NEW TECH "SUPER STALL" Thread.

[Mc.Rad]

https://vine.co/v/iHI6X1j9r92
So not too long ago a Vine popped up by https://twitter.com/ssbm_zero showing this possible new tech off. I found this vine on r/SSBM and shortly dubbed it the Super Stall.
It's essentially an up-b cancel that uses edgegrabbing instead of the ground allowing for another option for edge guarding for Doc. I'm not really a good Smash player so I would like to see the reaction to actual Doc Players about this.
EDIT: We found that this tech is applicable to every stage!
EDIT2: WINDOWS ARE HUGE

"Doesn't need fastfall to work, but does if you want to do it intangible.

If upb is on frame 29, you have 1 frame tangible, frames higher than 29 will have (n-28) tangible frames.

dj on | upb on
10 | 25

11 | 25-29, 40+

12 | 25+

13 | 25+

14 | 29+

15 | 33+
in summary, you have a 3* frame window to doublejump and a 4 frame window to up-b to make this intangible.

/* can double jump on 10, but then only get 1 frame window to up-b.
Highest Intangible (good hitbox position) - (11 | 28)
Lowest Intangible - (13 | 28)
Lowest without Full Intangibility - (15 | 33)

Because Up-b has an intangibility on frame 3, you can allow 1 frame of lenience when dropping from the ledge with some setups. Basically whenever you would grab the ledge on frame 4
You can use it to reverse ledgegrab by using a reverse upb-cancel / reverse extended-upb input

Ramen Ledgegrab" - u/schmoobildon

 

[Mervis]

What is the input for this? Just Up-b cancel next to the edge?

 

[Mc.Rad]

What is the input for this? Just Up-b cancel next to the edge?

Yes, however keep this in mind.
"Most definitely the reason. It would appear any time after frame 3, you become ledgegrab-able. Mario seems to stay in the same sub-state that doc is in during frames 1-3 until frame 7, where both characters start moving upward. Doc has a unique sub-state during 4-6 where remains almost stationary (very tiny movements depending on angle that is inputted). So like up-b cancel, it is unique to Doc. If you were to mod the up-b to give Mario a negative vertical velocity on frame 7 or onwards, he would likely be able to grab ledge" -schmoob

 

[Mervis]

Yes, however keep this in mind.
"Most definitely the reason. It would appear any time after frame 3, you become ledgegrab-able. Mario seems to stay in the same sub-state that doc is in during frames 1-3 until frame 7, where both characters start moving upward. Doc has a unique sub-state during 4-6 where remains almost stationary (very tiny movements depending on angle that is inputted). So like up-b cancel, it is unique to Doc. If you were to mod the up-b to give Mario a negative vertical velocity on frame 7 or onwards, he would likely be able to grab ledge" -schmoob

Sick. I can upB cancel at a high consistency so I'll be fooling around with this tech a lot. I'll return with thoughts on it after some testing.

 

[Liekand]

This is really interesting. I've been able to do it semi-consistently after a little bit of testing and it seems like a pretty cool stall, though I'm more excited about the quick reverse ledgegrab right now; seems like it could help his edgeguard in certain situations. I'll try to do some more testing with that and the stall sometime soon and see how useful this can be!

 

[SmashMac]

This tech has a lot of potential. Definitely great that it was found. Applications at a tournament level will require mastery of the up+B cancel timing, as well as the two frame-perfect first and second directions for both left and right edges of the stage. I will do more theory crafting on this in the near future.

 

[schmooblidon]

This tech is a pretty huge deal honestly. It won't put Doc higher on the tier list, but it's incredibly useful and has a lot of different applications.

Lemme just format my info for smashboards:

Doesn't need fastfall to work, you may find it easier without. Doublejump windows will be more lenient if you do not fastfall, and you will not have to fall as far.

If upb is on frame 29, you have 1 frame tangible, frames higher than 29 will have (n-28) tangible frames.

Where frame 1 is the first airborne frame;

dj on frame# | upb on frame #
10 | 25
11 | 25-29, 40+
12 | 25+
13 | 25+
14 | 29+
15 | 33+

in summary, you have a 3* frame window to doublejump and a 4 frame window to up-b to make this intangible.

*can double jump on 10 making the window 4, but then only get 1 frame window to up-b.

Highest Intangible (good hitbox position) - (11 | 28)

Lowest Intangible - (13 | 28)

Lowest without Full Intangibility - (15 | 33)

Because Up-b has an intangibility on frame 3, you can allow 1 frame of lenience when dropping from the ledge with some setups. Basically whenever you would grab the ledge on frame 4

You can use it to reverse ledgegrab by using a reverse upb-cancel / reverse extended-upb.

Backwards Cape to DJ to Reverse Upb LedgeGrab

Ramen Ledgegrab

Here is a new gfy for you guys, which is imo one of the more useful applications:

Upb Snap

I'm sure you all know the feeling of mis-spacing your doublejump to the ledge and getting dtilted. With this tech you can interrupt the doublejump as soon as you are inline with the edge, making it a way faster method of recovery in some situations, and potentially baiting a move from your opponent.

I'm glad I've spent so much time practicing upbc in the past, I can get this 90% of the time on both sides, and I have used it in matches already. The reverse is super difficult and I can only do it on the left edge, and only if I doublejump before hand, and even then I'm not consistent. I think it would be super useful if you could master it, I will try and find a good method of doing the inputs.

 

[Max?]

Holy **** Schmoo. This is quite a great find, the UpB Ledgesnap is pretty huge imo. Now I need to actually learn how to UpB cancel loll

Great stuff team

 

[schmooblidon]

Holy **** Schmoo. This is quite a great find, the UpB Ledgesnap is pretty huge imo. Now I need to actually learn how to UpB cancel loll

Great stuff team

Want to clarify that it was not me who found the stall, was a japanese player named zero. Huge props to him

 

[Modesty]

This is super sick, but it should totally be called coin stalling

 

[Mc.Rad]

Want to clarify that it was not me who found the stall, was a japanese player named zero. Huge props to him

Yeah, all props to schmoob for basically finding out how it works and "Zer0 #2" for figuring it out. I was just the guy who told you about it, links to everything is kinda in the thread, but I left some stuff out that schmoob did just because it was kinda fillery. I am glad to see people notice it more, you should share this with some Doc players so they can find this out.

 

[schmooblidon]

lmao this is insane!

WallTech to Reverse UpB LedgeSnap

credits to pulling_strings for the idea. this is seriously fast, if you tech lower down you can also walltechjump into it.

 

[Mc.Rad]

https://gfycat.com/AdorableCornyIndusriverdolphin
Praise schmoob
He found out that this tech can be used to interrupt an early double jump to arrive to the edge safer and faster.

 

[schmooblidon]

Let's discuss input methods for all up-b cancels.

Was talking to flwns the other day about the differences between aerial and grounded up-b inputs. Kadano has stick maps that show how they differ here. As you can see the aerial up-b area, is much larger. Turns out for the upb-stall, you can literally just hit the notch with b and release. This is my new preferred method and makes it very unlikely I'll reverse.

I've made stick maps for the minimalist inputs for a forward facing and reverse for airborne and grounded, and also for my preferred methods as well.

As you can see grounded regular upb cancels and stalls require a roll, albeit very tiny, so it's always best to do a very deliberate roll in practice. My preferred is a little vague, as I'm sure I input slightly different inputs each roll. My method is to flick my thumb in a vague roll and let it immediately slide off.

The reverse inputs are a little biased, as you technically can put the stick anywhere in the back half on frame 4, but I feel this is the most viable method, and the only way I've been able to get it with some consistency. As you can see in my preferred, I like to roll it round before I snap to down+back, even in the air when this is not needed. This is because the precision of this tech requires you to only move the stick to the back half on frame 4 and not anytime before. If I just input the diagonal, I have to wait a frame before I should start the snap down. This feels very awkward for me, and so I add the little roll to keep my thumb in a constant motion.

The reverse is very prone to accidental forward up-bs and SDs, so I'm very interested if someone has a good method for this.

 

[Hype Man]

Am I the only one that is totally lost here? I can upbc prob 70-80% of the time yet I have to clue how to do this/what any of this info means lol

 

[1Twinmuduck]

Dumb question incoming. Why should I use this tech when doc already has insane magnets hands?

 

[Mervis]

Because it puts a hitbox on the edge. You can confirm it into something if you move fast enough I think.

 

[Palika]

Dumb question incoming. Why should I use this tech when doc already has insane magnets hands?

It's a completely invicible ledge stall technique when done right. Think of it like doc's version of the shino stall.

 

[1Twinmuduck]

It's a completely invicible ledge stall technique when done right. Think of it like doc's version of the shino stall.

Whoa that's rad thanks dude

 

[Mc.Rad]

Whoa that's rad thanks dude

I'm really hoping that we can see some Doc's use this in the future. Would be really cool.

 

[schmooblidon]

Made this to show the spacial range of the upb ledgesnap. This shows the 4 extremes, so the range is the box that is created by these 4 points. I didn't know which was better to show, as you move downward from frames 1-3, so I made both.

 

[iiJjRr]

This video should help

go to 1:06

 

[Wümph]

Hey, what does dj stand for? Really cool stuff here btw!

 

[iiJjRr]

Double Jump

 

[Wümph]

Double Jump

yeah, that's what i figured, but just wanted to sure. thanks

 

[Awstintacious]

Bout to start flexing these between stocks