schmooblidon
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2014
- Messages
- 496
This is an explanation for docs but it's the same concept for everyone, most characters just need the hitlag because they move to fast.
WTF is going on?
On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB updates to a set position. In most situations this update will not make much difference, specifically when the ECB on frames 1-9 have already adjusted to the extension or near enough. But when you drop through a platform, your ECB gains more downward extension the longer you fall. So when you double jump after dropping from a platform after a certain amount of frames, the frame 10 update will have a considerable effect and shift his ECB downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then shift into a platform on the frame 10 update and trigger a No-Impact Land.
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ElectricWhirlwindAlligatorgar
Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB update.
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ComplicatedSecondhandAmericanlobster
When you perform an aerial after the double jump, the frame 10 update shift still occurs, and can happen during hitlag. Because the update can happen in hitlag, it makes the tech limited to only a few specific setups. This is because you need to start hitlag when your ECB is above the platform, as your ECB will be frozen until the update. Updating in hitlag also triggers landing, but you will still be stuck on the first frame of the aerial landing animation till hitlag is over. Because of this, you must L-cancel before the update, and mathematically, you suffer 1 frame less lag then an AIA.
[collapse=Fox]
Fox
Aerials
http://gfycat.com/NeighboringDefiniteCockerspaniel
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
14 - nair on 3 (gif)
15 - nair on 4, fair on 2
16 - nair on 5, fair on 3, dair on 4
17 - nair on 6, fair on 4, dair on 5, bair on 6, upair on 2
[/collapse]
[collapse=Falco]
Falco
Aerials
http://gfycat.com/AcademicTepidJunco
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
17 - nair on 6 (gif)
[/collapse]
[collapse=Sheik]
Sheik
Aerials
http://gfycat.com/TinyConventionalAnnelid
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
15 - fair on 2 (gif), bair on 3, upair on 2 (gif)
16 - fair on 3, upair on 3
17 - nair on 5, fair on 3 and 4, upair on 3, bair on 4
18 - nair on 6, fair on 4 and 5, upair on 4 and 5, bair on 5 and 6
19 - nair on 7, fair on 5, upair on 5, bair on 6
[/collapse]
[collapse=Marth]
Marth
NIL
http://gfycat.com/LawfulSardonicChrysomelid
Fastest
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
5 - Fastfall
12 - DoubleJump
21 - Land
22 - can move/attack
Aerials
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
14 - fair on 2.00 (gif)
15 - nair on 2.00 (gif)
http://gfycat.com/TidySophisticatedBetafish
Fair
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
14 - DoubleJump
15 - Fair - need to l-cancel before frame 24
18 - Hit (hitlag starts)
23 - ECB update - Land
30 - can move/attack
Nair
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
15 - DoubleJump
16 - Nair - need to l-cancel before frame 24
21 - Hit (hitlag starts)
24 - ECB update - Land
31 - can move/attack
[/collapse]
[collapse=Doc]
Platform Warp #4
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/TerribleElegantGartersnake
When dropping from a platform, you can get a very quick No Impact Land if you double jump on a specific frame. Once landed, you have only 1 frame of landing lag..
Here is what the frame looks like:
This is the 17th frame of FALL after dropping from a platform without fastfall.
Easy Perfect Waveland
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/LonelyCreepyHorse
Just airdodge left/right the frame you would normally land.
Shielddrop - repeated first frame possible
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/LankyOrganicCanadagoose
Shielddrop > Glide > Dsmash
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/WeeklyDizzyAnteater
Platform Warp Aerial
Upair
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/BronzeDangerousAntipodesgreenparakeet
Nair
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/MasculineThickBrocketdeer
If you use an aerial as you double jump you can "warp" to the platform just as fast, but of course suffer aerial landing lag (can l-cancel). Only Upair and Nair are useful as they grant hitboxes. Due to the nature of the tech, aerials require specific setups to work when hitting an opponent (explained below in WTF section).
Below is a table for both Upair and Nair determining which frame setups will cancel on the platform when there is an opponent to hit. I have added AI setups as they are very similar and occur at similar frames. Hitbox AIs (AIA) require different L-cancel timing though, please read the key below the tables.
|UP-AIR with Hitlag______________________________________________________________
|JUMP ON PASS FRAME|________________UPAIR ON DOUBLE JUMP FRAME___________________
|__________________|____HITBOX ✓/X____|____PW/AI___|____AUTOCANCEL ✓/X__________
|....... 16 .......|........................ 6 ✓ AI X ..........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 17 .......|................... 6 ✓ PW X | 7 X AI X ....................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 18 .......|... 6 ✓ PW X (gif above) | 7 X AI X | 8 X AI X | 9 ✓ AI X ..
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 19 .......|............. 9 X AI X | 10 X AI X | 11 ✓ AI X ..............
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 20 .......|............. 11 X AI X | 12 X AI X | 13 ✓ AI X .............
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 21 .......|....... 12 X AI X | 13 X AI X | 14 X AI X | 15 ✓ AI X .......
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 22 .......|. 14 X AI X | 15 X AI X | 16 X AI X | 17 X AI ✓ | 18 X AI X |..................|...... 19 ✓ AI X | 20 ✓ AI X | 21 ✓ AI X | 22 ✓ AI X .......
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 23 .......|. 16 X AI X | 17 X AI X | 18 X AI X | 19 X AI X | 20 X AI ✓ .
|..................|......................... 21 X AI X .........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 24 .......|. 20 X AI X | 21 X AI X | 22 X AI X | 23 X AI X | 24 X AI X .
|..................|......................... 25 X AI X .........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|NAIR with Hitlag________________________________________________________________
|JUMP ON PASS FRAME|________________NAIR ON DOUBLE JUMP FRAME____________________
|__________________|____HITBOX ✓/X____|____PW/AI___|____AUTOCANCEL ✓/X__________
|....... 17 .......|....................... 7 ✓ PW X ...........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 18 .......|............ 7 ✓ PW X (gif above) | 8 X PW X ................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
Hitbox - Is there an active hitbox before the move cancels
PW - Platform Warp (1 frame less landing lag) (must L-cancel on hitbox frame or before)
AI - Aerial Interrupt (can L-cancel during hitlag)
Autocancel - Aerial immediately cancels and you suffer only standard landing lag, 4 frames,
WTF is going on?
On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB updates to a set position. In most situations this update will not make much difference, specifically when the ECB on frames 1-9 have already adjusted to the extension or near enough. But when you drop through a platform, your ECB gains more downward extension the longer you fall. So when you double jump after dropping from a platform after a certain amount of frames, the frame 10 update will have a considerable effect and shift his ECB downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then shift into a platform on the frame 10 update and trigger a No-Impact Land.
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ElectricWhirlwindAlligatorgar
Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB update.
Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ComplicatedSecondhandAmericanlobster
When you perform an aerial after the double jump, the frame 10 update shift still occurs, and can happen during hitlag. Because the update can happen in hitlag, it makes the tech limited to only a few specific setups. This is because you need to start hitlag when your ECB is above the platform, as your ECB will be frozen until the update. Updating in hitlag also triggers landing, but you will still be stuck on the first frame of the aerial landing animation till hitlag is over. Because of this, you must L-cancel before the update, and mathematically, you suffer 1 frame less lag then an AIA.
- COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same
- COMPATIBLE: Much easier. go here for details: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-tech.308463/
[/collapse]
[collapse=Pikachu]
Pikachu
Aerials
http://gfycat.com/SlightThornyGalago
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
11 - nair on 2
15 - upair on 6 (gif)
[/collapse]
[collapse=Ganon]
NIL
http://gfycat.com/DistinctHandyCuttlefish
fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
3 | 11
[/collapse]
[collapse=Luigi]
Luigi
NIL - Land on DJ frame 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t94_pKNm4k
Fastfall on airbourne frame - DJ on airbourne frame
No FastFall - 20 21 22
12 - 18
13 - 19
14 - 19 20
15 - 19 20
16 - 19 20
Later is pointless
Aerials
http://gfycat.com/HugeColorfulAyeaye
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
15 - upair on 2 (gif)
16 - nair on 4, upair on 2 and 3
17 - nair on 5 upair on 3 and 4
18 - nair on 5, upair on 3 and 4 and 5
19 - nair on 5 and 6 and 7, upair on 3 and 4 and 5
20 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 4 and 5
21 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 4 and 5
22 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 5
[/collapse]
[collapse=Zelda]
NIL
http://gfycat.com/PerfumedGrippingHusky
fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
no fastfall | 16
2 | 11
3 | 11 - gfycat (because you can't ff on the 2nd airborne frame if you shielddrop)
4 | 12
5 | 12
5 | 13
6 | 13
7 | 13
7 | 14
8 | 14
more, follows an obvious pattern
[/collapse]
[collapse=Roy]
NIL
http://gfycat.com/DismalGrimCock
fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
7 | 12 - gfycat
8 | 13
11 | 14
[/collapse]
[collapse=Ness]
Platform drop from top plat
http://gfycat.com/GraciousFarawayAnnelida
On the ledge
http://gfycat.com/HardtofindMadFluke
There are two main setups for this. Fullhop+fast fall and a platform drop. You essentially need to be falling for a certain amount of time before you doublejump. And you doublejump under , but not far under, a platform.
So lets say you are on a platform
1 - Jump
Hold
4 - Jump
31 - can hold down to buffer fastfall
34 - fastfall
53 - doublejump
62 - ecb update, no impact land on platform
63 - can move/attack
This is the setup for a perfect fastfall and thus is the fastest, but you do not need to fastfall perfectly for it to work. You just need to doublejump about when the platform cuts through your neck.
Now let's say your on the top battlefield platform.
0 - Platform drop method
1 - first frame airborne - drift towards lower platform
24 - Doublejump
33 - NIL
34 - can move/attack
You can also dj on 25 instead, thus there is a 2 frame window. You could fastfall to make it quicker too.
I still can't find any setup from the ledge, frame 10 is too early. I even tried abusing manipulation with his up-b. But no dice.
Have to say this is a pretty goofy nil, as ness is literally upside down when he lands.
Did some testing for the top to lower plat NIL on different stages
Battlefield - 2 frame window
Dreamland - 2 frame window
A little difficult to drift far enough.
Yoshis - 1 frame window
FoD
starting positions (low) - 1 frame window
Mid height - 1 frame window
High - 1 frame window
Super low - 2 frame window
PStadium
Forest Transformation top wood plat to lower wood plat - 1 frame window
Rock topleft to bottom left metal sheets - 1 frame window
Rock topleft to middle left metal sheets - 1 frame window
(too many angles to test but most setups will have at least 1 frame window)
Water plats on the right - 1 frame window
You can fastfall them to make them faster, but it changes the size of the window depending on when you fastfall.
[/collapse]
More characters can definitely do this, but I couldn't be bothered to do the whole cast as I wasn't sure how viable this is. Falcon, Peach and Jiggs can't do this, I'll test others by request.
WTF is going on?
On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB updates to a set position. In most situations this update will not make much difference, specifically when the ECB on frames 1-9 have already adjusted to the extension or near enough. But when you drop through a platform, your ECB gains more downward extension the longer you fall. So when you double jump after dropping from a platform after a certain amount of frames, the frame 10 update will have a considerable effect and shift his ECB downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then shift into a platform on the frame 10 update and trigger a No-Impact Land.
Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB update.
When you perform an aerial after the double jump, the frame 10 update shift still occurs, and can happen during hitlag. Because the update can happen in hitlag, it makes the tech limited to only a few specific setups. This is because you need to start hitlag when your ECB is above the platform, as your ECB will be frozen until the update. Updating in hitlag also triggers landing, but you will still be stuck on the first frame of the aerial landing animation till hitlag is over. Because of this, you must L-cancel before the update, and mathematically, you suffer 1 frame less lag then an AIA.
[collapse=Fox]
Fox
Aerials
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
14 - nair on 3 (gif)
15 - nair on 4, fair on 2
16 - nair on 5, fair on 3, dair on 4
17 - nair on 6, fair on 4, dair on 5, bair on 6, upair on 2
[/collapse]
[collapse=Falco]
Falco
Aerials
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
17 - nair on 6 (gif)
[/collapse]
[collapse=Sheik]
Sheik
Aerials
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
15 - fair on 2 (gif), bair on 3, upair on 2 (gif)
16 - fair on 3, upair on 3
17 - nair on 5, fair on 3 and 4, upair on 3, bair on 4
18 - nair on 6, fair on 4 and 5, upair on 4 and 5, bair on 5 and 6
19 - nair on 7, fair on 5, upair on 5, bair on 6
[/collapse]
[collapse=Marth]
Marth
NIL
Fastest
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
5 - Fastfall
12 - DoubleJump
21 - Land
22 - can move/attack
Aerials
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
14 - fair on 2.00 (gif)
15 - nair on 2.00 (gif)
Fair
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
14 - DoubleJump
15 - Fair - need to l-cancel before frame 24
18 - Hit (hitlag starts)
23 - ECB update - Land
30 - can move/attack
Nair
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
15 - DoubleJump
16 - Nair - need to l-cancel before frame 24
21 - Hit (hitlag starts)
24 - ECB update - Land
31 - can move/attack
[/collapse]
[collapse=Doc]
Platform Warp #4
When dropping from a platform, you can get a very quick No Impact Land if you double jump on a specific frame. Once landed, you have only 1 frame of landing lag..
Here is what the frame looks like:
This is the 17th frame of FALL after dropping from a platform without fastfall.
Easy Perfect Waveland
Just airdodge left/right the frame you would normally land.
Shielddrop - repeated first frame possible
Shielddrop > Glide > Dsmash
Platform Warp Aerial
Upair
Nair
If you use an aerial as you double jump you can "warp" to the platform just as fast, but of course suffer aerial landing lag (can l-cancel). Only Upair and Nair are useful as they grant hitboxes. Due to the nature of the tech, aerials require specific setups to work when hitting an opponent (explained below in WTF section).
Below is a table for both Upair and Nair determining which frame setups will cancel on the platform when there is an opponent to hit. I have added AI setups as they are very similar and occur at similar frames. Hitbox AIs (AIA) require different L-cancel timing though, please read the key below the tables.
|UP-AIR with Hitlag______________________________________________________________
|JUMP ON PASS FRAME|________________UPAIR ON DOUBLE JUMP FRAME___________________
|__________________|____HITBOX ✓/X____|____PW/AI___|____AUTOCANCEL ✓/X__________
|....... 16 .......|........................ 6 ✓ AI X ..........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 17 .......|................... 6 ✓ PW X | 7 X AI X ....................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 18 .......|... 6 ✓ PW X (gif above) | 7 X AI X | 8 X AI X | 9 ✓ AI X ..
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 19 .......|............. 9 X AI X | 10 X AI X | 11 ✓ AI X ..............
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 20 .......|............. 11 X AI X | 12 X AI X | 13 ✓ AI X .............
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 21 .......|....... 12 X AI X | 13 X AI X | 14 X AI X | 15 ✓ AI X .......
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 22 .......|. 14 X AI X | 15 X AI X | 16 X AI X | 17 X AI ✓ | 18 X AI X |..................|...... 19 ✓ AI X | 20 ✓ AI X | 21 ✓ AI X | 22 ✓ AI X .......
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 23 .......|. 16 X AI X | 17 X AI X | 18 X AI X | 19 X AI X | 20 X AI ✓ .
|..................|......................... 21 X AI X .........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 24 .......|. 20 X AI X | 21 X AI X | 22 X AI X | 23 X AI X | 24 X AI X .
|..................|......................... 25 X AI X .........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|NAIR with Hitlag________________________________________________________________
|JUMP ON PASS FRAME|________________NAIR ON DOUBLE JUMP FRAME____________________
|__________________|____HITBOX ✓/X____|____PW/AI___|____AUTOCANCEL ✓/X__________
|....... 17 .......|....................... 7 ✓ PW X ...........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 18 .......|............ 7 ✓ PW X (gif above) | 8 X PW X ................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
Hitbox - Is there an active hitbox before the move cancels
PW - Platform Warp (1 frame less landing lag) (must L-cancel on hitbox frame or before)
AI - Aerial Interrupt (can L-cancel during hitlag)
Autocancel - Aerial immediately cancels and you suffer only standard landing lag, 4 frames,
WTF is going on?
On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB updates to a set position. In most situations this update will not make much difference, specifically when the ECB on frames 1-9 have already adjusted to the extension or near enough. But when you drop through a platform, your ECB gains more downward extension the longer you fall. So when you double jump after dropping from a platform after a certain amount of frames, the frame 10 update will have a considerable effect and shift his ECB downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then shift into a platform on the frame 10 update and trigger a No-Impact Land.
Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB update.
When you perform an aerial after the double jump, the frame 10 update shift still occurs, and can happen during hitlag. Because the update can happen in hitlag, it makes the tech limited to only a few specific setups. This is because you need to start hitlag when your ECB is above the platform, as your ECB will be frozen until the update. Updating in hitlag also triggers landing, but you will still be stuck on the first frame of the aerial landing animation till hitlag is over. Because of this, you must L-cancel before the update, and mathematically, you suffer 1 frame less lag then an AIA.
- COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same
- COMPATIBLE: Much easier. go here for details: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-tech.308463/
[/collapse]
[collapse=Pikachu]
Pikachu
Aerials
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
11 - nair on 2
15 - upair on 6 (gif)
[/collapse]
[collapse=Ganon]
NIL
fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
3 | 11
[/collapse]
[collapse=Luigi]
Luigi
NIL - Land on DJ frame 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t94_pKNm4k
Fastfall on airbourne frame - DJ on airbourne frame
No FastFall - 20 21 22
12 - 18
13 - 19
14 - 19 20
15 - 19 20
16 - 19 20
Later is pointless
Aerials
DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
15 - upair on 2 (gif)
16 - nair on 4, upair on 2 and 3
17 - nair on 5 upair on 3 and 4
18 - nair on 5, upair on 3 and 4 and 5
19 - nair on 5 and 6 and 7, upair on 3 and 4 and 5
20 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 4 and 5
21 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 4 and 5
22 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 5
[/collapse]
[collapse=Zelda]
NIL
fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
no fastfall | 16
2 | 11
3 | 11 - gfycat (because you can't ff on the 2nd airborne frame if you shielddrop)
4 | 12
5 | 12
5 | 13
6 | 13
7 | 13
7 | 14
8 | 14
more, follows an obvious pattern
[/collapse]
[collapse=Roy]
NIL
fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
7 | 12 - gfycat
8 | 13
11 | 14
[/collapse]
[collapse=Ness]
Platform drop from top plat
On the ledge
There are two main setups for this. Fullhop+fast fall and a platform drop. You essentially need to be falling for a certain amount of time before you doublejump. And you doublejump under , but not far under, a platform.
So lets say you are on a platform
1 - Jump
Hold
4 - Jump
31 - can hold down to buffer fastfall
34 - fastfall
53 - doublejump
62 - ecb update, no impact land on platform
63 - can move/attack
This is the setup for a perfect fastfall and thus is the fastest, but you do not need to fastfall perfectly for it to work. You just need to doublejump about when the platform cuts through your neck.
Now let's say your on the top battlefield platform.
0 - Platform drop method
1 - first frame airborne - drift towards lower platform
24 - Doublejump
33 - NIL
34 - can move/attack
You can also dj on 25 instead, thus there is a 2 frame window. You could fastfall to make it quicker too.
I still can't find any setup from the ledge, frame 10 is too early. I even tried abusing manipulation with his up-b. But no dice.
Have to say this is a pretty goofy nil, as ness is literally upside down when he lands.
Did some testing for the top to lower plat NIL on different stages
Battlefield - 2 frame window
Dreamland - 2 frame window
A little difficult to drift far enough.
Yoshis - 1 frame window
FoD
starting positions (low) - 1 frame window
Mid height - 1 frame window
High - 1 frame window
Super low - 2 frame window
PStadium
Forest Transformation top wood plat to lower wood plat - 1 frame window
Rock topleft to bottom left metal sheets - 1 frame window
Rock topleft to middle left metal sheets - 1 frame window
(too many angles to test but most setups will have at least 1 frame window)
Water plats on the right - 1 frame window
You can fastfall them to make them faster, but it changes the size of the window depending on when you fastfall.
[/collapse]
More characters can definitely do this, but I couldn't be bothered to do the whole cast as I wasn't sure how viable this is. Falcon, Peach and Jiggs can't do this, I'll test others by request.
Last edited: