Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

At the same time, they thought were all worth giving their own separate slots to in a non-EIH game that had to make do with removing transformations, but only one PT mon. And it's the one that gets marketed the most.

I mean they split those characters up due to the same technical limitations, Pokemon Trainer was just completely impossible to implement at all. Cutting them all would've served the same purpose, but Charizard is one of Pokemon Company's golden gooses (considering the two Megas and being the only one of the trio in the base game of Sword and Shield alongside its Gigantamax form), so of course they'd want him to come back even if the others don't; they're not gonna pick Ivysaur to do it lol

Without the technical limitations of the 3DS though, there's really no reason to split Trainer up again outside of extreme circumstance, which would be odd considering I imagine Charizard at least would be pretty high priority for Pokemon.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean they split those characters up due to the same technical limitations, Pokemon Trainer was just completely impossible to implement at all. Cutting them all would've served the same purpose, but Charizard is one of Pokemon Company's golden gooses (considering the two Megas and being the only one of the trio in the base game of Sword and Shield alongside its Gigantamax form), so of course they'd want him to come back even if the others don't; they're not gonna pick Ivysaur to do it lol

Without the technical limitations of the 3DS though, there's really no reason to split Trainer up again outside of extreme circumstance, which would be odd considering I imagine Charizard at least would be pretty high priority for Pokemon.

I wasn't trying to really say we'd get solo versions of the entire PT trio as much as I was trying to say they see merit in having only one member of the PT trio present.

And that merit isn't just that Charizard is the most marketed of the three, it also includes being able to devote more resources to newcomers when they don't have to consider balancing Squirtle and Ivysaur.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I wasn't trying to really say we'd get solo versions of the entire PT trio as much as I was trying to say they see merit in having only one member of the PT trio present.

And that merit isn't just that Charizard is the most marketed of the three, it also includes being able to devote more resources to newcomers when they don't have to consider balancing Squirtle and Ivysaur.

I mean I guess? But it's like... It was Trainer as a group in Brawl and Ultimate, and Trainer was planned for 4 but couldn't work due to the limitations which kind of forced their hand on Solozard. So I feel like they'd just stick with what they've been doing with Trainer since it seems (to me at least) to be what they've intended for every game.

I mean they could go Solozard I guess? But I just don't really see any reason for them to, all things considered.

EDIT: Basically to me, Squirtle and Ivysaur are kinda like the Ice Climbers. They were cut due to the 3DS's technical limitations, but I don't consider them at risk of getting cut barring more hardware limits (unlikely) or extreme circumstance (also unlikely due to Charizard's likely priority).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's some news that will make you say, "heck yeah!'

We've reached more than 210 votes!

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean they could go Solozard I guess? But I just don't really see any reason for them to, all things considered.

Well they're going to have to cut a whole lot of characters to have room for newcomers if SSBU's claim that you shouldn't expect too many newcomers, which was then followed up by the base game only launching with 6 unique ones, was any proof. And I am extremely pessimistic about my favorite Pokemon on the roster's chances coming back when we already have proof they'll cut them if the game's premise isn't Everyone Is Here.

 

[SPEN18]

A default response to "but there's no reason not to bring them back" is to say that no reason is necessary not to bring them back beyond "we have finite time and resources and other characters/contents got prioritized more."

And that's what's principally being argued against the Trainer, that a 3-in-1 fighter requires a ton of resources going towards characters that likely wouldn't have been able to make it on their own. So no, going for solo Zard likely wouldn't be the result of technical limitations anymore, but it could be the result of other practical constraints which will be more strenuous to deal with than ever before in Smash 6.

 

[Undella2]

I think they'll cut at least Pichu, one of either Mewtwo or Lucario (due to both being variants of mixed "magic projectile" users and melee combatants), and then one of either Greninja or Incineroar (due to both being "newer gen representation of particular games relevant at the time their respective first smash game came out that were both also promoted by the anime"). Perhaps Pokemon Trainer too, or maybe just cutting it down to Charizard again, depending on where development priorities lie.

So you'd get Pikachu, Jigglypuff (I do think at this point it's staying in as long as the roster's 50-ish characters or bigger due to veterancy), PKMN Trainer/Charizard/free spot, Mewtwo/Lucario, and Greninja/Incineroar. That'd be 4-5 slots on the CSS filled. That'd probably then give them space to add in one or two (if PKMN trainer/Charizard were cut entirely) more new original pokemon fighters.

Smash 4 had 5 (before DLC) and then 6 (after DLC) Pokemon characters in its roster. As I'm guessing that the next game will be around, or a bit bigger than Smash 4 personally speaking, I'd think that a similar number would make sense.

 

[Laniv]

WRT Pokemon Trainer talk, and a wild idea: people often toss around the idea of Ganondorf getting decloned and someone like Black Shadow getting the old Falcondorf moveset, but what if they kept the trainer and added another dragon Pokemon to inherit the old Solozard moveset? Which Pokemon would you pick?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

To be fair, Sakurai isn't as concerned with over-saturation as this community is since he's allowed for certain series to gain more characters than others if the characters in question brings something fun and unique to the table. We could see the Pokémon series keeping more characters than we'd think just because of how Pokémon Trainer works, and how important they are. So something like this: would be possible even though it's 8 whole characters.

Dunno how likely an event that would be, but it probably shouldn't be counted out as a possibility.

WRT Pokemon Trainer talk, and a wild idea: people often toss around the idea of Ganondorf getting decloned and someone like Black Shadow getting the old Falcondorf moveset, but what if they kept the trainer and added another dragon Pokemon to inherit the old Solozard moveset? Which Pokemon would you pick?

Mega Charizard X? I don't think there are any Pokémon that really fit Charizard's mold. I think the closest you get is Druddigon, which wouldn't work physically, and Flygon, which wouldn't work thematically.

EDIT: The ability to straight up play as a Mega Pokémon would be super freaking cool though.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

WRT Pokemon Trainer talk, and a wild idea: people often toss around the idea of Ganondorf getting decloned and someone like Black Shadow getting the old Falcondorf moveset, but what if they kept the trainer and added another dragon Pokemon to inherit the old Solozard moveset? Which Pokemon would you pick?

Dragonite.

 

[SPEN18]

Anyway, an interesting thing about Gengar is that a great deal of his popularity actually percolated in the more modern era, like gens 6 and beyond (tho he was certainly popular before that, too). He's certainly not just a straight 90s nostalgia pick.

 

[SharkLord]

A default response to "but there's no reason not to bring them back" is to say that no reason is necessary not to bring them back beyond "we have finite time and resources and other characters/contents got prioritized more."

And that's what's principally being argued against the Trainer, that a 3-in-1 fighter requires a ton of resources going towards characters that likely wouldn't have been able to make it on their own. So no, going for solo Zard likely wouldn't be the result of technical limitations anymore, but it could be the result of other practical constraints which will be more strenuous to deal with than ever before in Smash 6.

Yeah, if I remember correctly, Marth, Bowser, Ganondorf, and Dedede(?) were considered for 64 but there just wasn't enough time. Similarly, Wario would've been in Melee if there was more time, but there simply wasn't, so he had to be saved for Brawl. That applies to third-parties too; A lot of people seem to assume that all - Or at least most - third-parties will come back simply because Nintendo's already licensed them, but some guests might get left in the dust simply because all the seats are taken. Not because they're unimportant or unpopular, but just because there's only so much time and budget you have to work with.

 

[SPEN18]

Yeah, if I remember correctly, Marth, Bowser, Ganondorf, and Dedede(?) were considered for 64 but there just wasn't enough time. Similarly, Wario would've been in Melee if there was more time, but there simply wasn't

Not Ganondorf, but the rest of these, yes.

Sourcegaming has a pretty good article for this stuff:

The Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash

A comprehensive update to the Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash! A fully sourced list of every statement made by Sakurai on potential fighters for each entry in the Smash series.

sourcegaming.info

 

[robot067]

As a former Solozard main in Sm4sh, it's hard for me to see the smash team going back to just him unless the next game has significant mechanical changes that would make updating Pokemon Trainer to much work. Charizard is undoubtedly one of the most iconic Pokemon ever, but I would argue the trainer themselves is more iconic, and like others have said Charizard was always intended as part of the team rather his own fighter. Solozard was a result of the unique circumstances of having to bring Smash to the 3DS.

I'd love to be wrong though, don't get me wrong. I miss his old down b and final smash so much lol.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Pokemon Trainer is so tightly designed and executed that, in a world where nearly everyone else receives moveset overhauls or significant differences in later Smash entries, Trainer is one of the few characters I'd want to play the same (albeit with the stats of the trio being tweaked until their dynamic goes from great to perfection).

I think Trainer could (relatively) easily be brought back since their group dynamic is pretty set and I couldn't see much being changed about them, even in a reboot scenario. Most of the work is already done.

 

[Guynamednelson]

WRT Pokemon Trainer talk, and a wild idea: people often toss around the idea of Ganondorf getting decloned and someone like Black Shadow getting the old Falcondorf moveset, but what if they kept the trainer and added another dragon Pokemon to inherit the old Solozard moveset? Which Pokemon would you pick?

In the event that we have both PT and a mon that serves a "Solozard" function...I'd like the Solozard function to have more changes to it than just a down-B. Like how Garchomp would have to have any animations involving wings (which luckily there aren't many in terms of attacks) altered, and a lack of triple jumping. You could also make its side-B the Dragon Rush variant from Smash 4.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Pokemon Trainer is so tightly designed and executed that, in a world where nearly everyone else receives moveset overhauls or significant differences in later Smash entries, Trainer is one of the few characters I'd want to play the same (albeit with the stats of the trio being tweaked until their dynamic goes from great to perfection).

I think Trainer could (relatively) easily be brought back since their group dynamic is pretty set and I couldn't see much being changed about them, even in a reboot scenario. Most of the work is already done.

Honestly, I don't even know if they need that many tweaks, since 24th out of 82 characters on the most recent tier list I can find is really good (Trainer's top of A- tier) but not like top tier/likely to be nerfed hard range imo?

The only tweak I'd really like to see is Charizard Mega Evolving into Charizard Y during Triple Finish, and even that's just an aesthetic change that's not really necessary at the end of the day lol

 

[NotWilliam]

On the fire emblem side of things I think Marth, Roy, Ike and Byleth are safe. Then we can get either Alear or Lyn

 

[DarthEnderX]

Here's some news that will make you say, "heck yeah!'

We've reached more than 210 votes!

You overestimate my interest in 1P Smash characters.

WRT Pokemon Trainer talk, and a wild idea: people often toss around the idea of Ganondorf getting decloned and someone like Black Shadow getting the old Falcondorf moveset, but what if they kept the trainer and added another dragon Pokemon to inherit the old Solozard moveset? Which Pokemon would you pick?

Solozard moveset is just PTzard + rock smash.

I'd rather they brought back Solozard as a PT Echo.

Mega Charizard X?

That could work.

Charizard is undoubtedly one of the most iconic Pokemon ever, but I would argue the trainer themselves is more iconic,

If he was Ash, or even Red, I would agree with you.

But Smash's generic Trainer isn't more iconic than Charizard.

 

[Perkilator]

On the fire emblem side of things I think Marth, Roy, Ike and Byleth are safe. Then we can get either Alear or Lyn

I’m sorry but I don’t see them cutting any of the Awakening trio—you know, the characters from the game that saved Fire Emblem—in favor of Roy. Even if the FE veteran lineup were Marth/Ike/Robin/Byleth and neither Chrom nor Lucina returned, it’d still be the more likely scenario then no Awakening characters at all.

 

[DKing]

On the fire emblem side of things I think Marth, Roy, Ike and Byleth are safe. Then we can get either Alear or Lyn

I am not sure Byleth will be safe. He could be cut and replace by Alear like how Lucario replaced Mewtwo in Brawl. If they will do cut in smash 6.

 

[Opossum]

I am not sure Byleth will be safe. He could be cut and replace by Alear like how Lucario replaced Mewtwo in Brawl. If they will do cut in smash 6.

Lucario did not replace Mewtwo, and Three Houses is by far the most popular Fire Emblem game.

If Byleth leaves, it wouldn't be for Alear, but for another Three Houses character.

 

[Borskaboska]

My dream idea is that character switching/team building becomes a universal mechanic or game mode, which would probably require cutting pokemon trainer just so the mechanics dont class. Thats probably the only case they would cut trainer and keep solo zard for any non-technical reason.

Re: Lucario, I agree he's probably the most likely cut after pichu and jigglypuff, but I kinda appreciate how he's designed to look a lot like lucario. I hear a lot of people wanting lucario to be redesigned, which i get because his portrayal isnt super lore accurate, but after so many years of the meme of "add goku to smash", it feels like lucario was added as a sort of wink wink nudge nudge reference to that. Extreme Speed looks a lot like how Toriyama draws people flying, Double Team is like Instant Transmission, of course Aura Sphere charges like a Kamehameha. Even getting stronger the more he gets damaged feels like a reference to sayans powering up when near death. And I think it's nice how lucario and mewtwo have a goku vs. freiza visual parralel going on. I mean I would def cut lucario if it made room for my favorite scungly bungus but I feel like it would be losing an interesting bit of design concept.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Yeah in regards to Fire Emblem, Marth is the face of the series, Ike is the most popular male character, Robin is the unique fighter from the game that saved Fire Emblem from ending, and Byleth is from the best selling game in the series.

I feel pretty confident that those four at least are safe bets, and imo a whittled down roster of them plus Alear as the new kid in town would work pretty well.

 

[Borskaboska]

Yeah in regards to Fire Emblem, Marth is the face of the series, Ike is the most popular male character, Robin is the unique fighter from the game that saved Fire Emblem from ending, and Byleth is from the best selling game in the series.

I feel pretty confident that those four at least are safe bets, and imo a whittled down roster of them plus Alear as the new kid in town would work pretty well.

I dont want Alear 100% solely because they look ugly, so thats why i disagree and think you are wrong.

 

[DKing]

Lucario did not replace Mewtwo, and Three Houses is by far the most popular Fire Emblem game.

If Byleth leaves, it wouldn't be for Alear, but for another Three Houses character.

Just a question who do you think in the three Houses could be the best candidate?

 

[NotWilliam]

I’m sorry but I don’t see them cutting any of the Awakening trio—you know, the characters from the game that saved Fire Emblem—in favor of Roy. Even if the FE veteran lineup were Marth/Ike/Robin/Byleth and neither Chrom nor Lucina returned, it’d still be the more likely scenario then no Awakening characters at all.

Yeah, your right. Just don't want Roy to go, he's my favorite swordie

 

[ScrubReborn]

Re: Charizard echo

I'd prefer they just give us the choice to play each of Trainer's Pokemon solo on the CSS, with Squirtle and Ivysaur each getting an extra special move to replace Trainer Switch.

Re: Lucario, I agree he's probably the most likely cut after pichu and jigglypuff, but I kinda appreciate how he's designed to look a lot like lucario. I hear a lot of people wanting lucario to be redesigned, which i get because his portrayal isnt super lore accurate, but after so many years of the meme of "add goku to smash", it feels like lucario was added as a sort of wink wink nudge nudge reference to that.

I agree with that. They don't need to reinvent the wheel with Lucario. Just make his design less exaggerated. I don't think Lucario's design in Smash is bad at all, and he played great in Brawl. I feel like they should just pretty much fully revert him back to Brawlcario. Though I would also let him keep getting stronger up to 999% as a kinda Easter Egg for really good players lol.

 

[Pupp135]

Regarding Pokemon and Fire Emblem, here are my current priorities:

Pokemon:
: There’s not much to say besides it being the pokemon mascot.
/( as a last resort): I think there’s value to Pokemon Trainer in terms of both gameplay and representing pokemon, and I think their chances are underrated. Pokemon Trainer is one of the only two transforming fighters in Ultimate, which is pretty unique on its own. Also, Pokemon Trainer represents multiple things, such as evolution lines, pokemon typings, and the trainer themselves. While they were cut in SSBFor because of 3DS limitations, I think my points above would help make them a higher priority on the roster, and I feel like solo Charizard would be a time constraint based last resort.

After Pikachu and Pokemon Trainer/Charizard, this is where priorties tend to get blurrier.

: I have Lucario as the next veteran more or less because it’s a popular pokemon since Gen IV, and it seemed to be a high priority going into SSBFor after being promoted to a starter character.
: While Mewtwo would be the third/fifth Kanto pokemon depending on how much you value Pokemon Trainer, I think that Mewtwo is valued more than Greninja. While it was cut from Brawl, this was a highly requested fighter going into SSBFor, and it remains popular today.
: Popular pokemon who more or less has to compete with the other four/six fighters above.
: The main things going for it are SSB history and ease of development at this point. While it was low priority in Brawl and For, I can still see it squeak by, potentially over Greninja and/or Mewtwo.
: This is a notable pokemon, but I feel like it’s popular than the ones above barring potentially Jigglypuff, and I guess this may be me just saying to axe the new ones first to some degree.
: I feel like this is one of those characters who will only remain because of everyone is here.

Fire Emblem:
/: Marth is the poster child of Fire Emblem, and I think that they’ll try to bring echoes back with their parent, so that’s why Lucina is here.
: I flip flop between Ike and Robin as they both contribute important factors that differ from each other. Ike is the more popular character, has more history than Robin in SSB, and provides a heavy swordfighter.
: In contrast to Ike, Robin provides an Avatar, a protagonist from Fire Emblem’s Renaissance game, and a unique gameplay mechanic in the form of weapon durability.
: Three Houses is an important game, but Byleth’s intial mixed reception puts them lower for me, and I think the other four fighters above have some good justifications to stay.
/: Roy is well liked in the SSB Community, Chrom was requested going into Ultimate, but Byleth’s points still apply here.
: Outside of Piranha Plant, Corrin is probably the lowest priority in terms of unique fighters given the divisive nature of the character.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo actually hasn't been for some time now.

Mewtwo isn't unpopular now, but to say he's in the Top10 simply isn't so accurate anymore.

In comparison, there's on Gen 1 Pokémon that's been popular for decades, even more so than Mewtwo, that is still not in Smash.

Doesn't matter too much. Mewtwo is still promoted heavily, basically always. And the fact it was so heavily suggested for Smash 4, rivaling Mega Man, Ridley and K.Rool even (these 4 where the biggest suggestions by far) means Mewtwo should be relatively safe.

Pokemon isn't gonna get that many cuts I think anyway. Why is this the general consensus? Yeah Pichu, Squirtle and Ivysaur are likelier to go than stay, but outside of them? Incineroar or Jigglypuff seem more likely to go than Mewtwo.

Jigglypuff being kinda in the air due to being lower priority couple of times and all, but also being easy enough to program to always make it in regardless.

Quite confident in Mewtwo. It might not enjoy as much Smash popularity like Lucario, but that's all the more reason to flesh out their movesets. Mewtwo, Lucario and Charizard would enjoy that much more popularity if their movesets where better functioning and being more true to source material. Can't imagine anything else. So even in case of a reboot I think they'll stay cause the potential for revamps of their movesets are just that much greater than the average Smash fighter. Yes that's counting Ganondorf.

Now what else has been said here.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Squirtle and Ivysaur are likelier to go than stay

I know this is just a small bit of a conversation about Mewtwo, not necessarily these two, but I still don't think this is true lol

And this isn't just directed at you Diddy, moreso generally lol

I keep thinking about this and the responses I saw earlier to it, and while it is true that there are only so many resources to go around for characters, these are things that are at least MOSTLY sorted out in the planning stages, and while Pokemon Trainer was obviously planned for Brawl and Ultimate, Trainer as a unit was ALSO planned for 4. So if Trainer has been at least planned for every game they've been in since they debuted in Brawl AS A UNIT, and Charizard is basically guaranteed to return (which I agree with) being second in priority only to Pikachu for Pokemon, then I don't get why Squirtle and Ivysaur wouldn't also enjoy this priority thanks to their proximity and connection to Charizard. It's not like they're going to build Smash 4 Solozard and then wait until the end of development to say "All right, now we can implement Squirtle and Ivysaur", they're all one transformation character. It'd be like saying Pyra and Mythra or Brawl Zelda/Sheik have different priorities from each other instead of just being a unit made at the same time (obviously Pyra/Mythra have more in common, but as the only other current transformation character, I feel like the sentiment applies).

 

[Arcanir]

Lucario is always funny to see in discussion when it comes to Pokemon vs. Smash. Lucario in Pokemon is by far one of the most prominent and popular Pokemon nowadays, to the point that many probably would say he's among Charizard and Mewtwo as a major face of the franchise. Smash? He has a habit of being overlooked.

Lucario in Smash however? Often overlooked and not uncommonly dismissed, especially among most of the Pokemon.

It's one of the biggest contrasts in popularity you can see.

I know this is just a small bit of a conversation about Mewtwo, not necessarily these two, but I still don't think this is true lol

And this isn't just directed at you Diddy, moreso generally lol

I keep thinking about this and the responses I saw earlier to it, and while it is true that there are only so many resources to go around for characters, these are things that are at least MOSTLY sorted out in the planning stages, and while Pokemon Trainer was obviously planned for Brawl and Ultimate, Trainer as a unit was ALSO planned for 4. So if Trainer has been at least planned for every game they've been in since they debuted in Brawl AS A UNIT, and Charizard is basically guaranteed to return (which I agree with) being second in priority only to Pikachu for Pokemon, then I don't get why Squirtle and Ivysaur wouldn't also enjoy this priority thanks to their proximity and connection to Charizard. It's not like they're going to build Smash 4 Solozard and then wait until the end of development to say "All right, now we can implement Squirtle and Ivysaur", they're all one transformation character. It'd be like saying Pyra and Mythra or Brawl Zelda/Sheik have different priorities from each other instead of just being a unit made at the same time (obviously Pyra/Mythra have more in common, but as the only other current transformation character, I feel like the sentiment applies).

Actually, they could. Diddy was initially planned as a duo fighter with Dixie, but when the idea was scrapped Diddy alone was moved up while Dixie (in)famously became one of the Forbidden Seven. If PT has a similar scenario where they can't complete the character in time, not all three have to share the same priority. They could be split according to how they want to prioritize those characters, and since Charizard has already came back solo in Smash 4 it's not impossible that he once again gets higher priority than the other two in the next game if PT can't work out.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Actually, they could. Diddy was initially planned as a duo fighter with Dixie, but when the idea was scrapped Diddy alone was moved up while Dixie (in)famously became one of the Forbidden Seven. If PT has a similar scenario where they can't complete the character in time, not all three have to share the same priority. They could be split according to how they want to prioritize those characters, and since Charizard has already came back solo in Smash 4 it's not impossible that he once again gets higher priority than the other two in the next game if PT can't work out.

That's true about Dixie, but the idea was scrapped due to technical issues with the implementation, much like Squirtle, Ivysaur, and the Ice Climbers situation in 4, and why Rex was passed over in Ultimate in favor of Pyra/Mythra as a transformation character, not because Diddy was built first and then they ran out of time. I really don't see a scenario where Pokemon Trainer happens at a point in time where they simply can't be finished (if Charizard is priority number two after Pikachu for Pokemon, even if you do make Squirtle and Ivysaur later on I don't think there's any way you make them so much farther down the ladder that there's a chance they just don't get finished in time), and I don't expect technical issues/limitations to be an issue here.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I know this is just a small bit of a conversation about Mewtwo, not necessarily these two, but I still don't think this is true lol

And this isn't just directed at you Diddy, moreso generally lol

I keep thinking about this and the responses I saw earlier to it, and while it is true that there are only so many resources to go around for characters, these are things that are at least MOSTLY sorted out in the planning stages, and while Pokemon Trainer was obviously planned for Brawl and Ultimate, Trainer as a unit was ALSO planned for 4. So if Trainer has been at least planned for every game they've been in since they debuted in Brawl AS A UNIT, and Charizard is basically guaranteed to return (which I agree with) being second in priority only to Pikachu for Pokemon, then I don't get why Squirtle and Ivysaur wouldn't also enjoy this priority thanks to their proximity and connection to Charizard. It's not like they're going to build Smash 4 Solozard and then wait until the end of development to say "All right, now we can implement Squirtle and Ivysaur", they're all one transformation character. It'd be like saying Pyra and Mythra or Brawl Zelda/Sheik have different priorities from each other instead of just being a unit made at the same time (obviously Pyra/Mythra have more in common, but as the only other current transformation character, I feel like the sentiment applies).

Good argument. Maybe what helps your argument further is that the Trainer had higher priority than Mewtwo too in Brawl as a newcomer, vs Mewtwo as veteran.

However, if Sheik and Zero Suit Samus got a separate slot, why not Squirtle and Ivysaur? They wouldn't get in without the Trainer. So that's why I feel they're definitely lower priority.

 

[Idon]

Lucario in Smash however? Often overlooked and not uncommonly dismissed, especially among most of the Pokemon.

It's one of the biggest contrasts in popularity you can see.

This just goes to show the power of a good adaptation in a completely different game.

For example, Roy would not have half the fame he did had he not 1. Made it to Melee and 2. Had one of the most drastic makeovers a smash character has ever received in 4. With a moveset as natural as his, anybody can pick up and fall in love with him, to the point we have people, now, arguing that he would stay over anyone from Awakening while Roy is still 1 of 2 region locked games.

Lucario, unfortunately like a lot of other characters, has a lot of his popularity diminished when he's sluggish, slow, floaty, and has a defeatist character mechanic. How they turned what is ostensibly blue poke-Goku into a character people just scroll past on the CSS is a feat. I can only pray that with the reintroduction of Megas in PLZA, they'd take another look at one of the posterboys of that mechanic.

 

[Diddy Kong]

This just goes to show the power of a good adaptation in a completely different game.

For example, Roy would not have half the fame he did had he not 1. Made it to Melee and 2. Had one of the most drastic makeovers a smash character has ever received in 4. With a moveset as natural as his, anybody can pick up and fall in love with him, to the point we have people, now, arguing that he would stay over anyone from Awakening while Roy is still 1 of 2 region locked games.

Lucario, unfortunately like a lot of other characters, has a lot of his popularity diminished when he's sluggish, slow, floaty, and has a defeatist character mechanic. How they turned what is ostensibly blue poke-Goku into a character people just scroll past on the CSS is a feat. I can only pray that with the reintroduction of Megas in PLZA, they'd take another look at one of the posterboys of that mechanic.

Fun fact: Roy's game Fire Emblem 6 was also considered a "revival" of Fire Emblem in a way, with major thematic similarities to Marth's game. This is extra ironic cause Chrom is his Echo Fighter.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Good argument. Maybe what helps your argument further is that the Trainer had higher priority than Mewtwo too in Brawl as a newcomer, vs Mewtwo as veteran.

However, if Sheik and Zero Suit Samus got a separate slot, why not Squirtle and Ivysaur? They wouldn't get in without the Trainer. So that's why I feel they're definitely lower priority.

Well, my point wasn't specifically about Mewtwo (I have both of them on the generous roster I made for personal reasons and cut Lucario because I really dislike Smash Lucario lol), but thanks lol

I'm not sure why they didn't go for solo Squirtle and Ivysaur. Possibly the idea of 7 Pokemon (8 after Mewtwo's DLC) felt like too much for Smash 4, maybe they couldn't think of ideas for specialized Down Specials, maybe Charizard was the only one who felt like a fit as a solo character (Ivysaur feels like a weird solo fighter to me and I love Ivysaur the most out of the trio lol).

That said, I still feel like they would plan for Trainer from the start like they have in every game since the trio were introduced, which means I don't think it's very likely that they'd be so low priority that they could be cut due to time constraints when Charizard would be developed pretty early on with his perceived high priority, especially if he's planned from the start to be one part of a trio, is all I'm saying.

 

[JCKirbs]

Hence why I wish Bandana Dee wouldn't be touted as the end-all-be-all of Kirby inclusions. Even in the context of his inclusion vouching for modern titles, I feel there are tons of holes that would cause Kirby to fall into similar problems that Smash currently displays. The three fighters we have retained are theoretically fine, but not within the hole in Smash it's dug itself into. We'd need more assist trophies, a couple more stages (or a replacement for GCO) and much better reference points to really make the most of Kirby. Bandana Dee could solve this partially, but to treat his inclusion as an absolute endgoal is missing crucial details.

I think Bandana Dee was simply tethered to the role of improving Modern Kirby's representation specifically during Ultimate's Fighter's Pass cycle. Especially since it would've guaranteed a Modern Kirby stage, music, and additional Spirits if a game like Star Allies was selected as the focal point from which the content would mainly be extracted from. Ultimately this thoughtful concept turned fruitless (although some scraps of Star Allies content already made it into the game anyway), and it honestly wasn't hard to realize that Nintendo was clearly targeting unrepresented franchises altogether (ARMS, for 1st Parties in this case) or "last-chance" character picks like Byleth and Pythra since Xenoblade 5 and Fire Emblem 19 would be out by the next Smash game with more characters to pull from there instead.

Personally, even if Bandana Dee's chances were through the roof, I'm kinda glad that he didn't get into Ultimate. Instead, building up his status within the Kirby franchise has only granted him more potential and relevancy than ever before in the Kirby franchise, and Forgotten Land managed to basically establish him as Kirby's P2, signifying everything that led him to that point. Feels like that would fair better for a Smash entry that leans more towards Smash 4's method of including fighters, which could just be what Smash 6 is aiming for.

 

[Royaru]

On the topic of Pokemon and Fire Emblem

Pikachu and Jigglypuff are untouchable at this point, but if we're talking about future relevance Lucario,Charizard Mewto and even Greninja are going to have a lot of it thanks to Z-A Legends and the return of Mega Evolution. Even Incineroar could have relevance in Z-A if it has a regional form. People underestimate how popular mega evolutions are, Lucario was already one of the most popular Pokemon without the mega, and being THE pokemon that represents the mega evolution it is difficult for it to lose that popularity. Greninja is already popular at base, and it is very likely that in Legends Z-A it will get a mega. It would not even be strange for VERY popular Pokemon to get two megas like Charizard and Mewtwo. And if there are two Pokemon that are so popular today those are Lucario and Greninja. Pichu and Ivysaur/Squirtle are the most likely to leave in the next game, but as you said I highly doubt they'll split the trainer again.

As for Fire Emblem, Marth is the face of the franchise, Ike and Roy are VERY popular and won the first Heroes popularity poll. Robin and Byleth come from the best-selling games in the series (TH is even the best-selling SRPG in history), and represent important and distinctive aspects of the franchise. Corrin is the one who is in a more delicate spot and still remains a tremendously popular character.
Thinking about FE, rather than characters that are not going to be in the next Smash, we should assume that we will probably see a character from TH or even Heroes due to their relevance and popularity. A character from these two games is much more likely than one from Engage considering the lukewarm reception the game had in terms of sales, critics and popularity.
In fact, if we go by popularity polls in Heroes Veronica is VERY popular and has even made her debut in the main games in Engage. Alfonse is also a popular choice although perhaps less unique as a playable character.
If we think about TH (Houses/Hopes in this case), characters like Edelgard or Dimitri are VERY popular and would be quite unique compared to the rest of the cast. Shez is less popular but would also be a more unique character.

 

[Pupp135]

While on the topic of Pokemon Trainer, had the 3DS limitations not been an issue, how would Ice Climbers, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, and Pokemon Trainer’s (more specifically Ivysaur and Squirtle) chances of returning change compared to their current chances? I’m curious if they’d be perceived more likely as some of them wouldn’t have been cut, and barring Ice Climbers, these fighters would have always been tied to transforming gimmicks, or if their chances would be in a similar position as they are less historically prominent compared to their counterparts (this doesn’t apply to Ice Climbers, but they still are less historically important compared to other fighters).