Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[CannonStreak]

No. I think everyone coming back was a great idea, but it's very costly to do again. I'd love it to happen, but cutting it down a bit is fine. I think it held its favorable niche~

I was expecting yes, because the reasons you gave rather go with me thinking it SHOULD remain a unique case, if I asked that correctly.

 

[Louie G.]

This is a guy who is not taking sides, by the way. That said, chill, Louie G.

I’m not going to respond to anything about this after this message, as not to extend any unnecessary conflict, but I’m perfectly fine. Wonder Smash was very clearly egging a user on who said nothing confrontational otherwise. It was rude.

I tried to shed some light on this because it felt very immature. If I and everyone else let it be then that just implies this behavior should continue. It’s not my job to mod, but I try to be a voice of reason. I feel like I usually do a pretty good job of that and I don’t believe I did anything wrong here.

 

[CannonStreak]

I’m not going to respond to anything about this after this message, as not to extend any unnecessary conflict, but I’m perfectly fine. Wonder Smash was very clearly egging a user on who said nothing confrontational otherwise. It was rude.

I tried to shed some light on this because it felt very immature. If I and everyone else let it be then that just implies this behavior should continue. It’s not my job to mod, but I try to be a voice of reason. I feel like I usually do a pretty good job of that.

I try to be a voice of reason, too. I would say something else, but that would be in line with what might as well be happening with Wonder Smash now, so I won't say it.

 

[kirbstr]

Ultimate's a unique case where with everyone back, it had far more room to go hog wild on DLC, which mind you, wasn't a thing when the Base Game was decided upon. Everyone, including Piranha Plant, were decided upon far later on when DLC was pretty much told by Nintendo to Sakurai that they want to do it.

This gave tons of room for new characters, but don't forget Nintendo chose all the DLC except PP respectively. So they wanting to go more for 3rd parties to strength relationships(in some cases) makes a lot of sense.

Which I 100% don't mind in retrospect, I just hope it doesn't happen for a 2nd time with how many IPs we now have. Also Ultimate bringing everyone back meant we only got 6ish newcomers in the base game, so 2/3rds of the newcomers were DLC and thus mostly new 3rd party IPs.

Also iirc I don't think Nintendo directly told Sakurai which characters to put in, but gave him a list and let him select from it as he saw fit.

 

[dream1ng]

Oh...so you're salty that I didn't mention Master Chief, huh?

You know, I wasn't the only one that didn't mention Master Chief. It's a shame that that's getting you riled up.

It shouldn't be this hard to just answer me without trying to twist my motivation or act indignant I would question.

It makes you look very defensive, which makes it seem like you don't want to be candid, which will lead people to infer the worst intepretation.

Just be straight. Were you trying to be objective or not?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Talking about some Jimmy Lee, Riki and Joe Musashi while Master Chief, Kratos, Nathan Drake, Gordon Freeman, Ezio, Tails/Knuckles, etc just big chilling I guess.

In those instances, it's probably more about the games being iconic than the specific characters.

Like, Shinobi is a very iconic game. It's just Joe is probably known better as "the Shinobi ninja" than as Joe Musashi.

Double Dragon and River City Ransom are likewise extremely iconic games. Even if most of NA probably knows Kunio and Riki better as Alex and Ryan.


In my case, I know most people don't know Bill Rizer by name, but they know "the Contra guys". Because they know Contra.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Only one person sounds mad right now, and it’s not dream1ng. You’re acting very provocative.

Stop lying. I have no reason to be mad and you don't need to hide the fact that he's making a big issue out of nothing.

They were just asking you if you were being objective or not. Master Chief was one of a few names they mentioned and, not for nothing, probably one of the most obvious answers to the initial question. I’m not sure why you’re so reactionary toward that response, but some of your choices are understandably questionable when discussing specifically the most widely recognized characters.

So I’ll rephrase their initial question. Are these a list of iconic characters that you specifically want in Smash, or in general who you believe are the most recognizable characters absent from the roster?

You know...I have an answer for that. I honestly do but here's something I'm not going to tolerate; you speaking for him. That's going to have to stop. He's more than capable of speaking for himself and giving his own reasons for doing it. So I will give my reasons but you're going to have to dip out. I'm only going to speak to him on certain things in this case.

 

[CannonStreak]

It shouldn't be this hard to just answer me without trying to twist my motivation or act indignant I would question.

It makes you look very defensive, which makes it seem like you don't want to be candid, which will lead people to infer the worst intepretation.

Just be straight. Were you trying to be objective or not?

As a mere suggestion...

Just let it go. You and Wonder Smash I don't think he was doing anything wrong there anyway, not until the conversation was brought up. I don't think there is much to gain here, either.

 

[Schnee117]

As a mere suggestion...

Just let it go. You and Wonder Smash I don't think he was doing anything wrong there anyway, not until the conversation was brought up. I don't think there is much to gain here, either.

Please stop trying to mini mod and deepthroating your foot in the process.

 

[CannonStreak]

Please stop trying to mini mod and deepthroating your foot in the process.

No, Schnee. That was, as I said, just a suggestion. I was trying to be a voice of reason. If I tried to be an actual mod, I would do much more than that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I was expecting yes, because the reasons you gave rather go with me thinking it SHOULD remain a unique case, if I asked that correctly.

Ah, that's what you meant. "Yes" in that case. Sorry for the confusion.

Which I 100% don't mind in retrospect, I just hope it doesn't happen for a 2nd time with how many IPs we now have. Also Ultimate bringing everyone back meant we only got 6ish newcomers in the base game, so 2/3rds of the newcomers were DLC and thus mostly new 3rd party IPs.

Also iirc I don't think Nintendo directly told Sakurai which characters to put in, but gave him a list and let him select from it as he saw fit.

Nope. Sakurai confirmed it multiple times he didn't choose the characters, Nintendo did. There is no list. The closest possible realistically is that Nintendo concocted a list and asked Sakurai about each character individually. This actually matches his overall statements. We don't know exactly how many Sakurai denied(for whatever possible reason), if any. It's pretty much hard confirmed that Sakurai chose no one directly himself.

 

[dream1ng]

In those instances, it's probably more about the games being iconic than the specific characters.

Like, Shinobi is a very iconic game. It's just Joe is probably known better as "the Shinobi ninja" than as Joe Musashi.

Double Dragon and River City Ransom are likewise extremely iconic games. Even if most of NA probably knows Riki better as Ryan than as Riki.

Yeah but dude, Shinobi over Halo? Uncharted? Half-Life? Assassin's Creed?

 

[CannonStreak]

Ah, that's what you meant. "Yes" in that case. Sorry for the confusion.

Don't worry about it. It's all good.

 

[Speed Weed]

I'm opposed to Joe Musashi in Smash, not because of any distaste for Shinobi but because Hotsuma is cooler

 

[kirbstr]

Ah, that's what you meant. "Yes" in that case. Sorry for the confusion.


Nope. Sakurai confirmed it multiple times he didn't choose the characters, Nintendo did. There is no list. The closest possible realistically is that Nintendo concocted a list and asked Sakurai about each character individually. This actually matches his overall statements. We don't know exactly how many Sakurai denied(for whatever possible reason), if any. It's pretty much hard confirmed that Sakurai chose no one directly himself.

Huh, interesting. I'm surprised he agreed to that considering how creatives of his type normally are about having people over their shoulder on big decisions.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yeah but dude, Shinobi over Halo? Uncharted? Half-Life? Assassin's Creed?

Ooh, AC and Uncharted. Those are good ones.

Realistically, anyone that's had a live-action TV series or hollywood movie is probably iconic enough for Smash.

 

[Wonder Smash]

If you just said “idk, I forgot” in the first place about those other characters I don’t think there would have been an argument.

Master Chief not being on a list shouldn't have led to an argument in the first place. He was mentioned in almost every other list but there's big fuss just because he wasn't in mine? That's ridiculous!

 

[Ivander]

Considering they're bird people, would that make her more muscular, or less?

Well, most of their muscle is around their pecs. So where do you think all that extra muscle went?

 

[cashregister9]

My only true exposure to Shinobi is my brain vividly remembering seeing an ad for the 3DS Shinobi game in a Nintendo Power and thinking it looked cool as ****.

I still haven't bought or played it, but kid me really wanted it.

Also Project X Zone

 

[DarthEnderX]

Smash does have a deficit of Western icons.

Which COULD be remedied, because half of them are owned by Microsoft these days. And Microsoft already works with Smash.

My only exposure really to Shinobi is my brain vividly remembering seeing an ad for the 3DS Shinobi game in a Nintendo Power and thinking it looked cool as ****.

The original Shinobi was a monster in the arcades when it first came out.

Everybody knew that bonus stage.

Shinobi bonus stage Perfect score

Shinobi bonus stage Sega Arcade classic

www.youtube.com

 

[dream1ng]

Master Chief not being on a list shouldn't have led to an argument in the first place. He was mentioned in almost every other list but he wasn't in mine and there's a big fuss? That's ridiculous!

People aren't stupid man, they know that's not what this is about.

 

[Noipoi]

Things are getting heated in the Next Smash thread

 

[Schnee117]

No, Schnee. That was, as I said, just a suggestion. I was trying to be a voice of reason. If I tried to be an actual mod, I would do much more than that.

You're trying to be the "voice of reason" whilst covering for a guy who went "you're just salty" when asked why his list is the way it is so sorry if I don't believe you.

Master Chief not being on a list shouldn't have led to an argument in the first place. He was mentioned in almost every other list but there's big fuss just because he wasn't in mine? That's ridiculous!

Because your list implies Joe Musashi, Billy and Jimmy and Riki and Kunio are more iconic than characters that aren't there, including Chief.
Any sensible person would take issue with that list as presented and any reasonable person would give a straight answer when asked about it instead of going "you're just salty"

Learn to take disagreements normally instead of getting weirdly heated over it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Huh, interesting. I'm surprised he agreed to that considering how creatives of his type normally are about having people over their shoulder on big decisions.

It's not his game. He's just hired to direct it.

The interview even confirmed not only when DLC was decided upon(Summer 2017, if I remember the date right. The article's a bit hard to find), but it was Nintendo who decided it should happen, not Sakurai. It doesn't mean he couldn't have had more creative control either. He just chooses not to because it's a massive game too. Letting them do more puts a lot less stress on him. Having them control most of the DLC is a good thing too. It makes it way easier to figure out who to grab as a character, it doesn't force him to look too hard into "what games are easy to promote", and it gives him a very nice structure to work with. The man's getting older as time goes on. The project is really huge.

He still had the control to say yes or no to anyone they chose. That was also noted to us. Ultimately, he wanted to work with them in that regard. We don't know exactly how much Nintendo really "demanded" things. Despite deciding upon stuff, obviously he agreed to it. He's aware DLC is really popular(and in fact, it's why Smash 4 had stuff beyond Mewtwo in the end. While he thought about it, as implied by some work done on Ryu and Lucas, he had no idea how well Mewtwo would get sales in some way until it happened. Boom. It was a success. Easily a good decision to stick with it. Now it's even easier. Also, take a look at how Ultimate has around double the DLC than 4 did. A lot easier with another person choosing much of it).

 

[Wonder Smash]

Because your list implies Joe Musashi, Billy and Jimmy and Riki and Kunio are more iconic than characters that aren't there, including Chief.
Any sensible person would take issue with that list as presented and any reasonable person would give a straight answer when asked about it instead of going "you're just salty"

Learn to take disagreements normally instead of getting weirdly heated over it.

No, it didn't imply that. Stop lying. I didn't even mention Master Chief in my post. And besides, "just on top of your head". Apparently, that part FLEW over your head.

People aren't stupid man, they know that's not what this is about.

Oh, that's exactly what it is. Don't try to deny it now.

 

[CannonStreak]

You're trying to be the "voice of reason" whilst covering for a guy who went "you're just salty" when asked why his list is the way it is so sorry if I don't believe you.



Because your list implies Joe Musashi, Billy and Jimmy and Riki and Kunio are more iconic than characters that aren't there, including Chief.
Any sensible person would take issue with that list as presented and any reasonable person would give a straight answer when asked about it instead of going "you're just salty"

Learn to take disagreements normally instead of getting weirdly heated over it.

facepalm

First off, make fun of me if you will, but I see Wonder Smash as rather a friend, and it is not bad for friends to stick up for each other. Plus, he may be a bit heated, but I don't think he brought this up in the first place.

Not to mention, (I can say this would be the case for Dream1ing truly, so I will leave him out), what you just said to Wonder implies that you are bothered by his list. It is just a personal list. What if someone got on your case for who you included into it? If you did not experience any of that, then I can't say you are even the right person to call Wonder, or anyone out for their preferences. We should be more respectful to each other, and not get mad over the slightest detail of anyone's list.

So with that, don't think you are in the right by doing something like that.

EDIT: Besides, I did tell Wonder to chill, along with Louie and Dream1ing.

 

[Louie G.]

You know...I have an answer for that. I honestly do but here's something I'm not going to tolerate; you speaking for him. That's going to have to stop. He's more than capable of speaking for himself and giving his own reasons for doing it. So I will give my reasons but you're going to have to dip out. I'm only going to speak to him on certain things in this case.

This is such a pretentious thing to say, but you’ll get your wish anyway because I don’t have much desire to keep talking with you. I didn’t quite see it as speaking on behalf of someone else when it was all either self evident or already stated, I read it more as you taking it in bad faith and wanting to land your gotcha about Master Chief.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Let's change the subject. Who wants to hear of random Smash related dreams I've had over the years that range from prophetic ( ) to bizarre?

 

[CannonStreak]

Let's change the subject. Who wants to hear of random Smash related dreams I've had over the years that range from prophetic ( ) to bizarre?

I am sure I do. I don't seem to remember any off the bat, but my dreams are always weird.

 

[Schnee117]

I didn't even mention Master Chief in my post. And besides, "off the top of your head". Apparently, that part FLEW over your heads.

You still have yet to actually answer what was asked of you here:

It shouldn't be this hard to just answer me without trying to twist my motivation or act indignant I would question.

It makes you look very defensive, which makes it seem like you don't want to be candid, which will lead people to infer the worst intepretation.

Just be straight. Were you trying to be objective or not?

So am I to assume you have no interest in actually explaining your rationale?

Not to mention, (I can say this would be the case for Dream1ing truly, so I will leave him out), what you just said to Wonder implies that you are bothered by his list. It is just a personal list. What if someone got on your case for who you included into it? If you did not experience any of that, then I can't say you are even the right person to call Wonder, or anyone out for their preferences. We should be more respectful to each other, and not get mad over the slightest detail of anyone's list.

So with that, don't think you are in the right by doing something like that.

I would react like a normal person and explain my rationale for what I picked because I'm being asked about my list by someone asking about it in a reasonable manner, like I'm more than used to people disagreeing with me on things lmao

 

[Wonder Smash]

You still have yet to actually answer what was asked of you here:

So am I to assume you have no interest in actually explaining your rationale?

Or maybe because I just didn't see the question? Always keep in mind, there's more than one reason why things happen or didn't happen.

I would react like a normal person and explain my rationale for what I picked because I'm being asked about my list by someone asking about it in a reasonable manner, like I'm more than used to people disagreeing with me on things lmao

If only that actually happened...

It shouldn't be this hard to just answer me without trying to twist my motivation or act indignant I would question.

It makes you look very defensive, which makes it seem like you don't want to be candid, which will lead people to infer the worst intepretation.

Just be straight. Were you trying to be objective or not?

If you weren't trying to single me out and saying some weird things instead of just being straight forward with your question, you wouldn't have come off that way. It makes it very difficult to understand your intentions.

Most iconic characters not in Smash? Yes I was.

Never said who was more iconic than who, though.

 

[fogbadge]

Let's change the subject. Who wants to hear of random Smash related dreams I've had over the years that range from prophetic ( ) to bizarre?

alright but it better not be to weird cause I want mine to be the weirdest

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Let me get the prophetic one out of the way.

Weeks before the April 2014 Smash Direct, I drempt that I was browsing the Smash For website and at the left most side on the row of characters at the bottom of the page was Greninja with a 3D render similar to the Sugimori art.

Needless to say, my mind was pretty damn close, which is freaky with how soon it was.

 

[dream1ng]

Most iconic characters not in Smash? Yes I was.

Never said who was more iconic than who, though.

Alright. Well, I disagree.

Originally I was going to say that gives me a better idea of where you're coming from, but I actually learned a lot more from all that happened afterwards.

 

[CannonStreak]

I would react like a normal person and explain my rationale for what I picked because I'm being asked about my list by someone asking about it in a reasonable manner, like I'm more than used to people disagreeing with me on things lmao

Well, I respect that then! I like to be reasonable and calm myself.

One last thing, I did message Wonder to try to be cooler and not get too worked up. I may have defended him in a way, but I had to take Dream1ng into account in terms of defending too. Even if I did not defend Dream1ng, I acknowledged that he was not doing much harm as, well, you know.

The thing is...I don't necessarily like taking sides in cases like these.

EDIT: Before I forgot, I apologize for the discourse between us just now, and any misunderstandings.

 

[Noipoi]

The thing is...I don't necessarily like taking sides in cases like these.

You don’t gotta

Just let nature take its course, man. If two adults wanna get into an internet scrap over a children’s fighting game I say let them, it’ll sort itself out eventually.

Worse comes to worse a moderator (who’s probably younger than the involved parties) will force them to stop, and they have to listen if they wanna keep wasting their time on message boards.

No one was demanding you to interject, brother. You don’t gotta make it your business

 

[fogbadge]

Let me get the prophetic one out of the way.

Weeks before the April 2014 Smash Direct, I drempt that I was browsing the Smash For website and at the left most side on the row of characters at the bottom of the page was Greninja with a 3D render similar to the Sugimori art.

Needless to say, my mind was pretty damn close, which is freaky with how soon it was.

I once had a website related smash dream but it never came true. First the wonderful 101 landed on a Nintendoland stage and then I saw wonder red’s newcomer banner on the smash 4 site

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Sadly, Greninja was the only one that a dream actually happened afterwards, but still.


I had two minor Melee related ones (during For times so no hints or anything).

One, I was playing Melee and went into Target Test for fun. But oddly, I was playing as Totodile. Can't for the life of me remember how it played like though.

The other, I was looking through some magazine and saw an image of Classic Mode where Rouge the Bat was fighting the Hands. The only amusing detail I remember was her stock icon being ripped right from Adventure 2.


I'm spreading out my posts so that I don't make a single massive wall of text .

 

[CannonStreak]

You don’t gotta

Just let nature take its course, man. If two adults wanna get into an internet scrap over a children’s fighting game I say let them, it’ll sort itself out eventually.

Worse comes to worse a moderator (who’s probably younger than the involved parties) will force them to stop, and they have to listen if they wanna keep wasting their time on message boards.

No one was demanding you to interject, brother. You don’t gotta make it your business

Understood. Though I got that message a bit too late, I had it earlier in a way when I contacted Louie G. through private message and he understood. Not to mention, he told me something similar to what you said.

Thanks, though!

 

[Louie G.]

Unfortunately I don't think I had any prophetic Smash dreams, just a bunch of dreams I woke up from disappointed.

I did get pretty lucky in drawing King K. Rool fanart the night before his reveal, and tweeting about Isabelle as a unique character a day before hers. So mine isn't the unconscious mind, instead just a few happy manifestations.