanced toy pistol. If it changed like you say it did, Snake would most certainly have a moveset that reflects that and we'd probably have Resident Evil characters by now. But as of now, none of that is the case. Justifying a character by just basically saying "well, this is almost the case so it might as well be" is not enough.

No, I've just seen enough lines draw in the sand by fans only to get fully obliterated later on, like people did with the limitations with Snake's arsenal, and then Bayo's, and now what you're doing with Joker's to know that believing in artificial barriers is a losing game and time-sensitive perspective. And that's just to do with guns, let alone so many other criteria the fans falsely designated as exclusionary.

You want to say the rating boards don't matter, the context in the game or lack thereof doesn't matter, that it's Sakurai's personal edict on how he views the game, of which you have taken ideological liberties to construct, that's the one that matters, well frankly it just sounds like you're on the backstep. It sounds like most of the arguments one could hope to lean on don't actually work in this instance, ones that would be demonstrably enforced, so now we have to pretend we know how Sakurai feels. But even if you were right, not only has Sakurai changed his mind before, but he has already voiced his personal disagreement on aspects of the roster he has nevertheless developed.

You know he thinks there are too many sword-wielders. He said that, and then they added five more. If it doesn't come down to the rating boards, but instead Sakurai's conception of the roster, how he views the game isn't the impenetrable obstacle it may have once been. Characters get in despite Sakurai's preference sometimes. Smash is bigger than Sakurai. And this is already giving more credence than assuming Sakurai's mindset warrants, frankly.

In any case, time eventually disproves these kind of notions better than my continued insistence ever could. It's just a shame the next game is as long a ways out as it probably is.

 

[Wonder Smash]

No, I've just seen enough lines draw in the sand by fans only to get fully obliterated later on, like people did with the limitations with Snake's arsenal, and then Bayo's, and now what you're doing with Joker's to know that believing in artificial barriers is a losing game and time-sensitive perspective. And that's just to do with guns, let alone so many other criteria the fans falsely designated as exclusionary.

It's not an artificial barrier when it's based on what Sakurai has said.

You want to say the rating boards don't matter, the context in the game or lack thereof doesn't matter, that it's Sakurai's personal edict on how he views the game, of which you have taken ideological liberties to construct, that's the one that matters, well frankly it just sounds like you're on the backstep. It sounds like most of the arguments one could hope to lean on don't actually work in this instance, ones that would be demonstrably enforced, so now we have to pretend we know how Sakurai feels. But even if you were right, not only has Sakurai changed his mind before, but he has already voiced his personal disagreement on aspects of the roster he has nevertheless developed.

You keep bringing up how Sakurai has "changed his mind" before. That could be used for anything he's said. In fact, that's literally been used for why people talk about non-video game characters. Anybody can change their mind but we can't pretend like they will until they actually do. In the meantime, I can just as easily say that he won't change his mind...because as of now, he still hasn't.

You know he thinks there are too many sword-wielders. He said that, and then they added five more. If it doesn't come down to the rating boards, but instead Sakurai's conception of the roster, how he views the game isn't the impenetrable obstacle it may have once been. Characters get in despite Sakurai's preference sometimes. Smash is bigger than Sakurai. And this is already giving more credence than assuming Sakurai's mindset warrants, frankly.

I also brought up Nintendo as a possible reason for that. After all, Sakurai has said that it's not up to him anyway. Seeing how Nintendo still keeps their family friendly image, it shouldn't surprise anybody if there are some exceptions to their roster.

In any case, time eventually disproves these kind of notions better than my continued insistence ever could. It's just a shame the next game is as long a ways out as it probably is.

People are just going to have to accept that some things are just not going to change.. While it's true that Sakurai has changed his mind about some things, there are others that he still hasn't. Non-video game characters? We're five games in without them and Sakurai has stuck to that. Should we still act like he's going to change his mind? Characters with no prior appearances on Nintendo consoles? We're five games in without them and Sakurai has not even hinted to change his mind about that. Should we still act like he's going to change his mind? I'd rather wait and see what actually happens instead of thinking about could happen.

 

[fogbadge]

Beats that argument that, will all else being equal,

wasnt an argument just an observation. not everyone is looking to debate you know some of us are just expressing out inherent cynicism and dont want to point out things that a bridge between companies that is based on having met a person who may not be working there anymore by the time we get to smash 6 is itself to presume to much

 

[Yamat08]

Characters with no prior appearances on Nintendo consoles? We're five games in without them and Sakurai has not even hinted to change his mind about that.

Reading this, I just remembered how a lot of people were hoping that a Switch port of Persona 5 would get announced, but it never ended up happening. Though, does anyone think it will come about at some point? I could go either way on the whole "Do spin-offs count as a Nintendo appearance?" debate, but still, I would not in any way object to Joker's main game eventually coming to Nintendo, much like Final Fantasy VII did.

On a similar note (and I'm probably just parroting what I said way earlier in this thread), I do think it'd be nice if Nintendo got some kind of release for the earlier Fatal Frame titles, seeing as they partially own the series now IIRC. And god knows I've been clamoring for that Xenosaga remaster (the series is owned by Bandai Namco, but it wouldn't surprise me if Monolith Soft had access to several of the old assets). Still think it's a bit of a shame how Bayonetta seems like the only Nintendo-acquired (for lack of a better term) IP to get the complete series ported over to their platform, but granted, there was only one prior game to said "series" at the time.

 

[RileyXY1]

Apparently SE sold off all those franchises to focus more on blockchain and NFTs.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Apparently SE sold off all those franchises to focus more on blockchain and NFTs.

Yeah, no wonder people expect Sony to buy them...

 

[RileyXY1]

Yeah, no wonder people expect Sony to buy them...

And if that happens, the next Smash game will be forced to cut Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and Sora. They're already on shaky ground as is because of how stingy SE is.

 

[JOJONumber691]

And if that happens, the next Smash game will be forced to cut Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and Sora. They're already on shaky ground as is because of how stingy SE is.

It wasn’t really stinginess though. It was more so just complicated copyrights since Square Music is usually owned by the composer, and the Character Designs are sometimes owned by that person, which is definitely the case with Dragon Quest considering Toriyama. Not sure about Final Fantasy though. Still doesn’t mean that Sony Ownership would make the process any less complicated.

 

[chocolatejr9]

It wasn’t really stinginess though. It was more so just complicated copyrights since Square Music is usually owned by the composer, and the Character Designs are sometimes owned by that person, which is definitely the case with Dragon Quest considering Toriyama. Not sure about Final Fantasy though. Still doesn’t mean that Sony Ownership would make the process any less complicated.

Final Fantasy is... Final Fantasy. Let's just leave it at that.

Also, for anybody who cares, today's my birthday.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Final Fantasy is... Final Fantasy. Let's just leave it at that.

Also, for anybody who cares, today's my birthday.

Happy Birthday! Hope today your dreams will come true.

 

[CannonStreak]

Final Fantasy is... Final Fantasy. Let's just leave it at that.

Also, for anybody who cares, today's my birthday.

Happy birthday! May it be a good one!

 

[RileyXY1]

It wasn’t really stinginess though. It was more so just complicated copyrights since Square Music is usually owned by the composer, and the Character Designs are sometimes owned by that person, which is definitely the case with Dragon Quest considering Toriyama. Not sure about Final Fantasy though. Still doesn’t mean that Sony Ownership would make the process any less complicated.

There's also the fact that new SE content is only added through DLC. And it's not just Smash. This has happened in other cases like Noctis's appearance in Tekken 7 and 2B's appearance in Soul Calibur 6.

 

[fogbadge]

Final Fantasy is... Final Fantasy. Let's just leave it at that.

Also, for anybody who cares, today's my birthday.

how old are you?

 

[JOJONumber691]

There's also the fact that new SE content is only added through DLC. And it's not just Smash. This has happened in other cases like Noctis's appearance in Tekken 7 and 2B's appearance in Soul Calibur 6.

Yeah. Cloud in Ultimate was probably an exception made at the last minute since he was probably one of the hardest characters to add.

 

[chocolatejr9]

how old are you?

23. Though some days I feel like I'm in my 30s...

 

[fogbadge]

23. Though some days I feel like I'm in my 30s...

trust me when you reach your 30s that feeling will seem quaint

 

[Diddy Kong]

trust me when you reach your 30s that feeling will seem quaint

Depends, am fitter now at age 31 than I was at age 23. But yeah, get this age first and see for yourself

Also it was a surprisingly good argument that Sora could return a second time, because nowhere is it implied the second time would be harder than a first time here.

Arguments about usage of guns also got interesting. I don't care about either the gun rule or the return of Sora all that much honestly, but still, enjoyable reads.

Just a quick question here to stir things differently a bit, if you had to include another Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem character, who'd you pick? Seeing as there are always newcomers from these series (almost) with each game, they're are almost inevitable. Might as well have fun with the possibilities.

I'd choose:

Captain Toad
Garchomp
Dimitri

 

[Chuderz]

Any company with current representation in Smash that Sony could potentially acquire would most likely be less of an issue if Nintendo wasn't pigheaded stupid and decided for seemingly no reason whatsoever to not play ball at EVO. It would have been the beginning of establishing a solid relationship (queue the inevitable swarm of blind Nintendofan loyalists pontificating about how so massively awesome Nintendo is that they don't need a good relationship with Sony cuz reasons) with Sony which would not only make both parties money and highlight their game at massive e-sport event (and establish better offers and relationships with the organizers/advertisers/promoters of other e-sport events likely helping in establishing their own first-party circuits in the future) but they'd (Nintendo) would be in a better position to future-proof this risk from harming Smash in anyway. Oh and potentially getting a couple of choice Sony characters like Kratos and Sackboy for the game. Oh and establish a better foundation for future crossplay functionality. Oh and further solidified the platform fighter as a reputable player in the wider fighting game community. Just all that really.

 

[Perkilator]

Just a quick question here to stir things differently a bit, if you had to include another Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem character, who'd you pick? Seeing as there are always newcomers from these series (almost) with each game, they're are almost inevitable. Might as well have fun with the possibilities.

I'd choose:

Captain Toad
Garchomp
Dimitri

Assuming I was rewriting history here:

1. Waluigi over Piranha Plant
2. Meowth over Jigglypuff
3. Azura over Corrin

 

[fogbadge]

Depends, am fitter now at age 31 than I was at age 23. But yeah, get this age first and see for yourself

Also it was a surprisingly good argument that Sora could return a second time, because nowhere is it implied the second time would be harder than a first time here.

Arguments about usage of guns also got interesting. I don't care about either the gun rule or the return of Sora all that much honestly, but still, enjoyable reads.

Just a quick question here to stir things differently a bit, if you had to include another Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem character, who'd you pick? Seeing as there are always newcomers from these series (almost) with each game, they're are almost inevitable. Might as well have fun with the possibilities.

I'd choose:

Captain Toad
Garchomp
Dimitri

toad, typholsion and claude

 

[Diddy Kong]

Assuming I was rewriting history here:

1. Waluigi over Piranha Plant
2. Meowth over Jigglypuff
3. Azura over Corrin

Not to rewrite history but to have as actual newcomers.

I also fail to see why Azura would be picked over Corrin, Corrin is the protagonist of FE Fates not Azura. The others are solid choices.

 

[Laniv]

Depends, am fitter now at age 31 than I was at age 23. But yeah, get this age first and see for yourself

Also it was a surprisingly good argument that Sora could return a second time, because nowhere is it implied the second time would be harder than a first time here.

Arguments about usage of guns also got interesting. I don't care about either the gun rule or the return of Sora all that much honestly, but still, enjoyable reads.

Just a quick question here to stir things differently a bit, if you had to include another Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem character, who'd you pick? Seeing as there are always newcomers from these series (almost) with each game, they're are almost inevitable. Might as well have fun with the possibilities.

I'd choose:

Captain Toad
Garchomp
Dimitri

Toad, Genesect, and Tiki

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Just a quick question here to stir things differently a bit, if you had to include another Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem character, who'd you pick? Seeing as there are always newcomers from these series (almost) with each game, they're are almost inevitable. Might as well have fun with the possibilities.

I'd choose:

Captain Toad
Garchomp
Dimitri

Over the years I've come up with so many silly troll ideas for the latter two. Shoutouts to Spinda and Jake as a ballistician. I don't know that I would go with any of them seriously, but there's a lot of fun options if we're willing to go out of the way to get them.

Now for my serious, but super wishy-washy response.

Mario: I'm going to say plain ol' Toad. I wouldn't mind if they did Captain Toad instead, with the easier moveset and all, but my heart goes with the original.

Pokemon: I don't know the Switch era of Pokemon at all, so I'd go back and pick something like Alolan Marowak or Grovyle. There are a lot of good options, though, and new Pokemon are almost always good additions in terms of gameplay. I was toying with the idea of something like Pangoro (who would probably just be a big brawling bear) or Accelgor (who could be a more ground-based ninja archetype), but I think they're a little harder to justify in a huge roster that already sort of covers what they would do.

Fire Emblem: On a general representation level, I think Anna would be a fantastic fit, especially if she was an archer and had some sort of money mechanic. For gameplay, I like the idea of Takumi, since he has a lot of stuff to work with compared to most archers. If I was just going on what characters I like, I'd pick Dimitri, Brady, or Owain. I have some other favorites, but not many of them would offer anything really unique in their gameplay. Like, does anyone really want to see generic spy, uh.. thief, Matthew? I love the guy, but he's just a man with a knife.