Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

I can say that the ongoing drama with DEI as the current topic. This might be the new potential toxic behavior for specific character requests if another Smash Bros sequel is announced. Not to say anything bad and/or add stress, but the possible toxic fest being worse than Ultimate's DLC cycle.
View attachment 393856

In the end, I usually don't mind the selected character being a fighter.

How many of us have been toxic sir? The far majority of us have been able to discuss the topic with maturity. You can't say "oh this could get toxic," when the majority here just aren't being toxic.

Or is the topic making you uncomfortable? Because that is a different issue entirely. And if so, I have to ask why?

 

[Schnee117]

It's not about whether or not people specifically want Jax. The point is to show why that kind of representation is not seen as a priority in Smash like it is in other fighting games. After all, you did mention Barret, a character from a series that's represented by two non-black characters already. Not once was race ever raised as an issue on that and the reason is very obvious.

Also, it's strange you went into all that about MK, another series that, like SF, FF, TK, VF, is not a crossover Smash is.

I mean, diversity has been a priority for the roster, see the push for more female fighters. It's simply high time to extend that push to other areas where Smash is sorely lacking.

Because being a crossover isn't an excuse for a distinct lack of black people in a roster of 89 characters. If a bunch of fighting game franchises with "goofy" and "weird" character rosters can make room for diversity then, again, what excuse does Smash have?
At a certain point, the lack of diversity is a conscious choice and approaching 100 fighters, one can very much argue that that point is drawing very close.

It's also telling that you refuse to engage with what anyone else is saying. You're not bringing up anything that hasn't already been addressed by someone on this topic.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I can say that the ongoing drama with DEI as the current topic. This might be the new potential toxic behavior for specific character requests if another Smash Bros sequel is announced. Not to say anything bad and/or add stress, but the possible toxic fest being worse than Ultimate's DLC cycle.
View attachment 393856

In the end, I usually don't mind the selected character being a fighter.

I mean, most games with diverse casts made in current year are either garbage or scummy free to play slop so i doubt they would be on the smash teams radar to begin with.

 

[ScrubReborn]

Atp, I think Octoling is your best bet if you want a black character; I imagine their default would be the the dark-skinned variant. But if you discount them 'cause they'd prolly have white alts too, then I'd say it's Marina (prolly as part of a "Off The Hook" team fighter). I feel very good about Off The Hook's odds.

I'm (half) black myself and would embrace black/general POC characters as much as anyone else if they can get good picks, but yeah I gotta echo the common sentiment that the amount of characters Nintendo has that both tick that category and actually have good enough credentials to warrant roster space is... not that high. Better now but still not great. I think Smash 6'll break that pattern but it's not a shock it's been the way it is up to now.

My favorite black pick is Doc Louis, love that man, but alas, they're never giving us another Punch-Out character.

On ResetEra, it kinda was. Just look at how some folk reacted to Min Min getting chosen instead of Twintelle.

I forgot how cringe ResetERA is lol. White guilt the site.

Heck, Pokemon Trainer and Pikachu got female alts retroactively.

Also Spiky eared Chu. She's a girl too, put respecc on her name before she shocks you and hurts herself

 

[NotGenerico]

probably not



didn't somebody say he was massive sterotype?

or am I thinking of someone else?

Not at all, he's just a really cool dude who owns a bar and helps out Bayonetta, his bar serving as the in-game shop. He's also a former Angel and one of the strongest characters in the setting, showing up as an optional super boss on all 3 games.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I mean, diversity has been a priority for the roster, see the push for more female fighters. It's simply high time to extend that push to other areas where Smash is sorely lacking.

Because being a crossover isn't an excuse for a distinct lack of black people in a roster of 89 characters. If a bunch of fighting game franchises with "goofy" and "weird" character rosters can make room for diversity then, again, what excuse does Smash have?
At a certain point, the lack of diversity is a conscious choice and approaching 100 fighters, one can very much argue that that point is drawing very close.

I'll say it again; it's the context of the series. Smash is a supposed to be celebration of video game history. If you want a black character, there's nothing wrong with that. But the lack of a black character shouldn't be held against it because it's their importance to video games is what matters the most, not their race. If there is a black character you can justify for the same reason other characters got in, then there's nothing wrong with that. Just being black is not enough. Same thing for female characters.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

kill two birds with one stone.


Put my girl Shantae in there.

 

[Schnee117]

I'll say it again; it's the context of the series. Smash is a supposed to be celebration of video game history. If you want a black character, there's nothing wrong with that. But the lack of a black character shouldn't be held against it because it's their importance to video games is what matters the most. If there is a black character you can justify for the same reason other characters got in, then there's nothing wrong with that. Just being black is not enough. Same thing for female characters.

We have a Piranha Plant on the roster, Roy, Lucas and Corrin are on the roster. "Importance" hasn't been a real factor for a long while now and it's time to stop using it as another unnecessary hurdle for characters to overcome.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean, most games with diverse casts made in current year are either garbage or scummy free to play slop so i doubt they would be on the smash teams radar to begin with.

There are a lot of things wrong with this statement. I'll focus on one.

No, most games with diverse casts aren't garbage. Baldur's Gate last year was incredibly diverse. Heck Deadlock has one of the most diverse casts in long time and it's getting unanimous praise. There are countless games with diverse casts that are good. We've been talking about them in the thread!!! Like, calling Splatoon, Punch Out!! AND Zelda (to name a few) bad is a real take.

This is like saying that all video games are FPS. Please play more games.

 

[Dinoman96]

Some folks certainly showing their hands in this thread lol

 

[Ivander]

Certain folks certainly showing their hands in this thread lol

Remember when the most heated topic was "So do you think Ridley is too big?" Boy, have times changed.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Some folks certainly showing their hands in this thread lol

Sometimes I feel like I can guess how people vote from the way they discuss Smash.

I dunno how to feel about that.

 

[fogbadge]

Not at all, he's just a really cool dude who owns a bar and helps out Bayonetta, his bar serving as the in-game shop. He's also a former Angel and one of the strongest characters in the setting, showing up as an optional super boss on all 3 games.

alright then

 

[Schnee117]

But as soon as you point out that in a roster of ~90 fighters, there are 0 who are explicitly black, that reason is too shallow or needs to be interrogated.

Quoting this for no particular reason btw

There are a lot of things wrong with this statement. I'll focus on one.

No, most games with diverse casts aren't garbage. Baldur's Gate last year was incredibly diverse. Heck Deadlock has one of the most diverse casts in long time and it's getting unanimous praise. There are countless games with diverse casts that are good. We've been talking about them in the thread!!! Like, calling Splatoon, Punch Out!! AND Zelda (to name a few) bad is a real take.

This is like saying that all video games are FPS. Please play more games.

Also of the top rated games this year, FF7 Rebirth, Destiny 2 The Final Shape, Tekken 8, Hades 2, LaD:IW, Dragon's Dogma 2, Unicorn Overlord, FFXIV Dawntrail and Prince of Persia The Lost Crown all feature diverse casts

 

[Wonder Smash]

We have a Piranha Plant on the roster, Roy, Lucas and Corrin are on the roster. "Importance" hasn't been a real factor for a long while now and it's time to stop using it as another unnecessary hurdle for characters to overcome.

Hmm...first-party characters from series that were added after its most important characters were already in the games...and these series themselves are pretty important too...

 

[Hadokeyblade]

There are a lot of things wrong with this statement. I'll focus on one.

No, most games with diverse casts aren't garbage. Baldur's Gate last year was incredibly diverse. Heck Deadlock has one of the most diverse casts in long time and it's getting unanimous praise. There are countless games with diverse casts that are good. We've been talking about them in the thread!!! Like, calling Splatoon, Punch Out!! AND Zelda (to name a few) bad is a real take.

This is like saying that all video games are FPS. Please play more games.

I said most not all, like, i doubt Dustborn for example is ever getting into smash unless its for a laugh.

Do you really think i was refering to Punch out and Zelda when i say something like that? Of course not.

 

[Laniv]

Hmm...first-party characters from series that were added after its most important characters were already in the games...and these series themselves are pretty important too...

The Toad and Waluigi fans would beg to differ

No but genuinely people will talk all day about how they need more Kirby characters or a grass type Pokemon or whatever, but the minute someone points out that there's no black people in Smash, suddenly there's a bunch of questions. Like you can physically feel the tone change in the room

See this is exactly what I'm talking about

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I said most not all, like, i doubt Dustborn for example is ever getting into smash unless its for a laugh.

Okay.

That's one. You have one example of one game with a diverse cast that was bad. People have given lots of examples to the alternative. I'll even give you a bonus and say Concord so you can have two, just because I'm a nice guy.

But you still have to prove that diverse casts are the problems with these games. And if being diverse isn't the problem, then I have to wonder why you decided to link diversity with the quality of the game in a negative manner.

In an attempt to give an olive branch, I don't think you actually have a problem with diversity and you've just fallen victim to stupid Internet pipelines. You might need to detox my dude, because what you said was borderline prejudice.

 

[Schnee117]

Hmm...first-party characters from series that were added after its most important characters were already in the games...and these series themselves are pretty important too...

Was Mother ever actually important at any point?
Was Fire Emblem important in 2001 when Roy was added before his game even launched?

We can retroactively justify Roy with FE Heroes but that's the problem, it's retroactive and frankly faulty because you have to interrogate how much of Roy's modern popularity is derived from Smash. At the time of addition he had no credentials beyond being an easy Marth clone. Why does Timerra have to jump through these extra hoops?

 

[Ivander]

Sometimes I feel like I can guess how people vote from the way they discuss Smash.

I dunno how to feel about that.

It's possible some of them don't. I'm old enough, but I've been allowed to not vote and I don't vote since I do not like any of the options given. And being a Canadian, I've been feeling nothing but anger and disgust with all the stuff that's been coming to light with my country.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Every old school Scrimblo is making a comeback except the one who started it all.

Sonic never went anywhere.

 

[Dukefire]

How many of us have been toxic sir? The far majority of us have been able to discuss the topic with maturity. You can't say "oh this could get toxic," when the majority here just aren't being toxic.

Or is the topic making you uncomfortable? Because that is a different issue entirely. And if so, I have to ask why?

I'm just worried and uncomfortable of the drama that it could bring. Other toxic topics for Smash Bros are usually tolerable.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm just worried and uncomfortable of the drama that it could bring. Other toxic topics for Smash Bros are usually tolerable.

I mean. It may be justified drama.

I think we can agree that there isn't anything wrong with wanting more PoC characters. If people object to that, I have to ask why?

 

[ScrubReborn]

Oh yeah I just remembered, it's been a full decade since Shulk was revealed for Smash 4 and told the world how much he was feeling it.

While I'm thinking about Xenoblade and we happen to be speaking on minorities in Smash...

She was robbed.

 

[Louie G.]

Just being black is not enough. Same thing for female characters.

Fortunately many of the characters mentioned in this conversation have been praised for their moveset potential, dynamic designs, strong characterization and well... their standout or important roles in their game. We just took a little time just to talk about how great Barret is as a character a bit ago. It's just that once people mention that character's race (or gender) as a point in their favor, certain people act as if none of these other points have been acknowledged. "A character won't just get in because they're black." This is such a common response to these conversations where instead, people are highlighting black characters who have loads of individual appeal and potential. It's a springing off point to talk about great characters in their own right.

Doc Louis is one of my favorite video game characters. Marina is one of my favorite Splatoon idols, and I've always wanted a musical character or troupe playable in Smash. Barret is probably my favorite member of the FF7 gang and I think he would feel like playing as a tank. I don't know anything about Timerra, but frankly she's adorable. Nobody is boiling these great characters exclusively down to their race. But in adding these well liked, dynamic characters chock full of potential to the roster... we are acknowledging the capacity to make the character lineup more diverse, and help players feel seen.

If we can justify those characters for all the same reasons those other guys got in, which we have, what's the problem? Take this how you will, if this doesn't apply to you then go about your business, but why do people butt in during conversations where we highlight all these positive traits for diverse characters and pretend we are fixated on their race and nothing more? Stating that a character won't just get in because of their race is a redundant statement that nobody disagrees with.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Was Mother ever actually important at any point?
Was Fire Emblem important in 2001 when Roy was added before his game even launched?

We can retroactively justify Roy with FE Heroes but that's the problem, it's retroactive and frankly faulty because you have to interrogate how much of Roy's modern popularity is derived from Smash. At the time of addition he had no credentials beyond being an easy Marth clone. Why does Timerra have to jump through these extra hoops?

Mother? Well, Earthbound was important enough to inspire games like Undertale, the South Park game, and many others.
Fire Emblem? It pioneered strategy RPGs. And let's not forget, Roy wasn't added to Melee without Marth.

Here's the question; with Fire Emblem already having so many characters, does she justify being the next playable one? Keep in mind, Roy was also the main character of the most recent game that was coming out at that time. Does Timerra have good reasons that could match that without her race being involved?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Personally I don’t like Barret

I love Barret. I just REALLY don't want a 3rd FF7 character instead of someone from ANY other game in the franchise.

kill two birds with one stone.

Put my girl Shantae in there.

Looking at my big wishlist of Smash characters, I only see 3 non-White/Japanese characters on it.

Shantae (general Arabic)
Sol Badguy (Indian)
King Hippo (Pacific Islander)

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Okay.

That's one. You have one example of one game with a diverse cast that was bad. People have given lots of examples to the alternative. I'll even give you a bonus and say Concord so you can have two, just because I'm a nice guy.

But you still have to prove that diverse casts are the problems with these games. And if being diverse isn't the problem, then I have to wonder why you decided to link diversity with the quality of the game in a negative manner.

In an attempt to give an olive branch, I don't think you actually have a problem with diversity and you've just fallen victim to stupid Internet pipelines. You might need to detox my dude, because what you said was borderline prejudice.

I never said diversity itself was the problem with these games. You just kinda jumped the gun on that assumption.

Like, im a really big Street fighter fan and having characters from all over the world is part of its appeal. Super robot wars has a few Bisexual characters in its line up (though sometimes thats just a biproduct of whatever anime they include on the roster having those kinds of characters anyway)
As long as the game is fun you can put whatever kind of character you want in there.

Its just that there;s been an uptick of games in the past year or two where the biggest selling point is its diversity, which is usually used to disguise how bad the product itself is because companies know there are groups of people who obsess over that sort of thing will defend it to their dying breath even if the product is bad, a third example from this year alone being Suicide squad kill the justice league with it's versions of Joker and Mr freeze.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

It's possible some of them don't. I'm old enough, but I've been allowed to not vote and I don't vote since I do not like any of the options given. And being a Canadian, I've been feeling nothing but anger and disgust with all the stuff that's been coming to light with my country.

Before each election I always promise myself that this time I'll stay home and play videogames, but in the end I always go. You always find that small party you like that doesn't reach the minimum amount anyways...

But yeah I believe that not personally caring that much about some issues is legitimate. Being actively against them is weird though.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Mother? Well, Earthbound was important enough to inspire games like Undertale, the South Park game, and many others.

Eh. Earthbound has always been a cult classic in the best of times. It's its quality and uniqueness is what inspired people, not it's importance.

Also I'm pretty sure Lucas's appearance in Smash predates both Undertale and Southpark: The Fractured But Whole.

 

[fogbadge]

How about Stella from Spiritfarer? Mind the theming of the game may not be suitable for a fighting game

 

[Ivander]

How about Stella from Spiritfarer? Mind the theming of the game may not be suitable for a fighting game

I mean, neither are Animal Crossing or Wii Fit and that ultimately didn't stop them from getting into Smash Bros.

 

[Louie G.]

Here's the question; with Fire Emblem already having so many characters, does she justify being the next playable one?

Arguably Fire Emblem having added so many characters justifies them to add whoever the hell they want next. I think most people would feel refreshed at a more out-there pick to shake up the status quo. Series that have already filled out a bulk of its major players like Mario already have the flexibility to be more experimental, so why not.

Might be odd if she was the first ever Fire Emblem character in Smash, but in a roster of four or five they can stand to add more of a surprise inspired pick.

 

[Kirbeh]

Importance isn't the only factor, but I don't think it's fair to make that argument against the likes of

They're the protagonists of their games, making them among the most, if not the most important characters in regard to their particular titles. In the grand scheme of Nintendo's catalogue, then sure, they're less important but the context in which they were added is something to take into account as well.

Cases like FE are usually promotional picks for the most recent entries in the franchise. These typically end up being the protagonists.

For Plant, we know they were the curveball, weirdo, surprise character. They're not really a good point of comparison.

I understand the sentiment, but I don't think the lack of a PoC is something that can be attributed as deliberate exclusion or malicious.

Nintendo didn't have many popular PoC characters (or many PoC characters in general) up until recently (and it's still not a lot.)

With the way characters have been selected it's always; protagonists, villains, supporting characters and the surprise curveballs. The games highlighted are recent/upcoming releases or stuff like Mario which is always prominent.

Most PoC characters from Nintendo fall into the supporting character category (Marina, Basilio, Timerra, etc.) or come from smaller/niche titles that are unlikely to get (more) representation. i.e. a second PO rep, Tethu from Ever Oasis, etc.

That's just how things have been done thus far, and I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the way characters have been selected.

However, that doesn't mean that things will or should stay that way.

I feel like most of the arguing over this topic has been an issue of wants vs expectations.

Given the state of PoC characters in gaming as a whole I don't think you can blame Wonder Smash for thinking we're still unlikely to get one. At the same time, going into the next Smash/Nintendo console era we actually have a decent pool of (first party) PoC characters that are fairly popular like Marina and Twintelle.

I agree with Schnee117 , Swamp Sensei , etc. that we're at a point where we probably should finally get a PoC character in Smash, but I don't agree with claiming other users lack faith in one is the same as actively trying to exclude them.

Personally, I want Twintelle, Marina, Frye, Doc Louis, Sandman, Tethu, Anthony and more.

I want Adam from Streets of Rage. Sean and Rashid from Street Fighter. Ram from Guilty Gear. Barret and Fran from FF, etc.

Am I expecting them? Sadly no.

There are definitely users who are poor at expressing themselves (and somewhat oblivious at times), like OracleLink, but I don't think it's out of malicious intent.

Posts like Dukefire , Hadokeyblade , ScrubReborn and Dinoman96 certainly don't help either.

tl:dr

I think everyone here is a bit out of line (including myself for calling attention to everyone when I'm not a mod.)

I'd actually like to continue discussing potential PoC reps, but I think people are starting to take things in a direction that'll get people heated and further derail from actually discussing the characters themselves.

 

[fogbadge]

I mean, neither are Animal Crossing or Wii Fit and that ultimately didn't stop them from getting into Smash Bros.

that’s not quite what I meant. by theming I meant the genre and tone of the story

 

[Laniv]

Was Mother ever actually important at any point?
Was Fire Emblem important in 2001 when Roy was added before his game even launched?

We can retroactively justify Roy with FE Heroes but that's the problem, it's retroactive and frankly faulty because you have to interrogate how much of Roy's modern popularity is derived from Smash. At the time of addition he had no credentials beyond being an easy Marth clone. Why does Timerra have to jump through these extra hoops?

Can I say something about Timerra?

I've never played Engage, but I can understand why she's a popular character. However, in the context of black characters in Smash Bros, and in fiction, there is one thing about her design that gives me pause for thought that isn't unique to her specifically. Rather, it's something that is unfortunately common to a lot of characters with dark skin.

I like Timerra well enough, but dang, they really hesitate to give characters like her actual black features, don't they

Like, her hair is straight and she still has the same button nose like Alear or Clanne. She's like Yoruichi from Bleach.

It's nice to have a black character in these games, but man I wish they'd give these characters actual curly hair and broad noses, like black people in real life have

With that said, one thing I should emphasize is that most of the time, imperfect representation is usually better than no representation at all. Characters like Timerra, Twintelle, Doc Louis, Anthony, Marina, and Frye are all huge steps up from the likes of what Mario and Zelda are doing right now.

 

[Ivander]

Arguably Fire Emblem having added so many characters justifies them to add whoever the hell they want next. I think most people would feel refreshed at a more out-there pick to shake up the status quo. Series that have already filled out a bulk of its major players like Mario already have the flexibility to be more experimental, so why not.

Might be odd if she was the first ever Fire Emblem character in Smash, but in a roster of four or five they can stand to add more of a surprise inspired pick.

You're not wrong that they could be more diverse than another main lord, but if there's any FE character I want to shake up the status quo, that would be Reginn. And why not? She's a frickin Mecha-Fighter.

You want to shake up people's perception of Fire Emblem characters, the best one to do that is a character who comes straight out of a steampunk fantasy mecha anime.

I wouldn't mind Timerra if she happened, but like I said, Reginn would mess over people so much on what a Fire Emblem character can be.

 

[CannonStreak]

I am probably going to regret joining this discussion and even saying this, but remember what the African American, Martin Luther King Jr. said about people not being judged by the color of their skin, but the content of their character?

I am not making a big deal out of this, but while dark skinned characters (I am not saying the B word even if it is inoffensive) would be nice to have in Smash, I think it is not just the character being dark skinned that only matters, but how they play and what their moveset and all is.

Just wanted to say this. So, what dark skinned characters would play well to you all?

 

[Schnee117]

Mother? Well, Earthbound was important enough to inspire games like Undertale, the South Park game, and many others.

This is not importance. This is simply an inspiration that it shares with other games. Undertale has a lot of Live A Live DNA in it too, arguably more than Earthbound. Moreover, this influence comes long after both Ness and Lucas were added.

Fire Emblem? It pioneered strategy RPGs. And let's not forget, Roy wasn't added to Melee without Marth.

It made them more popular. But considering the state of the franchise until Awakening over a decade later and the general state of the genre over the years... nah

Here's the question; with Fire Emblem already having so many characters, does she justify being the next playable one? Keep in mind, Roy was also the main character of the most recent game that was coming out at that time. Does Timerra have good reasons that could match that without her race being involved?

See here's the extra hoops we're talking about. Why does Timerra, with FE at 8 characters added, need to put in more work than Roy did when FE only had Marth? Why does Timerra need to put in more work when all Corrin needed to make it was for the devs to convince Sakurai they could be unique? All she needs here is that she's an inherently unique fighter because she uses a lance and can bring in Engage's mechanics to make her further stand out.

Can I say something about Timerra?

I've never played Engage, but I can understand why she's a popular character. However, in the context of black characters in Smash Bros, and in fiction, there is one thing about her design that gives me pause for thought that isn't unique to her specifically. Rather, it's something that is unfortunately common to a lot of characters with dark skin.

View attachment 393860

I like Timerra well enough, but dang, they really hesitate to give characters like her actual black features, don't they

Like, her hair is straight and she still has the same button nose like Alear or Clanne. She's like Yoruichi from Bleach.
View attachment 393861

It's nice to have a black character in these games, but man I wish they'd give these characters actual curly hair and broad noses, like black people in real life have

With that said, one thing I should emphasize is that most of the time, imperfect representation is usually better than no representation at all. Characters like Timerra, Twintelle, Doc Louis, Anthony, Marina, and Frye are all huge steps up from the likes of what Mario and Zelda are doing right now.

Oh no I absolutely 1000% agree. It's a case of where devs, artists and the like can and should go that little extra mile because you look at SF6 and Capcom are putting everyone to shame with Kimberly

**** they gave Dee Jay an absolutely fantastic glow-up with his new SF6 outfit.

It would be great if more devs put a little more into doing this because it always results in a net positive despite the chuds on social media. Really looking forward to what they do with Elena

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I am probably going to regret joining this discussion and even saying this, but remember what the African American, Martin Luther King Jr. said about people not being judged by the color of their skin, but the content of their character?

I am not making a big deal out of this, but while dark skinned characters (I am not saying the B word even if it is inoffensive) would be nice to have in Smash, I think it is not just the character being dark skinned that only matters, but how they play and what their moveset and all is.

Just wanted to say this. So, what dark skinned characters would play well to you all?

I did say Shantae already so theres her.