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New Tech - Reverse Walljumping

Discussion in 'Melee Discussion' started by Vesne, Sep 11, 2015.

  1. Vesne

    Vesne
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    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Lynchburg, Virginia
    After watching this video from 2009 which shows off how Fox is capable or preforming a reverse walljump on his target test stage I spent some time and used melee's debug menu and save states to research reverse walljumps and found some interesting information that lets you use reverse walljumps on tournament legal stages with every character that is capable of using walljumps.

    If you do not want to read this wall of text I have a TL:DR and gfycats showing off the new tech at the bottom of the post. If you want to know how it works and required information to use it for your character continue reading.
    The reasons the reverse walljump shown in dashdancedan's video works is by using the same trick that the Doraki ledge walljump uses. If you are hugging a wall one frame and the next frame you land or grab a ledge the game does not update to see if you are still hugging a wall instead it updates only once you are airborne, so as long as the next time you go airborne you are still hugging a wall you can instantly walljump. The game does not check if the wall you are hugging is still a left facing or right facing wall so when Fox jumps into the left facing wall and lands then walks over to the right facing wall and jumps if you press analog into the wall it will still preform a rightward facing walljump that the game was still storing from the left wall. This is not new information but is useful to understand how the glitch works.

    However people thought this was limited to stages with two walls connected with a floor in between to walk across to avoid jumping and losing the walljump, this is not true. The game doesn't update every time you are airborne only when in certain freefall states. There are a variety of movement options for every character that do not lose the walljump letting you now navigate to another wall and preform a reverse walljump on other stages.

    Every character can use airdodges, get up from ledge options (except jump from ledge), and certain B moves without losing their stored walljump, even though you enter freefall from most Up-B's this is considered a SpecialFreefall and the game does not check if you are hugging a wall in SpecialFreefall. It is actually possible to use full hops and short hops by inputting an aerial or special on the final frame of jumpsquat so that the moment you are airborne you are in an aerial attack state and not in the standard freestate where the game will update if you are hugging a wall. Many aerials have an IASA frames that allow for larger frame windows to input a 2nd aerial or a grapple to continue stalling entering freefall and losing your stored walljump. For whatever reason you are capable of entering freefall for a single frame without losing your stored walljump if you walk or slide off a stage. This lets characters like Mario who can't use his Up-B to grab the ledge from on stage get to a ledge with a wavedash back into a frame perfect airdodge up.

    You can use any of these movement options to store the walljump as well, simply jump or fall into a wall with a decent amount of momentum (roughly Ganon's walking speed) and you can use an airdodge or most character's up-b to grab the ledge or land back on stage where once grounded the game stops updating if you are hugging a wall. Now you can use your special moves or well timed attacks out of jumpsquat to get to the wall on the other side of the stage. Now when your aerial or special attacks end and you enter freefall you won't lose your reverse walljump as you are still hugging a wall. Once in freefall and hugging the wall let the analog stick rest in neutral (or anywhere except towards the wall) on one frame and the next frame press analog into the wall and you will activate a reverse walljump. Since the reverse walljump sends you toward the wall you can walljump back away from the stage, you also still have an unused doublejump to extend even further off stage.

    Just like how a regular walljump can be reversed a Doraki ledge walljump can be reversed as well allowing some characters to preform a reverse ledge walljump. The characters capable of preforming this are Fox, Falco, Mario, Samus, Young Link, and Sheik. Captain Falcon and Pichu are unable to preform a reverse walljump likely due to their ECB (environmental collision bubble) shifting too far backwards when dropping from the ledge. If you are hugging a wall and your ECB shifts too far in one direction horizontally it will remove the ability to walljump in the opposite direction for the rest of the time you are hugging the wall, making it impossible for Falcon or Pichu to drop from the ledge and walljump towards the stage. Unfortunately Sheik and Samus require a longer flat wall to reverse walljump from than are on any of the legal stages, with the exception of Pokemon Stadium's rock transformation. Fox, Falco, Mario, and Young Link can all preform a reverse ledge walljump on Final Destination. Mario is also capable of doing this on FoD and Pokemon Stadium since his ECB is much higher than average once dropping from ledge. Since pressing the analog stick into the stage will trigger a stand from ledge you will need to drop and quickly input the analog input right after falling. To avoid fastfalling or drifting too far from the ledge it is easiest to drop by pressing the C-stick down or away.
    There is nothing stopping you using the above methods and information to store a walljump for the same side of the wall you wish to walljump off of. This will allow you to walljump without the required starting momentum when you first collide with the fall which could certainly be useful for heavier characters like Fox who are not capable of walljumping by simply drifting into the wall from a fullhop. My post isn't about direct application of the tech in certain matchups or situations I just want to let everyone know about reverse walljumps and storing walljumps and let players find potential uses and discuss its utility.

    That is all of the basic information needed to understand how to preform a reverse walljump and why it works. Now you just need to know what special moves your character can use that don't lose the stored walljump. I will also list the IASA frames for your characters aerials as they can be used to activate a 2nd aerial or grapple to continue delaying entering freefall. If you use an aerial without IASA or a special move and you want to use a 2nd midair attack you must time it frame perfect to avoid entering freefall. All of this information is listed below by character so that you can read about the characters that interest you.

    Each character will also have different methods to preform a reverse walljump if they start on the ground as some characters ECB immediately shift away from a wall as soon as they are airborne which will lose the stored walljump. These characters have to use use a buffered walljump input during jumpsquat so they can use the ECB of the jumpsquat which was hugging the wall instead of the airborne ECB that isn't touching the wall. Some characters also need to be walking before entering jumpsquat so they slide up closer to the wall during jumpsquat. Smash analog inputs can be buffered a maximum of 2 frames before the walljump frame (the analog input must be held until the walljump is activated). All walljumps also require the analog stick to be in neutral (or anywhere except the direction you wish to walljump) the frame directly before your analog input.

    Fox
    Grounded Reverse Walljump Method: Fox preforms a reverse wall jump by hugging a wall starting a jump and pressing analog into the wall during or after the last two frames of jumpsquat (must have analog neutral the frame before you press in).

    Reverse Ledge Walljump Stages: Final Destination, Rock Transformation Cliff Ledge
    Aerial's Interrupt As Soon As Frames:
    Nair from 41 - 49
    Fair from 52 - 59
    Bair from 37 - 39
    Uair from 35 - 39
    Specials That Store Walljump:
    • Up-B
    • Side-B, grounded and aerial
    • Down-B, can be started on a platform and then fastfall to drop through
    • Neutral-B, can repeat laser shots
    Additional Notes: Fox is the only character whose fast fall speed means his aerials out of fulljump will always end after he is lower than most ledges but thankfully he can fire a single laser out a fullhop's jump squat and enter freefall right as he starts to hug the wall.

    To quickly grab a ledge with a walljump stored run towards the ledge and shortly before you would fall up start an Up-B. You will continue drifting off stage as the firefox starts up letting you recover to the ledge.

    Falco

    Grounded Reverse Walljump Method: Falco preforms a reverse wall jump by hugging a wall starting a jump and pressing analog into the wall during or after the last two frames of jumpsquat (must have analog neutral the frame before you press in).

    Reverse Ledge Walljump Stages: Rock Transformation Cliff Ledge (oddly can't preform a normal Doraki ledge walljump), Rock Transformation
    Aerial's Interrupt As Soon As Frames:
    Nair from 41 - 49
    Fair from 52 - 59
    Bair from 37 - 39
    Uair from 35 - 39

    Specials That Store Walljump:

    • Up-B
    • Side-B, grounded and aerial
    • Down-B, can be started on a platform and then fastfall to drop through
    • Neutral-B, can repeat laser shot
    Additional Notes:
    To quickly grab a ledge with a walljump stored run towards the ledge and shortly before you would fall up start an Up-B. You will continue drifting off stage as the firebird starts up letting you recover to the ledge. This requires a tighter timing than Fox's due to Falco's slower run speed but should still be easy with practice. Falco's is very unsafe to do except after killing your opponent as Falco does not drift far out from the stage at all.

    Sheik
    Grounded Reverse Walljump Method: Sheik preforms a reverse wall jump by either hugging a wall and starting a backflip or walking into a wall and starting a jump and pressing into the wall during the last two frames of jumpsquat (must have analog neutral the frame before you press in).

    Reverse Ledge Walljump Stages: Rock Transformation Cliff Ledge (requires to drop with the analog slightly below the forward down notch so that you release the ledge with maximum forward momentum)

    Aerial's Interrupt As Soon As Frames:
    Nair from 41 - 48
    Uair from 36 - 39

    Specials That Store Walljump:

    • Up-B
    • Side-B
    • Neutral-B, can charge and cancel needles
    Captain Falcon
    Grounded Reverse Walljump Method: Captain Falcon preforms a reverse wall jump by walking up to a wall starting a jump facing either way and pressing into the wall during the last two frames of jumpsquat (must have analog neutral the frame before you press in). Captain Falcon can gain 2 additional frames to input walljump if he preforms a neutral jump and a total of 4 additional frames if he uses a forward jump.

    Reverse Ledge Walljump Stages: None (not capable)
    Aerial's Interrupt As Soon As Frames:
    Fair from 35 - 39
    Bair from 28 - 35
    Uair from 29 - 33
    Dair from 37 - 44

    Specials That Store Walljump:
    • Up-B
    • Side-B, grounded and aerial
    • Down-B, grounded and aerial, can kick off a wall with it if you land on a platform before you begin to fall
    • Neutral-B
    Samus
    Grounded Reverse Walljump Method: Samus preforms a reverse wall jump by hugging a wall starting a jump and pressing analog into the wall during or after the last two frames of jumpsquat (must have analog neutral the frame before you press in).

    Reverse Ledge Walljump Stages: Rock Transformation Cliff Ledge
    Aerial's Interrupt As Soon As Frames:
    Nair from 39 - 49
    Fair from 40 - 55
    Bair from 36 - 39
    Uair from 38 - 39
    Dair from 48 - 54

    Specials That Store Walljump:
    • Up-B
    • Side-B
    • Down-B,
    • Neutral-B
    • Z-air, Samus can grapple and pull in before fulling hanging and reverse walljump.
    Additional Notes:
    When Samus is launched by a bomb explosion she will stay in morphball for 53 frames but is capable of using an aerial, special, airdodge, or grapple at any time. This lets samus easily navigate offstage and into an aerial or special without needing to use frame perfec tinputs to avoid entering freefall. A 2nd bomb can be used offstage but since you are not being launched by the bomb simply placing it you can not act out of it. The 2nd bomb will also last 53 frames and on the 54th frame you will enter freefall so you must be hugging the wall before that frame to keep your stored walljump. Here is a slow motion GFY of the frame data for exiting morphball. The number in the top right is the number of frames your character has been in that state. Once it resets to 0 that is when you will lose your walljump if you aren't already hugging a wall.
    Here all of the current bomb reverse walljump setups I found
    Yoshi's Story High (Easy)
    Yoshi's Story Low (Medium)
    Final Destination and Dreamland (Easy)
    FoD and Pokemon Stadium (Hard)

    Samus is capable of reverse walljumping from grapple but it requires a lot of practice to understand the timing. Samus's grapple will pull in horizontal at the start and shift to primarily vertical movement later on. If you bump into thee wall and bounce away you will lose the ability to reverse walljump. If you hang fully below a ledge and pull up Samus will be shifted back once you reach the tip of your grapple shifting you back and also causing you to lose your walljump. Pulling in too soon on the grapple makes Samus exit the grapple animation before hugging a wall which will also lose the stored walljump. This means to successfully reverse walljump out of grapple you need to start a grapple and pull in at this sweetspot distance that results in you finish your horizontal movement right before you touch the wall so the vertical movement smoothly brings you up across the wall without bouncing off. The window to reverse walljump is usually a single frame but it can be buffered up to 2 frames early by smashing and holding the analog towards the wall. If you have access to the Debug Menu and put it in DEVELOP mode you can use R + Dpad Down to view your ECB which can be useful in learning the required angles and timings. The high upwards momentum from a succesful grapple will cause your ECB from previous frames to be significantly disjointed so a properly spaced and timed grapple will typically result in your light orange ECB being above your orange ECB and your blue ECB being below that.

    Here are some GFY's of Samus using reverse walljumps out of grapple to hopefully help you learn the timing.
    Pokemon Stadium
    Yoshi's Story (uses the slighty raised bump)
    FoD
    (I have some additional footage I could upload it is requested)

    Mario

    Grounded Reverse Walljump Method: Mario preforms a reverse wall jump by hugging a wall starting a jump and pressing analog into the wall during or after the last two frames of jumpsquat (must have analog neutral the frame before you press in).

    Reverse Ledge Walljump Stages: Final Destination, FoD, Pokemon Stadium, Rock Transformation Cliff Ledge
    Aerial's Interrupt As Soon As Frames:
    Fair from 59 - 74
    Uair from 29 - 33
    Dair from 37 - 38
    Specials That Store Walljump:

    • Down-B
    • Neutral-B
    • Up-B does not immediately lose walljump and can be used to grab ledges, the walljump is likely lost during the frames that you can walljump out of Up-B (Yes, you can reverse walljump out of Up-B)
    Young Link
    Grounded Reverse Walljump Method: Young Link preforms a reverse wall jump by hugging a wall starting a jump and pressing analog into the wall during or after the last two frames of jumpsquat (must have analog neutral the frame before you press in).

    Reverse Ledge Walljump Stages: Final Destination
    Aerial's Interrupt As Soon As Frames:
    Nair from 35 - 39
    Bair from 29 - 39
    Fair from 46 - 55
    Uair from 59 - 69
    Dair from 79 - 89

    Specials That Store Walljump:
    • Up-B
    • Side-B
    • Down-B, Young Link can down throw his bomb while DI-ing up and Up-B or airdodge and use grapple afterwards
    • Neutral-B
    • Z-air, Young Link can grapple and pull in after fully hanging or slightly before and reverse walljump
    Additional Notes: It is possible for Young Link to launch himself off of one bomb's explosion while holding a bomb in hand. This is done by up-throwing one bomb then pulling another. After the 1st bomb lands and launches you up time a late z-drop so the bomb in your hand lands on the stage without exploding. Now just pull a 3rd bomb and up-throw it then pick up the bomb on the ground and wait to be launched by the falling bomb. This is what this trick looks like in real time.
    Young Link's hookshot into reverse walljump is much easier to execute than Samus's. Young Link's grapple if pulled before it you get near fully hanging will cause Young Link to enter freefall without hugging the wall so it is best to wait to pull in slightly before you fully hang or just after you are fully hanging. Avoid waiting too long as once hanging in place a half second Young Link's grapple pull in too last shorter than usual which will kill the reverse walljump. The window to reverse walljump is usually a single frame but it can be buffered up to 2 frames early by smashing and holding the analog towards the wall.
    Here are some GFY's of Young Link using reverse walljumps out of grapple to hopefully help you learn the timing.
    FoD
    Yoshi's Story (uses the slighty raised bump)
    Pokemon Stadium (with frame advance and debug mode showing walls/floor)

    Pichu

    Grounded Reverse Walljump Method: Pichu preforms a reverse wall jump by walking into a wall and starting a jump and pressing into the wall during the last two frames of jumpsquat (must have analog neutral the frame before you press in).

    Reverse Ledge Walljump Stages: None (not capable)
    Aerial's Interrupt As Soon As Frames:
    Dair from 47 - 57
    Specials That Store Walljump:

    • Up-B
    • Side-B
    • Down-B
    • Neutral-B

    TL:DR
    1) Hug a wall so that you are capable of walljumping
    2) Use airdodge or up-b to get to ledge or stage
    3) Use specific movement options so you only enter freefall when hugging a wall facing the opposite direction (or ledges for some characters)
    4) Press analog in to the wall (frame before have analog neutral
    5) Successful reverse walljump! (You can regular walljump right afterwards too!)

    Cool Gfycats Of Reverse Jumps.

    Falco showing off on Yoshi's

    Mario ridiculous FoD recovery (frame perfect specials to store walljump, reverse walljump + regular walljump & super jump punch walljump)

    All possible reverse ledge walljumps on FD

    Samus doesn't even need an Up-B to recover from under FoD (Bomb launch canceled into Nair, Grapple out of Nair IASA window)

    Falcon deep edgeguards with double walljumps (Reverse to regular walljump)

    Fox setting up a double walljump with a laser
    One of Samus's many bomb into reverse walljump setups (with debug menu showing Yoshi's exact wall features)


    Young Link using two bombs to setup a double walljump form hookshot on FoD

    Samus using grapple beam to recover off of Pokemon Stadiums base


    Sheik showing the most over powered use of double walljump

    New: Fox showing the two optimal methods to store a walljump and get to the opposite ledge on FD

    I rewrote most of this post multiple times as I discovered new information and I mainly worked on this post late at night so I apologize for the awkwardly orangized post and any errors it may contain. If you spot any incorrect information or spelling/grammar issues let me know so I can clean it up. If you have any questions about reverse walljumps feel free to ask I'd be glad to answer whatever I can.

    In the reply right below this I will have these additional pieces of information that I didn't include in the main post:
    1. Setups to reverse walljump off of Randall on the right and left for every character
    2. Which walls in Pokemon Stadiums's rock and fire transformation each character can reverse walljump off of (without using a frame perfect attack out of jumpsquat)
    3. Additional actions that can be used without losing the stored walljump
    4. Additional walljump information including ECB positioning and frame data for walljumps
    5. Areas worth exploring for potential future discoveries with walljumps
    This is unnecessary information for most users but I wanted to make all of the information I discovered available for anyone that is interested.
     
    #1 Vesne, Sep 11, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
    Kou, Bones0, タオー and 18 others like this.
  2. Vesne

    Vesne
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    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Lynchburg, Virginia
    Randall Setups (Right and Left Side)

    Fox:
    Right side, face away, slide off, press in.
    Left side shove into wall, slide off, analog in.

    Falco:
    Right side, face away, slide off, press in.
    Left side, face away, crouch, slide off, analog in (2 frame window).

    Sheik:
    Right side, face away, slide off, press in.
    Left side, ride Randall until you can hug the wall, walk into wall until you slide off, press in.

    Captain Falcon:
    Right side, face away, slide off, press in (1 frame window).
    Left side, wait until Randall pushes you into the wall, jump, press analog in during jump squat.

    Samus:
    Right side, face away, slide off, press in.
    Left side, ride Randall until you can hug the wall, jump, press in sometime after jumpsquat.

    Mario:
    Right side, face away,slide off, press in.
    Left side, wait until Randall touches the wall, walk into the wall until you slide off, press in.

    Young Link:
    Right side, face away, slide off, press in.
    Left side, ride Randall until you can hug the wall, jump, press in sometime after jumpsquat.

    Pichu: Right side, face away, slide off, press in. Left side, face away, crouch, slide off, press in (2 frame window).

    What Walls On Pokemon Stadium Can Each Character Reverse Walljump From
    Fire Transformation w/ Collision and Walls Labeled

    Rock Transformation w/ Collsion and Walls Labeled
    Requires walk means you must walk against the wall before jumping.
    Buffer is the 2 frame window input in the 2nd and and 3rd to last jumpsquat frame.
    Buffer +Number is the 2 frame buffer window + that many extra frames for the analog input window.
    The left trunk of fire transformation often requires a dash or walk into jump so that you can jumpsquat in the corner of the tree and start the jump hugging the wall.

    Fox
    Fire: Left Trunk (buffer +1 frame), Right Upper (requires walk, must buffer), Right Low (requires walk, must buffer)
    Rock: Cliff, Peak, Bottom Slope (requires walk), Metal 1, Metal 2

    Falco
    Fire: Left Trunk (requires walk, buffer + 1 frame), Right Trunk (requires walk, must buffer)
    Rock: Cliff (requires walk, buffer +1), Bottom Slope (requires walk, buffer +5), Metal 1 (requires walk, buffer +1), Metal 2, (must buffer)

    Sheik
    Fire: Left Trunk (must dash into jump, buffer +1), Right Trunk (requires walk, must buffer)
    Rock: Cliff (requires walk, buffer +1), Bottom Slope (must buffer)

    Falcon
    Fire: Left Trunk (must dash into jump, buffer +1), Right Upper (must buffer), Right Trunk (buffer +2)
    Rock: Cliff (must buffer), Bottom Slope (buffer +3), Metal 1 (must buffer)

    Samus
    Fire: Right Upper (must buffer), Right Trunk (must buffer)
    Rock: Cliff, (buffer +7), Peak (requires walk, must buffer), Top Slope (requires walk, must buffer), Mid Slope (requires walk, must buffer), Bottom Slope (requires walk, buffer +6), Metal 1 (requires walk, buffer +19), Metal 2 (buffer +1)

    Mario
    Fire: Left Trunk (requires walk, buffer +1), Right Upper (must buffer), Right Trunk (must buffer)
    Rock: Cliff (buffer +1), Mid Slope (requires walk), Bottom Slope (must buffer), Metal 1 (must buffer), Metal 2 (must buffer)

    Young Link
    Fire: Left Trunk (must buffer), Left Trunk (requires walk)
    Rock: Cliff (buffer +8), Peak (must buffer), Bottom Slope (requires, buffer +9), Metal 1 (must buffer)

    Pichu
    Fire: Nope
    Rock: Cliff (requires walk), Bottom Slope (must buffer)

    Additional Options That Keep Store Walljumps
    Airdodge
    Stand/Attack/Roll From Ledge
    Shield, Roll, Sidestep
    Tech Rolls or In Place
    No Tech Roll/Attack/In Pllace
    Shield Break
    Attacks/Grabs/Throws

    Can be launched by throws or hit by attacks until entering DamageFall (typically around 60frames, not sure what triggers the switch). So if you are hit up and touch the ground in under a second without wiggling out of tumble your walljump stays stored.

    Additional Information On Walljumps w/ ECB/Frame Info
    Nearly every special in the game can be used mid air and then frame perfectly time a 2nd special/aerial on the exact frame it ends to smoothly transistion from special -> special without ever entering freefall.

    Falcon and Pichu are the only characters capable of dropping from a flat ledge and immediately walljumping from the ledge, and are also the only characters unable to preform a reverse ledge walljump even on stages like Fourside or Mushroom Kingdom II with long flat walls. My understanding is that since they have the two largest ECB shifts away from stage when dropping the ledge it kills the reverse walljump ability (ECB shifting opposite direction of walljump always seems to kill it) and their ECB is far enough out they can drift into the wall and still have enough speed to allow a standard walljump.

    Triggering a walljump requires you to contact the wall with enough initial momentum, then one on frame have analog neutral, and the next in the direction you want to walljump, the 3rd frame the walljump is activated. Interestingly the ECB that is used to check if you are far enough into the wall is the anticipated 3rd frame. So if on the 2nd frame you didn't walljump and continued with your current momentum that is the ECB the game uses to see if it will let you walljump. This is the reason that for characters who can't reverse walljump once midair they can not input it the frame directly before the walljump it must be inputted and held on the 2nd or 3rd to last jumpsquat frame, as the final jumpsquat frame walljump would use the airborne frames anticipated ECB which is not touching the wall. Viewing the ECB of your walljump frame will inacurately place the Orange ECB which is intended to be the previous frames ECB as the anticipated original ECB for that frame if you did not input walljump the frame before.

    The projected ECB (white outline) appears to be the ECB used when checking if your close enough to a wall. I say appears to be because I comparing savestates with only 1 frame difference in midair drift both clearly have the projected white ECB inside the wall and it seems to require an arbitrary (from my perspective at least) distance of the white ECB outline inside the wall. It requires the white outline to be fully inside the wall and see some of the hollow section under the tip. The corrected ECB (light orange) is always ridiculously close to the wall and even with debug's camera zooming in as much as desired I honestly can't many times if it is touching the wall, it is totally possible it is something unrelated to the ECB's shape like distance from ECB center to the wall.

    Frame data for storing a walljump makes sense after knowing the frame data for activating a walljumping. You must have one frame touching the wall before it and the frame you input airdodge or up-b must be an ECB that is inside the wall the required distance. I say ECB and not walljump capability because as long as the frame before could walljump which uses your current frames ECB that is what matters. Even if a walljump would fail on the current frame because it would use the next frames ECB that is too high/low/far the walljump will still be stored.

    There are two interesting tricks for getting optimal drift the first frame you drop from the ledge. Pichu is actually capable of using the first trick which I have been calling, "Enhanced Scar Jumping" you just release the ledge by for a single frame inputting very slightly below the forward and down notch for your analog stick. This is just outside the stand from ledge range and gives maximum forward drift from ledge. This lets Pichu scar jump on Final Destination, Dreamland, FoD, Pokemon Stadium (some stages require you to hold forwards for 1-2 frames before inputting walljump so you will still be hugging the wall during the ECB for the walljump frame). This doesn't require any storing walljumps or Doraki stuff it is a true Scar Jump. There is another way for even stronger drift forwards but it uses the tumble from ledge when you hold on too long. If when in the ledge grab animation you hold your analog stick completely in the stage it will not read the ledge stand once you are allowed to input a ledge option, so when your character drops from the ledge you start your tumble with a decent added drift towards stage. As far as I know Sheik is the only character who can do this and use a stored walljump (reverse or regular) and requires stages like Fourside or Mushroom Kingdom II long walls (rock transformation likely works too but, I haven't tested).

    I think Falco's walljump is just glitchy or is somehow treated differently than other walljumps/ledge grabs. Falco is incapable of preforming a ledge walljump on nearly every ledge in the entire game. Every other character can easily ledge walljump on any map with a long flat wall. The only stage I am aware of that it does work is Kongo Jungle (not the 64 one) by using the rock to the right of the stage. This ledge is unique in that the rock actually pokes out into your body. Looking at the ECB on this stage it is unique in that your projected ECB (white outline) is almost entirely inside the rock when it normally would be connected to your corrected ECB (light orange) near the ledge. I have no idea why Falco requires his projected ECB to be significantly inside the wall but, it is very likely that is the requirement preventing him from using a doraki ledge walljump on stages like FD where he is capable of preforming a reverse doraki walljump.

    Missfoot is the state you enter when you wavedash off a platform/ledge while holding shield. Just like fall if you enter it for only one frame it does not lose the stored walljump. You can't act out of missfoot but on pokemon stadium when it transforms back from any transformation you can wavedash back off the ledges off of the tiniest ledge I know of in Melee enter Missfoot for one frame and you can still use your reverse walljump later.

    Pass is the state for dropping through a platform/shield dropping. You can act out with an attack, airdodge, or aerial but it does not store the walljump for a single frame unfortunately.

    Fox is capable of storing a walljump while preforming a fully intangible firefox stall on Final Destination. This can be used to Doraki ledge walljump out of the invincible stall or to return on stage with a walljump stored for a later reverse walljump. Fox can also run off stage double jump back into FD and illusion to the ledge and store a walljump.


    Update 9/14
    I have discovered a way to activate a doublejump without ever entering freefall/doublejump state for even one frame by jumping and walljumping on the same frame. This is entirely useless as walljumping will lose the stored walljump but it is good to know it is possible to enter a jump and another input on the same frame and avoid entering freefall.

    Areas Worth Exploring Testing
    These are some areas I never got around to testing or tested a small amount without success but not enough to rule out potential work arounds.

    Finding a way to trigger a double jump and any other action that would avoid putting you into a double jump state for one frame which kills the stored walljump. If this is found somehow this means any character could easily double walljump off the bottom of FoD or Pokemon Stadium, recovery would just be ridiculous if a method is found.

    Testing ledge walljumps and reverse ledge walljumps with different characters on different stages with different ledge grab methods to manipulate ECB. Kadano has a post about how Fox's action before grabbing a ledge like wavedash into fastfall, firefox stall, and drop from ledge double jump have separate ECB since all of these options trigger the 10 frame ECB freeze when going into the air and grab the ledge quick enough that the ledge grab animations ends letting them drop from the ledge with different ECBs. Potentially some ECBs will allow ledge walljumps on new characters for some characters or allow characters who normally couldn't on FD to now be capable.

    More testing, better methods to determine what causes Falco to normally be unable to ledge walljump in the hopes of finding a work around. Similar testing could be done with Falcon and Pichu but I think my theory has a decent chance of already explaining that.

    Reversing walljump tech or finding ways to manipulate walltech, walltech jump, and rooftech to find new walljump glitches.

    Exploring the list of character states to test exactly what does and does not lose the stored walljump.

    Any manipulation to make walljumps easier to store like somehow storing a reverse walljump on the same wall you want to reverse walljump off or finding a way to just straight up stop the game from trying to update if you are hugging the wall at all when airborne. It seems unlikely but there may be some creative ideas that I didn't think about.
     
    #2 Vesne, Sep 11, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
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  3. Varist

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    This is disgustingly cool.
     
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  4. zen-bz-

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    I'm having a main identity crisis.

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    This game's been out for 14 years and we're still getting new tech
     
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  5. JoeTango

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    Damn, more tech to learn...
     
  6. AirFair

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    The amount of work you must have put in.. great work!
     
  7. Vestboy_Myst

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    NJ TO & Peach knitwit

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    nice documentation
     
  8. #HBC | ZoZo

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    Of course FOX on FINAL DESTINATION has some of the best usage of this. Ty based Sakurai.
     
  9. hectohertz

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    how do you setup the sheik reverse ledge wall jump you show on FD?
     
  10. victinivcreate1

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    How do you set up Falco's reverse WJ on FD? There's a GIF with Falco doing it but you don't explain how to do it at all.
     
  11. Vesne

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    @hectohertz and @victinivcreate1 I mention the method to storing walljumps in the fifth paragraph.
    So the order of events are
    1) Walk/run off stage
    2) Jump backwards into FD's wall so that you have some momentum when you initially contact the wall
    3) Wait until any frame where your character is hugging a walljump capable wall
    4) Use airdodge or Up-B with Sheik. Use airdodge, Up-B, or Side-B as Falco
    5) Use recovery to grab the ledge and use any get up from ledge option except jump from ledge or recover directly back on stage
    6) Your walljump is stored and you can use the general movement option and character specific moves listed in my original post to navigate to the opposite wall or to a ledge if your character is capable of reverse ledge walljumping.

    These are not the only ways to store a walljump and this is not the full explanation/information on storing a walljump! This is just the simplified answer to make it easier to understand and use. Please refer to my original post and section in my 2nd post called "Additional Information On Walljumps" for the full in-depth explanation.

    If you are having trouble storing a walljump even after reading this reply then you are most likely failing step 3. FD's wall are deceptive and their actual collision is not what exactly what you would assume. Here is an image of FD's collision. Using debug mode it will use different colors to indicate whether a section of the stage is considered a floor, roof, left wall, or right wall. Floors are grey, roofs is red, left walls are blue, and right walls are green. You can't walljump on roofs or floors which is obvious on FD but isn't as clear on Battlefield or FoD. I would highly recommend using the flat wall of FD's ledge and timing your backwards double jump so you just barely avoid rising high enough to recover on stage. This will avoid accidentally dropping slightly below the flat section of FD's wall when you start your recovery move and failing to store the walljump since you wouldn't be hugging the extremely angled wall below. I would also suggest when learning to store walljumps to get consistent at doing a normal walljump off of the first wall and once you have that down simply use a recovery option instead of pressing analog away.

    @victinivcreate1 the fastest/easiest option for Falco to get to the opposite ledge after returning on stage with a stored walljump is with his Up-B. You can make it very easy but very slow by walking to the opposite ledge turning around and doing a straight up Up-B (without starting double at all, can avoid this by slowly moving analog up before pressing B) and then drifting slightly back to grab the ledge. The much faster but slightly harder option is running up to the opposite ledge and starting an Up-B right before you would fall off. If timed right Falco will start his Up-B on stage but the momentum form his run will push him far enough off stage he can angle his Up-B to the ledge and sweetspot (Fox uses this technique in this GFY and shows storing the walljmup with an airdodge and an illusion). To reverse ledge walljmup on FD with Falco drop for one frame then press analog in the next frame. You should definitely use c-stick down or away to avoid fastfalling or drifting off the wall. If you do a stand from ledge you pressed analog too soon after c-stick. If you just drop from ledge without walljumping at all you pressed analog too late.

    @hectohertz Sheik is not capable of reverse ledge walljumping on FD but is capable of reverse walljumping off the flat wall of FD's ledge like in the joke gif "Sheik showing the most over powered use of double walljump". Since Sheik needs to avoid entering freefall until she is hugging the wall she needs to time a frame perfect aerial/special move out of jumpsquat so she is in jumpsquat one frame and in an attack the next but never in freefall. The easiest short hop/full hop and attack combination I found is a short hop into up-air. Sheik actually has one of the easiest attack out of jumpsquat reverse walljumps. This is because if she walks all the way up to the ledge and jumps she will be pushed off the ledge without any analog inputs, this means you don't need to time a drift forwards then drift back, and still set analog neutral before pressing analog in to jump like some characters. She also has a thin enough ECB that when she if pushed slightly off stage by the ledge it isn't far enough to kill the reverse walljump. So Sheik can walk up to the ledge, start a short hop, on exactly the 3rd frame input an up-air and let herself fall down to the ledge. The window to input the analog is 1 frame but can be buffered up to 2 frames earlier by just holding analog in until you see the walljump activate. The latest analog in can be inputted is frame 39 but can be inputted and held on frame 37 or 38. If you land on stage you inputted analog in too early, if you failed to walljump you inputted it to late. Frame 37 is the first frame you are shifted forwards by the ledge and Sheik's butt is still slightly above and away from the ledge.

    Sheik can't reverse ledge walljump so grabbing the opposite ledge and dropping from it for even 1 frame will lose the walljump. You can still grab the ledge with Up-B by walking up to the ledge facing away and doing an Up-B straight up and then drifting back or preforming a "Edge-cancelled Vanish". However you can't use the walljump from the ledge or drop at all only get back on stage with the original walljump still stored (only useful for edgehogging and keeping a stored walljump).

    It is possible for Sheik to use the 1 frame of freefall that still stores your walljump when you run/slide off the stage and frame perfect start an aerial and then drift into a wall before entering freefall. The only stage I think there is any chance of this working is Yoshi's Story as the wall is long enough and is also perfectly flat once off screen and is not too far to drift into like on FoD or Pokemon Stadium. So if there is a setup with Sheik running offstage and starting an aerial (or special, needles?) and her initial collision with the wall has enough momentum in theory she should be capable of reverse walljumping with that method as well. Remember that your ECB shifting away from the wall will kill reverse walljumps so the slight slope below Randall's entrance and exit will kill the reverse walljump. So you need to either contact the same flat section of the wall your move will end and you will walljump off of or contact the wall below the lower Randall entrance/exit.
     
    #11 Vesne, Sep 13, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  12. hectohertz

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    thank you for the super in depth response! :D

    any chance you could make a gif of sheik performing the entire reverse walljump (with the setup and everything). im still having a hard time visualizing it.


    and follow up question: what other levels could she perform similar maneuvers? i assume BF is out the question and i'll be labbing up YS stuff b/c of what you discussed. what about a similar setup as the sh uair on fountain/DL/the regular stadium ledges.
     
    #12 hectohertz, Sep 13, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  13. pagedMov

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    Damn son, where'd you find this? ヽ( ͡°╭͜ʖ╮͡° )ノ
     
  14. reverie2

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    So if i'm understanding correctly, first we store the walljump by jumping while hugging, and then before you start falling downwards, you air dodge or up-b or side-b to put yourself above stage and land using specialfreefall. Then you can walk (or use any of the navigation options you mentioned) to the other side (or even the same ledge), and hang onto the ledge using a special (and avoid regular free fall, but you can be in regular free fall for 1 frame before you use your special navigation to hang back onto the ledge). Then once you're onto the ledge, how do you jump forwards? I know you can jump backwards by doing back on the control stick, but not sure how to do it forwards.
     
    #14 reverie2, Sep 13, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
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  15. Vesne

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    @hectohertz I won't be recording any more gameplay and making more gifs but I am hoping that since the posts on r/smashbros and r/ssbm got a fair amount of attention that some content creators will make a video about this new tech since a lot of people seem interested. Best I can do is upload the gfycat of Sheik's two reverse walljump setups on Randall which include her storing a walljump with airdodge from both sides of Yoshi's Story.

    Reverse walljump off Randall right side.

    Reverse walljump off Randall left side.

    The running off stage, backwards jump into airdodge back on stage is the relevant part of the GFYs but if you are interested in the required inputs once on Randall to activate the reverse walljump here are the inputs, from the Randall setups section of my 2nd post.
    I can't say for certain on what stages it will and won't work on but your best friend will be this imgur gallery
    so you can see exactly what the shapes of for the walls on each of the legal stages. FoD, Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland, and Final Destination all have a flat or near flat surface right at the beginning of the ledge which means the short hop up-air might work on those stages. However the only reason I recommended the short hop up-air for FD is because that jump height and aerial is perfect for entering freefall right as you reach the lip of FD so you could use a longer lasting move and different jump heights so that you can enter freefall lower than on the FD example.


    @reverie2 The reply you are summarizing is me explaining the easiest ways to store a walljump specifically on Final Destination for Falco and Sheik (which was also simplified from the complete explanation). So some of what you are paraphrasing is an accurate understanding of what I wrote in that reply but I can't straight up say that it is correct or users will read my reply and be getting misinformation. I will do my best to clarify or correct your reply so you can hopefully get a better understanding.
    Jumping is simply a method to drift into a wall and is not connected to storing a walljump. Your intial contact with a wall needs to be above a certain horizontal speed to trigger the ability to walljump. If you couldn't activate a walljump from a wall you can't store a walljump from a wall. This is why I recommend doing a backwards jump into the wall so that they will have the required momentum when first touching the wall.
    Falling downwards does not directly relate with storing or losing a stored walljump. I suggested to use an Up-B or airdodge before you fall on FD as if you look at FD's actual walls shape in this imgur gallery
    you can clearly see that once below the flat wall by the ledge it cuts sharply in much faster than any character could drift to stay hugging the wall. Since you need to be hugging the wall when you use your airdodge or Up-B to store the walljump you can avoid accidentally falling too low and losing contact with the wall when it cuts in by simply using your airdodge or Up-B before you start falling.
    This is all correct, you use a recovery move to land back on stage and since the freefall from a special move like an airdodge or Up-B is separate from regular freefall even though it appears you are in freefall the game is not checking if you are still hugging a wall and realizing it shouldn't keep storing your walljump.
    This seems like you may understand it properly but I am not certain by just reading the way you wrote it so I will clarify in case there is something you didn't already know. We are using special moves to get on the ledge typically an Up-B but we don't need to enter speciallfreefall and once you have grabbed the ledge the method you used to grab it are no longer relevant we just require using special moves as that is the only current method to grab the ledge without losing the stored walljump.

    I think may be some misunderstanding over the 1 frame of freefall that you mentioned. If you are Falco or Sheik and use the running Up-B and use your running momentum to push your Up-B slightly off stage so you can angle in you are never in regular freefall at all. You start an Up-B grounded while running and are then in the Up-B's action and then in special freefall. The 1 frame of freefall that will store the walljump is not necessary to use at all in my suggestion for an easy method to store and use a walljump on FD with Falco/Sheik. The 1 frame of allowed freefall is anytime you run/walk/wavedash off the stage. The only character that would need to use this is Mario since his Up-B can't be use to grab the ledge from on stage (he goes too far forwards). So Mario will wavedash back and use this 1 frame to input an airdodge up. Now in airdodge his walljump is stored as he falls down and grabs the ledge while in specialfreefall.

    Dropping from the ledge for a single frame does not necessarily keep your walljump stored at all. Being able to drop from the ledge at all and keep your walljump stored is based on where your character appears once releasing from the stage. If your character drops too low or far away and is no longer hugging the wall for even 1 frame they will lose their walljump. However if your character will still be hugging the wall once you release the ledge you will not lose your walljump until the next frame where you are no longer hugging the wall.
    This is directly connected to the last paragraph on your previous sentence. If you are using a character that when they release from the ledge will still be hugging the wall on the next frame if you press analog into the wall on that exact frame you will activate the reverse walljump.
     
    #15 Vesne, Sep 14, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
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  16. CAUP

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    Dang it! I was messing around with Young Link's grapple on Four side and did this and thought is was cool. I should have posted something.

    Great job on this! The in depth look on everything is just great!

    Yo might as well say it while it still hasn't been said. I saw a reverse tech once. The tech animation was away from the wall.
     
    #16 CAUP, Sep 14, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  17. Vesne

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    @CAUP Do you remember any information about when you saw the reverse tech? If you still know the answers to any of the questions it would make figuring out how it works much easier.

    1) Was it on an Emulator/Gamecube/Wii?
    2) NTSC or PAL?
    3) 1.00, 1.01, 1.02? (If it was your copy could simply check)
    4) Is there even 1% chance it was done on a modded version of Melee like 20xx or SD Remix and not on vanilla Melee?
    6) Any of the characters being used?
    7) Stage it happened on?
    7) Was it off of any specific part of a wall or off a platform?
    8) Was it a regular wall tech or a walljump tech?
    9) Any other notable information?
     
  18. CAUP

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    First off I want to say that I could have saw incorrectly. I do not think I did but that is a possibility. My brother was playing and he didn't know what I was talking about when I paused and brought it up.

    1) No
    2) NTSC
    3) 1.02
    4) No
    5) I'm not positive about who I was but my brother who teched was playing as Ganondorf.
    6) Yoshi's
    7) It was fairly near the top of the wall on the left side.
    8) Had to think about this a bit. It must have been a regular wall tech because he didn't do any weird jump inwards toward the stage if I'm not mistaken.
    9) My game has done weird things on Yoshi's before. One time the music just didn't come on. I'm sure it is a totally normal disk though. And I personally think the lack of music on Yohsi's is just some rare undoccumentented thing.

    I THINK (I am not sure) I was playing as Marth and forward smashed him while standing on Randal. I'm really not sure about that but I am sure I was off the ledge when I hit him.
     
  19. Vesne

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    Interesting appreciate the information, was it on a Gamecube or a Wii? If I had to guess I think he did a tech on Randall right as he was disappearing so Randall might not have even been visible once the camera fully panned. You can in this video how deceptive looking slide off techs can be. At first it looks like some kind of walljump tech done on the platform but it is a tech in place with enough momentum to slide off the platform into a mid air jump up-air. Yoshi's Story having no music is not something I have heard of at all and I enjoy spending time looking for glitches I wasn't aware of. You can directly turn off music in Melee's settings but if you mean just Yoshi's Story having no music it is definitely possible your disc is not working entirely as intended.
     
  20. idol

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    How do people call this new tech when its from 2009.
     
  21. CAUP

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    Maybe that was it? I really don't think so. The distinctive thing about it was that Ganon was facing in toward the stage with his back on an invisible wall. It is more likely my eyes just messed with me.

    Anyway.. Yeah, I don't want to take up more space in this great thread. Great, well documented discovery :)
     
  22. Vesne

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    @idol The ability to reverse walljump in Melee is not new but new tricks allowing you to apply them in different ways is new. It is open to interpretation but when something like waveshining was first discovered I would consider it a new technique even though wavedashing already existed. There are entirely new tricks like special moves, attacks out of jumpsquat, or using a 1 frame window when running off the map to let you do brand new tricks with reverse walljumps like a reverse ledge walljump.

    I completely understand why some people may not view this a new tech since techs do not have an official exact definition but I think the amount of new information, tricks, and applications for me to personally label it as new tech. In the end it really doesn't matter if it is new or not I just wanted to share all my new discoveries and notes from my testing so everyone would have access to it.

    @CAUP Since you think it is unlikely it was just a slide off tech I will definitely put in on my list of glitches worth looking into and trying to learn any new information. It is really interesting that Ganon is unique as he was 19 frames of invincibility from walltechs and every other character has 14. He is unique in that if he attacks/jumps after frame 14 his invincibility will instantly end instead of lasting the additional 5 frames, if he walljump techs it will also end it at the standard 14. This very odd and unique difference between his wall tech's and every other characters makes me think you may have seen an actual new glitch with Ganon and not just been tricked by something that looked weird.
     
  23. USAvery

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    Could you make a youtube video on how to do the reverse wall jump from the ledge?
     
  24. reverie2

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    So when you say "This is directly connected to the last paragraph on your previous sentence. If you are using a character that when they release from the ledge will still be hugging the wall on the next frame if you press analog into the wall on that exact frame you will activate the reverse walljump.", there is exactly 1 frame (not earlier or later) to do the wall jump, and that is the frame where you release the edge and are hugging the wall, correct?

    And the only way for fox to reach the ledge is to walk off the ledge and up-b/side-b (you mentioned you wont even be in regular freefall if you just run off and up-b with falco sheik because you have momentum). Fox only has 1 frame after walking/runnign off the stage to immediately up-b/side-b right? Wavedash back air-dodge won't work because you can'thang onto the edge within 1 frame?
     
  25. Vesne

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    There is no reason it couldn't be more than one frame but as far as I remember no one on FD will have more than a one frame window for a reverse ledge walljump except maybe Mario. It is actually possible to increase most characters window to press analog in to perform the reverse ledge walljump on FD if you drop from the ledge by pressing the analog just slighty lower than the down and forward notch on the gamecube controller. This is the furthest forwards you can be holding while dropping from the ledge so you will actually drop from the ledge with slightly more forward momentum. However if you gently press the angle instead of pressing it quickly all the way in it does not give you enough drift to increase the walljump input window and it is nearly impossible to press it quickly and not end up pressing it for 2 frames and activating the fastfall which will drop you too low and lose the stored walljump. Increasing the window by 1 frame isn't helpful since you need to do something overly technical to get it. If you want to practice reverse ledge walljumps on stage like Fourside or Mushroom Kingdom II with long flat walls you will have a much larger window to press analog in since you don't have to worry about staying in contact with the wall since it is perfectly flat.

    To get to the ledge as Fox or Falco you shouldn't use the 1 frame available when walking or sliding off the stage and instead start your Up-B on stage with momentum from a run so even though you start the Up-B on stage it will slide off stage letting you angle in. Side-B can't be used to grab the ledge you want to reverse ledge walljump from as even if you tried to use the 1 frame window you would be too high up and Side-B back on stage. You can use the wavedash back into frame perfect airdodge up since once you start the airdodge you are no longer in freefall but in the airdodge state until you fall and grab the ledge out of the airdodge. If you want to an even easier way to get to the ledge with Fox or Falco with walljump is just walk right up to the ledge face towards the stage and do an Up-B straight up and drift back to the stage.
     
  26. Jay Pay

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    Dude this is so legit! I'd just like to know how the invincibility frames from the ledge interact with the RWJ. If this tech is executed perfectly it may be the aerial move counterpart to the invincible ledge dash, which can affect the meta for characters with walljumps that may not benefit the most from ledgedashing. Thank you for re-discovering this and, more importantly, for showing actual applications for the tech.
     
  27. schmooblidon

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    Hey Evsen, this is some really great documentation. I've been trying to uncover the mechanics of mario's upb walljump, and reading this and the achilles comment on reddit, has helped tremendously. But there are still a few questions that I can't figure out the answers to. I'll break down what I know right now.

    Talking strictly hugging upbwjs, you must hug a wall the frame before you upb. I presume this stores the walljump. On the frame you start to fall downward (can also buffer 2 frames before) up until frame 29, you have a walljump window. You can also reverse walljump pretty easily if you have 2 walls.


    Because this works, we can assume that the walljump byte counter is paused the moment you up-b, then resumes on the frame you start falling.

    On frame 30, the ECB goes inward slightly, and stops touching the wall. It extends back out on frame 31, touching the wall again, but because of the x-coord frame delta, you can't walljump anymore.

    That's all dandy, but if up-b has a sub-interrupt function only when you start falling, why do we need to hug a wall?

    If we upb a little away from the wall, but start touching it before we start falling, we cannot walljump. Now at this point, I'd assume that upbs sub-interrupt walljump function is slightly modified to most other action states. It seems it can only increment, and cannot go from 254 to 0.

    But, we can upb without hugging the wall with very precise positioning.

    A horizontal DI'ed upb walljump has a window on frames 23-29 (21-29 including buffers), and you start falling on frame 23. When starting away from a wall, if we walljump with a horizontal DI'ed upb and start touching the wall on precisely frame 23, we get a walljump window.

    An easy way to set this up in TAS/debug is to walljump and on the frame after PASSIVEWALLJUMP 16.00, perform an up-b with a horizontal x-value of 0.98750 in the opposite direction. You should touch the wall on frame 23, and be able to walljump on frame 24-29. (and yeh this does mean you can infinitely climb walls)

    I have tried to find other setups for different angles (thus different falling frames) but haven't had any success. I don't want to say they don't exist, but if they do, they are a ***** to find.

    There is another way to upb walljump without hugging a wall, that koopatroopa found recently, and it's really ****in weird.


    To set this up, go on FD and hit back once to drop from the ledge. Then on the frame after FALL 3.00 (second cycle) start an upb, and angle it backwards, but return to neutral before the reverse deciding frame (frame 7), this performs an extended upb. Then you will have a walljump window between frames 32-37 (buffer from 30).

    What I observed from this is that the side points of your ECB start touching the wall on frame 31. I want to say that only the side points of the ECB are responsible for walljumps, but I'm not 100% on that. I have replicated this with a regular non-angled upb, and had to make it so the ECB touched on frame 31.

    So I was wondering what you thought of all this? The non-hugging setups seem to go against the logic of the hugging setups. There obviously something going on behind the scenes but I can't figure it out. I'll update this with any new info I find.
     

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