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New Controller Possibilities

PadWarrior

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I actually own and like the new Pro Controller a lot. It's pretty comfortable for me.
 

CloneHat

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Wow, I didn't realize there were so many. I don't have any controllers for the Wii U at the moment, but it looks like they'll be lots of variety.
 

Ray Robo

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Both of those look like better alternatives compared to the Wii U Pro controller.
 

Chiroz

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Why are does controllers better than the Wii U Pro? They look cheaper (as in worse materials), some of them don't seem to have that size and shape that is so natural to hands (Pro Controller is the exact same size and shape as the Xbox 360 controller), they are still wireless.

IMO these controllers don't offer anything but having the control stick back in its original position.

Obviously everyone has their opinions and preferences and if you genuinely prefer that layout its all good. What I believe though is that most people are just afraid of change, I'll help you calm your doubts a bit, for control stick heavy games that only use one or two face buttons (IE: Shooters) the Wii U Pro controller is much, much more comfortable.

Your hands most comfortable position naturally makes your thumbs fall on the stick and the face buttons on any other controller. On the Pro controller though, your thumb naturally falls on top of the control stick. What this means is that on games that use the Control Stick and two of the buttons (The top and most right button) more than the other 2 buttons (the bottom and left most button) it is actually much more comfortable to have this layout. I have tested it over many games and as long as you don't have to use the other 2 face buttons this control is so good.

Smash itself uses 3 face buttons which has me a bit skeptical, but Smash has such a high use of the Control Stick (Smashes and Aerials) that I am inclined to believe the Pro's layout is actually better than the regular layout, you just have to give it a chance.
 

Mr.C

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IMO these controllers don't offer anything but having the control stick back in its original position.
That's why. The position of the right control stick on the Wii Pro controller is strictly inferior compared to other controllers when performing aerial attacks using the c-stick. I'll show you why.



With this layout you're capable of using the c-stick for Dair, Fair, Bair with incredible speed while allowing you to reset your thumb position very quickly. Most people manually use their Uair with the other control-stick due to increase in speed, so you cover every aerial without sacrificing performance or comfortness. You're even capable of using Uair effectively as well since the button layout is to the left of your thumb so a reset is quick.




With the WiiU controller you're capable of using Uair and B/Fair depending on stage position without sacrificing anything. Dair'ing with the c-stick with this layout would be utterly terrible. It's possible, but overall you're at a disadvantage speed/precision wise compared to other layouts.
 

Paradigm

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Why are does controllers better than the Wii U Pro?
I can think of two reasons, both of which you touched on. My guess is you underestimated how important these things can be for some people.


What I believe though is that most people are just afraid of change,
I don't think "afraid" is the right word - I'd probably prefer "apprehensive" but yes, that's probably a large factor. Many of us have been using the same controller for about twelve years now. We're just really accustomed to it and don't want change. If change has to happen, may as well minimize it - find the controller closest to the one with which we are accustomed.

Personally this type of change doesn't bother me, but I could totally understand it bothering someone else.


IMO these controllers don't offer anything but having the control stick back in its original position.
Yes, and for me, that's actually quite important. I hold most videogame controllers in a fashion generally refered to as a "right-handed claw". SNES, the DualShocks, N64, NGC, the Xbox controllers, most portables - all claw. That's just the natural position for me - its what feels comfortable for me. While I can't say for certain until I've tried it, I'm very doubtful this will work anywhat well with the WiiU Pro controller. Assuming I find I enjoy Smash4WiiU or some other WiiU game that necessitates such a controller, I'll most likely put serious time into finding a controller solution that has the right stick in the lower location.

Imagine if a computer mouse company that traditionally makes computer mice for both left-handed and right-handed people stopped making such mice and only made mice for right-handed people. It'd be understandable for the southpaws to look for another mouse company, right? That's basically the position that I find myself in. I completely understand that I'm in a very small minority and don't fault Nintendo for failing to cater to my niche, so long as I am free to investigate alternatives, just as others are doing in this thread.

You're more than welcome to enjoy the new controller. I'm glad it is so comfortable for you. Just understand not everyone finds the same thing comfortable.
 

Chiroz

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A big post
Yes and this is preference, which as I said, if you truly do prefer your control layout its fine, it comes down to preference but people are saying its "better". You cannot define something as better if all you have to back it up is your own preference.

I can think of two reasons, both of which you touched on. My guess is you underestimated how important these things can be for some people.
It isn't that much of an underestimation, it is more of a prediction that people are just not analyzing the controller correctly because human nature means humans are afraid of change, so they will look into all possible negatives to go against something that puts them outside of your comfort zone.

I don't have a problem with someone saying they like GC controller more because they are used to it and their hand just sort of knows it by heart. But saying the GC controller is better (as an affirmation) without a proper analysis is just not the right thing to do (in my opinion).

When the GC controller came out people were completely shocked at the position on the Z button, it seemed much more unnatural and everyone said it was wrong, yet today's controllers have no Z button, instead they have 2 L's and 2 R's and no one says anything anymore, because people noticed that it makes controllers much more comfortable to hold in your hands. (Even if you have to move your index to switch between both L's)



That's why. The position of the right control stick on the Wii Pro controller is strictly inferior compared to other controllers when performing aerial attacks using the c-stick. I'll show you why.



With this layout you're capable of using the c-stick for Dair, Fair, Bair with incredible speed while allowing you to reset your thumb position very quickly. Most people manually use their Uair with the other control-stick due to increase in speed, so you cover every aerial without sacrificing performance or comfortness. You're even capable of using Uair effectively as well since the button layout is to the left of your thumb so a reset is quick.




With the WiiU controller you're capable of using Uair and B/Fair depending on stage position without sacrificing anything. Dair'ing with the c-stick with this layout would be utterly terrible. It's possible, but overall you're at a disadvantage speed/precision wise compared to other layouts.


That's because that's not where your thumb goes, your thumb's neutral position changes to the Control Stick (which makes c-sticking in any and all directions much faster, natural and comfortable than any of the ones you showed). And thus by your analysis the Wii U Pro is strictly superior to the other layouts and using it puts you at an advantage speed/precision wise, Ill explain why.



You are trying to analyze the controller by using something you already know, this is isn't the same as another controller, it is different. Imagine your thumb being at the Control Stick. It makes using all c-stick commands much more comfortable as there is no movement. X and A button are still relatively close and have the same movement pattern as using the c-stick would on a gamecube controller. The only awkward buttons are Y and B. Smash only uses 3 face button. Now lets remember the fact that buttons are customizable on Smash and the fact that the "c-stick" is now in a much more comfortable (and natural) position. This itself is what makes the Wii U Pro actually superior by just editing your controls and not using Y or B buttons at all. (probable the best solution would be mapping jump to R or L)

Let's imagine mapping the jump button to somewhere else and just resting our thumb on the control stick, only needing to move our thumb in order to execute specials which we would have mapped to the X button. What this would mean is that while other controllers might be having you move your thumb from your jump button to the c-stick to perform an aerial this controller will allow me to just perform the aerial with no movement from my thumb (faster and more comfortably). And just as you move from the c-stick to the special button or the special button to the c-stick I can do that too, with just as much ease as you can. I can't see any downside.



- There is no aerial I can't perform faster or more comfortably than you.

- Specials have the same ease/difficulty in both controllers, except you move your thumb from south-west to north-east and I move it the other way around, there is literally no difference in distance or hindrances.

- With the new Tilt system Brawl introduced where Tilts are also doable with the C-Stick then Tilts are just equally as easy/hard to perform by themselves with both of the controllers yet... performing a Tilt after a Smash or an Aerial is much easier and comfortable for the Wii U Pro than it is for other controllers as you literally don't have to move your thumb at all.

- Just as an added bonus, my thumb rests on top of the Control Stick which is actually a more natural and comfortable position than the Y/X button which it will normally lay on other controllers.

Basically by mapping jump to a non-face button you are able to only have to move your thumb for specials, you don't have to move it for any other move at all. And even with specials you have to move it just as much as your opponent has to move it. (And that is only if he mapped specials in the closest button to the c-stick, since he has more face buttons to keep track of, his special button might not be the one closest to the c-stick and then you will also be at an advantage there.)




Try doing a comparison where you only use the X button and your thumb rests on the control stick, you'll see how your own comparison actually tells you that this controller isn't as bad as you give it credit and is probably better in terms of speed and execution (and comfortableness as it is much more comfortable to just rest your thumb where is naturally falls than having to switch back and forth so often).
 

Chauzu

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I'll mostly be playing on the Wii U Gamepad (due to being a lot of people sharing a TV) so it's just about adapting for me - not like I used the 2nd stick a lot either.
 

Chiroz

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This is one of many possible layouts for the control. Thumb movement is very minimal. You can do everything from jumping out of shields to spamming specials, from short hopped specials to tilts without ever moving your thumb except for jabbing.

The extra Smash and Special buttons are just to illustrate different possible customizations for the control (The Smash button is needed to jab, which is the only thing you will need to move your thumb for).
 

El Sabroso

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This is one of many possible layouts for the control. Thumb movement is very minimal. You can do everything from jumping out of shields to spamming specials, from short hopped specials to tilts without ever moving your thumb except for jabbing.

The extra Smash and Special buttons are just to illustrate different possible customizations for the control (The Smash button is needed to jab, which is the only thing you will need to move your thumb for).

your layout looks kind of awkward to me, I got used to the brawl classic controller layout and I'm sure it will be the same basic for WiiU Pro controllers + the customization option that brawl had, and BTW consider the position of the L/R and Zr/Zl buttons of classic in WiiU Pro to be inverted due to position in controller, so WiiU Pro controller would have L/R to Grab and Zl/Zr to use Shield.

 

PadWarrior

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I have the new pro controller and it feels to me like it will be perfect for smash. I wish I could use it for brawl right now. I love the way it feels.
 

Chiroz

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I thought "better" - in this context - was entirely a matter of preference O.o

If a friend and I both like different colors better, is one of is objectively wrong?

No, which is the point, you cannot discuss preference as being better or not. That's why I cannot argue with you, if you prefer the other control type then that is the one you should use.

However what I can discuss is if this controller layout makes c-sticking faster or more comfortable, which it does and thus I can use this analysis to determine if this layout is actually "better" than old controller layouts. Because this controller makes c-sticking faster and more comfortable with not a single drawback (at least none that I tell at the moment, apart from being Wireless that is) then it could be considered superior as this is not preference, it's an actual fact.
 

SmurdeR

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One thing that's been bothering me is the smoothness of the analog sticks on the Wii Classic controller. Are they similar on the Wii U Pro, because if they are, I don't think I'll be able to use it :p. It just feels so...slippery
 

Chiroz

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I don't own a Classic but the Wii U Pro's Control Stick has the same texture as the Nunchuk, only its a bit less mobile.
 

SmurdeR

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Do you know what I mean when it feels too smooth? In comparison to the Gamecube controller
 

Chiroz

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Well, I don't own a Wii Classic, but yea I know what you mean, it has no small lines like the GC controller and the material feels weird, it feels like a GC controller after the rubber breaks from so much use, only worse. It still feels that way I believe :S.
 

SmurdeR

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I meant when you move the sticks around :p, it feels like someone put a dab of butter between the analog stick and the controller, and it feel less snappy than GC.
 

Chiroz

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Oh, I thought you meant the top of the Control Stick. Well as I said earlier this control stick is actually less mobile than a Nun-Chuck, it feels much better, like an actual controller, but it has a huge deadzone, it is still analog but it feels weird just how much you have to move it for it to "start". You get used to it after a while, but all in all its much less mobile, it isn't like the Wii ones.
 

[Corn]

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Classic Controller Pro

Worked in Brawl because I wasnt overly attached to my Gcube controller, it will work in SSB4.
 

DRM4R10

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I'm just gonna use the Wii U gamepad and/or the Wii U pro controller and/or the Classic Controller Pro and/or the Gamecube controller XD.
 

Chiroz

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your layout looks kind of awkward to me, I got used to the brawl classic controller layout and I'm sure it will be the same basic for WiiU Pro controllers + the customization option that brawl had, and BTW consider the position of the L/R and Zr/Zl buttons of classic in WiiU Pro to be inverted due to position in controller, so WiiU Pro controller would have L/R to Grab and Zl/Zr to use Shield.



I hadn't seen your post, lol.

I am not saying my setup is going to be the default one. I was just showing a customization option that allows for quicker inputs and overall less unnecessary movement than other older controllers to prove that the Wii U Pro is not inferior to other layouts.
 

GamerGuy09

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I'm just going to be waiting up to SSB4s release. If they decided to make a Retro Gamecube Controller Remake made by Nintendo, I'll buy it. If they don't, i'm sticking to the normal pro controller.
 

Paradigm

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No, which is the point, you cannot discuss preference as being better or not. That's why I cannot argue with you, if you prefer the other control type then that is the one you should use.

However what I can discuss is if this controller layout makes c-sticking faster or more comfortable, which it does and thus I can use this analysis to determine if this layout is actually "better" than old controller layouts.
Ah, I see. I misunderstood. I thought you were asking why people subjectively prefered other controllers (and asked a question, to which I answered). I think what threw me was your discussion of comfort, which is inherently unique to the individual.

If you mean objectively - things which can be benchmarked, quantified, empirically compared - then we can easily discuss which would be faster at c-sticking. Here I still disagree with you. Right stick in lower position allows for clawing, which is inherently faster. There is no delay from going between face buttons and the right stick. The thumb never has to move off of the right stick.

Because this controller makes c-sticking faster
...objectively untrue for people such as myself, and over-all untrue considering most people could, if they prioritized c-stick speed sufficient, adjust to my grip...

and more comfortable
...completely subjective, and for people such as myself, completely untrue...

with not a single drawback (at least none that I tell at the moment, apart from being Wireless that is)
...again untrue, with respect to people such as myself...

then it could be considered superior as this is not preference, it's an actual fact.
*If* all those were true, then I still would disagree, due the heavy influence of the subjective aspects. If something is objectively better in one way, subjectively debated in others, does not make it objectively better, by my understanding of the terminology. But we don't even have to discuss that, because the axioms on which it is based are all false for at least a segment of the population.

Honestly I'm not convinced you're wrong so much as there is some misunderstanding. You could have an excellent point that is just going over my head. My guess is either you didn't read my initial post explaining my rationale, you didn't understand it, or I still don't don't quite understand what you're trying to say.
 

UMR | donmk

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As a person who is afraid of change, and on the assumption that Wii remote with classic controller is still an option, I will be using this:

http://www.mayflash.com/Products/NINTENDOWiiU/W007.html

Basically, its a Gamecube to classic controller adapter. I've tested it out and I've found the following:

Compared to a classic controller pro, there is a very small delay (I wouldn't have noticed it if I didn't test it out myself). I tested it by having characters do the same attack into each other, and most attacks either hit at the same time or the hitboxes clanked. The only case where an attack went through was when I compared falcon kicks at close range with both falcons kicking to the left of screen. The classic controller falcon hit the Gamecube controlled falcon when it started behind him, but this did not happen when the positions were reversed.

Of course, both of these are inferior to a wired controller in terms of responsiveness, which brings up the question of how the Wii U classic controller talks to the Wii U while it is connected via USB. If it communicates through the USB, then there wont be any wireless lag, so it will be more responsive. The wireless lag is several times greater than the lag that the adapter introduces.

Also, light presses are preserved, which is an important factor.
 

Chiroz

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Ah, I see. I misunderstood. I thought you were asking why people subjectively prefered other controllers (and asked a question, to which I answered). I think what threw me was your discussion of comfort, which is inherently unique to the individual.

If you mean objectively - things which can be benchmarked, quantified, empirically compared - then we can easily discuss which would be faster at c-sticking.

Ok, I understand what you express about comfort and agree with it, but there is also a comfort that is objective, although to a cetain degree. What I mean by this is that there is a reason most car seats are shaped the way they are, there is a reason why forks and knives are the way they are, there is some degree of objectivity when it comes to what is more comfortable. But let's not discuss this particular point any further, let's go into what is completely objective.

...objectively untrue for people such as myself, and over-all untrue considering most people could, if they prioritized c-stick speed sufficient, adjust to my grip...
If we take out the comfort side of the discussion your claw grip can only do as much as the Wii U Pro does, this right hand claw does not add anything that the Wii U Pro doesn't as in fact you are both gripping the control in the exact same manner.

Here I still disagree with you. Right stick in lower position allows for clawing, which is inherently faster. There is no delay from going between face buttons and the right stick. The thumb never has to move off of the right stick.
I just proved to you in my previous posts how by customizing the Wii U Pro your thumb never actually has to move except to perform specials. On a GC controller the thumb has to move in order to perform specials and/or jump unless customized and even when customized the GC controller has less buttons to customize thus making you either lose your instant grab ability or your ability to jump out of a shield.

Even if you truly didn't have to move your thumb except for specials (and jabs), the distance between the Control Stick and the X/A button on the Wii U Pro is actually less than the distance between the C-Stick and any other 2 face buttons on the GC controller which means that depending on how you customize your GC controller you will have at least 1 input that is in fact slower than the Wii U Pro.

Basically the Wii U Pro allows clawing without having to put your hand in an awkward (this term is subjective though) pose and with an extra customizable button. How so can you say it is slower if it allows you to do just exactly what you yourself accustomed your hand to do and even named just because it was faster?

If anything I would say that with the right customization, gripping the control with a right claw would be just as efficient as customizing your Wii U Pro and holding it normally. This is turn means that Clawing is actually faster and more efficient than holding the GC controller by resting your thumb on the facebuttons, and if it is faster and more efficient then I would say so is using the Wii U Pro controller.
 

nLiM8d

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Take it from a guy that finds the benefit in customizable controls, its a bit of a fools gambit to try and discuss robust options with folks. Meaning that people by nature prefer to have the setup tailor made and familiar right out of the box. Doesn't make your perspective flawed by any means, simply that most would rather discover the available possibilities for themselves, which is fine (and probably for the best).

I'm all for it, but even I found the details a little daunting to interpret (I'm sure by now you recognize the styling of my posts). The best way to demonstrate the pros of your setup, although superficial, will be to prove your efficiency during matches.

Folks with their Tuna Can USB adapters will want to know why they can't keep up with their familiar GC pad getup, that is if indeed your setup is more dynamic/accessible.

The thing I'd like to know when it comes down to it, is whether your customization can currently be tested for proficiency. I don't own a Wii U console myself, so I'm not sure how backwards compatibility works.

(Also does 'smash' share the function of the normal A button? Jabs and Charged attacks stem from this button correct?)
 

Chiroz

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Take it from a guy that finds the benefit in customizable controls, its a bit of a fools gambit to try and discuss robust options with folks. Meaning that people by nature prefer to have the setup tailor made and familiar right out of the box. Doesn't make your perspective flawed by any means, simply that most would rather discover the available possibilities for themselves, which is fine (and probably for the best).



I'm all for it, but even I found the details a little daunting to interpret (I'm sure by now you recognize the styling of my posts). The best way to demonstrate the pros of your setup, although superficial, will be to prove your efficiency during matches.

Folks with their Tuna Can USB adapters will want to know why they can't keep up with their familiar GC pad getup, that is if indeed your setup is more dynamic/accessible.

The thing I'd like to know when it comes down to it, is whether your customization can currently be tested for proficiency. I don't own a Wii U console myself, so I'm not sure how backwards compatibility works.

(Also does 'smash' share the function of the normal A button? Jabs and Charged attacks stem from this button correct?)

Unfortunately there is no bakwards compatibility for the controllers.

The smash attack works as the A button, having Jab and Tilts but the button itself would only be used for Jabs since the 2nd control stick can be used for all smashes and tilts.

The basic gist of this layout is creating the least amount of switching between buttons possible. In this layout your thumb does not have to move from the 2nd control stick at all, allowing you to rest it there.
 

nLiM8d

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I've never known the C-Stick (or equivalent in this case) to be capable of handling tilts. I think I've only been able to accomplish that out of a shield (Down tilt only I believe).

It would be nice if the control stick wasn't so damned sensitive so at the very least one could envision tilts functioning through the combination of both sticks, but that's not the case for smash. They default motion and c-stick inputs to register dash attacks, something of which I hate because it diminishes a certain degree of precision.

In either case, there would be a need to move from Stick to face button at some point, that's not to say a shoulder button couldn't be mapped for such purposes. Although I don't think this is what your initial argument entailed, I'm gathering that what you're saying likens to the philosophy behind DI, where 'less is more' attributes to your benefit.

If you asked me, I'd say that it'd be pretty neat if pairing a directional input with a C-stick input allowed you to perform tilts while actual smash attacks were honed to be more deliberate (while in a stationary position or charged). Overall, I'd just like to recognize how tilts are possible through use of the C-Stick, perhaps there's something I overlooked.
 

Chiroz

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If you asked me, I'd say that it'd be pretty neat if pairing a directional input with a C-stick input allowed you to perform tilts while actual smash attacks were honed to be more deliberate (while in a stationary position or charged). Overall, I'd just like to recognize how tilts are possible through use of the C-Stick, perhaps there's something I overlooked.
That's exactly how it works in Brawl :p.

Edit: To be more clear if you pair a directional input with the same direction on the C-Stick it makes a tilt. If you C-Stick while idle or inputting any other direction its a Smash. You can charge your smashes with the grab buttons on the shoulder buttons if you don't want to use the face buttons.
 

nLiM8d

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Haven't played brawl in months, I'll see about testing it again when I get the chance. I figured this would be something I'd remember as I'm a stickler for capable controls.

You can charge your smashes with the grab buttons on the shoulder buttons if you don't want to use the face buttons.
That's always been somewhat of a hit and miss in my experience, but you're not gonna see any nitpicking from me, I recognize your point.
 

Chiroz

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That's always been somewhat of a hit and miss in my experience, but you're not gonna see any nitpicking from me, I recognize your point.
Well that's how I do it in Brawl, I have R mapped to grab and I use C-Stick plus R to charge, I never miss it :p.
 
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