New (or so I think?) Pikachu tech I found

[atv1992]

I've always wondered is there a way to always get the up throw thunder follow-up if you read the DI correctly....?

...There is a way....

Now you may be thinking: What the hell is this man talking about?

Let me explain: I'm not talking about just reading the DI after an up throw and hope thunder hits Pikachu's body, what I'm talking about is that you can actually guarantee the thunder hitting Pikachu. You can perform this by dashing, RARing (this cancels Pikachu's momentum) and immediately thunder (I've found it works best if you Thunder diagonally towards the direction Pikachu's facing).

This technique is HUGE because you can apply it for hard reads as well.

Edit: This technnique is different from the standard double jump technique because you do this with your first jump.

Edit 2: Here's a video of how the combo should look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4DSKAVcooo

 

[carlos11]

I think that's what everyone already does.

 

[atv1992]

I think that's what everyone already does.

Not really:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqR8nfFKNnQ
2:15
What Esam is doing right here is that he's actually using his double jump (even though it doesn't look like it) for the thunder to hit him which is a bit "slower" and leaves you without your double jump if you mess up...

 

[Pikabunz]

Nice find. Is it fast enough to true combo?

 

[atv1992]

Nice find. Is it fast enough to true combo?

It is, you can try it in the lab and you'll notice you get the 3 hit combo. Things combo!!! c:

 

[Pikabunz]

The combo counter isn't always reliable. You can air dodge out of some "combos" even though the game says it combos. I'll try this out later to see how much faster it is than the double jump thunder.

 

[ElMoro995]

I haven't still managed to do this combo, my pika still goes too far from the thunder

 

[Ritronaut]

Yeah, RAR cancels momentum and it is possible to do thunder like this, maybe this is new for some people, but I thought people already knew.

I still really don't know if it is always possible to get a thunder out of up throw ever single time, including DI. If this is mastered and truly no DI can escape it as long as the Pikachu reads it, then Pikachu now has a valid kill confirm out of grab.

This could be HUGE as it now could nullify the shields that have forsaken us for far too long, and could fix our killing struggle. This is just wishful thinking, but really, if a kill confirm out of grab is always possible, it would be incredible for Pikachu. I think how far you DI also depends on air movement right? Correct me if I am incorrect. This could mean characters such as Yoshi (can he double jump out of it ?) Jiggs Wario Roy or ZSS could possibly escape it.

 

[ShadowKing]

Like some said nice fine and when practiceing watch the video over and overover untill you master it

 

[Uncle Honey]

I'd need to see it.

 

[Valamway]

The combo counter isn't always reliable. You can air dodge out of some "combos" even though the game says it combos. I'll try this out later to see how much faster it is than the double jump thunder.

I've never heard this before...
In fact, I've heard many times that the opposite is true; the combo counter resets if more than one frame goes by without hitstun, but this means that moves that are within a small handful of frames from true comboing don't register as combos (as it takes more than 1 or 2 frames to actually be able to jump, airdodge, or attack).

So are you saying that sometimes the combo counter registers things that aren't combos, as well as sometimes not registering things that are functional true combos?
What makes it do that?

 

[ShadowKing]

I'd need to see it.

What do you need to see?

 

[Uncle Honey]

What do you need to see?

The uthrow > rar > thunder he's talking about.

 

[Valamway]

The uthrow > rar > thunder he's talking about.

I think shadowking's point was that it's pretty easy to visualize.
Or maybe he was legitimately asking; I tend to assume sarcasm and passive-aggresion online because that's what kind of person I am.

It is easy to imagine, but it's hard to think that is somehow guaranteed even on great DI

 

[M15t3R E]

The uthrow > rar > thunder he's talking about.

He linked to a video. However, I don't see a RAR. ESAM doesn't even turn around.

 

[Valamway]

He linked to a video. However, I don't see a RAR. ESAM doesn't even turn around.

The video he linked was of ESAM not RARing, as proof that this tech isn't always utilized.
However, I think that it being not utilized often could be telling as far as its effectiveness goes.

 

[M15t3R E]

The video he linked was of ESAM not RARing, as proof that this tech isn't always utilized.
However, I think that it being not utilized often could be telling as far as its effectiveness goes.

Does that make sense to you? Why post a link to demonstrate that this awesome new technique is not always utilized rather than actually showcasing the technique? I think we need to see a video of this technique actually being utilized.

 

[Valamway]

Does that make sense to you?

It very much makes sense in the context of the thread; it's not like he linked that video in the OP.

I agree that this deserves some video proof and some experimentation though, and Pikabunz said he would do just that.
I do trust his testing, but I might do some myself since I'm impatient.
I could also probably make a video.

 

[M15t3R E]

It very much makes sense in the context of the thread; it's not like he linked that video in the OP.

I agree that this deserves some video proof and some experimentation though, and Pikabunz said he would do just that.
I do trust his testing, but I might do some myself since I'm impatient.
I could also probably make a video.

I feel as though if thunder could be guaranteed following u-throw it would have been discovered long ago, but you never know. I'll do my own testing as well.

 

[Ritronaut]

I've never heard this before...
In fact, I've heard many times that the opposite is true; the combo counter resets if more than one frame goes by without hitstun, but this means that moves that are within a small handful of frames from true comboing don't register as combos (as it takes more than 1 or 2 frames to actually be able to jump, airdodge, or attack).

So are you saying that sometimes the combo counter registers things that aren't combos, as well as sometimes not registering things that are functional true combos?
What makes it do that?

 

[Ritronaut]

Does that make sense to you? Why post a link to demonstrate that this awesome new technique is not always utilized rather than actually showcasing the technique? I think we need to see a video of this technique actually being utilized.

Also, I don't think there really needs to be a video showcasing it, it's really just run, RAR, down B, there's nothing really too hard or technical.

 

[M15t3R E]

Also, I don't think there really needs to be a video showcasing it, it's really just run, RAR, down B, there's nothing really too hard or technical.

That's not the point. We should produce a video covering this not to show how it's done but to show that it is guaranteed against competent human players as claimed. This is why I was disappointed to discover that the link provided did not, in fact, show ESAM performing it. As it stands, I don't have someone else to test this on today. Has anybody else had the opportunity?

 

[Valamway]

That's clearly a glitch with one particular zero-hitstun move.
I haven't seen it before, but I don't see how it proves unreliability for normal moves that have hitstun and knockback.

 

[Ritronaut]

That's clearly a glitch with one particular zero-hitstun move.
I haven't seen it before, but I don't see how it proves unreliability for normal moves that have hitstun and knockback.

it proves that combos on a braindead opponents on stop aren't actually always true, and should never be considered true unless thoroughly tested. I'm tired of people preforming combos on CPUS that don't DI or do anything, and then making hysteria telling people about their combos that would never work. Just because it says it's a true combo, does not actually mean it is one.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I've just done some tests with a friend. When the RAR was executed perfectly, he was unable to airdodge to avoid the thunder.

I do believe this is a true combo, but the execution for it is pretty tight. I still haven't nailed down the timing, so I couldn't really pull it off consistently. Nonetheless, I encourage everyone to test this out themselves in case my friend doesn't know how to air dodge.

 

[Uncle Honey]

I've just done some tests with a friend. When the RAR was executed perfectly, he was unable to airdodge to avoid the thunder.

I do believe this is a true combo, but the execution for it is pretty tight. I still haven't nailed down the timing, so I couldn't really pull it off consistently. Nonetheless, I encourage everyone to test this out themselves in case my friend doesn't know how to air dodge.

Around what percents? The usual?

 

[M15t3R E]

And with the percents that this is executable we have to think about the rage factor that will increase the knockback of our u-throw.
The rage factors always skews data...

 

[Soul.]

Okay after watching that video I now think this is an interesting find, though I think some people knew about this existing.
Should this turn out to be reliable is something we don't know yet [although maybe it is, maybe not]. Nice find regardless.

 

[A10theHero]

So I was testing this out, and I have to say that it's pretty good.
First, I went into training mode and used it against Lv 9 CPUs set to Attack. (Whenever I would use Pikachu's up-throw, 90% of the time, they would DI behind me, so that really helped me test it out ) It did register as a true combo and not once did the CPUs dodge the attack (when I did it right).
After practicing it on light, heavy, and midweight characters in Training Mode, I went into Smash to test it out with the effects of rage being considered. It still worked pretty well, and I'll try and make a video later showcasing the combo. (Before that though, I'll be sure to test it with a human player. Just as a final way of verifying its awesomeness.)
Overall, as long as you can read your opponent's DI, you have a pretty good way of getting the kill.

 

[atv1992]

Well, I'm glad you guys are liking it/experimenting with it c:

Here's another way I use it, for this I was playing against a CPU since my Internet connection isn't viable (lol FG lag really messes up Pikachu) and I couldn't practice it with my friends.

Double jump reads!

https://j.gifs.com/Kr97jY.gif

Get the kill!

https://j.gifs.com/yNjoO5.gif

 

[Ritronaut]

Well, I'm glad you guys are liking it/experimenting with it c:

Here's another way I use it, for this I was playing against a CPU since my Internet connection isn't viable (lol FG lag really messes up Pikachu) and I couldn't practice it with my friends.

Double jump reads!

https://j.gifs.com/Kr97jY.gif

Get the kill!

https://j.gifs.com/yNjoO5.gif

huh, i see you're RARing it, that seems pretty practical actually. I never really thought of RARing to just use it normally, i dunno why

 

[Zanku]

combine that with a single wall jump, and your stalls can get even longer offstage... little hint to try out

 

[Uncle Honey]

I just had my roommate help me try it several times and I was not able to get the thunder to connect at all before he airdodged. I was working in the 120%, 135% and 147% in training mode (so no rage). Has anyone else tried this with a human?

 

[A10theHero]

I tested this with a human player today, and yes, a person can air dodge out of it with no trouble at all. So that means that it's not actually a true combo. What surprised me about this is that the Lv 9 CPUs--the ones who will always airdodge the moment you use a move--don't evade this. Of course, though this isn't a guaranteed way of getting the kill, it's still a valid mixup option. But that's all it can be unfortunately.
Sigh...it seems that a guaranteed kill confirm still remains out of Pikachu's grasp. (It's probably for the best though.)

 

[Uncle Honey]

I tested this with a human player today, and yes, a person can air dodge out of it with no trouble at all. So that means that it's not actually a true combo. What surprised me about this is that the Lv 9 CPUs--the ones who will always airdodge the moment you use a move--don't evade this. Of course, though this isn't a guaranteed way of getting the kill, it's still a valid mixup option. But that's all it can be unfortunately.
Sigh...it seems that a guaranteed kill confirm still remains out of Pikachu's grasp. (It's probably for the best though.)

I want to believe in the dream. I want to believe we aren't doing something right or fast enough.

 

[A10theHero]

I want to believe in the dream. I want to believe we aren't doing something right or fast enough.

I know, I feel the same way. The fact that the Lv 9 CPUs will never dodge this makes it seem like it should work. But unfortunately, the reality is that there's just not enough hitstun from the up throw for it to work. If it had just a little bit more hitstun, then it definitely would be a combo.
But then having a guaranteed kill confirm will make Pikachu super powerful, and then people will call him OP and broken. And then he'd be Diddy'd. And that'd probably leave him worse off in the end.

 

[Soul.]

To be honest, a lot of people have been pessimistic about Pika lately (especially the competitive boards), mainly because it lacks reliable kill confirms. Just imagine how quickly those statements would change if we got a reliable kill confirm.

"omg pika guaranteed top 3 now yas?"

Some people don't consider it top 3 anymore. There are a million other things to worry about than complaining about it. I, myself, don't even know where it stands in a hypothetical tier list anymore. All we know is that we main a good character, but top 3 or 5 remains to be seen.

If up throw had more hitstun to follow it with Thunder it'd do wonders for us, to the point that it would be reliable and not a guessing game of "will my opponent DI it, or will I be getting it this time?". But with other top tiers roaming around, others calling Pika a broken character because of it getting a kill confirm sounds vague at best. lol

 

[A10theHero]

To be honest, a lot of people have been pessimistic about Pika lately (especially the competitive boards), mainly because it lacks reliable kill confirms. Just imagine how quickly those statements would change if we got a reliable kill confirm.

"omg pika guaranteed top 3 now yas?"

Some people don't consider it top 3 anymore. There are a million other things to worry about than complaining about it. I, myself, don't even know where it stands in a hypothetical tier list anymore. All we know is that we main a good character, but top 3 or 5 remains to be seen.

This is true.

If up throw had more hitstun to follow it with Thunder it'd do wonders for us, to the point that it would be reliable and not a guessing game of "will my opponent DI it, or will I be getting it this time?". But with other top tiers roaming around, others calling Pika a broken character because of it getting a kill confirm sounds vague at best. lol

The reason I think people would say that Pikachu's broken is because it's already relatively easy to rack up damage at low percents with Pikachu--not having a kill confirm was what balanced this strength.

 

[Soul.]

This is true.

The reason I think people would say that Pikachu's broken is because it's already relatively easy to rack up damage at low percents with Pikachu--not having a kill confirm was what balanced this strength.

Oh I know. We have more noticeable weaknesses though, such as not having safe pokes (Dtilt is our only good one), poor range and the obvious light weight. Most top tiers have kill confirms; we don't. Having at least one would be a big deal.

I do think it balances out, though. However, I feel like someday, we'll get the buffs we need. I obviously want to believe in the dream.

#optimism

 

[Uncle Honey]

Even if this did work, we'd still have to read DI for one of three directions. Highly doubt a 1/3 kill confirm could be considered broken.