Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Guynamednelson]

You give them too much credit.

Remember, there WERE people mad about Chrom, and he's still somewhat divisive because he's the fourth variant of one moveset.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In this OVA, Mega Man is very deliberately drawn based on the classic Inafune-style art which was seen in promotional material and the covers for the games in Japan, with similar childish and exaggerated proportions to his depiction in Smash but with much more freedom to animate and show some personality. I feel like the Smash depiction really misses a lot of the original character's charm and is weird in the context of Mega Man having always had dialogue and a range of facial expressions. I definitely feel a better middle ground could be struck.

So I skipped to a random portion and was greeted with Mega Man getting yeeted into a wall, Rush slamming him back into the wall, and then speaking full sentences.

Probably the funniest isolated sequence I could have found. Well, other than "you can't beat me because I'm a ninja".

 

[dream1ng]

You give them too much credit.

I mean, it's all relative. I don't think she'd get downvoted into oblivion like Byleth's trailer... but sure she's not going to be received as warmly as one of the more requested characters.

I think the less familiar the person is with the Smash (and FE) fanbase, the more likely they'd grumble. Ofc every character will have its detractors, but I think many of the Brawl-era favorites hold a place where the fanbase can appreciate getting them for the sake of the journey and those specific fanbases, even if not personally a supporter themselves.* Especially now that the first-party selection isn't exactly the peak of Nintendo's catalogue.

Those less attuned may see her as just another FE swordie... though, the reception would also be dictated by how many existing FE characters are cut.


*And then there's Geno

Edit: Still, I think Veronica could be another contender for a character that non-FE fans might be a bit more forgiving to since she would be mainly a pure spellcaster(and a dark spellcaster at that too, something we don't really have any of in Smash aside from Ganondorf and maybe Bayonetta) instead of another sword user.

I think there's a contingent that would abide by this, wherein her being fairly different moveset-wise would help, but tbh overall I disagree with this being the case, because Veronica is far less known overall than Lyn, and far less requested. So she'd, if anything, be seen much closer to a promo addition than an addition of a popular, albeit more thematically similar, character.

I think overall, but especially pre-release, there's far more judgment of the character themselves than the moveset.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

it wasn’t this one actually. Still interesting insight though!

The one I’m looking for talks about how Mega Man carries a sort of sadness with him, fighting other robots who are very much like his brothers, and that this sadness transforms him from a fun robot character into a more interesting hero with a hint of coolness. It was something like that. Still can’t find it even using quotations in my search. Oh well. I think the point’s been made.

It has me curious since I definitely recall reading that as well at the time, my best guess is that it's this interview from the Rockman 11 Production Note Book. There was a translation for it, but they appear to have deleted their account, so makes sense it couldn't be found by searching.

Spoiler: Scan and very rough DeepL translation

What is the justice of “Mega Man”?
P. Tsuchiya: When I started supervising the “Mega Man 11” brand a few years before I started development of the game, Nigure and I had this discussion.
P. Tsuchiya: When I started supervising the brand a few years before the development of “Mega Man 11”, Nigure and I had this discussion. The original purpose was to unify the wording, but one of the questions was “What is the purpose of ‘Mega Man’ to fight? The conclusion was “to protect peace. This is the principle of “Mega Man's” righteousness or action, and it is absolutely different from “defeating evil.
Uchi: Yes, indeed!
P. Tsuchiya: I am not actively involved in the world.
P. Tsuchiya: A Rockman is someone who stands up when someone has to do something about it, rather than taking an active part in the world. He is not “evil, quick, and deadly. I think this difference is the aesthetic of “Rockman. I mentioned earlier that he is a hero for young boys, and I was thinking that what I want to convey to those who will grow up in the future is to “defend rather than attack. Uchi: I think the first “Hero” was the first “Hero”.

Uchi: The boss of the first “Mega Man” was Light Numbers, right? In the “Dr. Light's Research Journal” in the “Mega Man Handbook” published by eCapcom, you can read about how Mega Man was born, and there are episodes where other Light Numbers are being developed. I think the sadness of the first film is that we have to defeat him, even though there is a scene in which they are close friends, like Cutman's educator. It's about determination and sadness. I think it was also because I didn't want to make my creator, Dr. Wright, sad.

I think the reason for this is because he did not want to make his creator, Dr. Wright, sad. I felt such kindness and compassion when I read this research diary.
P. Tsuchiya: Dr. Wright is a man who made a robot for the purpose of “coexistence of human and mouthbot.
Dr. Wright is a man who makes robots for the purpose of “coexistence of humans and bots,” not for making money or weapons. I think that Rock, before he became Mega Man, grew up watching his creator, Dr. Light, and when he said, “Please modify me,” his life purpose was set.
Uchi: Until then, I was just a helper.
Uchi: Until then, I was in a position to help him. From there, I think he went on to protect Dr. Wright and to keep the peace for everyone. ・・・・・・
P. Tsuchiya: This is just a thought.
P. Tsuchiya: I think it's fascinating that in such a simple world, there is such a wide range of possibilities for deep thinking.

This might not be it, but it's interesting. Not the biggest deal ever either way lol, points been made like you said.

So I skipped to a random portion and was greeted with Mega Man getting yeeted into a wall, Rush slamming him back into the wall, and then speaking full sentences.

Probably the funniest isolated sequence I could have found. Well, other than "you can't beat me because I'm a ninja".

It's quite a bizzare OVA story wise, it treats the Mega Man games as actual games in the real world, with the cast jumping out of the game world to help a real kid in Tokyo, and incorporates some elements from the game boy Mega Man V. Definitely an interesting novelty.

 

[Ivander]

I think there's a contingent that would abide by this, wherein her being fairly different moveset-wise would help, but tbh overall I disagree with this being the case, because Veronica is far less known overall than Lyn, and far less requested. So she'd, if anything, be seen much closer to a promo addition than an addition of a popular, albeit more thematically similar, character.

I think overall, but especially pre-release, there's far more judgment of the character themselves than the moveset.

I mean, her being a bit of a promo pick for Fire Emblem Heroes wouldn't exactly be wrong, considering how Fire Emblem Heroes is Nintendo's highest grossing mobile game aside from Pokemon GO, even beating Mario Kart Tour and the Animal Crossing mobile game by more than 2-3 times the amount. But it's kinda unfair to call her a full promo pick when Fire Emblem Heroes has been out for more than 7 years since it's release in 2017, Veronica has been a major character for almost all the Book Chapters aside from Book 5 and Book 7 and she is the only Fire Emblem Heroes character to make a full-blown appearance in a Fire Emblem console title, being Fire Emblem Engage.

Sure, her being more unknown than Lyn and being another Fire Emblem character doesn't exactly help her earn favor among those who aren't a fan of Fire Emblem and it's already big roster, but her moveset and portrayal being much more different from the other FE characters could help her earn favor overtime for people to open up to her more. Incineroar and Terry were eventually able to become more favourable with players over time after the initial reactions to their reveal. So an FE character being notably different from the rest of the FE characters could probably help their favor or at least make more non-FE fans look at them with more indifference than hate.

 

[Kirbeh]

Re: spirits

Very late on this but I hope we go back to regular event matches next game. Spirit battles were a fun novelty for a little while but I can't say I actually liked or remember that many.

The sheer volume of them didn't really help as a lot of similar ones just blended into each other and felt repetitive.

As collectibles though, I think reusing existing art assets was a good call.

I'm also on board with turning them into trading cards next time. Being able to crop the art means more opportunities for characters that would otherwise get passed over.

Plus, a mini game based on said cards sounds like it could be pretty interesting.

Re: rock

I do like his current design in Smash but I'd much prefer if they gave him a new more expressive model with the MM7/8 proportions.

That and give him the Marth treatment. And by that I mean give him 3 derivative characters in the form of Proto, Bass, and X. Obviously this isn't going to happen but it'd be nice.

I'd like to see a second unique rep in the form of either Roll, Zero or Tron Bonne but I don't really see any of those happening either.

Re: FE

Honestly I don't think the western Smash community is ever going to let FE catch a break. You'd need to gut the series and not add any newcomers to make the FE detractors happy. Not even Lyn is a safe choice imo

 

[HyperSomari64]

We are at least grateful of not living in the timeline where Megaman has his deep, raspy voice from Captain N. (And saying Mega at any darn point)

 

[Perkilator]

Delzethin just remade Zelda:

 

[Guynamednelson]

X. Obviously this isn't going to happen

Well of course that isn't because Smash didn't give X the Chibi Sprite in 3D Treatment. Just look at how he looks in Mega Man's FS, he actually has a chest.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Just because boss moves are mapped to controller inputs (presumably for debugging only) doesn't mean they take almost as much work as a fighter. I seriously doubt that.

And I seriously doubt that Nintendo would create a fully animated model for Bison, animate all of his normals and specials, and then go "You know what? Adding hit animations for this guy is too much work. Better make this a Boss instead of a playable Fighter."

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Well of course that isn't because Smash didn't give X the Chibi Sprite in 3D Treatment. Just look at how he looks in Mega Man's FS, he actually has a chest.

Well...neither did Proto Man, but people still think he's possible.

I personally wouldn't make X an Echo Fighter of Mega Man though.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

And I seriously doubt that Nintendo would create a fully animated model for Bison, animate all of his normals and specials, and then go "You know what? Adding hit animations for this guy is too much work. Better make this a Boss instead of a playable Fighter."

You make it sound like people are saying the Smash team would try to make Bison playable then suddenly mid development make him a boss instead, because making him a fighter is too hard, like what?

I don’t think they would make Bison a boss either, but that doesn’t change the fact that the statement “bosses take almost as much work as a fighter” is wrong, which is the point I and Gorgonzales were disputing. Also suggesting hit animations are all that would be needed to make him a fully realized playable fighter is wrong, and you know it.

 

[Guynamednelson]

and you know it.

Implying Darth knows anything about how game development works.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don’t think they would make Bison a boss either, but that doesn’t change the fact that the statement “bosses take almost as much work as a fighter” is wrong

I disagree. I think making a Boss version of Bison would require at least 80% of the work required to make him a Fighter.

Also suggesting hit animations are all that would be needed to make him a fully realized playable fighter is wrong, and you know it.

I don't know that. A Boss version of Bison would likely have a similar moveset to how he fights in other fighting games.

That means he'd have normals, specials, aerials and throws. At that point, all you're missing is hit animations, dash attacks and balancing.

Implying Darth knows anything about how game development works.

Implying any of the rest of you armchair developers do.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let me speak as a Game Developer myself. They're speaking the truth.

Calling them as simple as the same requirements shows a blatant misunderstanding of Game Development in itself. The fact one requires more work is pretty much hard evidence that the thought makes zero sense. It's not based upon logic. You don't need to be a Game Developer to even see one has clearly more animations and content overall. It's common sense.

Rarely are characters scrapped and reused to be some kind of Boss role. While this can happen if they can't make the concept work(this may be why Ridley is a Stage Hazard in Smash 4, even, but even then, that's far more likely gameplay testing. Giga Bowser is very similar in that regard). In order for that to happen, Nintendo has to license M. Bison as a fully playable character, fail to make it work, and then re-license him entirely as a boss. They have to redo negotiations for any new roles, whether it's a changed role or an add-on. That's how licensing actually works.

Being Capcom USA is pretty open with giving materials, he wouldn't be hard to license, nor do they need a proof of concept to realize him. He's either going to be a Boss or a Fighter from the start realistically. Not both in some way. He's not 1st party or partially owned by Nintendo. That's way too much legwork for an illogical scenario. But more importantly, it costs too much to change things mid-development. He could be considered as Playable but became a Boss. That's a far more realistic scenario at that point.

For a very fun example of how things are not "the same work", take a look at Conductor Link in Spirit Tracks. This isn't the same kind of Toon Link model. It has significantly less animations, and is lower res. That means they have to rework a lot of it to make it a costume. Which, while isn't that hard, still requires actual extra work. As do any Echo compared to an Alternate Costume. I even linked that some time back. It was noted that every Echo cannot be treated as a "glorified alt" because they have too much extra work put into them(that said, yes, some do really feel like one. Especially Daisy). But feelings do not equal fact. None of the Echoes play identically to their counterpart. That's part of the point behind the split. Meaningful differences however? Well, no, that's not always the case. 99.99999% is different enough for an extra slot, after all.

 

[dream1ng]

I mean, her being a bit of a promo pick for Fire Emblem Heroes wouldn't exactly be wrong, considering how Fire Emblem Heroes is Nintendo's highest grossing mobile game aside from Pokemon GO, even beating Mario Kart Tour and the Animal Crossing mobile game by more than 2-3 times the amount. But it's kinda unfair to call her a full promo pick when Fire Emblem Heroes has been out for more than 7 years since it's release in 2017, Veronica has been a major character for almost all the Book Chapters aside from Book 5 and Book 7 and she is the only Fire Emblem Heroes character to make a full-blown appearance in a Fire Emblem console title, being Fire Emblem Engage.

Well I didn't call her a full promo pick, I said she'd probably be seen as within that realm. Not by everyone, but like you said, Heroes is still ongoing.

Sure, her being more unknown than Lyn and being another Fire Emblem character doesn't exactly help her earn favor among those who aren't a fan of Fire Emblem and it's already big roster, but her moveset and portrayal being much more different from the other FE characters could help her earn favor overtime for people to open up to her more. Incineroar and Terry were eventually able to become more favourable with players over time after the initial reactions to their reveal. So an FE character being notably different from the rest of the FE characters could probably help their favor or at least make more non-FE fans look at them with more indifference than hate.

The FE backlash isn't generally from the FE fans anyway. It's not like they'd be the ones complaining about Lyn either.

And I'm not sold on the premise of being unique moveset-wise greatly freeing her from prejudice. People would, of course, get used to her, and the complaints would gradually decrease, but the least popular FE characters on the roster are among the more unique ones, more or less. Byleth and Corrin are among the least popular characters on the roster, and Robin sort of floats around the periphery, overlooked. It's not because of swords. Sure, the swords don't help the complaints, but it's simply because they keep adding promotional FE characters instead of characters from other series.

Meanwhile Marth, Roy, Ike and Lucina have fairly boring or derivative movesets by the later standards, but were added earlier, so weren't subject to that criticism. Even Chrom, who is another clone mostly based from Marth's original framework, received less backlash than the two adjacent FE reveals. It helps greatly to actually be desired.

So yes, Veronica being a spellcaster would alleviate some backlash... but much would remain. At least in terms of comparative unpopularity. She'd still be from FE, she'd still be seen by many as promotional, she'd still be a character no one really asked for. You know people would also get their jimmies rustled because she's from a mobile game, successful as it might be, and "mainline" as IS might (usually) treat it.

Meanwhile Lyn might have a sword, but she's basically the only FE character the fanbase still asks for. Apart from the token expected current one, who will rotate out rather than endure based on themselves as a character. And it's not like she would be a clone, either.

I mean, he's not from FE, but Isaac has a sword. Isaac has a sword, and is from a jrpg. He has a sword, is from a jrpg, is medieval-themed, has an anime art style, and is from a comparatively small series. But because the fanbase actually wants him, people would overlook all of that.

So people may gripe about sword characters, and anime, but really they're complaining about sword characters and anime they don't want. Like, people may have complained about Pyra on that basis, but you didn't hear so much directed at Sephiroth or Sora in the way of "too many swords", did you.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

That means he'd have normals, specials, aerials and throws. At that point, all you're missing is hit animations, dash attacks and balancing.

And swimming, and holding and throwing items, and swinging weapon type items like Star Rod and the swords and stuff, and multiple taunts, and victory animations, and a losing animation, and things like picking up crates or barrels, Home Run Bat I'm pretty sure is a different one because of its wind-up, tumble animations, sleep animation and waking animation from things like Jigglypuff's Sing, ledge animations since Street Fighter doesn't do ledges, dizzy animation for shield break (though Street Fighter does have those, so that's probably covered)... All this is just off the top of my head.

While I agree that he'd probably be pretty similar whichever role he's in since M. Bison has been in both roles before I believe, there's definitely more animations at play here for a full-fledged Smash fighter than if he was a boss.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I disagree. I think making a Boss version of Bison would require at least 80% of the work required to make him a Fighter.

Let’s ignore M. Bison for a moment here. You said bosses in general take almost as much work as a fighter. That’s what I took issue with.

I don't know that. A Boss version of Bison would likely have a similar moveset to how he fights in other fighting games.

That means he'd have normals, specials, aerials and throws. At that point, all you're missing is hit animations, dash attacks and balancing.

I guess there is a discussion to be had about how many moves and movement options a boss version of M. Bison would be given compared to a fighter, I personally don’t think he would have almost as many moves and movement options as a playable fighter, but it’s all theoretical. There is also more to a fighter than everything you mentioned, a number of which were already brought up by other users.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If it took just as much work to make a boss as it did a fighter, why did we need to wait until Ultimate for playable Ridley? He should've had all the necessary assets in Brawl thanks to Subspace, but in reality Subspace Ridley lacked:

swimming, and holding and throwing items, and swinging weapon type items like Star Rod and the swords and stuff, and multiple taunts, and victory animations, and a losing animation, and things like picking up crates or barrels, Home Run Bat I'm pretty sure is a different one because of its wind-up, tumble animations, sleep animation and waking animation from things like Jigglypuff's Sing, ledge animations since Street Fighter doesn't do ledges, dizzy animation for shield break

 

[DarthEnderX]

Let me speak as a Game Developer myself.

No thanks. I don't believe any anonymous message board user who claims to just happen to be an expert in what's being discussed.

And I should know, I'm actually legendary game developer Warren Spector.

There is also more to a fighter than everything you mentioned, a number of which were already brought up by other users.

Yes. And I believe it all adds up to about 20% of the character's development.

If it took just as much work to make a boss as it did a fighter, why did we need to wait until Ultimate for playable Ridley?

Because Sakurai, straight up, didn't want Ridley to be a Fighter. He wanted him to be a Boss.

He only caved on making him a Fighter because of the Ballot.

 

[Pupp135]

Hey all. After last night’s feedback, I’ve decided to try this again. Feel free to ignore this post if you want to. I’ve just put in a spoiler so it doesn’t permeate this page.

Spoiler: Revised Roster

So, I’ve taken yesterday’s feedback, and wanted to explain this roster a bit better.

Spoiler: Starting Roster (31 characters)

View attachment 389589
I decided to construct a starting roster, before you unlock all characters. 31 was a decent number, as I didn’t want to make the Miis unlockable, and to have a nice balance of series here. Not much to say here.

Spoiler: Full Base Roster (72 characters)

View attachment 389590
View attachment 389591
I’ve tried to keep as many characters as I can, while also not wanting the roster to get too big.

So, the echoes, which it seems the collective Smash fandom abhors with a burning passion.

Funky Kong I thought would be a neat option. With no K. Rool, or DKC game in sight, I figured a lower-priority character ought to do it.

Pneuma gives some depth to Pyra/Mythra. I talked about this in the SSB6 creation thread.

Octoling is a classic clone, with different weapons, but similar functions. Different enough, but still similar.

Overall, I think the distribution here is better compared to before. The newcomers aren’t as ‘hype’ as Ultimate, but it’s good to show off Nintendo’s more recent endeavours, plus some fan demand. I didn’t just want this to be Ultimate AGAIN.

Zelda retains Toon Link, which helps. Xenoblade double dipped, and Animal Crossing and Splatoon get a new face each.

Newcomers:
83. Paper Mario
84. Impa
85. Ring Fit Trainee
86. Noah
80e. Pneuma
87. Isaac
88. Chun-Li
64e. Octoling
89. Dr. Eggman
90. Meowscarda
91. Bandana Dee
92. Tom Nook
93. Alear
02e. Funky Kong
94. Rayman
95. Waluigi

I recommend someone set up a thread dedicated to mock-up rosters like this. People would like to submit their ideas, predictions, and wishlists, and I feel like it might get boring having to keep posting it here.

While there a few things that I would have approached differently based on personal preference (e.g. I’d rather keep Pokemon Trainer as a whole), the roster is solid. I like seeing Ice Climbers staying on the roster, and Isaac is one of my most wanted characters. The roster primarily seems to add safe additions along with a curveball or two like Funky Kong.

While giving my feedback, I’ll promote this thread that is currently used to showcase SSB6 rosters based on one our your previous comments on having a thread dedicated to SSB6 rosters.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Yes. And I believe it all adds up to about 20% of the character's development.

Is there a reason you think 20% specifically, and is this just in reference to how you personally believe M. Bison would be implemented as a boss, or do you think most/all bosses take 80% of the development of a fighter?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think there's a bit of a clash in arguments. To hopefully get people on the same page, here's what I think DarthEnderX's argument is:

• A fighting game character as a boss would have that character's entire move set since...well fighting game bosses have access to their whole move set. Implementing all of that would be about the same amount of work as a playable character since again: entire move set.

He's not entirely wrong since if you're making M. Bison's entire kit functional, why not just do it as a playable character? It'd even lower the amount of attacks you'd have to implement since Super Smash Bros. has less buttons.

If he were to make M. Bison (or Geese or Rugal or something) a boss, I think the more likely implementation of them would be for them to be given only what is necessary to recreate the experience. Much like how the Guile Assist Trophy just turtles, the fighting game bosses could mimic the habits of their AI from whichever game they're pulling from.

Going off some footage of Street Fighter Alpha 3, M. Bison seems to pick random options depending on distance:

• Close Range: Medium Kick, Crouching Heavy Kick, Psycho Teleport, or some kinda Psycho powered hand sweep thingy. Very rarely he can also throw you.
• Mid Range: Head Press, Somersault Skull Driver, Psycho Shot, or jump in with a Heavy Punch,.
• Either Range: Psycho Crusher if super is available.

Altogether that's nine moves and a Final Smash, which isn't enough for a fighter. Granted, this is an oversimplified approximation of how his AI seems to work, so I wouldn't take the specifics to heart, but I think the idea of just taking the few moves that the boss AI spams is pretty sound.

This is only tangentially related, but if a character like Akuma or Geese were made playable at any point, I think it's extremely likely that a super busted version of them would also be implemented as a boss character. It just seems like a very Sakurai thing to do.

 

[DarthEnderX]

A fighting game character as a boss would have that character's entire move set

That's the crux of it.

But I'd expand that to any Fighter-sized character. There's simply no reason for a human sized character to be a Boss instead of a Fighter because of the amount of work that goes into making a Boss.

This isn't an Assist Trophies with 2 moves. It's a waste of effort going that far, and then not just going the extra mile to make them a Fighter.

So there's no reason for someone like Wesker, or Vergil, or Majima to be a Boss instead of a Fighter either.

Is there a reason you think 20% specifically, and is this just in reference to how you personally believe M. Bison would be implemented as a boss, or do you think most/all bosses take 80% of the development of a fighter?

Depends on the Boss. A lot of them don't have aerials. Or...only have aerials. Some have Grabs, some don't.

 

[jamesster445]

OK, hypothetical question:

If Sakurai ever decides to pass on the torch for the Smash series… do you think it could be handled well enough by the current Kirby director at HAL Laboratory?

How does Kumazaki feel about fighting games?

 

[Wonder Smash]

Well, I was going to say he talks in the NES games too, but taking a look, I guess he really doesn't. He's got a single line in Mega Man 6. Pretty sure he's had several shows where he spoke by then, but he wasn't quite as talkative as I remember in the games until Mega Man 7.

Also Roll doesn't say anything until Mega Man 8 unless you're Japanese, which I suppose makes her the last major character to get dialogue save for characters that can't talk like Rush.

I was saying he didn't have a voice, especially during gameplay.

 

[dream1ng]

Whoever thinks an NPC designed for one, maybe two stages with a handful of programmed attacks is basically 4/5 the amount of work as a full character that has to have their entire kit tested and balanced on all stages, against all characters and items, with all statuses, for every move, and all the qa that takes... really doesn't know what they're on about.

If six clones is one original character, five bosses isn't four. That's absurd. That's what happens when you just make up numbers.

OK, hypothetical question:

If Sakurai ever decides to pass on the torch for the Smash series… do you think it could be handled well enough by the current Kirby director at HAL Laboratory?

I'm almost sure establishing Studio S, as opposed to the continued ad hoc, per-game assembling of devs is part of the plan to gradually have Sakurai recede in his active role to one of more delegation and oversight, to fully leaving it to them. So I suspect someone from that team succeeds him as director.

Also, after checking, the current Kirby director didn't even join HAL until after Melee, so he has no Smash development experience.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ultimately, M. Bison will never take as much work to become a Boss as he would to be a playable character. This isn't really worth debating on. It's a factual statement. This is not Street Fighter where they generally have the same command moves with maybe a tiny few secret A.I. moves. These "Bosses" are often playable with very little differences beyond unavailable moves. Do note that M. Bison as a Boss could take more work than a playable character in Street Fighter too, due to more animations/abilities. In Smash, the opposite is true.

Bosses in Smash Bros. do not work the same remotely. At least, certain ones. Metal Mario, Giant DK, and Giga Bowser are your M. Bison to a degree. Differences being, in order; one has more weight, one is bigger, and one has unique properties that no playable character can replicate, but mostly is like a normal character. This is why they are given regular Character files. The Polygons and Wire Frames and Alloys work the same overall way. Heck, the Mii Fighters take this to its full point, as they are purely default when faced in other modes(bar Cruel, but that's the same as other Fighting Team being super-powered).

Then you have Master Hand, which at one point had the same controls for testing reasons only. He's only playable for a short moment as a watered-down variant, and is nothing like other proper playable characters. This is the normal bosses Smash has had for the most part. These are why they are not playable. They don't get "thrown off" the platform either(this is why Giga Bowser is noted as being similar to a playable character in Ultimate. He's your actual M. Bison of the game. Unique properties, but only unbalanced in terms of being playable at worst. Also, these characters playable in various VS games without issues. But they only have HP Bars. Guess what Smash doesn't inherently use for normal characters?) That's why these comparisons just don't work.

And that's ignoring how Licensing matters, etc. Or the fact that no boss has special animations they need to deal with. Giga Bowser is very specific to certain stages. Though to be fair, even in that case, he may have the ability to swim(if his huge size doesn't have him automatically die, respectively. That is something that can happen in a small stage for anyone who played as him in Melee. He's very bad in Moving Stages). That said, Melee didn't have swimming either, so it'd make sense he wouldn't have it. He cannot swim in Brawl either. It's something they could add, but that'd be only if he was properly playable. So that's already a new animation to make(slightly easier since Bowser can swim).

Incidentally, it wouldn't hurt to find a full list of animation totals that would be needed for a playable character, so the percentage can be compared. 80% is extremely unlikely in itself, but without anyone crunching the numbers, it's not exactly the same kind of proof that can always convince someone.

 

[SharkLord]

If Master Hand is any indication, a boss character would probably have four inputs for the "normal" button and four inputs for the "special" button. So, probably not nearly as intensive as an entire moveset.

On that note, if we got Dracula as a playable boss I think it'd be cool to give him the Order of Ecclesia/Dead Cells walk cycle, since a stationary boss that can only teleport might get a bit awkward. I dunno, side tangent, it just kinda popped in my head

 

[DarthEnderX]

Incidentally, it wouldn't hurt to find a full list of animation totals that would be needed for a playable character, so the percentage can be compared.

That would only tell you the % of animations completed though, not the total amount of work for the Fighter. As it wouldn't take into account other things a Boss would have completed. Like the model itself, voice acting, sound effects, etc. Or things the Boss wouldn't have completed, like game balancing.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Something to keep in mind here;

Bosses will never play on anything but designated stages. They are not balanced against the entirety of said stages, which already eliminates a ton of work required. This already shows a massive difference in work required.

Them being fought against most characters(you originally couldn't even face some yet, mind you, with certain characters) is also reasonable evidence they weren't all balanced against everyone. This is also implied with a Boss Rush being specific to Sephiroth instead. If not the entire reason for it not being an actual Mode. It was never accounted for. And that makes sense. The game was rushed.

No matter how you go about it, Bosses do not have three victory animations, the same kind of taunts, have noted to not be playable like Giga Bowser can be(and he was deliberately a clone of Bowser, in the same way Metal Mario and Giant DK are clones of Mario and DK), and thus, wouldn't have as many animations. Master Hand is about the only other one to show some normal controls, but he's just as limited.

It's also notable that Giga Bowser has tons of unused animations in some games, which explains why he's treated more like a player character. Swimming is not one of those, meaning it's only really Melee where he could act akin to one. He still cannot be thrown, like the rest of the Bosses, which also means that's more animations not taken into account.

Either way, no, we can easily pinpoint every animation required. As well as just as easily find data on them having certain animations. This isn't some hard game to figure out. The data exists. We don't even have to use Ultimate either, as more games were datamined even further. The details are easy to find. Either way, there's no point in continuing. You're moving the goalposts now and just dismissing anything we say. There is zero point in continuing.

-----------------

So moving on, I've been having some trouble figuring out some Taunts for one of my character wants. I got the Victory Animations figured out for Brian(Quest 64), but solely one taunt. While respectively the rest of the moveset has shown to be difficult to conceptualize beyond "referencing", as being an RPG Hero means that him having a more interesting moveset that at least attempts to use one of his unique mechanics helps him stick out, that's been surprisingly easier. Ironically so.

 

[fogbadge]

Something to keep in mind here;

Bosses will never play on anything but designated stages. They are not balanced against the entirety of said stages, which already eliminates a ton of work required. This already shows a massive difference in work required.

Them being fought against most characters(you originally couldn't even face some yet, mind you, with certain characters) is also reasonable evidence they weren't all balanced against everyone. This is also implied with a Boss Rush being specific to Sephiroth instead. If not the entire reason for it not being an actual Mode. It was never accounted for. And that makes sense. The game was rushed.

No matter how you go about it, Bosses do not have three victory animations, the same kind of taunts, have noted to not be playable like Giga Bowser can be(and he was deliberately a clone of Bowser, in the same way Metal Mario and Giant DK are clones of Mario and DK), and thus, wouldn't have as many animations. Master Hand is about the only other one to show some normal controls, but he's just as limited.

It's also notable that Giga Bowser has tons of unused animations in some games, which explains why he's treated more like a player character. Swimming is not one of those, meaning it's only really Melee where he could act akin to one. He still cannot be thrown, like the rest of the Bosses, which also means that's more animations not taken into account.

Either way, no, we can easily pinpoint every animation required. As well as just as easily find data on them having certain animations. This isn't some hard game to figure out. The data exists. We don't even have to use Ultimate either, as more games were datamined even further. The details are easy to find. Either way, there's no point in continuing. You're moving the goalposts now and just dismissing anything we say. There is zero point in continuing.

-----------------

So moving on, I've been having some trouble figuring out some Taunts for one of my character wants. I got the Victory Animations figured out for Brian(Quest 64), but solely one taunt. While respectively the rest of the moveset has shown to be difficult to conceptualize beyond "referencing", as being an RPG Hero means that him having a more interesting moveset that at least attempts to use one of his unique mechanics helps him stick out, that's been surprisingly easier. Ironically so.

Could some of the victory poses also work as taunts?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Could some of the victory poses also work as taunts?

Possibly, but I'd rather not repeat them.

Taunt 1: He lifts his staff above his head, and circles it, then slams it into the ground.
Taunt 2:
Taunt 3:
Victory Animation 1: He spins his staff and jumps up, via his classic winning taunt from Quest 64.
Victory Animation 2: He puts his hand up to his staff and his staff is in a horizontal position, then creates a Red X that falls onto him, basically backfiring a Silence spell
and casting it on himself.
Victory Animation 3: He quickly runs, then falls on his face. His staff stands up by itself, and glows a bright yellow, then finally dances for a little bit.
Costumes

That's where I'm at. Albeit, this is an odd one, since you'd think I've had more taunts despite having a Final Smash created for said moveset. XD

 

[JOJONumber691]

It's a cute idea, although it might end up cluttering Olimar a bit more than needed. I'd like them to just focus on making his existing Pikmin plucking more fun and intuitive. At that point it's probably best to just start building a character around Pikmin 4's new innovations.

I'm 100% down for Shepherd and Oatchi though - I haven't played Pikmin 4 yet but I've been told Oatchi can also operate as a captain? So when I've suggested more of a team-up scenario I got the vibe from fans that it may not be necessary, but I'd definitely be curious how they would choose to design around that. That was my first impression for how he could be implemented, at least. Otherwise I just think Shepherd seems cool anyway.

Shepherd is the GOAT! I understand your concern though. I think it would be cool to see either way. Hopefully Olimar gets updated regardless of Moss.

Shoutout to Phosphorus Lyn for her impressive Smash popularity. Maybe it doesn't seem like that much compared to like Waluigi and Isaac, but it's
1) stuck around despite her always getting deconfirmed towards the beginning and with her being severely "outdated" in terms of new FE reps - meaning she really doesn't have a chance outside of popularity (or a new game)
2) so enduring that despite all we already have, she's basically the sole FE character the non-FE crowd wouldn't be (that) mad about getting.

That's no small feat.

Personally, I wish she would've been the one selected for Brawl. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Ike, I like him fine, I get why he was picked, but she was my preference. Also I think not having Ike would've still resulted in a slower, stronger sword moveset probably going to Chrom in 4.

Can I tell you about Minerva? The badass armored battle axe riding a ****ing dragon? The first Wyvern unit in FE and a genuinely really cool character who is also important to FE3’s plot. There is no way in hell the non-FE crowd would hate her since she is so different from everyone else in Smash currently. Awesome fan art by KaaChunChaan on Reddit illustrates my point PERFECTLY! Also she would be a female superheavy and that would make me and a couple others pretty happy tbh.

 

[fogbadge]

Possibly, but I'd rather not repeat them.

Taunt 1: He lifts his staff above his head, and circles it, then slams it into the ground.
Taunt 2:
Taunt 3:
Victory Animation 1: He spins his staff and jumps up, via his classic winning taunt from Quest 64.
Victory Animation 2: He puts his hand up to his staff and his staff is in a horizontal position, then creates a Red X that falls onto him, basically backfiring a Silence spell
and casting it on himself.
Victory Animation 3: He quickly runs, then falls on his face. His staff stands up by itself, and glows a bright yellow, then finally dances for a little bit.
Costumes

That's where I'm at. Albeit, this is an odd one, since you'd think I've had more taunts despite having a Final Smash created for said moveset. XD

well I can’t help you I’m afraid, I’d say victory one would also work as a taunt but you don’t want to repeat

 

[Gengar84]

If we do get Lyn as a playable fighter, I hope she has an alt for her promotion outfit from Fire Emblem Warriors. I think the fur collar was a really cool design choice.

Either way, I think she could be a lot of fun. Smash could use another character with a samurai-esque fighting style beyond just Sephiroth and Lyn is voiced by one of my favorite voice actresses (Wendee Lee) so it would be cool to hear her in Smash.

 

[Will]

A fighter-sized boss would only beg the question of why they aren’t playable.

Hugo isn’t colossal, but he’s the biggest I can think of as a more suitable boss than M. Bison.

If we do get Lyn as a playable fighter, I hope she has an alt for her promotion outfit from Fire Emblem Warriors. I think the fur collar was a really cool design choice.

View attachment 389649

Either way, I think she could be a lot of fun. Smash could use another character with a samurai-esque fighting style beyond just Sephiroth and Lyn is voiced by one of my favorite voice actresses (Wendee Lee) so it would be cool to hear her in Smash.

Lyn is likely the legacy character if Fire Emblem doesn’t use Engage/Genealogy of the Holy War for a new character. I can’t realistically imagine them making another choice.

I love Hector but I can’t cope anymore.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Hugo isn’t colossal, but he’s the biggest I can think of as a more suitable boss than M. Bison.

It's hard to say since they haven't recently been in the same game, but I think Abigail is bigger.

Not that boss Abigail would be good or make sense...

 

[Guynamednelson]

Lyn is voiced by one of my favorite voice actresses (Wendee Lee)

Fun fact: Wendee Lee is credited in SSBU's credits for voicing someone, but it's not Lyn since they're still using Lani Minella's voice clips. So who could it be?

 

[Will]

It's hard to say since they haven't recently been in the same game, but I think Abigail is bigger.

Not that boss Abigail would be good or make sense...

I haven’t played SF since IV, but I don’t disbelieve it. Hugo annoyed the **** out of me in both of his appearances, and to me, in a Smash Bros. setting, the big dude with super armor and throws that take half your health scream “Smash boss”.