Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Noipoi]

I think just Shadow gets a bad wrap because his archetype requires good writing or people start rolling their eyes. It doesn't help that he is pretty darn close to (and helps foster) the 12 year old kid's ocs that are like "my character has a dark past and he spends all his time brooding alone because friendship is dumb and nihilism is my aesthetic".

Not even pretty darn close. I can name several instances where all the nuances of his character are dropped and he’s written exactly like this.

Shadow’s such a delicate character. He just needs to be handled with care

 

[Mamboo07]

Who are your most wanted villains?

• Dark Matter (Kirby)
• Dr. Eggman (Sonic)
• Raven Beak (Metroid)
• Shake King (Wario)
• DJ Octavio (Splatoon)
• Pig Ganon (Zelda)
• Hades (Kid Icarus)

 

[Sucumbio]

"Shadow ain't cool"

"Say WHAT"

 

[ninjahmos]

If Knuckles ever DOES get into Smash, they should use THIS as one of his taunts

 

[Noipoi]

If Knuckles ever DOES get into Smash, they should use THIS as one of his taunts

And he should say this whenever he gets knocked out

 

[Mamboo07]

antropomorphized Andross...

Closest thing to that is this design from Star Fox Zero which could work:

 

[Arcanir]

Who are your most wanted villains?

Mine are DJ Octavio, King Boo, and Pig Ganon

Black Knight
Lyon
Vaati
King Boo
Raven Beak
Medusa (KI)
DJ Octavio
Nightmare (SC)
Firebrand
Dr. Eggman

 

[AreJay25]

If Knuckles ever DOES get into Smash, they should use THIS as one of his taunts

It'd literally be a crime if it wasn't. It's like his trademark thing in Sonic 3.

... well besides being able to glide but y'know.

 

[superprincess]

What honestly shocks me is that we have a series with multiple games featuring Mario and Sonic crossing over at the olympic games that has lasted a long while, and yet Sonic is still the sole representive of his series in Smash, it boggles my mind.

I honestly think it makes sense that Sonic doesn't have a second character in Smash yet. Smash 4 released during a time when the series was under a lot of scrutiny (justifiably so) and after quite a few bad entries, it just never totally recovered. Also, at the time, it made sense to focus on bringing in new 3rd party worlds (Megaman, Pac-Man) instead of expanding the already existing one.

And Ultimate, of course, had its infamously small pool of base game new fighters that didn't really leave room for a Sonic newcomer. They could squeeze in Shadow as an echo but his AT did get an upgrade, and Knuckles came in as a new AT, so I'd say the series was fine.

This idea that Sonic is "under represented" in fighters didn't come around until the Sephiroth DLC. Even in the Fighter's Passes, a Sonic character being skipped just makes sense. Nintendo chose Ballot favorites or lucrative promo picks. Sometimes both. A Sonic character would honestly be neither.

 

[ScrubReborn]

When it comes to Sonic. I'd be cool with any of the big picks but if I had to choose one, I want my boi Shadew man. And/or Eggman, those are my ones. And maybe I'm huffing a whole propane tank of copium, but if Sonic's playable representation is expanded at all, 100% Shadow's gonna be part of it. Imma stand on that. Wheter on his own as a unique/semi-clone, or as a supplementary echo to a different Sonic newcomer.

Huge spike in fan demand in base Ultimate which I'm sure the Smash team's aware of, Sega is pushing him like crazy rn, and he's probably the only big Sonic character that is workable as an echo, so he can still be included on the side even if a different main rep is chosen. Like, most characters would kill for such an ideal set of circumstances. If the team wants more Sonic characters - this is opportunity staring them in the face right here.

What honestly shocks me is that we have a series with multiple games featuring Mario and Sonic crossing over at the olympic games that has lasted a long while, and yet Sonic is still the sole representive of his series in Smash, it boggles my mind.

TBF we didn't start getting secondary third parties at all until Ultimate, I wouldn't say its weird. I will be surprised if Sonic doesn't get anyone else by the time Smash 6 is wrapped up though, unless they dial down on third parties, which I doubt.

 

[Louie G.]

This idea that Sonic is "under represented" in fighters didn't come around until the Sephiroth DLC.

It was a sentiment among more casual fans for a long time, and probably started to manifest more passionately after Shadow was passed up as an echo fighter and we got Ken and Richter. But you're right that Sephiroth gave them a second wind, since most of us had assumed they would be adding entirely new series or unrepresented games as DLC anyway.

But yeah, something I see people neglect as well is that Final Fantasy does pretty equal numbers to Sonic on a world scale, and outright tramples it in Japan. It actually edges Sonic out by about 25 mil units sold, if that counts for anything - so if we're talking on the premise of cold hard statistics, it adds up. People like to act as if Sonic is the biggest third party in the game by a country mile. It's up there, but it's a misconception. He's the most ""fitting"" one on paper because of his deep history with Mario and the fact that cartoony platforming mascots are always going to be more easily embraced in Smash, but I too often see people use this as a way to act entitled to another character and suggest it has earned special treatment over other guests.

Like, I agree that it's in pretty high billing to get a new character next game, but you get what I mean. No disrespect to anyone in this thread either, I was just speaking generally about the fanbase and how they treat Sonic's representation. Next game may be the first time I really feel like that energy toward a second Sonic character is warranted / justified.

Nintendo chose Ballot favorites or lucrative promo picks. Sometimes both. A Sonic character would honestly be neither.

I do wonder how well these guys did in the Ballot though. Eggman support didn't kick in til later, so I'm going to consider that a nonfactor. But Tails has been requested for about as long as Sonic has, and Shadow / Knuckles definitely had some support as far back as Brawl. So I wouldn't be surprised if they performed decently well, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they individually kind of splintered each other's votes.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Knuckles ever DOES get into Smash, they should use THIS as one of his taunts

Oh, and the Cowboy Hat could be one of his alts.

 

[superprincess]

People like to act as if Sonic is the biggest third party in the game by a country mile.

This! We're not in the 90s anymore. Most of the people from my generation know Sonic from the Mario Olympics.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Sonic is unusual in that the series fame exists beyond games to such a degree that it sort of obfuscates the occasional modest sales of some his games.

I mean you ain't getting two live action movies by Paramount if you're a niche third party brand. Throw in stuff like merch, the current IDW comic, and the various TV adaptations and it's a franchise making bank. It's also a very frequently discussed series online, giving it a big reputation and status (not always positive) that most video game fans encounter at one point or another.

While none of that necessarily gives it consistently high numbers for each new entry, the idea that it should have more in Smash by some people does make sense given all of the above even though Sega, Nintendo, and the Smash team all have a number of considerations outside that to take into account.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

No. I'm just saying that the "next in line" logic doesn't really work for any character. We've seen characters who are "lesser" take priority over more important faces, so Knuckles/Shadow over Tails could definitely happen too.

While it's true Tails isn't a guarantee for the hypothetical Sonic secondary, Toad is probably the worst example you could have given.
That's a tertiary character at best that would follow up characters clearly higher in priority in Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, etc. the point of which Toad started being seen as "next".

While Tails would be the second Sonic character without precedence of being passed over for someone "higher" (which debatably Eggman would be but he's also seen as boss material) or "lower" (Shadow, Knuckles, etc.).

Whereas we see more in Tails' position as "main sidekick" be the immediate next one .

 

[Louie G.]

This! We're not in the 90s anymore. Most of the people from my generation know Sonic from the Mario Olympics.

Well to be fair, I think Sonic's brand recognition is especially high lately. When I worked at GameStop a couple years ago, plenty of kids would come in and excitedly buy Sonic games or Sonic toys. I think the movies have done a great deal to put him back on the map, and seem to have lit a flame under Sega's ass as well to kind of bring some of these characters back to form and get out of their rut. Frontiers seems to have been pretty successful in that.

Those Final Fantasy stats I brought up are accurate, but Sonic is right underneath it in terms of the best selling game series ever. So I don't say that to suggest Sonic isn't the juggernaut it used to be, but rather it's not a special case that should be put on a pedestal above everyone else. I think more than anything though, the value of Sonic as a character and a mascot is arguably higher than that of his games. He's kind of a multimedia figure now.

 

[MasterCheef]

1 a better version of GanonDorf
2 Hades (Kid Icarus)
3 Albert Wesker
4 Frau Engel ( Wolfenstein )

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Not even pretty darn close. I can name several instances where all the nuances of his character are dropped and he’s written exactly like this.

Shadow’s such a delicate character. He just needs to be handled with care

A little off topic, but I love the idea of Infinite. He's all the memes of characters like Shadow and Cold Steel dialed up to 11, and they made him the foil of the player's official oc; Your character is a scaredy cat who learns to be brave in the face of overwhelming power, and Infinite is a character who, despite having reality warping powers is really just posturing the entire game because all of his actions are motivated by fear and anger. He believes that he needs power to be respected and he needs respect to stop people from hurting him. Sonic and Shadow both see right through this, which Infinite can't handle, and once your character finds his footing, he loses his effectiveness as a villain because he can't bully the main characters with his power anymore. And then of course Eggman steals the Phantom Ruby, almost destroys the world with it, Infinite has a realization that starts him down a path that will let him heal from his trauma. Fun times all around.

Too bad Sonic Forces's writing was nowhere near good enough to actually tell that story.

 

[AreJay25]

A little off topic, but I love the idea of Infinite. He's all the memes of characters like Shadow and Cold Steel dialed up to 11, and they made him the foil of the player's official oc; Your character is a scaredy cat who learns to be brave in the face of overwhelming power, and Infinite is a character who, despite having reality warping powers is really just posturing the entire game because all of his actions are motivated by fear and anger. He believes that he needs power to be respected and he needs respect to stop people from hurting him. Sonic and Shadow both see right through this, which Infinite can't handle, and once your character finds his footing, he loses his effectiveness as a villain because he can't bully the main characters with his power anymore. And then of course Eggman steals the Phantom Ruby, almost destroys the world with it, Infinite has a realization that starts him down a path that will let him heal from his trauma. Fun times all around.

Too bad Sonic Forces's writing was nowhere near good enough to actually tell that story.

What, you mean Infinite getting his ass kicked, having Shadow tell him "ur weak lol get good", and then crying about being called weak isn't peak storytelling?

 

[Noipoi]

What, you mean Infinite getting his ass kicked, having Shadow tell him "ur weak lol get good", and then crying about being called weak isn't peak storytelling?

Or what about the fact that the plot itself was clearly confused about whether or not Infinite was supposed to be a robot?

 

[jamesster445]

Who are your most wanted villains?

EMMI or Raven Beak (Maybe Sylux)
Kamek
Dark Matter
Porky
Hades or Medusa
Moss
Dragaux

Honestly I'm mostly satisfied when it comes to villains

 

[Gengar84]

At least Infinite has a cool theme song. I particularly liked LittleV’s cover.

Sonic Forces - Infinite (Full Version) [EPIC METAL COVER] (Little V)

⭐SUBSCRIBE➡https://www.youtube.com/subscription_center?add_user=littlevmillsHere's my Epic Metal Cover of the full version of Infinite from Sonic forces👇Dow...

m.youtube.com

 

[CannonStreak]

"Shadow ain't cool"
View attachment 391543
"Say WHAT"

"For his neutral special; Shadow wields a gun!"

Sorry, but I had to.

 

[ninjahmos]

Oh, and the Cowboy Hat could be one of his alts.

Or maybe his Sonic Adventure 2: Battle design.

 

[Laniv]

Who are your most wanted villains?

Mine are DJ Octavio, King Boo, and Pig Ganon

King Boo, Captain Syrup, Pig Ganon, and, oh I don't know, Dark Matter

People like to act as if Sonic is the biggest third party in the game by a country mile.

Well, you're right, he isn't.

He's the second biggest third party in the game by a country mile. (The real biggest is Minecraft)

But in all honesty, I think there are two reasons people are asking for another Sonic character:

1. After Sephiroth showed up, people figured that that barrier was broken (hence the uptick in Eggman demand)

2. Sonic has the closest ties to Nintendo of any third party in the game, besides the bear and bird. There's history there, history that, in the eyes of some, justifies another Sonic character

Anyways, I think if we do get another Sonic character, it should be Tails

 

[CannonStreak]

Who are your most wanted villains?

Mine are DJ Octavio, King Boo, and Pig Ganon

Wart from Super Mario Bros. 2, Captain Syrup, Dark Mater, DJ Octavio, Eggman, those guys.

 

[Louie G.]

Well, you're right, he isn't.

He's the second biggest third party in the game by a country mile. (The real biggest is Minecraft)

Well he’s technically the third biggest, like I said before Final Fantasy outsells the series and has a leg up in Smash’s home country. Arguable on a branding / notoriety front if Pac-Man outclasses him too, but there’s a lot less conversation to be had about additional Pac-Man characters.

And yeah, I understand why people want more Sonic of course. I think it’s warranted and next game I anticipate it may happen. It just gets a bit exhausting when I see Sonic treated as if it’s owed that additional content over other series, which rubs me the wrong way.

 

[CannonStreak]

I just hope that whichever Sonic character becomes playable next game, through DLC or base, we get more original Sonic music remixes with that character.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I just hope that whichever Sonic character becomes playable next game, through DLC or base, we get more original Sonic music remixes with that character.

Scrap Brain Zone...2!

 

[ninjahmos]

I just hope that whichever Sonic character becomes playable next game, through DLC or base, we get more original Sonic music remixes with that character.

I'd still love to hear remixes of classics such as Casino Night Zone and Flying Battery Zone.

 

[KillerCage]

Definitely off topic, but after watching Thorgi's latest "Build the Roster" I was inspired to make a Smash Bros roster based of KOF's three member team setup.

Spoiler: Here is the roster I compiled.

I was trying to create teams that share a theme and the characters in each team would be willing to work together. I was also trying to keep the base roster to 50 characters which is the same size as KOF 14's base roster. Third parties were relegated to DLC to be safe and somewhat pessimistic. It's definitely rough and there will need some fine-tuning for certain teams. I want like hear your critiques and advide.

If you made a Smash roster under KOF rules, what would it look like?

 

[ninjahmos]

Y'know what I'd also love to hear? A new Smash remix of Dream Chaser based on the F-Zero Climax version with elements of the F-Zero X and GP Legend versions.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This! We're not in the 90s anymore. Most of the people from my generation know Sonic from the Mario Olympics.

Okay, this is silly.

I too share the annoyance of people overplaying Sonic's importance, but this is the exact opposite.

You're severely underplaying his importance. The brand never went away. He still had multiple million seller games, even in his slump. He got multiple shows even during the bad years. He's a big advertising juggernaut with a near permanent spot in the cultural zeitgeist. He's always been a big deal with kids. Even your generation.

I can't believe I have to earnestly argue that about Sonic the Hedgehog but... I guess I do.

 

[Nickthebrick1]

Guys, speaking of Smash 6, do you think they'll try a story mode again? Would it be more like SE or WoL?

 

[NintenRob]

Guys, speaking of Smash 6, do you think they'll try a story mode again? Would it be more like SE or WoL?

I could see a story mode, but I don't it will like either of them. Maybe something more akin in Melee's adventure mode (but also not that)

Basically, I think they'll want to do something that involves a variety of platforming challenges with enemies like we see in Brawl, but without any of the cool cutscenes and story, like World of Light.


My personal prediction is a Metroidvania 'Great Maze' like experience.

 

[ninjahmos]

Guys, speaking of Smash 6, do you think they'll try a story mode again? Would it be more like SE or WoL?

Personally, I'd love it if they combined elements of Melee's Adventure Mode, Subspace Emissary and World of Light. But that's probably not gonna happen.

A Metroidvania-style Adventure Mode that's like a mix between the Great Cave Offensive and the Great Maze would be pretty cool.

 

[SPEN18]

Guys, speaking of Smash 6, do you think they'll try a story mode again? Would it be more like SE or WoL?

They'll almost certainly have some sort of adventure-based mode I would think, but whether or not that features a full-blown story, or any story at all really, is an open question.
If the base roster is (as I expect) larger than Smash 4, then a meaty story is unlikely, but a return to platforming gameplay or something entirely different than we've seen before is still possible even with a big roster. I don't think it will be exactly like anything we've gotten previously, but could combine various elements.

 

[Mamboo07]

Guys, speaking of Smash 6, do you think they'll try a story mode again?

Seems unlikely

 

[Noipoi]

Guys, speaking of Smash 6, do you think they'll try a story mode again? Would it be more like SE or WoL?

Considering the human race's epic biblical failure (leaking the Brawl cutscenes on Youtube) Sakurai probably won't go for another robust story mode again. But I also don't think they'll skimp on the story mode like in 4 either.

Maybe something like WoL, but expanded?

 

[SPEN18]

Metroidvania 'Great Maze' like experience

Yeah I think something like this is a good baseline expectation. SSE-style platforming with probably a very loose WoL-level plot, taking some cues from Smash Run with less linear progression and greater enemy variety and exploration. Could even mix in some of Ult's Event-match-style/scenario-based fights at certain points, if it fits.