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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Guynamednelson

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Yes. And this is coming from someone whose MW list is like 90% third parties.

People like to say that Smash fans just stare at the CSS. I don't think this started with the influx of third parties, but it was certainly intensified. The other day I was watching Maximillian Dood's trailer retrospective and just the way he talks about Nintendo picks in general compared to third parties says it all. This isn't a dig at him, but I feel like there's a lot more people now who are in it just "for the spectacle of the ride" than there were a few games ago.

Also, I kinda dispute the claim that it made people more open to less talked-about choices. Games like Phantasy Star and League of Legends only started being taken seriously after fake leaks, and most "smaller" third parties ended up being buried beneath picks like Dante, Crash and Master Chief. It's easy to say that people are open here, because in niche places like this we get fans of a lot of different series talking about their hobbies, but if you go to Youtube or Twitter you'd see the same "top 10 most likely" lists being repeated over and over.

At the end of the day, I'll never not be glad we got the picks we did and especially the ending we did. But I'm a bit worried that people will start taking it for granted, especially given how much Sakurai has emphasized that it was a tremendous undertaking. Hell, when it comes to big japanese third parties we could get next time, we have most of the top 20 franchises already in Smash. So unless they really go all out with western IPs (which I doubt), you could count the amount of remaining juggernauts in one hand or so.

So... ultimately, I feel like Smash has backed itself into a corner - and this is by no means because of the development team, but rather because fans' expectations have skyrocketed and hype culture has pretty much become synonymous with Smash reveals, to the point where anything that isn't a huge social-media breaking third party or a decade-long third party request is seen as a negative by a lot of people.
It's a huge, huge, huge shame that Sakurai did not take any moment in FP2 to prove that "it's important that a character is fun to play, not just recognizable". Unfortunately, he didn't have time to, as he was revisiting ideas he/Nintendo were holding on to for years but had to be put on the backburner for various reasons.
 

Trevenant

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Yeah Everyone is here is very likely just a one and done thing lol. Sakurai pretty much said working with all these companies again in the future is practically an impossibility and I can see that. I don't think many people think it has to be the case so much as they are looking at it through rose tinted glasses lol as I've seen people in different places say. Everyone returning was meant to be a surprise, if it happens again, great but going out expecting it or even thinking it's likely is setting expectations way too high. Possibility, yes, a cool one, yes, likely, hell no.

They'd probably just think they may as well spend the effort towards an actual new game instead of just going back to get everyone in an Ultimate port, which is the only feasible way this happens. We're certainly not getting smash 4 levels of new content with Ultimate levels of fanservice with veterans and newcomers lol. Any proposal for a clause in a contract for a future smash game seems to be more of a way to make it seem likely as it's completely unfounded, and admittedly, not likely partially due to that. Everyone is here was a marketing tagline just to show Ultimate's fanservice, and by extension, all the hard work it took to even make it a possibility. It's certainly not marketing suicide when it was never applied to the whole franchise and was 99% a one and done thing to begin with.
 
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Guynamednelson

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an Ultimate port, which is the only feasible way this happens.
Even then, ports are usually going to have a smaller budget than an all-new game, which is why Nocturne HD did not Feature Dante from the Devil May Cry™ Series unless you paid extra. And Dante's only ONE guest character.
 
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Rie Sonomura

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My general idea: A port of Ultimate would be uninteresting, especially with no substantial single player content. A reboot could refine a lot, but alienate audiences for leaving a lot out. My thinking: do a crossover. Nintendo VS CAPCOM, SEGA, Shonen Jump, Disney, whoever. Project Smash X Zone, or Nintendo VS Everyone Else [everyone else in video games, anyways] even. The expectations would be different than for a straight-up/regular Smash 6, you could refine/rework the Nintendo half while keeping the hype crossover fact that's made Smash continue to get bigger and bigger. Maybe this idea is also unpopular rather than just doing Smash 6, but it's a thought I've kept having.
Project Smash X Zone
say no more, I’m sold :awesome:
 

Hydreigonfan01

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I highly doubt an Ultimate port with "Everyone is Here AGAIN" because of the difficulty with licensing all third parties, who knows what could change in relationships 6 years down the line.

Then again, I also truly believed Sora would never happen and I was basically convinced of that, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.
 

Aligo

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Yeah Everyone is here is very likely just a one and done thing lol. Sakurai pretty much said working with all these companies again in the future is practically an impossibility and I can see that. I don't think many people think it has to be the case so much as they are looking at it through rose tinted glasses lol. Everyone returning was meant to be a surprise, if it happens again, great but going out expecting it or even thinking it's likely is setting expectations way too high. Possibility, yes, a cool one, yes, likely, hell no.

They'd probably just think they may as well spend the effort towards an actual new game instead of just going back to get everyone in an Ultimate port, which is the only feasible way this happens. We're certainly not getting smash 4 levels of new content with Ultimate levels of fanservice with veterans and newcomers lol. Any kind of clause in a contract for a future smash game seems to be more of a way to make it seem likely as it's completely unfounded, and admittedly, not likely. Everyone is here was a marketing tagline just to show Ultimate's fanservice, and by extension, all the hard work it took to even make it a possibility. It's certainly not marketing suicide when it was never applied to the whole franchise and was 99% a one and done thing to begin with.
Even if not all characters return, I doubt there will be dramatic losses or anything. The only real reason characters seem to get cut is due to time constraints, mechanical issues or licensing issues. The second one is unlikely to be an issue as the next smash will be on a more powerful console. They will probably also have a much longer time span to work on it too, as they don't need to account for a failed console. That leaves only the third method being particularly problematic.
 

Guynamednelson

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The second one is unlikely to be an issue as the next smash will be on a more powerful console. They will probably also have a much longer time span to work on it too
Except Ultimate already was in development for longer than Smash 4, and if the more powerful console makes the Wii U models seem outdated, they're going to need to spend time making new models that are acceptable for the new console, making bringing back everyone even more of a chore.
 

Aligo

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Except Ultimate already was in development for longer than Smash 4, and if the more powerful console makes the Wii U models seem outdated, they're going to need to spend time making new models that are acceptable for the new console, making bringing back everyone even more of a chore.
Some of the load can be lightened by using existing models as was done in fp2 for pyra and min min ( those can also just be upscaled for next game as they were downscaled for ult). It is a very good point though. Speaking of updated models, shulk really needs an upgrade as his current model looks a bit off.
 

Guynamednelson

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Some of the load can be lightened by using existing models as was done in fp2 for pyra and min min ( those can also just be upscaled for next game as they were downscaled for ult).
I guess, but one reason why Everyone Is Here was possible was due to the Switch not being more powerful enough to warrant brand new models for every fighter. You could say the same about the Wii vs. the Gamecube, but Melee's models were crude enough to justify new models anyway.
 

Gengar84

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Yes. And this is coming from someone whose MW list is like 90% third parties.

People like to say that Smash fans just stare at the CSS. I don't think this started with the influx of third parties, but it was certainly intensified. The other day I was watching Maximillian Dood's trailer retrospective and just the way he talks about Nintendo picks in general compared to third parties says it all. This isn't a dig at him, but I feel like there's a lot more people now who are in it just "for the spectacle of the ride" than there were a few games ago.

Also, I kinda dispute the claim that it made people more open to less talked-about choices. Games like Phantasy Star and League of Legends only started being taken seriously after fake leaks, and most "smaller" third parties ended up being buried beneath picks like Dante, Crash and Master Chief. It's easy to say that people are open here, because in niche places like this we get fans of a lot of different series talking about their hobbies, but if you go to Youtube or Twitter you'd see the same "top 10 most likely" lists being repeated over and over.

At the end of the day, I'll never not be glad we got the picks we did and especially the ending we did. But I'm a bit worried that people will start taking it for granted, especially given how much Sakurai has emphasized that it was a tremendous undertaking. Hell, when it comes to big japanese third parties we could get next time, we have most of the top 20 franchises already in Smash. So unless they really go all out with western IPs (which I doubt), you could count the amount of remaining juggernauts in one hand or so.

So... ultimately, I feel like Smash has backed itself into a corner - and this is by no means because of the development team, but rather because fans' expectations have skyrocketed and hype culture has pretty much become synonymous with Smash reveals, to the point where anything that isn't a huge social-media breaking third party or a decade-long third party request is seen as a negative by a lot of people.
I try to do my part to promote less talked about games on here. I agree that it does get tiring hearing the same names over and over again from a lot of people. That’s the reason I stopped watching Delzethen’s videos despite being really well made. If I’m remembered for anything around here, I hope it’s my love for lesser known or discussed choices. I try my best to bring up interesting overlooked characters without putting down anyone with more mainstream most wanted characters like Master Chief or Crash.

Maybe it’s just my personality, but I never really tend to follow the popular opinion on a lot of things and just tend to root for my personal favorites whether they are popular or not. The same goes for most other things in my life, I’ve never really been someone who cares much about popular trends.
 
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AlRex

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You don't say?


For real though, a Nintendo vs Capcom wouldn't be Smash Bros, it'd be "Nintendo vs Capcom." That's the issue here, Smash has a solidified identity, and the ideas you brought up are just blatantly different games.
Well, yes, Smash is a crossover already, of course. And I bring up that a Nintendo VS someone else would be a separate thing. They could even play similarly, but they could bring a differing perspective on what to do with a Nintendo fighter and give a break from a mainline entry that's more straight-forward.
 

Rie Sonomura

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In regards to hype culture, I've said it before and I'll say it again. If people go into the base game speculation of the next Smash game with the same mindset and expectation as Ultimate's DLC they will be heavily disappointed.
What do you mean? You mean as in terms of the “community picks” like Crash, Hayabusa, Geno, Monster Hunter and the like?
 
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Michael the Spikester

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In regards to hype culture, I've said it before and I'll say it again. If people go into the base game speculation of the next Smash game with the same mindset and expectation as Ultimate's DLC they will be heavily disappointed.
Waluigi, Octoling, Gen 9/10 Pokemon, Xenoblade 3 protagonist, and Akira Howard are the only ones I feel are almost certain for the next game. Waluigi especially.
 
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osby

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What do you mean? You mean as in terms of the “community picks” like Crash, Hayabusa, Geno, Monster Hunter and the like?
As in people were so obsessed with each subsequent reveal "having to" overhype all the previous ones, they were starting to look down on any character smaller than Sora, Crash, and Master Chief before the former was revealed.

This mindset paid off in a way but there's no way the next Smash is going to fill the base game with super big guest characters and not, you know, Nintendo characters.
 

Guynamednelson

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What do you mean? You mean as in terms of the “community picks” like Crash, Hayabusa, Geno, Monster Hunter and the like?
The base game is not going to have the same third-party focus, and that'll be saved for DLC so third-parties get more money.
 

Geno Boost

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Star Hill. Why do you ask?
Which characters we don’t have it playable yet would you say it brings a whole different big gaming community to smash
Someone like Steve does it
 
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3BitSaurus

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It's a huge, huge, huge shame that Sakurai did not take any moment in FP2 to prove that "it's important that a character is fun to play, not just recognizable". Unfortunately, he didn't have time to, as he was revisiting ideas he/Nintendo were holding on to for years but had to be put on the backburner for various reasons.
To be fair, if he could go for both, that would be a good thing. But I get what you mean, not every character is gonna be a huge gamebreaker.

I try to do my part to promote less talked about games on here. I agree that it does get tiring hearing the same names over and over again from a lot of people. That’s the reason I stopped watching Delzethen’s videos despite being really well made. If I’m remembered for anything around here, I hope it’s my love for lesser known or discussed choices. I try my best to bring up interesting overlooked characters without putting down anyone with more mainstream most wanted characters like Master Chief or Crash.

Maybe it’s just my personality, but I never really tend to follow the popular opinion on a lot of things and just tend to root for my personal favorites whether they are popular or not. The same goes for most other things in my life, I’ve never really been someone who cares much about popular trends.
Well, I didn't intend to dunk on any characters, and I'm not one to get tired of any popular picks just for being popular. I'm just saying that over time, hype culture pretty much makes speculation streamline into about 10 to 20 picks, at least on Youtube and Twitter. There's the occasional flavor of the week due to a new release or fake leak, but overall every cycle along Ultimate was kinda plagued with this - not just Volume 2.

In regards to hype culture, I've said it before and I'll say it again. If people go into the base game speculation of the next Smash game with the same mindset and expectation as Ultimate's DLC they will be heavily disappointed.
I'd go even further. Even DLC for future Smash isn't going to be the same as Ultimate, expectations-wise. We got a bunch of big names and franchises, one of them being the Ballot's most voted. Not many places to go from here if you're only focused on reveal hype.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Here's an honest question.

Why is it that Master Cheif became a big fan request, but none of Sony's characters really have?
 

Shroob

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I......... honestly don't have too many fond memories of Smash 4 tbh.


Like, aside from the Megaman reveal, I can't really recall a time during that era where I felt super 'excited' for Smash, which is weird, because Ultimate got me sky high with hype.


Maybe it's due to how..... I dunno, safe, Smash 4 felt? Like, from almost day 1, we had Gematsu, and up until Lucina/Robin, Gematsu was THE discussion point, and shortly after Lucina/Robin, we had Ninkarose, ESRB+Mother****ing leaker and Tower of Smash, and it just doesn't feel like discussion got CRAZY like it could this time?

Like, it's not lost on me that Ultimate had more "leaks" than any prior Smash game combined, but I guess it just feels.... different? It's hard to describe.
 

Wunderwaft

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Here's an honest question.

Why is it that Master Cheif became a big fan request, but none of Sony's characters really have?
Chief is seen as more realistic, especially after Microsoft's trademark is now seen in Smash. Discussion and support for a character changes depending on their likelihood. For example, no one talked about Banjo in a serious or extensive manner until Phil posted that tweet during the ballot.


But I will say that I do wish in the next game we get Kratos, even though it'll never happen.
 

osby

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Here's an honest question.

Why is it that Master Cheif became a big fan request, but none of Sony's characters really have?
Beats me but maybe it has something to do with Nintendo fans having a fiercer console rivalry with Sony fans? It's almost to a point where Smash fans love (thrash) talking about PSASBR more than PlayStation fans at this point.

It may something to do with Smash already having Microsoft content but then again, Steve and Banjo were still bigger requests than any Sony character.
 

Shroob

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Beats me but maybe it has something to do with Nintendo fans having a fiercer console rivalry with Sony fans? It's almost to a point where Smash fans love (thrash) talking about PSASBR more than PlayStation fans at this point.

It may something to do with Smash already having Microsoft content but then again, Steve and Banjo were still bigger requests than any Sony character.
Let's not beat around the bush.

Everyone likes dunking on PSASBR.
 

Rie Sonomura

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I......... honestly don't have too many fond memories of Smash 4 tbh.


Like, aside from the Megaman reveal, I can't really recall a time during that era where I felt super 'excited' for Smash, which is weird, because Ultimate got me sky high with hype.


Maybe it's due to how..... I dunno, safe, Smash 4 felt? Like, from almost day 1, we had Gematsu, and up until Lucina/Robin, Gematsu was THE discussion point, and shortly after Lucina/Robin, we had Ninkarose, ESRB+Mother****ing leaker and Tower of Smash, and it just doesn't feel like discussion got CRAZY like it could this time?

Like, it's not lost on me that Ultimate had more "leaks" than any prior Smash game combined, but I guess it just feels.... different? It's hard to describe.
Wasn’t Tower of Smash the one that said if you linked the 3DS data to Wii U you’d get a few exclusive characters? So dumb lmao
 

Swamp Sensei

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I......... honestly don't have too many fond memories of Smash 4 tbh.


Like, aside from the Megaman reveal, I can't really recall a time during that era where I felt super 'excited' for Smash, which is weird, because Ultimate got me sky high with hype.


Maybe it's due to how..... I dunno, safe, Smash 4 felt? Like, from almost day 1, we had Gematsu, and up until Lucina/Robin, Gematsu was THE discussion point, and shortly after Lucina/Robin, we had Ninkarose, ESRB+Mother****ing leaker and Tower of Smash, and it just doesn't feel like discussion got CRAZY like it could this time?

Like, it's not lost on me that Ultimate had more "leaks" than any prior Smash game combined, but I guess it just feels.... different? It's hard to describe.
I dunno. All those things you just said were really fun.
 

7NATOR

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Yes. And this is coming from someone whose MW list is like 90% third parties.

People like to say that Smash fans just stare at the CSS. I don't think this started with the influx of third parties, but it was certainly intensified. The other day I was watching Maximillian Dood's trailer retrospective and just the way he talks about Nintendo picks in general compared to third parties says it all. This isn't a dig at him, but I feel like there's a lot more people now who are in it just "for the spectacle of the ride" than there were a few games ago.

Also, I kinda dispute the claim that it made people more open to less talked-about choices. Games like Phantasy Star and League of Legends only started being taken seriously after fake leaks, and most "smaller" third parties ended up being buried beneath picks like Dante, Crash and Master Chief. It's easy to say that people are open here, because in niche places like this we get fans of a lot of different series talking about their hobbies, but if you go to Youtube or Twitter you'd see the same "top 10 most likely" lists being repeated over and over.

At the end of the day, I'll never not be glad we got the picks we did and especially the ending we did. But I'm a bit worried that people will start taking it for granted, especially given how much Sakurai has emphasized that it was a tremendous undertaking. Hell, when it comes to big japanese third parties we could get next time, we have most of the top 20 franchises already in Smash. So unless they really go all out with western IPs (which I doubt), you could count the amount of remaining juggernauts in one hand or so.

So... ultimately, I feel like Smash has backed itself into a corner - and this is by no means because of the development team, but rather because fans' expectations have skyrocketed and hype culture has pretty much become synonymous with Smash reveals, to the point where anything that isn't a huge social-media breaking third party or a decade-long third party request is seen as a negative by a lot of people.
This is what happens when Smash tries to get more and more people from different audiences outside of Nintendo, or Outside Nintendo First Party. In any case, I think people are going into Smash 6 with more Pessimistic views to be honest. I don't the Expectations are Skyrocketed for Smash 6 like it was for Smash DLC, because people are looking at Ultimate as the last of the "Golden Age". People may still want premium 3rd party characters for Smash 6, but they don't expect it, at least Base game. At least there are characters like Waluigi that people will be excited for though that they expect will be in Smash 6

Though I'm gonna be real honest, If Smash 6 does have cuts, I actually expect it Mostly, or even solely on the 1st party Side, for Balancing or Time constraint reasons The 3rd Party Inclusions have brought so much Opportunity to the Smash franchise, and is a big Reason that Smash Ultimate became the best-selling Fighting game of all time by almost 10 Million Copies. Compare the fact that Smash Ultimate sold more than Sword and Shield on a Bigger Install Base, when Sun and Moon sold millions more than Smash 3DS back on 3DS

I think Nintendo would be more willing to spend Licensing fees on the 3rd parties, and any Upcoming ones because they know that 3rd parties blew up the Franchise in notoriety. They did it for NSO Online Expansion after all. I also think they know that the Crossover nature doesn't just come to anyone one, and the fact we have Companies from all over being interested in Smash, Primarily after Ultimate, I don't think Nintendo would want to waste that chance.

Here's an honest question.

Why is it that Master Cheif became a big fan request, but none of Sony's characters really have?

Master Chief is Realistic, especially with 2 Microsoft characters in the Game. Sony isn't Realistic (Not Impossible mind you though)
 

Ivander

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Here's an honest question.

Why is it that Master Cheif became a big fan request, but none of Sony's characters really have?
I think it's mostly because of Banjo and Steve. Master Chief was considered impossible due to Microsoft, but because Microsoft allowed Banjo and Steve, Master Chief was seen as a big possibility and became a big request.

It's no mistake that earlier on, Sony was rather negative when it came to cross-play and content they wanted exclusive to their system and only lately have they been opening up, with even putting some of their games on PC. And after all, Kratos(and possibly Aloy) can be gotten on the other console versions of Fortnite, including the Switch.

But I think until Sony actually allows a character in Smash, I wouldn't put into high hopes into a Sony character.
---
But that said, part of the requesting for Crash Bandicoot is because of him being Sony's platformer mascot early on and with even the "rivalry" deal with Nintendo. Heck, many see him more as a Sony character than an Activision character, for one reason or another.
 
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Shroob

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I dunno. All those things you just said were really fun.
Was it really though?


Like, back then, you weren't really allowed to go out of line in discussion since, "Well Gematsu's real, there's no way they could have guessed Wii Fit Trainer", and even characters like Rosalina who weren't part of the leak were just thrown in as "Well it didn't say ALL the characters!"


And I dunno, but I hated the ESRB leak. It made the Shulk/Duck Hunt/Bowser Jr reveals feel less interesting because "Oh right, this leaked."
 

Swamp Sensei

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Was it really though?


Like, back then, you weren't really allowed to go out of line in discussion since, "Well Gematsu's real, there's no way they could have guessed Wii Fit Trainer", and even characters like Rosalina who weren't part of the leak were just thrown in as "Well it didn't say ALL the characters!"


And I dunno, but I hated the ESRB leak. It made the Shulk/Duck Hunt/Bowser Jr reveals feel less interesting because "Oh right, this leaked."
Eh. It's better than months of...

"Who could be in?"

"I don't know."
 
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