Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

That said, I wouldn’t complain about an Armorouge/Ceruledge duo even if it doesn’t make the most sense. I like both Pokemon and Ceruledge is one of my favorites.

I'm with you. I'd take as they're both great. but this current rumour reminds me of that pre smash 4 one that said we were getting the sidekick from yoshi's woolly world who it turned out didn't exist

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

To play devil's advocate:

• Both are connected by being evolved forms of Charcadet possesed by different armor.
• They share similar aesthetics, and the idea of a regal and noble warrior and an edgy and resentful one is a pretty compelling duo.
• Their skillsets complement each other, with one having a cannon as a weapon, and the other having dual swords.
• Their skeletons would be pretty similar, so basing them off of each other wouldn't be too hard. It wouldn't be quite as much of a copy/paste job as with Pyra/Mythra, but it would still be easier to do than something like Pokémon Trainer or Zelda/Sheik.
• They may not be tied to a trainer, and without creative liberties you can't have them turn into each other, but there's more than one way to do a swap animation. You could have the swap move be an attack where the current character sets off a big burst of flame that obscures them, turns the other color, and then disperses to reveal the other character. If you wanted to show more explicitly that they aren't turning into each other, you could have the one you're not playing as show up in taunts, or show the character you are controlling jump out of play when you swap.

Now would they actually do this? No idea, and I'd lean toward "no", but I think it is one that works conceptually.

EDIT: Looking it up, both Armorouge and Ceruledge learn Ally Switch, so there's actually a pretty easy explanation on how they swap.

Honestly, lots of genuinely decent points here - and I say this as someone who (conceptually, in a vacuum) thinks the pair could be pretty cool together. In fact, I'm with Gengar84 in that I think transformation characters can actually be decent when done well - either because the character/characters in question would work really well with it, or because it's a genuinely interesting mechanic to play around with based on the tools each "side" has access to.

I just wouldn't want the transforming concept to become oversaturated to the point of feeling like a gimmick you can just throw onto basically any character, y'know? At least if you limited it to Pokemon Trainer and Pyra/Mythra, they each bring their own flair on the take. Not that I'd complain if Armorouge and Ceruledge were added as a transformation character of some kind, though - they're undeniably pretty cool, and I'm sure they could absolutely lend to an interesting moveset - just... I'm not too sure of their chances.

...and hey, we could always get blindsided by a Gen 10 evolved starter or something. Heh.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

About that rumor, here's what it says:

All fighters from Ultimate return, with some modifications. Link now has some of his abilities from Tears of the Kingdom, Samus has the Dash from Metroid Dread, and Cloud's moveset is modified to represent the recent remakes. In terms of designs, DK is now based on the movie version (which given what we've seen of the new Mario Kart game wouldn't be surprising), Ganondorf now uses his TOTK design, Ryu and Ken now use their SF6 designs, and Bayonetta now uses her Bayonetta 3 design.
The stage roster is severely cut down, and there are now only 50-55 stages.
Art style is mostly the same as Ultimate, but with improved lighting and more expressive facial expressions.
Trophies will make their return after being absent from Ultimate.
Adventure Mode has lots of cutscenes like Brawl, but plays similarly to WOL with the World Map and Spirit fights.
The newcomers in the base roster are Waluigi, Toon Zelda, Noah and Mio, Armarouge/Ceruledge (apparently they're gonna be another transformation fighter like the Aegis), and Sol Badguy. Paper Mario is gonna be added in a similar way to Piranha Plant. They also listed Crash Bandicoot's name, but it's crossed out.

Aside from the obvious (all characters coming back while also being reworked alongside new designs, new moves, cutscenes in an adventure mode, and the return of trophies all of which would be an absolute TON of effort)...

"Sakurai, Zelda hasn't had a new character since Brawl! We should add someone like Skull Kid or Midna or--"
"TOON ZELDA."
"Wh-What?"
"TOON ZELDA, TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT."

 

[Gengar84]

Ceruledge actually has a pretty decent role in the current anime as it’s the main pokemon used by the primary antagonist. I like a lot of the changes they’re doing with this show and it has a largely enjoyable cast but Roy and Fuecoco definitely get on my nerves. It’s a shame because I had a lot of hope when I first saw Fuecoco and chose it as my starter but I was pretty let down by its evolutions and voice in the anime.

 

[fogbadge]

Ceruledge actually has a pretty decent role in the current anime as it’s the main pokemon used by the primary antagonist. I like a lot of the changes they’re doing with this show and it has a largely enjoyable cast but Roy and Fuecoco definitely get on my nerves. It’s a shame because I had a lot of hope when I first saw Fuecoco and chose it as my starter but I was pretty let down by its evolutions and voice in the anime.

well gengar after years of living in peace I’m afraid I’m going to have to bring war for that slight against Roy and Fuecoco

 

[chocolatejr9]

Aside from the obvious (all characters coming back while also being reworked alongside new designs, new moves, cutscenes in an adventure mode, and the return of trophies all of which would be an absolute TON of effort)...

"Sakurai, Zelda hasn't had a new character since Brawl! We should add someone like Skull Kid or Midna or--"
"TOON ZELDA."
"Wh-What?"
"TOON ZELDA, TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT."

You joke, but given the track record I wouldn't be surprised if SOME variant of that convo happened at some point in the series' history...

 

[Gengar84]

well gengar after years of living in peace I’m afraid I’m going to have to bring war for that slight against Roy and Fuecoco

Sorry man, I just can’t stand its voice and I find Roy’s singing kind of annoying. I like all the other characters though. I would say I can’t wait for Fuecoco to evolve but Crocalor is probably my least favorite Pokemon in terms of aesthetics. Still, I think I’ll take that trade for a different voice lol.

 

[NotGenerico]

That 4chan leak is total bogus, but I personally believe that the chances of all characters coming back are being underestimated. It's not a guarantee, but there's a couple of things that are giving me pause.

For starters, Ultimate had a development time of around 34 months. Sakurai's new game began development on April 2022. Right now, it's been worked at for 33 months. I really doubt it'll be a launch title and the earliest I could see it released is this Holiday season. That would mean that this new game will have by far the largest development time of all Smash games. This game is very likely Smash Bros considering Ultimate got random updates last year like that patch that fixed a GSP issue or those 4 Spirit Events. Speaking of which...

There's evidence already of Atlus and Konami coming back thanks to the Spirit Event that had 13 Sentinels and Power Pros Spirits. Considering the timing of it, Sakurai and his team were already developing the next Smash and were able to get the rights for these two games, it likely means that Atlus and Konami are still on board. This makes me think that Joker, Snake and the Belmonts are returning as playable characters.

The developers are very likely to be Bandai Namco again. Ultimate reused many assets from Smash Wii U and I expect the next game to reuse many of Ultimate's assets, making it easier for many characters to return.

Personally, I think a Deluxe version is not happening. It just doesn't make sense to me considering the Switch 2 is backwards compatible. A new game that somehow brings back all the characters? Yeah, I can see that happening.

 

[Will]

The article says the fake leak is 100% fake but also reports it because of an imaginary 1% “it could really be the real deal!!!¡!”

So what’s next, 1% chance of rollback netcode for online play? These next five years are gonna suck

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So what’s next, 1% chance of rollback netcode for online play?

There's a chance?

 

[Will]

There's a chance?

According to gamingbible.com, everyone’s reliable source for gaming content!

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I guess people want Armarouge and ceruledge because they are kinda defacto gen 9 mascots ala Lucario and you cant just exclude one

 

[Will]

I guess people want Armarouge and ceruledge because they are kinda defacto gen 9 mascots ala Lucario and you cant just exclude one

Isn’t every box art Legendary after Gen 3 basically like this? The polar opposite of each other that absolutely can’t be separated, or else the Pokemon universe will fall into disarray and chaos?

 

[Noipoi]

I guess when it comes to exclusives they don’t want to pick one over the other, lest they be accused of playing favorites.

But I’m not sure if anyone cares that much? If they picked Ceruledge over Armorouge or Koraidon over Miraidon, I don’t think there’d be riots in the streets or anything.

 

[Arcanir]

Pokemon Horizons has a Ceruledge as a major recurring Pokemon while Armarouge is still currently MIA with no hint of a potential future appearance. I think if splitting them up was an issue they wouldn't allow one of Pokemon's biggest media to ignore the counterpart for so long, but we're over two years in of one getting preferential treatment so I don't think it's that much of an issue.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I guess people want Armarouge and ceruledge because they are kinda defacto gen 9 mascots ala Lucario and you cant just exclude one

They really aren't anywhere close to comparable to Lucario.
One (Ceruledge) is just a popular Pokémon overall for the Generation.


And you can pick just one. Just like you can pick just one Starter and not include the other two. .

 

[Opossum]

They really aren't anywhere close to comparable to Lucario.
One (Ceruledge) is just a popular Pokémon overall for the Generation.


And you can pick just one. Just like you can pick just one Starter and not include the other two. .

Not only can you just pick one, as they've done, but like...they're not even true version exclusives. Only their evolution items are. You can not only just trade the item over to your preferred version, but you can also just catch the opposite charcoal elemental outright in an online tera raid.

 

[Hypercat-Z]

Totally unrelated: I have had a dream that in the next Smash there were a couple of AT, Ecco The Dolphin and Dural from Virtua Fighter, that, while coming to assist the player, flooded the entire scene for while, making the movements slow for everyone.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Not only can you just pick one, as they've done, but like...they're not even true version exclusives. Only their evolution items are. You can not only just trade the item over to your preferred version, but you can also just catch the opposite charcoal elemental outright in an online tera raid.

This too.

But I honestly don't see version exclusivity being a barrier anyway.
Whenever Meowth is brought up no one ever brings up how the line was version exclusive up until FR/LG.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Personally I think not getting Koraidon or Miraidon would be a missed opportunity. For the first time in a long time, the boxart legendary is actually feasible for a character. And both are pretty popular too. The fact that they have major story significance (more than most legendaries) makes them stand out even more. I'd love one of them.

 

[The Prankster 16]

You joke, but given the track record I wouldn't be surprised if SOME variant of that convo happened at some point in the series' history...

Toon Zelda was actually a character that was worked on for Brawl before being cut, and are considered one of the "forbidden 7" that have data in the game:
Mewtwo (Had a wiimote sound and victory theme)
Roy (Victory theme)
Dr. Mario (The rest of these only have data for their names)
Dixie (Was supposed to be a tag fighter with Diddy)
Toon Zelda (Swapping fighter with...)
Toon Sheik (Possibly was Tetra but could have also been an original design)
pra_mai (Theorized to be the Pokemon Plusle and Minun, though how they would function is unclear)

 

[Gengar84]

Personally I think not getting Koraidon or Miraidon would be a missed opportunity. For the first time in a long time, the boxart legendary is actually feasible for a character. And both are pretty popular too. The fact that they have major story significance (more than most legendaries) makes them stand out even more. I'd love one of them.

Yeah, I’m a big fan of both of them. I slightly prefer Koraidon visually but I like that Miraidon actually uses its wheels. I think I’d slightly lean towards Miraidon for Smash because it’s futuristic design and animations would really stand out compared to the other Pokemon.

 

[BuckleyTim]

It sucks wanting Meowscarada as the gen 9 rep because I just can't fathom the smash team not breaking the established starter pattern at this point.

 

[Idon]

It sucks wanting Meowscarada as the gen 9 rep because I just can't fathom the smash team not breaking the established starter pattern at this point.

At the same time though, they could also just not break that tradition.

People were really outspoken against "Next Fire Emblem protagonist" as being obligatory and yet they were fine with ending the final DLC of the first pass with Byleth. Thank goodness they already announced a 2nd pass prior lol.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Leak season huh?

 

[fogbadge]

I guess when it comes to exclusives they don’t want to pick one over the other, lest they be accused of playing favorites.

But I’m not sure if anyone cares that much? If they picked Ceruledge over Armorouge or Koraidon over Miraidon, I don’t think there’d be riots in the streets or anything.

too late for that the anime is all about scarlet

 

[dream1ng]

If they wanted to implement Armarouge and Ceruledge they could make the character Charcadet and at a certain point in battle you evolve the character. I know people have floated something similar for Eevee, but I think it'd be a lot more feasible when you only have two options - and a character that actually works better in Smash anatomically. Chacadet would presumably be pretty weak where the goal is mostly to get to the point of evolution, then Armarouge is a slower, tankier, turtle-type character, and Ceruledge is a faster, frailer, rushdown type.

I mean, evolving is a central aspect of the series, but Smash doesn't really incorporate it.

Now the logistics, how and when you evolve, whether you reset to Charcadet upon losing a life - which isn't how it works - all that, that's where it gets awkward and necessitates liberties. Hence being the likely reason they haven't done anything like this in the game.

It's by no means a flawless execution. But I think that's at least a little better than Armarouge transforming into Ceruledge and vice-versa. Which is just like... Hitmonchan transforming into Hitmonlee.

 

[Noipoi]

If they wanted to implement Armarouge and Ceruledge they could make the character Charcadet and at a certain point in battle you evolve the character. I know people have floated something similar for Eevee, but I think it'd be a lot more feasible when you only have two options - and a character that actually works better in Smash anatomically. Chacadet would presumably be pretty weak where the goal is mostly to get to the point of evolution, then Armarouge is a slower, tankier, turtle-type character, and Ceruledge is a faster, frailer, rushdown type.

I mean, evolving is a central aspect of the series, but Smash doesn't really incorporate it.

Now the logistics, how and when you evolve, whether you reset to Charcadet upon losing a life - which isn't how it works - all that, that's where it gets awkward and necessitates liberties. Hence being the likely reason they haven't done anything like this in the game.

It's by no means a flawless execution. But I think that's at least a little better than Armarouge transforming into Ceruledge and vice-versa. Which is just like... Hitmonchan transforming into Hitmonlee.

If you started as Charcadet, evolved into either Armarouge or Ceruledge, and then stayed that way for the duration of the match even if you get knocked out, I think that’d be a really interesting mechanic.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If you started as Charcadet, evolved into either Armarouge or Ceruledge, and then stayed that way for the duration of the match even if you get knocked out, I think that’d be a really interesting mechanic.

low key how i imagine Digimon in smash playing out

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

low key how i imagine Digimon in smash playing out

Because that kind of idea works better for a Digimon, since they can Digivolve into stronger forms and De-digivolve back to previous forms, while Pokemon can only go forward, not back.

That's always been my issue with something like Eevee using the Eeveelutions, especially since the Smash games now are made in part by Bandai-Namco who own Digimon as a game franchise lol

 

[dream1ng]

If you started as Charcadet, evolved into either Armarouge or Ceruledge, and then stayed that way for the duration of the match even if you get knocked out, I think that’d be a really interesting mechanic.

It would certainly be the more faithful option. The question is how that scales based on the settings. You would have to be able to evolve within your first life if you were only playing with one life, but if you were playing with, like, 10, then the transformation really doesn't matter for most of the match.

It would probably have to be a percent of the total rather than at a fixed point.

 

[Opossum]

If they wanted to implement Armarouge and Ceruledge they could make the character Charcadet and at a certain point in battle you evolve the character. I know people have floated something similar for Eevee, but I think it'd be a lot more feasible when you only have two options - and a character that actually works better in Smash anatomically. Chacadet would presumably be pretty weak where the goal is mostly to get to the point of evolution, then Armarouge is a slower, tankier, turtle-type character, and Ceruledge is a faster, frailer, rushdown type.

I mean, evolving is a central aspect of the series, but Smash doesn't really incorporate it.

Now the logistics, how and when you evolve, whether you reset to Charcadet upon losing a life - which isn't how it works - all that, that's where it gets awkward and necessitates liberties. Hence being the likely reason they haven't done anything like this in the game.

It's by no means a flawless execution. But I think that's at least a little better than Armarouge transforming into Ceruledge and vice-versa. Which is just like... Hitmonchan transforming into Hitmonlee.

My whole thing with that is just like...why not just cut out the middleman (well, middlemon) at that point? If you're making full movesets for Armarouge and Ceruledge anyway, why do more work by tacking on a third moveset for Charcadet (who would need a significantly different moveset to account for its size and anatomical differences) when you could just...add Armarouge and Ceruledge as separate characters. It's not like they'd need a gimmick to stand out either. A gallant Fire/Psychic knight with an arm cannon and a brooding Fire/Ghost blood knight with two swords for arms do enough on their own to stand out.

The whole idea of tying them together just...complicates things needlessly. They're already standalone fighters right out of the box.

 

[Kirbeh]

If you started as Charcadet, evolved into either Armarouge or Ceruledge, and then stayed that way for the duration of the match even if you get knocked out, I think that’d be a really interesting mechanic.

If you don't revert to Charcader though, that defeats the point of tying all these characters together. The amount of time you actually spend playing as Charcadet would be very little and if you get locked into one evolution anyway, that eliminates the choice that sells the initial concept. Charcadet then goes from being an integral part of the moveset/game plan into an extra step just to get to either of the characters people actually want to play.

Some sort of gradual growth/evolution concept that's split into distinct movesets kind of requires the ability to revert for the work required to be worth it. I'm sure you'd get the odd dedicated Charcadet main here or there that deliberately doesn't evolve but in most cases people will be encouraged to minimize the time they spend as Charcadet. And again, it would mostly be perceived as an annoyance/unnecessary extra step that goes past the CSS and into the match.

At that point I'd rather just have all 3 as separate characters. If there's barely any choice/dynamic actually involved and Charcadet is reduced to a handicap then I don't see the appeal tbh.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Because Pokemon and Final fantasy take a lot from their anime in smash, if Agumon were too happen i'd like for them to put the guitar rift you hear in the anime when he evolves

I think that'd be cool.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Since Digimon and specifically Agumon and evolution have been brought up, might as well post the concept I had for Agumon/WarGreymon months ago.

 

[Kirbeh]

And as a quick addendum to the whole Charcadet/Armarouge/Ceruledge thing, I think you could make a character based on evolution but it'd have to be a normal line rather than a split. Preferably a 3 stage Pokemon so you could more gradually attain each evolution and better justify not reverting between stocks. It'd be a delicate balance but in a 3-4 stock game you'd see hopefully see one evolution per stock (maybe it would scale based on the amount of stocks/time?) with each Pokemon being stronger but not necessarily entirely different moveset wise.

Let's say the base character has Ember, the first evo "evolves" the move into Flame Burst and the second to Fire Blast, etc, etc. The mov itself would be the same projectile but with altered properties and stats at each evolution stage.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Personally I think not getting Koraidon or Miraidon would be a missed opportunity. For the first time in a long time, the boxart legendary is actually feasible for a character. And both are pretty popular too. The fact that they have major story significance (more than most legendaries) makes them stand out even more. I'd love one of them.

I always wanted a Dragon-type in Smash. Even though I played Scarlet, I might pick Miraidon because Koraidon is overdesigned IMO. And it'd be cool to have the dashing animation be the motorcycle mode.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Toon Zelda was actually a character that was worked on for Brawl before being cut, and are considered one of the "forbidden 7" that have data in the game:
Mewtwo (Had a wiimote sound and victory theme)
Roy (Victory theme)
Dr. Mario (The rest of these only have data for their names)
Dixie (Was supposed to be a tag fighter with Diddy)
Toon Zelda (Swapping fighter with...)
Toon Sheik (Possibly was Tetra but could have also been an original design)
pra_mai (Theorized to be the Pokemon Plusle and Minun, though how they would function is unclear)

If I had to guess, Roy and Mewtwo were almost in the same group as Toon Link, Jigglypuff and Wolf. If development was even longer then Mewtwo would presumably been next since it has the most data. Their unused victory theme data is after Jigglypuff but before Toon Link so it’s not an early development cut.

Dr Mario and Toon Zelda/Sheik were briefly developed before anything major.

 

[DynamicSmasher]

I reckon they would just go with Ceruledge if they wanted something from the Characadet family. It's more popular with fans(so far as I can tell), and it's more prominent in the anime, being the main mon of Amethio, who's an antagonist/rival to Liko, the main heroine of Pokemon Horizons. There's some other Gen 9s they could possibly go for as well: the Raidons, Tinkaton and Clodsire all have their fanbases. Of course, the obvious pick would be Meowscarada. Liko picked Sprigatito, and it's the only Gen 9 starter in Unite right now as well. Of course, you could say the same for Decidueye with Pokken, so it's far from guaranteed.

 

[dream1ng]

My whole thing with that is just like...why not just cut out the middleman (well, middlemon) at that point? If you're making full movesets for Armarouge and Ceruledge anyway, why do more work by tacking on a third moveset for Charcadet (who would need a significantly different moveset to account for its size and anatomical differences) when you could just...add Armarouge and Ceruledge as separate characters. It's not like they'd need a gimmick to stand out either. A gallant Fire/Psychic knight with an arm cannon and a brooding Fire/Ghost blood knight with two swords for arms do enough on their own to stand out.

The whole idea of tying them together just...complicates things needlessly. They're already standalone fighters right out of the box.

Because transformation gimmicks result in us getting characters we wouldn't normally given they're a package deal, and if they were separate characters they wouldn't bother adding both.