Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Al-kīmiyā']

More like Sakurai probably wanted the puppet gimmick and looked for a recent character he could shoehorn into it. Also, why the **** do people want a sports moveset or a Peach clone so badly?

 

[GoodGrief741]

People probably want Daisy the character, not necessarily any specific moveset archetype. With crossover fighting games, most people find the appeal in a certain character appearing, rather than in unique movesets.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Then why not a Peach costume?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...Because Daisy isn't really all that much like Peach beyond their origins? There's a reason the costume is no more than a reference instead of an alt. She also doesn't work too well as a clone for a similar reason. There can be some similarities(including the skeletal model), but they are quite different in personality. The issue with Daisy is she's lacking in finding a unique moveset that doesn't really feel fit for others. Toad has similar issues, but has a few notable unique abilities(and I don't mean Captain Toad).

 

[GoodGrief741]

Because a costume isn’t... a playable character? The difference isn’t hard to grasp, is it?

It’s not like anybody who supports Daisy thinks she doesn’t have any possible moveset potential aside from being a Peach clone, it’s just that the character appeals to them because of the character itself, and after that they get to thinking and go ‘yeah, they could have a unique moveset, all the more reason for them to make it in’.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Because a costume isn’t... a playable character? The difference isn’t hard to grasp, is it?

I don't understand why it matters. If she doesn't have an interesting moveset of her own, why should she be anything more than an alternate costume? And why is that a problem?

 

[GoodGrief741]

I don't understand why it matters. If she doesn't have an interesting moveset of her own, why should she be anything more than an alternate costume? And why is that a problem?

The argument could be made that she could have an interesting moveset, even if that isn’t the primary reason to support Daisy.

Just picture any character you really want (or used to want, if you’re lucky and they got in). Now picture that instead of making it as a playable character, they get in as a costume for a character they sort of superficially resemble. Hardly the same thing, eh? Therein lies the problem.

People play fighting games for the characters. Nobody plays a fighting game for the alternate costumes.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The argument could be made that she could have an interesting moveset, even if that isn’t the primary reason to support Daisy.

Just picture any character you really want (or used to want, if you’re lucky and they got in). Now picture that instead of making it as a playable character, they get in as a costume for a character they sort of superficially resemble. Hardly the same thing, eh? Therein lies the problem.

People play fighting games for the characters. Nobody plays a fighting game for the alternate costumes.

If they have the same basic stats and abilities, I don't really care if they're an alternate costume or not.

 

[GoodGrief741]

That’s great! If we were talking about same stats and abilities. Nobody’s demanding Pink Gold Peach be made into a separate character.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

So how exactly does Daisy differ from Peach?

 

[GoodGrief741]

Look, it’s fine if you think they’re the same, I’m not about to go play Devil’s Advocate. None of them ever do anything in main series games anyways, so if Sakurai could pull a moveset out of thin air for Peach he probably could for Daisy. My point was that no matter what character, it’s pretty easy to see that for any given character’s fanbase, there’s a world of difference between being a playable character and an alternate costume.

I know you don’t want an example of what the difference is between Daisy and Peach (you can go to Daisy’s thread for that), but pick whatever example you can grasp best. Ninten versus Ness, Black Shadow versus Captain Falcon, Chrom versus Ike. It’s easy to see them as just costume fodder, but that’s also reductive to the characters’ potential. A fan knows the difference and will probably gladly tell you if that’s what you want, but it was never my intention to push Daisy on you.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And Peach even had stuff she did on her own, like the Fan attack from Super Mario RPG, her own floating mechanic(which is her unique thing). A lot of it was pulled from other games, though to be fair, I don't think anybody else has used a Parasol, another weapon from the RPG's as is. She had material to pull from, though a lot was made up.

Daisy doesn't do this stuff, and it's a matter of finding material to make her stand out, moreso that another Mario character couldn't easily do it(hence the issue with the Sports moveset, as it fits Waluigi in some ways better, being he was created for the Sports games).

 

[YoshiandToad]

So how exactly does Daisy differ from Peach?

Eh, I'll bite;

Peach:
Floats with magic.
Uses veggies.
Has heart based powers.
Is the monarch in charge of the Toads
Is a lightweight character in all her appearences
Is very very girly.

Daisy:
Cannot float, but Super Mario Run gave her a double jump something no other character in the game has. (Although a bit useless since everyone in Smash has this by default.)
Has never used veggies.
Has plant based powers in the spinoffs and one example of terrakinesis with the ability to create crystals.
Is the monarch in charge of a desert country and doesn't currently have a Toad equivalent.
Is usually a middleweight character in her appearences.
Is tomboyish, brash and aggressive. In her first entry in the Mario Party series she punches Bowser into the horizon.

That's not all the differences but that's a fair few to start.

Some of these changes may seem subtle, but watching Daisy float or prance around as girly as Peach and using a Toad would make very little sense to a Daisy fan.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The veggies and Toad could easily be replaced with cacti or w/e. That plant and earth control sounds interesting, though.

 

[osby]

People tend to forget that Sakurai operates outside of human logic. We’d rate Rosalina lower than Daisy because while Daisy has historical significance, Rosalina was mostly a one-off character at the time. We look for patterns in what Sakurai has done before, but the reality is that Sakurai just acts at random.

Just because she's old doesn't mean Daisy is a lot less important, interesting and popular character than Rosalina.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Just because she's old doesn't mean Daisy is a lot less important, interesting and popular character than Rosalina.

That’s very subjective, I think many people here would argue that being older gives a character historical importance. In the realm of character speculation, many people thinking something is all you need for it to snowball.

 

[osby]

That’s very subjective, I think many people here would argue that being older gives a character historical importance. In the realm of character speculation, many people thinking something is all you need for it to snowball.

Well, less interesting is my own opinion.

 

[harukaamami]

I don't really want her, but Daisy could work as a general representative for the Mario Sports series. Give her moves based on golf, tennis and soccer.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I just want a character to fight like a barbarian. I think that rough style w an axe would be so fun. Unfortunately I can only think of like hector for the role. Any other ax users in Nintendo?

 

[DNeon]

I just want a character to fight like a barbarian. I think that rough style w an axe would be so fun. Unfortunately I can only think of like hector for the role. Any other ax users in Nintendo?

There's Golden Axe for another Sega rep?

Or Cid from Final Fantasy (though hammers are more iconic to him)?

 

[YoshiandToad]

I just want a character to fight like a barbarian. I think that rough style w an axe would be so fun. Unfortunately I can only think of like hector for the role. Any other ax users in Nintendo?

In FE Heroes Anna is an axe wielder and Camilla is pretty popular amongst the FE circle too.

Outside FE all I can think of that isn't a generic Dinofolas(spelling?) enemy from Zelda is Animal Crossing but that's... Not the kind of axe you're after.

If Rayman got in he had a barbarian girl pal in Legends who got promoted heavily, but Barbara isn't getting in before Rayman...

 

[Opossum]

Frederick or Minerva would be my personal choice for an axe user, but they're not getting in for, well, a variety of reasons.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

Here are reasons why Reimu from Touhou should be a Smash character:

• Is a video game character
• Has a game on the Switch
• Is the face of an entire sub-genre of games (danmaku, or Bullet Hell shmups)
• Has an iconic and recognizable character design
• Touhou has significant cultural presence in Japan
• (Touhou) Has the largest volume of fan-produced media (doujin) in Japan bar none - proof of the franchise's popularity
• Lots of meme potential
• Is a video game character
• Part of gaming history since 1996 - Sakurai loves referencing vidya history
• Modern games take direct influence from Touhou - Touhou has left a huge mark on gaming as a whole
• Unique moveset potential where she can take bring danmaku-style gameplay with lots of projectiles on the screen at once - something you don't see in Smash currently
• Has appeared in fighting games where further moveset inspiration can be taken
• Touhou characters has made guest appearances in games before
• ZUN, the creator and owner who is known be be adamant on keeping the franchise out of corporate hands, has been less strict lately, as evident from the above point
• Is a video game character

 

[YoshiandToad]

I just want a character to fight like a barbarian. I think that rough style w an axe would be so fun. Unfortunately I can only think of like hector for the role. Any other ax users in Nintendo?

I racked my brain earlier, but...would a pickAXE do?

;3

 

[Roberk]

In FE Heroes Anna is an axe wielder and Camilla is pretty popular amongst the FE circle too.

Outside FE all I can think of that isn't a generic Dinofolas(spelling?) enemy from Zelda is Animal Crossing but that's... Not the kind of axe you're after.

If Rayman got in he had a barbarian girl pal in Legends who got promoted heavily, but Barbara isn't getting in before Rayman...

I have nightmares thinking of Camilla making it into Smash. Please IS, keep it quarantined. Anna would be pretty cool though as a merchant while also using her axe.

 

[Troykv]

I have nightmares thinking of Camilla making it into Smash. Please IS, keep it quarantined. Anna would be pretty cool though as a merchant while also using her axe.

Camilla is so... Camilla... I don't think she is able to appear in Smash in anyway, not even as a Trophy (unless she appears as a chibi sprite or something like that).

 

[Roberk]

Camilla is so... Camilla... I don't think she is able to appear in Smash in anyway, not even as a Trophy (unless she appears as a chibi sprite or something like that).

Her placing third just under Veronica in the second CYL scared me.Tharja thankfully fell in that poll, but her or Camilla garnering the popularity needed to make the jump to Smash would be embarrassing. If people want Camilla for wyvern knight moveset potential, go for Minerva, or even Altenna once the Jugdral remakes roll around. Wanting Camilla over literally anyone else is just shallow tbh.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I racked my brain earlier, but...would a pickAXE do?


View attachment 145602

;3

I mean a little, but it does not hit thet brutal barbaric vibe ya know?

The Anna idea I dig a lot. I just do not like her heroes design. Like at all. The dates or warriors one is so much better.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Her placing third just under Veronica in the second CYL scared me.Tharja thankfully fell in that poll, but her or Camilla garnering the popularity needed to make the jump to Smash would be embarrassing. If people want Camilla for wyvern knight moveset potential, go for Minerva, or even Altenna once the Jugdral remakes roll around. Wanting Camilla over literally anyone else is just shallow tbh.

After the first CYL, it was known that the prize would be a new outfit.

 

[Opossum]

Her placing third just under Veronica in the second CYL scared me.Tharja thankfully fell in that poll, but her or Camilla garnering the popularity needed to make the jump to Smash would be embarrassing. If people want Camilla for wyvern knight moveset potential, go for Minerva, or even Altenna once the Jugdral remakes roll around. Wanting Camilla over literally anyone else is just shallow tbh.

Minerva would be amazing.

 

[Roberk]

After the first CYL, it was known that the prize would be a new outfit.

While yes, CYLs are intended for Heroes, they are empirical measures of a character's popularity. Especially the first CYL, when no one knew what Heroes would entail. It was a clear-cut "what character out of literally anyone in the mainline series do you most want to see more of?" That's part of why I'm a big supporter of Lyn and think she has a chance; Lyn was the single most popular entry out of all characters, even the ones who had massive recognizability from Smash Bros (Marth, Roy, Ike, Lucina, Robin, and even the most recent and relevant Corrin). Lyn's victory had Intelligent Systems rush to stronghold Koei Tecmo into adding Lyn into FE Warriors which was coming out just later that year. If CYL can affect more distant third-party companies like Koei Tecmo, I have some reason to believe it can affect Sakurai, for better or for worse.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

While yes, CYLs are intended for Heroes, they are empirical measures of a character's popularity. Especially the first CYL, when no one knew what Heroes would entail. It was a clear-cut "what character out of literally anyone in the mainline series do you most want to see more of?" That's part of why I'm a big supporter of Lyn and think she has a chance; Lyn was the single most popular entry out of all characters, even the ones who had massive recognizability from Smash Bros (Marth, Roy, Ike, Lucina, Robin, and even the most recent and relevant Corrin). Lyn's victory had Intelligent Systems rush to stronghold Koei Tecmo into adding Lyn into FE Warriors which was coming out just later that year. If CYL can affect more distant third-party companies like Koei Tecmo, I have some reason to believe it can affect Sakurai, for better or for worse.

My point was that it makes sense to vote for female characters one wants to get new outfits in the game.

 

[Roberk]

My point was that it makes sense to vote for female characters one wants to get new outfits in the game.

Exactly, it's shallow.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Exactly, it's shallow.

You're giving CYL credit it doesn't deserve and getting mad at people for gaming the system (read: rationally voting) to get new art.

 

[Roberk]

You're giving CYL credit it doesn't deserve and getting mad at people for gaming the system (read: rationally voting) to get new art.

I mean I stated how CYL has earned that credit that it "doesn't deserve" by influencing Intelligent Systems to force Koei Tecmo, a third party company, to change their plans at a critical time in development.

I would "be mad" that people gamed the system if it leads to Intelligent Systems going "hmm, look at these easily measurable and analyzable trends. Maybe we should promote these characters/themes more." As I stated before, CYL has shown to have power outside of just some art (and even then it's more than just new art) and again, as I said before, that could be for better or for worse.

How about I say I misinterpreted your original post so that this doesn't keep going in circles and I don't have to go in depth why I wouldn't like Camilla being the role model for Intelligent System's marketing.

 

[Deleted member]

While yes, CYLs are intended for Heroes, they are empirical measures of a character's popularity. Especially the first CYL, when no one knew what Heroes would entail. It was a clear-cut "what character out of literally anyone in the mainline series do you most want to see more of?" That's part of why I'm a big supporter of Lyn and think she has a chance; Lyn was the single most popular entry out of all characters, even the ones who had massive recognizability from Smash Bros (Marth, Roy, Ike, Lucina, Robin, and even the most recent and relevant Corrin). Lyn's victory had Intelligent Systems rush to stronghold Koei Tecmo into adding Lyn into FE Warriors which was coming out just later that year. If CYL can affect more distant third-party companies like Koei Tecmo, I have some reason to believe it can affect Sakurai, for better or for worse.

Correction. Second most.
If it weren't for the fact Ike's votes were divided between two different versions of him, he would have STOMPED Lyn hard.

 

[Roberk]

Correction. Second most.
If it weren't for the fact Ike's votes were divided between two different versions of him, he would have STOMPED Lyn hard.

That's why I said single entry. Even then Ike's multiple appearances in mainline games, more recent games, and 2 Smash Bros appearances only amounted to his combined votes to be 1,638 over Lyn's. Technically beating her, but not stomping her.

 

[IsmaR]

Please attempt to keep the discussion limited to only what directly pertains to Smash.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Update on newcomer icons I've made.

Spoiler

Getting tired of drawing anime-esque characters...
Next time this is updated, expect a bunch of Fire Emblem/Kid Icarus characters.

EDIT: Added Saki from Sin & Punishment

 

[Arcadenik]

Getting tired of drawing anime-esque characters...
Next time this is updated, expect a bunch of Fire Emblem/Kid Icarus characters.

Who is that between Marx and Rex & Pyra? Also, who are the two characters on the bottom right?