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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

SMAASH! Puppy

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I had a dream that Heracross :214: was a playable character, except he was always a playable character, since Brawl. Except the reason he was relevant is I was bringing him up as a potential cut. "I know he's popular but he's not the most stand outish Pokémon there is."

When I woke up, I realised the reason we don't talk about Heracross more is because he was never playable to begin with (though he'd be really cool)
The most hilarious part about that is that Heracross would absolutely stand out by virtue of being a bug.

Also a dummy strong back throw and command grab.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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I dunno, the way I see it Ultimate was the time for indie games to get a more prominent role, with all the costumes and the music and the Shovel Knight AT. Now the next step would be to get a whole fighter.

Sometimes you gotta start small and build up to things instead of just jumping in head first.
Not to mention, when you really think about it, who would they replace in the DLC with an indie like Sans or Shantae? Considering the DLC was Persona 5, Dragon Quest, Banjo-Kazooie (who was number 2 on the Ballot), King of Fighters, Minecraft, Sephiroth, Tekken, Kingdom Hearts (the actual ballot winner), and 3 newer Nintendo characters.

Like yeah, Sans and Shantae were popular requests, but I don't know if they can really stack up to that lineup lol
 
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Shinuto

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I want Shantae to be the first indie to join the roster (Steve doesn't count, owned by Microsoft before he was added.) but if she DOES get in, it'll likely be after a Sans and or Shovel Knight reveal.
Not to mention, when you really think about it, who would they replace in the DLC with an indie like Sans or Shantae? Considering the DLC was Persona 5, Dragon Quest, Banjo-Kazooie (who was number 2 on the Ballot), King of Fighters, Minecraft, Sephiroth, Tekken, Kingdom Hearts (the actual ballot winner), and 3 newer Nintendo characters.



Like yeah, Sans and Shantae were popular requests, but I don't know if they can really stack up to that lineup lol
I mean ....Byleth lol Byleth definitely had a sourish response even if they had a decent enough moveset idea
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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I mean ....Byleth lol Byleth definitely had a sourish response even if they had a decent enough moveset idea
I mean sure, I really hated their trailer too even though I love Three Houses and it definitely felt the most promotional of any DLC in Ultimate, but that would've been decided in advance and I don't think higher ups would want to go an entire pass without at least ONE Nintendo character so they're not just spending the whole pass paying other people lol
 

Ivander

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That guy on the DMC social media team probably singlehandedly congealed Dante desire into enough of a force that we got the mii costume in pass 2 as a result. Amazing play for the long-term when you think about it.
Even made a Dante costume for Byleth happen.

Complete with a long-sleeved coat too. :4pacman:
 

Lionfranky

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So... what do you think of characters that are primarily known in the West, but not in Japan where Smash Bros is made?
I ask this because whenever I suggest or I say that Goemon would be a good character addition, there's always people who jump to me saying that he's too niche for western audiences, but then those people ask for characters like Rayman, Lara Croft or someone from Mortal Kombat or a Valve character, forgetting they are pretty much in the same situation but in reverse, and arguably worse since Smash is a japanese game after all.
Personally, I've been more annoyed by reverse argument. "Not popular in Japan"
 

Guynamednelson

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Personally, I've been more annoyed by reverse argument. "Not popular in Japan"
Well it should make sense when the game is developed by Japanese people working for a Japanese company being directed by a Japanese man who works at another Japanese studio for another Japanese company who is publishing the game on their Japanese console/handheld hybrid.
 

Lionfranky

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Well it should make sense when the game is developed by Japanese people working for a Japanese company being directed by a Japanese man who works at another Japanese studio for another Japanese company who is publishing the game on their Japanese console/handheld hybrid.
I know Nintendo and Capcom are different, but Capcom managed to appeal to western audience by incorporating western characters like MVC and Marcus Fenix in Lost Planet for examples. It's not like Nintendo is allergic to western contents. And, I definitely think people are exaggerating Nintendo's bias with this line of thinking.

If low hanging fruits were only things Nintendo going for, we wouldn't have more western contents in Ultimate DLC cycle.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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I know Nintendo and Capcom are different, but Capcom managed to appeal to western audience by incorporating western characters like MVC and Marcus Fenix in Lost Planet for examples. It's not like Nintendo is allergic to western contents. And, I definitely think people are exaggerating Nintendo's bias with this line of thinking.

If low hanging fruits were only things Nintendo going for, we wouldn't have more western contents in Ultimate DLC cycle.
I mean if Takamaru wasn't added to Smash because he doesn't have any western presence and Sakurai has said before that he never would've added Lucas if he knew Mother 3 wasn't coming out in the West, I feel like it only makes sense to assume the inverse is also true, since it's a Japanese-made game for a Japanese market as well.

Also, Gears of War broke into the Japanese top 10 when it debuted in the country in like 2007 which is very impressive when you consider how western shooters typically go in Japan, so I wouldn't really say Gears is a complete unknown or anything.
 
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Kirbeh

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I know Nintendo and Capcom are different, but Capcom managed to appeal to western audience by incorporating western characters like MVC and Marcus Fenix in Lost Planet for examples. It's not like Nintendo is allergic to western contents. And, I definitely think people are exaggerating Nintendo's bias with this line of thinking.

If low hanging fruits were only things Nintendo going for, we wouldn't have more western contents in Ultimate DLC cycle.
I can't speak on Lost Planet as I have no experience with the series, but MvC honestly feels like a pretty bad comparison when it's only a 2 company crossover made specifically because some guys at Capcom were Marvel fans and had already worked with them on previous licensed titles.

It's really not a Nintendo specific bias here, Capcom and just about any other Japanese dev is going to be primarily catering to their home audience. With the same being true for any other dev in any other region. In some cases deliberately but a lot of the time just because that comes naturally.

Capcom is definitely an example of a company that plays with Western ideas and inspiration more than others but it's still very much through a Japanese lens. If you went back and handed off RE or DR to a western studio for example, the end result would be very different from the games we got.

And even then, you look at MVC again and it's still more niche than other titles. It's a blend that caters to a very specific audience despite the seemingly wide appeal on paper.

Moreover, I don't think it's as much an eastern vs western appeal sort of thing for them outside of a few specific cases like Okami or Kunitsugami.

A good game is a good game.

That was a bit long winded on my part and seemingly negative towards western parties' chances but I actually feel the opposite.

Capcom and Nintendo aren't much different in region bias, but I don't think that's really going to stop more western content in Smash.

I think it's pretty clear they make some effort to acknowledge the West's tastes too. It's less a matter of if imo and more a matter of who.

I do feel like it'll be big, but not the biggest, name's that have the better chance here (with some potential exceptions.) There's not as much overlap in audience or brand image with stuff like MK, GTA or COD but I do see the likes of Undertale, The Elder Scrolls, Doom, etc. being on their radar (the Mii costumes come to mind here.)

Stuff that's bigger in the West is certainly possible but at least some level of interest or familiarity on the Japan's part is likely still a big point in an IP's favor.
 

Lionfranky

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I mean if Takamaru wasn't added to Smash because he doesn't have any western presence and Sakurai has said before that he never would've added Lucas if he knew Mother 3 wasn't coming out in the West, I feel like it only makes sense to assume the inverse is also true, since it's a Japanese-made game for a Japanese market as well.

Also, Gears of War broke into the Japanese top 10 when it debuted in the country in like 2007 which is very impressive when you consider how western shooters typically go in Japan, so I wouldn't really say Gears is a complete unknown or anything.
The issue I have with those "hur hur Japan!" argument completely ignores something like that happening in Japan. This is not directed you of course. But, I've encountered people who conveniently forget or ignore how Halo fared in Japan back in day too many times.
 

Speed Weed

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I feel like at the very least Japanese stuff that's bigger in the West is well-established as something that can happen by now, but I'm not sure how it'd go for say, a Mortal Kombat
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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I feel like at the very least Japanese stuff that's bigger in the West is well-established as something that can happen by now, but I'm not sure how it'd go for say, a Mortal Kombat
I think the only example I can think of of something that was like relatively unknown in Japan that happened was Little Mac? I feel like I recall a lot of Japanese players having a "literally who" moment because Punch-Out isn't really anything over there, but that's still a bit different because it's first party lol
 

Speed Weed

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I think the only example I can think of of something that was like relatively unknown in Japan that happened was Little Mac? I feel like I recall a lot of Japanese players having a "literally who" moment because Punch-Out isn't really anything over there, but that's still a bit different because it's first party lol
Duck Hunt I would say is another big example. Not exactly an unknown game over there, but by no means the iconic touchstone of the system that it is over here
 

Thegameandwatch

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I'm not sure how it'd go for say, a Mortal Kombat
I am not exactly sure how well that series could translate into Smash without losing lot of it’s identity. Especially stuff such as fatalities.

Other series have this issue but it’s easier to work around it compared to Mortal Kombat.
 

Ivander

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Smash developers are asked if there's any chance third-party fighters that are huge in the West could come to Smash even if they're obscure in Japan

"...Well, I guess we could put more Sonic characters in down the road, sure."
I think I recall most of the developers of Smash 4 and Ultimate already having experience with developing Tekken, which while Japanese-developed, is alot more popular outside of Japan. If anything, those developers likely have pretty good knowledge of what's popular outside of Japan.

And we need to remember that while Sakurai can be convinced and have different changes to his initial thoughts in regards to characters, like Villager, Pac-Man, Corrin and Ridley, alot of the character choices were specifically chosen by Sakurai for a purpose or direction, like Robin for being a Mage Archetype which Smash has very few of and bringing something unique compared to Chrom which he felt being a Marth/Ike-hybrid would not be interesting enough, or Incineroar being chosen for their Wrestler archetype.
People do need to remember that while Sakurai does take popularity and demand into account, the biggest thing he always takes into account first thing is "how they will play". To someone like him where gameplay is top priority, how will a character play, what can they bring to the table in a giant cast of characters and whatnot will always be very high for when he looks at a character.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I can't speak on Lost Planet as I have no experience with the series, but MvC honestly feels like a pretty bad comparison when it's only a 2 company crossover made specifically because some guys at Capcom were Marvel fans and had already worked with them on previous licensed titles.
I thought he was talking about Marvel Vs. Capcom too and was going to comment on that, but upon rereading it they're talking about a character named MVC. No idea who that is though. All I get when looking it up is people wanting some gundam thing called PTX-40A, who is from Lost Planet, and was in Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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I dunno, the way I see it Ultimate was the time for indie games to get a more prominent role, with all the costumes and the music and the Shovel Knight AT. Now the next step would be to get a whole fighter.

Sometimes you gotta start small and build up to things instead of just jumping in head first.
I don't really see it... They were all treated just like any other collaboration.
Still, of course they can look back at some of those characters and give them an upgraded role, I just really don't think that Sans being an indie character is what stopped him from becoming playable.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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And Doom didn't popularize FPS games at all. Actually it was Wolfenstein 3D that did that.
I didn't know people called FPS games "Wolfen clones"

I am not exactly sure how well that series could translate into Smash without losing lot of it’s identity. Especially stuff such as fatalities.

Other series have this issue but it’s easier to work around it compared to Mortal Kombat.
It's very possible to make a Mortal Kombat character work without "losing the identity"

A Mortal Kombat character can still feel like a Mortal Kombat character even without spraying blood all across the stage as long as the moves look absolutely brutal, something we know isn't out of possibility because look at Ridley's moveset.

It's also something NetherRealm themselves have dabbled in by putting MK characters in Injustice.
 
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The Prankster 16

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Smash developers are asked if there's any chance third-party fighters that are huge in the West could come to Smash even if they're obscure in Japan

"...Well, I guess we could put more Sonic characters in down the road, sure."
That's one of the reasons I only really see Shadow coming in as an echo and I roll my eyes whenever I see some roster with 5 new sonic characters. Nobody gives a **** about Sonic in Japan.
 

Ivander

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I know Mortal Kombat tends to be a sensitive subject in regards to it's violence, but are we really ignoring the fact that characters like Ness, Lucas, Pichu and Isabelle can be impaled and dragged through the ground by Ridley, lariet-ed by Incineroar after throwing them at wrestling ropes, violently eaten by Gomorrah(Bayonetta's Final Smash), roadkilled by Captain Falcon and even get their backs broken by Kazuya?

Like I get being concerned at how a Mortal Kombat character would affect the rating, but we clearly have elephants in the room already in Smash Bros that when you actually think about them, are just as violent if not even more horrific compared to some of the MK characters' Fatalities, let alone their normal moveset. Like you can't convince me that Sub-Zero's Fatality of freezing people than quickly uppercutting them completely destroying them into pieces is somehow more horrific than getting run over by the Blue Falcon or getting violently eaten by Gomorrah.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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I believe I've kracked the code.
Here's what I believe is a very good encapsulation of what the next game's roster is going to look like according to the thread's general consensus.

Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Peach
Daisy
Rosalina
Yoshi
Wario
Waluigi
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Impa
Samus
Ridley
Kirby
Meta Knight
Dedede
Bandana Dee
Fox
Pikachu
Lucario
Greninja
Charizard
Gen 10 Pokémon
Ness
Captain Falcon
Marth
Lucina
Ike
Robin
Byleth
Alear
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game & Watch
Pit
Dark Pit
Palutena
Olimar
Oatchi
ROB
Villager
Isabelle
Tom Nook
Little Mac
Shulk
Pyra/Mythra
Noah
Inkling
Octoling
Ring Fit Trainer
Isaac
Sonic
Shadow
Megaman
Pac-man
Ryu
Ken
Monster Hunter
Sans
Mii Fighters
45 veterans, 13 newcomers, a bunch of echoes and the Mii Fighters.
I tried to keep as many as possible of the most commonly considered safe veterans inside the most commonly deemed likely number of veterans (40 something), and I added the newcomers that are usually seen as particularly likely.

My question is... Would you find something like this actually exciting?
To be perfectly honest, I'm pretty sure I'd kinda hate this.
 

Noipoi

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I believe I've kracked the code.
Here's what I believe is a very good encapsulation of what the next game's roster is going to look like according to the thread's general consensus.

Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Peach
Daisy
Rosalina
Yoshi
Wario
Waluigi
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Link
Zelda
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Impa
Samus
Ridley
Kirby
Meta Knight
Dedede
Bandana Dee
Fox
Pikachu
Lucario
Greninja
Charizard
Gen 10 Pokémon
Ness
Captain Falcon
Marth
Lucina
Ike
Robin
Byleth
Alear
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game & Watch
Pit
Dark Pit
Palutena
Olimar
Oatchi
ROB
Villager
Isabelle
Tom Nook
Little Mac
Shulk
Pyra/Mythra
Noah
Inkling
Octoling
Ring Fit Trainer
Isaac
Sonic
Shadow
Megaman
Pac-man
Ryu
Ken
Monster Hunter
Sans
Mii Fighters
45 veterans, 13 newcomers, a bunch of echoes and the Mii Fighters.
I tried to keep as many as possible of the most commonly considered safe veterans inside the most commonly deemed likely number of veterans (40 something), and I added the newcomers that are usually seen as particularly likely.

My question is... Would you find something like this actually exciting?
To be perfectly honest, I'm pretty sure I'd kinda hate this.
Seems a bit too conservative. We can pump up those numbers a bit while still being realistic. Add back in some characters like Falco and K Rool, to name a few.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Seems a bit too conservative. We can pump up those numbers a bit while still being realistic. Add back in some characters like Falco and K Rool, to name a few.
I would have put Falco, K. Rool, Bayonetta and Jigglypuff in the list if I was gunning for 50 veterans. However 40 seems to be the most commonly suggested number, and those characters are usually considered somewhat likely but not enough to crack the top 40.
 

Louie G.

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My question is... Would you find something like this actually exciting?
To be perfectly honest, I'm pretty sure I'd kinda hate this.
I disagree with some of the sentiments here (distribution of newcomers, certain veterans being absent) so I wouldn't be that happy with this roster, but I don't think I'd automatically be upset with a roster of this size and approach. Just needs some readjusting, and could probably serve to add a few more veterans and I just wish the batch of newcomers was more flavorful. I feel like a lot of the thread has mellowed on Alear and warmed up to more Splatoon, for example.

I'm a bit radical in that I wouldn't mind that much seeing most of the third party guests pruned off. I don't think it will be this extreme personally. But minimizing down to the "elite four" third parties doesn't make me as upset as seeing K. Rool get cut does lol. I think most people here see him returning, as well as Falco and probably another Pokemon (Jigglypuff or Mewtwo). Although you addressed that in the post above this anyway (is 40 really the most common number that you see tossed around?).

I'd actually be kind of curious to run a community poll here to structure what the most currently agreed upon roster is. Taking samples of who people find the most realistic. If I had a little more time on my hands, maybe that'd be something I'd attempt... I'll keep it in the back of my mind.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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(is 40 really the most common number that you see tossed around?)
I'd say so, and also, 50 starts to get dangerously close to Ultimate's 60 veterans which crippled the game's contents so much.

What upsets me the most about the Commonly Speculated Roster is that we'd lose the vast majority of Ultimate's newcomers. Most Smash fans love those characters!
 

Louie G.

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What upsets me the most about the Commonly Speculated Roster is that we'd lose the vast majority of Ultimate's newcomers. Most Smash fans love those characters!
I suppose there's a bit of a skewed sample in play here because like, since all these characters are newer to the series we have less precedent for what to expect of them moving forward. So everyone has different ideas of which third parties remain, and only (near) unanimously agree on the four you have here.

But I haven't really seen any roster recently that condenses third parties down to only these four characters (ignoring the newcomers here). It's just that the extra however many characters on top of these are not super consistent. I think it's safe to assume a number more of Ultimate's newcomers will be returning, and I think the way you put together this roster just automatically kneecaps them. It's not really the "commonly speculated roster" in that sense because it's conservative in a particular way I never see.

The least returning third parties I'll usually see levels out around 6 or so? Any combination of Simon, Banjo, Steve, Hero, Terry and Kazuya are all pretty common and they're all Ultimate newcomers. And again, K. Rool isn't someone most people see getting cut anyway. You did manage to keep most of Ultimate's first party newbies in play otherwise so at least that isn't too much of a factor, but I think it's a bit dishonest to frame this way as if the average speculative roster is counting on us losing ALL of the new third party characters. I don't know if anyone believes that.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Or Pikachu without Thundershock.
Ya know, I genuinely forgot that Thunder Shock was Pikachu's thing in the anime once upon a time...or a move in the game at all. Come to think of it, all of the electric types I've used in the early game were physical attackers, and so get and Spark instead.

Chrom without the Fire Emblem.
Can't speak to Marth, but the Fire Emblem isn't really all that important to Chrom's character. He mainly just wears it as a shield when you promote him to Great Lord, and IIRC, is what gives him to obtain the infinitely cooler 1,000° Falchion.

I would definitely not say "no" to a Great Lord alternate costume for Chrom though, especially if they give it the Awakened Falchion. That would be so cool.

Or Mario without the Ground Pound. Or Ness without PSI Rockin'.
Both of these characters should have these.
 
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