New (or so I think?) Pikachu tech I found

[Lomogoto]

Has anyone tried this on down throw? It should have a tiny bit more hitstun. I don't know if it has more endlag or if the greater hitstun is enough to matter but its something to think about.

 

[Pikabunz]

Does it really have more hitstun? Both uthrow and dthrow have nearly identical knockback at high percent.

 

[Lomogoto]

The slight angle of down throw means it takes more knockback before it is too high to connect thunder. The difference may only be a frame and have no utility (i can't check for a good while), but since hitstun is direcrly related to knock back it should give a bigger window. My understanding is that up throw is used to quickly throw (avoid correct DI) and because it is straight up. Down throw also lets us avoid dashing the wrong way if this were to actually combo.

 

[M15t3R E]

What is your experience with down throw -> thunder? Disregarding DI, it is a fact that u-throw throws opponents directly upward and d-throw does not. So one would imagine that u-throw is more reliable for this, at least on paper. Have you found the opposite to be true?

 

[Lomogoto]

Down throw throws at 10° off of straight up while up throw is straight up, but ive found if they DI toward you, you can thunder in place and connect, if they dont DI a dash and buffered thunder connects, and im hoping the DI away can be hit by the rar thunder. So while up throw is straight up, it may make it less reliable since down throw forces them to be in front of us so DI is less read and more reaction.
So for your question, without DI, a buffered thunder out of dash has been reliable for me for down throw at the right percents.
The combo counter says it works. I know that isnt the most reliable thing but its a start.

 

[M15t3R E]

It probably works because it's not expected. I think more often than not I would opt to follow-up with aerials but it's something I will try out.

 

[Lomogoto]

I noticed recently that i have been able to connect blue thunder out of a run by what seems to be cancling the skid animation in the first few frames with thunder
It could also be doing thunder in a certain part of pikachus stride that is a bit slower, im not sure
But when holding the control stick to the side i roll it down a tad bit slower to do down B and it seems to make all the difference.
Im wondering if this is faster than RAR thunder or not.
It also allows you to stay on the gound if the situation makes that more ideal.

 

[Pikabunz]

I think this is something everyone should start learning because it does give us a guarantee thunder if we read their DI. Also this isn't exactly a RAR thunder. I did a frame by frame breakdown of it and the inputs for it are slightly different. You need to jump first, then input thunder and the opposite direction during the jump squat frames.

 

[A10theHero]

I think this is something everyone should start learning because it does give us a guarantee thunder if we read their DI. Also this isn't exactly a RAR thunder. I did a frame by frame breakdown of it and the inputs for it are slightly different. You need to jump first, then input thunder and the opposite direction during the jump squat frames.

Just to clarify, so a RAR thunder is not a combo, but if we jump and then input thunder and the opposite direction like you said, it'll be a true combo?

 

[Uncle Honey]

Another possible issue is that some characters have faster air dodges than others. Ex, DK has a frame 4 air dodge, c.falcon a 3 (my test character), and sheik a 2.

 

[Pikabunz]

I'm saying it's not a "RAR" thunder technically. RAR implies we turn around first, but we can't do that during an initial dash. The backwards input happens during your jump squat. You can't even do it after the jump squat either or you'll do a wavebounce thunder.

The easiest way to do this is to Tap buffer your run first > jump > thunder using a down-back input instead of down
The tap buffer run (just tapping forward to run, not holding it ) is important for this as it gives you less momentum on your dash making the down-back thunder cancel just enough momentum to get hit by your own thunder.

If you want to use hold run buffer then you have to do down thunder to back input during your jump instead. This gives you a little more distance than the other method, but is harder to do imo.

 

[A10theHero]

I'm saying it's not a "RAR" thunder technically. RAR implies we turn around first, but we can't do that during an initial dash. The backwards input happens during your jump squat. You can't even do it after the jump squat either or you'll do a wavebounce thunder.

The easiest way to do this is to Tap buffer your run first > jump > thunder using a down-back input instead of down
The tap buffer run (just tapping forward to run, not holding it ) is important for this as it gives you less momentum on your dash making the down-back thunder cancel just enough momentum to get hit by your own thunder.

If you want to use hold run buffer then you have to do down thunder to back input during your jump instead. This gives you a little more distance than the other method, but is harder to do imo.

Oh, okay, thanks for clarifying.
So as @ U Uncle Honey asked, will this work on characters with Frame 2 air dodges like Sheik, Pikachu, and Mewtwo?

 

[Valamway]

So it's actually a jump-cancel turnaround Thunder?
I was doing an actual RAR Thunder, which wasn't working well because I had to complete the full initial dash like you said.

 

[Pikabunz]

Reposting inputs for both methods.

After up throw while facing right:
(hold buffer) > > + >
or
(tap buffer) > > +

 

[atv1992]

So ESAM is going to use this method from now on, proving my point that this technique is faster than the standard double jump technique. I'm glad you guys are digging it c:

 

[Soul.]

Quick question, is it better to test this out on 2/3 speed on Training until you can get it done, then go to normal speed?

 

[M15t3R E]

So ESAM is going to use this method from now on, proving my point that this technique is faster than the standard double jump technique. I'm glad you guys are digging it c:

Did ESAM say this? And which method is he going to use? Your RARing method or the aerial pivoted thunder method explained above?

 

[Valamway]

Quick question, is it better to test this out on 2/3 speed on Training until you can get it done, then go to normal speed?

I would say it's a matter of preference.
Some people are thrown off by playing in other speeds, while others can carry finger movement across increasing tempos easily.
I only use slo-mo to look at the frames of animation slowly, personally.
I learned all the characters' DACUSs in Brawl without using training mode speed options, so that's my preference.

 

[M15t3R E]

@ Pikabunz What is the purpose for pivoting in the air to do the thunder? Does it make a difference?

 

[Pikabunz]

RAR'ing takes too long.

 

[M15t3R E]

I acknowledge that RARing is slower but my question is does aerial pivoting like that cause the thunder to come out sooner than if you stayed facing the same direction?

 

[Valamway]

If you don't turnaround, you will jump past the Thunder, spiking your opponent harmlessly into the soft, techable ground.

 

[Pikabunz]

Pivoting cancels the momentum from the dash so that the thunder actually hits you. If you didn't pivot, the thunder would miss you.

 

[M15t3R E]

Oh that makes sense now that I think about it. Too many times have I cloud spiked opponents into the ground with no ability to follow it up. But no longer. This is a great find!

 

[A10theHero]

I'm not sure if I'm doing this right.
Can somebody post a video of it please?

 

[Pikabunz]

Okay, so I was wrong when I said you can't RAR during the initial dash. You only have to wait 5 frames before you can RAR which is still fast enough to do this.
So an input like this will work:
> > > +

You generally want to input the opposite direction of your run at some point before your jump comes out. Do whatever method feels best for you.

@ A10theHero There's a video of it on the first post.

 

[Soul.]

A "how-to" video would do wonders.
So far I'm trying this out on middleweight characters. Training mode CPUs can't DI right? smh

 

[A10theHero]

@ A10theHero There's a video of it on the first post.

Wait, but that's what I was testing out before. It wasn't a true combo.

A "how-to" video would do wonders.
So far I'm trying this out on middleweight characters. Training mode CPUs can't DI right? smh

CPUs in Training mode rarely DI if they're set to "Stop". What I did was first grab a Lv 9 CPU, switch it to "Attack" and then throw it upwards. It will DI then. However, for some reason, the CPUs will never try to air dodge the Thunder, so the combo counter will always count it as a true combo.

 

[Ritronaut]

A "how-to" video would do wonders.
So far I'm trying this out on middleweight characters. Training mode CPUs can't DI right? smh

If you set them to attack and level 9 they will.

 

[Lomogoto]

I noticed in 1/4 speed trianing that you can, instead of b-reversing or raring, do a backflip out of dash (this often results in a b-reverse but the backflip is what actually cancles forward momentum) to connect thunder. It feels much quicker than rar and much easier than b-reversing.

 

[Lomogoto]

The buttons for the backflip thunder are this:
-> + -> +

 

[Kaladin]

EDIT: I NEED TO LEARN TO READ