Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

But at the same time, Double Dragon does have more name recognition and the bigger influence.

Only in NA. Kunio is WAY more recognized in Japan.

Even River City have features that first started in Double Dragon.

Almost all of DDs features started in Kunio-kun.

The original DD arcade game was practically a 2-player reskin of the original Kunio-kun arcade game.

Are popularity and relevancy really such big factors for Smash newcomers?

That's subjective.

Personally, I prefer iconicness and historical significance.

 

[ninjahmos]

If Lara Croft ever makes it into Smash, I'm hoping they not only use her OG design, but also include music from the Tomb Raider series, especially Nathan McCree's compositions. Just imagine Smash remixes of the Tomb Raider Theme and the T-Rex Theme...

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Well, I would add that the "6 months" thing is probably not an rule too take too seriously, because we know characters can be add way past that. I mean, the same game where this quotes come from add Duck hunt of all characters. And we know popular characters such as Banjo in Ultimate can get in despite not being relevant. So I don't think this situation applies to much to Geno, who has a huge demand.

I think the 6 months thing apply more to "less popular character". Stuff like Alear for example would probably miss the boat if the next Smash hasn't already started development. But if the character has high demand or Sakurai likes the idea like Duck hunt, he could still do it.

Bear in mind Duck Hunt was the token "surprise character". Those tend to bend the norm.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Only in NA. Kunio is WAY more recognized in Japan.

That's no surprise. But that's also why Double Dragon was created; to be more appealing outside of Japan.

Almost all of DDs features started in Kunio-kun.

The original DD arcade game was practically a 2-player reskin of the original Kunio-kun arcade game.

And then River City Ransom (as well other beat'em ups) took after Double Dragon, featuring both 2-player co-op and the ability to use items.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yes it is. Here's an actual quote from Sakurai on Fire emblem characters in Smash 4:

Interviewer: In Smash for 3DS/ Wii U, there are far more Fire Emblem characters on the roster than in previous games. How did you go about the selection process for these characters?

Sakurai: It really depends on the situation. For example, Roy and Robin were included for completely different reasons. It also depends on luck, of course. Industry trends around the time when development begins is a pretty big factor. I started development on Smash for 3DS/ Wii U right after I’d wrapped up Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Fire Emblem Awakening was released one month after Uprising. So what’s popular around the time when I begin designing the game is important. Characters are almost never added after I’ve completed the project plan for Smash.

(...)

Interviewer: But that means Awakening’s release schedule was pretty fortuitous.

Sakurai: Yes, that was the case. For example, if Awakening was released six months later, Robin may not have made it in, and if it was six months early, they might not have even been considered.

Interviewer: Was Lucina in a similar situation?

Sakurai: Yes, that applies to Lucina as well.

Source of the interview

You know, this quote always confuses me a little bit.

I completely understand why Robin could have missed the boat if he was six months later. He straight up would have been introduced too late.

But six months earlier? Why would that matter that much? Several characters like Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer and Shulk had their only releases (during that time period ) significantly earlier that Awakening would have if it was six months earlier. You could argue that Xenoblade and Wii Fit had another title in development, but Fire Emblem probably would have been "saved" by that point and Punch Out!! had nothing.

I don't know why only six months would have been a death knell for Robin and Lucina. They still would have been relevant.

 

[Jave]

Well, I would add that the "6 months" thing is probably not an rule too take too seriously, because we know characters can be add way past that. I mean, the same game where this quotes come from add Duck hunt of all characters. And we know popular characters such as Banjo in Ultimate can get in despite not being relevant. So I don't think this situation applies to much to Geno, who has a huge demand.

I think the 6 months thing apply more to "less popular character". Stuff like Alear for example would probably miss the boat if the next Smash hasn't already started development. But if the character has high demand or Sakurai likes the idea like Duck hunt, he could still do it.

Alear I feel is in an interesting situation in that the timing isn't the best but the moveset potential is just really good to push them into consideration. Circumstances have also changed these past few years like with the existence of FE Heroes, who keeps characters relevant longer and Engage has gotten a lot of spotlight on it lately, like with several Engage banners and a character type and mechanic based exclusively (and named!) after Engage. So I suppose how much is Intelligent Systems trying to push the character also a factor.

While I'm obviously not saying Alear is a lock, I feel the arguments in favor of them definitely have merit. That, and there are way more factors to consider when arguing a character's chances.

 

[Schnee117]

Kunio-kun or Billy and Jimmy?

Doesn't matter Uncle Ben, Tyrant Rave

 

[HyperSomari64]

Kunio-kun or Billy and Jimmy?

Doesn't matter Uncle Ben, Tyrant Rave

I'm more of a Ragna the Bloodedge man, but i respect yu.

 

[Curious Villager]

By the way i noticed a big lack of something!?
Were the heck are the chu chus from windwaker in smash:
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They are one of the most iconic zelda enemy designs! And chu chus appear in a lot of games yet these enemys got no love!
I imagine if they appeared as an item (in diffrent colors) and could be thrown or sliced to get jelly that you canm heal yourself with!

Or just make them a smash run enemy!

I could see the Chuchu's acting a bit like how they did in Hyrule Warriors where they act a bit like punching bags that reflect back on you if you attack them with a non hammer attack.
Which I guess was basically what Wobbuffet did back in Melee...

 

[DarthEnderX]

Kunio-kun or Billy and Jimmy?

Doesn't matter Uncle Ben, Tyrant Rave

Sadly, yes. Sol is probably first in line for ArcSys reps.

 

[Gengar84]

Sadly, yes. Sol is probably first in line for ArcSys reps.

Sol is cool too though. I’m curious what he’d look like in Smash graphical style. I’ve never seen him outside of his cel shaded look (which is awesome). They didn’t keep Toon Link’s cel shaded graphics so I’m not really expecting them to for Sol.

 

[DarthEnderX]

They didn’t keep Toon Link’s cel shaded graphics so I’m not really expecting them to for Sol.

Unless...ALL of Smash 6 is cel-shaded!

 

[CapitaineCrash]

You know, this quote always confuses me a little bit.

I completely understand why Robin could have missed the boat if he was six months later. He straight up would have been introduced too late.

But six months earlier? Why would that matter that much? Several characters like Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer and Shulk had their only releases (during that time period ) significantly earlier that Awakening would have if it was six months earlier. You could argue that Xenoblade and Wii Fit had another title in development, but Fire Emblem probably would have been "saved" by that point and Punch Out!! had nothing.

I don't know why only six months would have been a death knell for Robin and Lucina. They still would have been relevant.

I think that's true and like I said in a later post, I don't think the 6 month thing is to be taken that seriously. Like yes, relevancy matters, but I don't think that the 6 months is like a cut-off date. Characters are chosen for other reason than relevancy. Shulk was a fairly big request in Japan and Sakurai is a fan of the franchise. Little Mac was also a fairly big request. Wii fit was probably added because 1) Huge popularity of the franchise and was easily recognisable by many and 2) Sakurai had a fun idea for the moveset and thought that Fitness and Yoga moves lend itself naturally for a fighting game. Maybe the quote imply that Robin would have missed the boat because Chrom was the popular request and not him, so it if wasn't for relevancy Robin didn't have a lot going for him.

 

[Gengar84]

Unless...ALL of Smash 6 is cel-shaded!

I’d be down for that. I love Dragon Ball Fighter Z’s and Guilty Gears’ graphical style. It would be fun to see other Smash characters in a similar style.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

No Baiken, no buy-ken. :V

 

[Wonder Smash]

Sadly, yes. Sol is probably first in line for ArcSys reps.

But that doesn't mean he'll come by himself.

 

[Will]

But that doesn't mean he'll come by himself.

I think that could only be true if he were a base game Newcomer

 

[Gengar84]

I think that could only be true if he were a base game Newcomer

We got both Banjo and Steve as DLC

 

[Will]

We got both Banjo and Steve as DLC

I thought he meant as in a Simon / Richter bundle

 

[ninjahmos]

What if Smash had more alternate costumes and not just palette swaps?

 

[7NATOR]

You know, this quote always confuses me a little bit.

I completely understand why Robin could have missed the boat if he was six months later. He straight up would have been introduced too late.

But six months earlier? Why would that matter that much? Several characters like Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer and Shulk had their only releases (during that time period ) significantly earlier that Awakening would have if it was six months earlier. You could argue that Xenoblade and Wii Fit had another title in development, but Fire Emblem probably would have been "saved" by that point and Punch Out!! had nothing.

I don't know why only six months would have been a death knell for Robin and Lucina. They still would have been relevant.

Honestly I think it's because how Fire Emblem characters get chosen (As well as Pokemon) is very different from how other Nintendo Characters get chosen. These are the only franchises where Relevancy has been a Vital factor in some of these character's inclusions, to the point where they've had Spots reserved for characters that haven't existed yet

Part of it might be because Fire Emblem and Pokemon are not 100% Owned Nintendo I.Ps it seems, as Intelligent Systems and Creatures/Gamefreak/Pokemon Company have stake in the Ownership of these I.Ps as well. Intelligent Systems also isn't apparently actually owned by Nintendo, they just have such a strong partnership that it seems like they do.

So the other Side of the coin in this case might have Relevancy as a Bigger factor than usual for their characters in Smash.

What if Smash had more alternate costumes and not just palette swaps?

I could see them making more DLC Money then Mii Costumes since Mii's aren't the most popular characters ever. Of course there would be some in base, and maybe some Free Costumes, but If they sold some as DLC I think that would be reasonable as well

I think Hardware issues is been why Alternate Costumes haven't been a bigger thing in the series, but if the Next Console is pretty powerful, I think we could see Alternate costumes for characters being Frequent

 

[Wonder Smash]

I thought he meant as in a Simon / Richter bundle

I meant as in he probably won't be the only ASW character in the roster.

 

[SPEN18]

You know, this quote always confuses me a little bit.

I completely understand why Robin could have missed the boat if he was six months later. He straight up would have been introduced too late.

But six months earlier? Why would that matter that much? Several characters like Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer and Shulk had their only releases (during that time period ) significantly earlier that Awakening would have if it was six months earlier. You could argue that Xenoblade and Wii Fit had another title in development, but Fire Emblem probably would have been "saved" by that point and Punch Out!! had nothing.

I don't know why only six months would have been a death knell for Robin and Lucina. They still would have been relevant.

The literal interpretation of it is so confounding, I wonder if he was just exaggerating or simply throwing out numbers without thinking carefully about it. If it's true in that literal sense, it's definitely difficult to swallow.

 

[ninjahmos]

Y'know, in terms of anime fighters, I think it'd be pretty cool to see Demitri & Morrigan from Darkstalkers in Smash.

But we all know that Sol & Ky from Guilty Gear probably have a much better chance of getting in.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I've been playing tons of Indie games lately and it makes me want more Indie game content in Smash.

If not as fighters, I'd be happy if more showed up as Assist Trophies and if some music from more Indie games got included ala Megalovania.

 

[superprincess]

Y'all are misinterpreting the 6 months "rule" I think. How I interpreted it, it only applies to characters that aren't particularly longevous. For example, the 6 months "rule" didn't apply to Rosalina or Bowser Jr. because those are characters that are gonna be around for a long time with the Mario brand and are evergreen. It would apply to Robin and Lucina because FE has a rotating cast and the next game would obviously not feature them as protagonists.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Y'all are misinterpreting the 6 months "rule" I think. How I interpreted it, it only applies to characters that aren't particularly longevous. For example, the 6 months "rule" didn't apply to Rosalina or Bowser Jr. because those are characters that are gonna be around for a long time with the Mario brand and are evergreen. It would apply to Robin and Lucina because FE has a rotating cast and the next game would obviously not feature them as protagonists.

Well yes, obviously. Our confusion was never due to the evergreen characters.

Our confusion came from characters like Shulk, or Little Mac. Those aren't evergreen characters. Yet they were given longer periods of time to draw from.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Xenoblade might've not been known to have a sequel coming with an obvious protagonist change. But I'm not sure on the times between the games. I don't really follow the series. That said, if a series without a changing cast comes up, it makes sense they'd be given a bit more leeway, since relevancy isn't based upon "latest new person".

Punch-Out!! never had a protagonist change, so it's easy to draw from one option. That, and lots of requests, respectively.

 

[superprincess]

Well yes, obviously. Our confusion was never due to the evergreen characters.

Our confusion came from characters like Shulk, or Little Mac. Those aren't evergreen characters. Yet they were given longer periods of time to draw from.

Little Mac had prior legacy and fan demand backing him up.

Shulk's game had recently been at the forefront of a fan campaign, which resulted in it finally being released in Europe and the US. Which was barely over 6 months before Sakurai crafted the project plan. Also as someone mentioned, Xenoblade only had one game at the time so including Shulk was really the only way to go, unlike FE character #3, who could be from any of the previous FE games.

 

[SPEN18]

I'd like to think that, even without the Wii revival, we would've still (at least eventually) gotten Little Mac, on the back of his popularity.

 

[superprincess]

I'd like to think that, even without the Wii revival, we would've still (at least eventually) gotten Little Mac, on the back of his popularity.

I don't really care about him or Punch-Out, but I absolutely agree. They still reference the original game to this day. The Wii one? Not so much. It kinda just came and went.

 

[DarthEnderX]

We got both Banjo and Steve as DLC

And SquareEnix had THREE characters in Ultimate and they were all in the DLC.

What if Smash had more alternate costumes and not just palette swaps?

That'd be good.

 

[Louie G.]

I'd like to think that, even without the Wii revival, we would've still (at least eventually) gotten Little Mac, on the back of his popularity.

His popularity was already pretty substantial going into Smash 4, so had he been excluded I’m sure he would have performed well in the ballot (I would have voted for him, at least). Hard to say other than that, but I do think Punch-Out would remain a pretty obvious old school pick with a lot of pull. Like superprincess said, Punch-Out is definitely one of the more prestigious and frequently referenced classic Nintendo games outside of the big guns.

My only concern would have been that Ultimate didn’t have a whole lot of space for characters like that. But with how much Sakurai leaned into his arcade roots for his moveset I feel like he was treated more as a “retro” pick than a contemporary Punch-Out Wii rep. He was probably on the table already.

 

[SPEN18]

His popularity was already pretty substantial going into Smash 4, so had he been excluded I’m sure he would have performed well in the ballot (I would have voted for him, at least). Hard to say other than that, but I do think Punch-Out would remain a pretty obvious old school pick with a lot of pull. Like superprincess said, Punch-Out is definitely one of the more prestigious and frequently referenced classic Nintendo games outside of the big guns.

My only concern would have been that Ultimate didn’t have a whole lot of space for characters like that. But with how much Sakurai leaned into his arcade roots for his moveset I feel like he was treated more as a “retro” pick than a contemporary Punch-Out Wii rep. He was probably on the table already.

Agreed that chalking Mac's inclusion up to solely the Wii revival isn't looking at the whole story. His popularity and retro status were huge.

Though one thing that I'd wonder about his hypothetical ballot performance is whether he'd be hurt from potentially being an AT again were he not a base Smash 4 character.

 

[Stratos]

Abe from the Oddworld series wasn't put as a fighting character in PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale, not even in PlayStation All-Stars Island, but I would like him to come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series. Also another character from the Oddworld series is Stranger, the protagonist from the game Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath, who has a crossbow that shoots various small creatures each with some abilities, one of these creatures is Zappfly which shoots electricity , but it doesn't fire itself and instead waits to fill its energy. As for the Stranger himself, he initially wears bipedal pants, but at some point the villains who had captured him discovered that the Stranger was a centaur-like creature. After all a centaur-like creature as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series would be something original.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Abe from the Oddworld series wasn't put as a fighting character in PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale, not even in PlayStation All-Stars Island, but I would like him to come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series.

I mean, he's kind of a pacifist in his own games.

Stranger is a much better example of an Oddworld fight. With much better moveset options as well.

 

[chinkuru]

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I hope they stop doing this in the next game; by "this", I mean retro stages that retain their original appearance (and in some cases, 1:1 layout).

It's a cool novelty but in my opinion the charm has almost completely worn off, now that we have a large number of them and they honestly don't feel like anything special. It's even worse if the layout is ported over directly (Mario Bros., 75m, Dreamland GB) because... why would you do that? Direct translations of layouts from other platformers into Smash do not work. You have to take some liberties or else it ends up being a very not-fun time.

I want retro stages, but I want their visuals and assets to be modernized just like the retro characters (Icies, Duck Hunt, ROB) are. It brings the retro stuff to the same level as the modern stuff which is awesome. They lead to much more visually distinct and memorable stages, these are some of my favorite examples. Stuff like Fountain of Dreams being translated into a dreamlike, ethereal palace and the Balloon Fight fish being translated into a vicious monster with bloodshot eyes is the kind of stuff I live for.

Imagine a DK stage based on 25m but with a layout kind of resembling it (say, a main platform for the base and three long soft platforms stacked one above another and tilted at angles) instead of literally being the exact layout of 25m. And the visuals are updated with details like paint chipping on the metallic girders, and maybe even a modernized take on DK's original design. That would be so cool!

View attachment 387141View attachment 387142
(Credit for that last pic goes to Curiomatic.)

But no, instead we get a literal 75m with no changes to its layout to compensate for the fact that it's in a game where most of the cast isn't designed to platform around. No changes to its visuals either. Altogether, you end up with a stage that's only remembered for how bad it is.

Is there a final version of that 3D modeling of Miyamoto's Donkey Kong? I love it !

 

[Gorgonzales]

Is there a final version of that 3D modeling of Miyamoto's Donkey Kong? I love it !

I love it too, but unfortunately I don't think the final version has ever been shown off. The in-progress version shown here can only be seen in Curiomatic's channel trailer:

If it's any consolation, Project Pipe Dream on Insta and Twitter is headed by one of Curiomatic's members. It's a project to reimagine old Mario enemies and assets into the modern Mario style and they've put out some great stuff. It more than scratches my itch for this kind of content.

 

[Stratos]

I mean, he's kind of a pacifist in his own games.

Stranger is a much better example of an Oddworld fight. With much better moveset options as well.

Yes I agree, but despite this, Abe continues to be the protagonist of the Oddworld series and the mascot of the company that made him the Oddworld Inhabitants company whose Abe represents the company's philosophy and values. Abe is the iconic character of the Oddworld series.

 

[CannonStreak]

I love it too, but unfortunately I don't think the final version has ever been shown off. The in-progress version shown here can only be seen in Curiomatic's channel trailer:

If it's any consolation, Project Pipe Dream on Insta and Twitter is headed by one of Curiomatic's members. It's a project to reimagine old Mario enemies and assets into the modern Mario style and they've put out some great stuff. It more than scratches my itch for this kind of content.

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Hey, is that Harry Hedgehog on the top left of the first image?

I hear he was a reference to Sonic in some way, who is from Sega, who Nintendo was competing against at the time.