nevermind

[Crazc]

good night guys

 

[WinterShorts]

After a couple months of Melee hiatus, I decided that I should go back to Melee again. So I got my setup all...well...set up, and I booted it on. The first couple of matches felt off (because I hadnt played in about 4 months,) but I kept going, re-familiarizing myself with the controls. I had been playing smash 4 for the past few weeks, so i consistently made mistakes trying to pull of certain moves that are not in Melee, but in smash4. But then I noticed something. People, even me, constantly praised Melee for various things.

One that stuck in my head while I played was the "very fluid" comment. By fluid I mean easy to controll, smooth, etc. But, it's really not. Compared to smash 4 in my opinion, at least. Maybe it's because im not used to the gamecube controller anymore, but I honestly prefer playing on a 3ds than on the gamecube controller. it honestly felt clunky to me, which I never thought I would say.

yes, melee is much faster, but is that really such a good thing? It is also horribly unbalanced in many aspects. just look at some matchups.

I'm not saying Melee is a bad game, don't get me wrong. It's a great game, just not for me. It is the game that gets me uncontrollably angry the easiest, just look at my controller.

I will be playing smash 4 full-time. I'll see you guys there too once playing melee becomes too expensive of a business.

I agree with you on the unbalanced part (I know Brawl isn't at all balanced, but that doesn't excuse how balanced Melee's roster is.) Honestly, look at all the common matches of Melee: Fox vs. Falco, Falco vs. Marth, Jigglypuff vs. Fox, Fox vs. Fox, No items, Fox only, Fox, Fox, Final Destination. Only on rare occasions do players pick different characters like Bowser and Mewtwo. If Melee was truly balanced, I'd love to see consistant matches and don't pick the top 8 characters on the tier list. Sure people can succeed with characters like Yoshi, but those players had to probably put like 10x as much work as the other top 8 characters.

Also, when Melee offers single player, the game is drastically worse. I want to know why the f**k in 1P classic, adventure, and all-star modes the C-stick is limited only to the camera? That is so lame!

Point being, I get you. Melee can't be that good, and sure I'm the guy that prefers Project M over Brawl, but PM has wifi and an actually balanced roster. What i'm saying is that I don't blame you.

 

[Xyzz]

melee is much faster, but is that really such a good thing?

Yes

 

[WinterShorts]

Yes

Unless it's too fast for someone. Like my brother for example (doesn't like the mechanics of Melee. Thinks they're cheap exploits to the game.)

 

[Kadano]

It is the game that gets me uncontrollably angry the easiest, just look at my controller.

Your controller is invisible? That’s pretty cool.

 

[Crazc]

Your controller is invisible? That’s pretty cool.

Thanks, it cost lot to paint it like that, but it was worth it.

<so glad that you completely understood what I meant.>

 

[Crazc]

Yes

Not always. Sometimes it feels rushed.

 

[BO/\K]

Characters with the potential to win a national tournament: Fox Falco Marth Sheik Puff Peach ICs

Characters that can go deep at nationals and win regional tournaments: Falcon Samus Luigi Doc Pika

That's 12 viable characters. Pretty good for a fighting game by any metric. If Melee just had those characters it would be a "very balanced game" if you go by the frankly naive metric of balanced=every character is viable.

That's a pretty non-controversial list of viable characters. I didn't even include Ganon YL Mario Yoshi DK.

Also stop going around and saying PM is more balanced than melee. The game's metagame is infantile compared to Melee's and I'm sure if you put it through the years of tournaments it wouldn't look so amazing.

Speaking of often-spouted but wrong statements, Fox only FD is so far away from the reality of Melee it's pretty comical to say.

If Melee doesn't feel faster and more fluid than Smash 4 to you it's probably because you don't have the physical capability yet to be fast and fluid.

Finally, the only way Smash 4 outlasts Melee is if Nintendo goes out of their way to destroy Melee. 4 is a pretty clear sequel to Brawl, which will fill the void Brawl left.

 

[Bones0]

 

[Crazc]

If melee doesn't feel faster and more fluid than Smash 4 to you it's probably because you don't have the physical capability yet to be fast and fluid.

No, I assure you I do. 8+ years of playing got me that. Melee doesn't feel good to play.

You also some other good points that i didn't want to include.

 

[LovinMitts]

One that stuck in my head while I played was the "very fluid" comment. By fluid I mean easy to controll, smooth, etc. But, it's really not. Compared to smash 4 in my opinion, at least. Maybe it's because im not used to the gamecube controller anymore, but I honestly prefer playing on a 3ds than on the gamecube controller. it honestly felt clunky to me, which I never thought I would say.
.

Dashing in Smash 4 is completely committal. At least you can dashdance or cancel a dash with a crouch in Melee. The best you can do in Smash 4 is do an often laggy dash attack, or simply stop dashing and suffer a horrendously long lag animation.

 

[WinterShorts]

Characters with the potential to win a national tournament: Fox Falco Marth Sheik Puff Peach ICs

Characters that can go deep at nationals and win regional tournaments: Falcon Samus Luigi Doc Pika

That's 12 viable characters. Pretty good for a fighting game by any metric. If Melee just had those characters it would be a "very balanced game" if you go by the frankly naive metric of balanced=every character is viable.

That's a pretty non-controversial list of viable characters. I didn't even include Ganon YL Mario Yoshi DK.

Also stop going around and saying PM is more balanced than melee. The game's metagame is infantile compared to Melee's and I'm sure if you put it through the years of tournaments it wouldn't look so amazing.

Speaking of often-spouted but wrong statements, Fox only FD is so far away from the reality of Melee it's pretty comical to say.

If Melee doesn't feel faster and more fluid than Smash 4 to you it's probably because you don't have the physical capability yet to be fast and fluid.

Finally, the only way Smash 4 outlasts Melee is if Nintendo goes out of their way to destroy Melee. 4 is a pretty clear sequel to Brawl, which will fill the void Brawl left.

Only 12 characters? Well, for a fighting game in the year of 2014 that's the puniest roster I've ever seen. Even if it was 17 when you included the other 5, it's still small. Aren't fightning games today have like 40 to 50 characters in them?

The time I said Fox only FD was meant to be a joke and a joke only. It shouldn't be another point, BTW.

We put MELEE'S metagame out for years, and IT doesn't look very amazing. All I see are Foxes, Falcos, Sheiks, Marths, Puffs, ICs, and on a VERY occasional chance I see characters like Luigi and Mario. I'd believe you when PM's metagame would eventually "not look that amazing", which on that point we would need to move on (Melee players), or PM gets their act together and fix their issues.

 

[MookieRah]

So you come to the melee boards to complain about how you like Smash 4 to melee? Seriously, what did you hope to accomplish here? Do you honestly think your personal insight would somehow magically change peoples's opinions?

Only 12 characters? Well, for a fighting game in the year of 2014 that's the puniest roster I've ever seen. Even if it was 17 when you included the other 5, it's still small. Aren't fightning games today have like 40 to 50 characters in them?

Show me a game with a roster of 40-50 characters that is as balanced as the 12 characters or so listed. Come on, I dare you.

 

[Strofirko]

I think this thread is in the wrong neighborhood.

 

[Veggies]

This thread shouldn't be here and I'm disappointed in every one that replied to such a thread that would only light a fire for a flame war.

 

[WinterShorts]

So you come to the melee boards to complain about how you like Smash 4 to melee? Seriously, what did you hope to accomplish here? Do you honestly think your personal insight would somehow magically change peoples's opinions?


Show me a game with a roster of 40-50 characters that is as balanced as the 12 characters or so listed. Come on, I dare you.

Naurto Shippudden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 is a fighting game with like 88 characters. I've played it before, but I barely have experience from it. From what I'm honestly quickly skimming about what I remember, some people say it's balanced in a way. Even if there were some OP characters, even ban them all, there'd still be like maybe 70 characters. Point being, it's a huge roster by number.

Does that count?

 

[MookieRah]

I'd argue that if that game wasn't so niche and has had the meta developed to melee levels that you wouldn't see that many characters viable. If you want to get my attention you need to bring forward both a game that has a large following, and some actual evidence to it being balanced outside of just your word. As it stands, you have posited that melee's balance is terrible, therefore the burden of proof is on you. I'm not going to spend time researching your claim just because you said so.

Also, while I have only briefly played a couple of the Naruto fighters, it seems that a lot of attacks/movements/etc are largely the same across it's cast, making the differences between characters not as notable (making it more balanced). With less differences in characters, it's inherently easier to balance.

Games like Guilty Gear were able to strike a really good balance because they made sure to equip every character with a set of abilities that augment their offensive and defensive capabilities, and because of that they were able to have an extremely different and diverse cast with a lot of viable characters. Smash also falls under this category, because most of the most important offensive/defensive tech is universal amongst all it's characters. So while there are indeed tiers, several characters that are not quite as good can still be viable due to the shared strengths all/most characters possess.

 

[WinterShorts]

I'd argue that if that game wasn't so niche and has had the meta developed to melee levels that you wouldn't see that many characters viable. If you want to get my attention you need to bring forward both a game that has a large following, and some actual evidence to it being balanced outside of just your word. As it stands, you have posited that melee's balance is terrible, therefore the burden of proof is on you. I'm not going to spend time researching your claim just because you said so.

Also, while I have only briefly played a couple of the Naruto fighters, it seems that a lot of attacks/movements/etc are largely the same across it's cast, making the differences between characters not as notable (making it more balanced). With less differences in characters, it's inherently easier to balance.

Games like Guilty Gear were able to strike a really good balance because they made sure to equip every character with a set of abilities that augment their offensive and defensive capabilities, and because of that they were able to have an extremely different and diverse cast with a lot of viable characters. Smash also falls under this category, because most of the most important offensive/defensive tech is universal amongst all it's characters. So while there are indeed tiers, several characters that are not quite as good can still be viable due to the shared strengths all/most characters possess.

I will say good point. Maybe that was like the only game I thought of when I said "Aren't fighting games supposed to have like 40-50 characters in them?". The only fighting game I'll ever probably touch is anything smash-related, so I honestly don't know that much about other fighting games.

I don't have much else. I still say Melee's not THAT balanced. Sure, more balanced thanks to your post, but as much potential as Ganon and Luigi and characters like that have in the metagame, wouldn't it be still much harder than to use say Fox or Falco? Even with characters told to be average according to the tier list, don't like the high tier characters have more abilities than the others?

 

[EPsilon933]

Finally, the only way Smash 4 outlasts Melee is if Nintendo goes out of their way to destroy Melee. 4 is a pretty clear sequel to Brawl, which will fill the void Brawl left.

you have no idea how big of a flood of new players there are waiting for smash 4 before jumping into the tournament scene

Let me drop some numbers
Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike = 200-300 entrants at EVO events
Street Fighter 4 (all versions) = 1500-2000 entrants at EVO events

Will Smash 4 NOT do the EXACT SAME THING? In both cases, both series had well developed competitive scenes/communities. Also, Smash 4 has ridiculous amounts of hype from like every gamer, not just hardcore/competitive ones

Street Fighter 4 isn't at all as fun as 3rd Strike (which is a seriously good game, just like Melee). It's still good enough on its own to keep its own tournament goers. All Smash 4 needs to be is good enough and it'll greatly outnumber SF4 and SSBM's tournament numbers. Has anyone seen Xanadu's entrant numbers? PM gets like 90 entrants at weekly events and Melee gets like 50 entrants

So you come to the melee boards to complain about how you like Smash 4 to melee? Seriously, what did you hope to accomplish here? Do you honestly think your personal insight would somehow magically change peoples's opinions?


Show me a game with a roster of 40-50 characters that is as balanced as the 12 characters or so listed. Come on, I dare you.

Oh, I'm sorry. Melee is awesome. Forgive me

Also, Ultra Street Fighter 4

 

[MookieRah]

Oh, I'm sorry. Melee is awesome. Forgive me

Or, you know, you could simply realise the point of me saying that is simply to state that the OP seemed unable to put himself in other people's shoes, that perhaps his personal story would have no impact on everyone else?

But, I'm sorry. You just make incredibly biased and unfounded posts. Forgive me.

EDIT: Brawl players said similar things regarding melee along the lines of your SF3 3rd Strike comparison. Since Nintendo hasn't sponsored competitive play outside of that last Evo, there isn't much motivation for us to switch games if the community doesn't want to.

 

[1MachGO]

I will be playing smash 4 full-time. I'll see you guys there too once playing melee becomes too expensive of a business.

LOL this is such an arrogant statement. What are you trying to accomplish?

 

[WinterShorts]

LOL this is such an arrogant statement. What are you trying to accomplish?

What were YOU trying to accomplish with THIS statement?

 

[Accelerator]

you have no idea how big of a flood of new players there are waiting for smash 4 before jumping into the tournament scene

Let me drop some numbers
Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike = 200-300 entrants at EVO events
Street Fighter 4 (all versions) = 1500-2000 entrants at EVO events

Will Smash 4 NOT do the EXACT SAME THING? In both cases, both series had well developed competitive scenes/communities. Also, Smash 4 has ridiculous amounts of hype from like every gamer, not just hardcore/competitive ones

Street Fighter 4 isn't at all as fun as 3rd Strike (which is a seriously good game, just like Melee). It's still good enough on its own to keep its own tournament goers. All Smash 4 needs to be is good enough and it'll greatly outnumber SF4 and SSBM's tournament numbers. Has anyone seen Xanadu's entrant numbers? PM gets like 90 entrants at weekly events and Melee gets like 50 entrants



Oh, I'm sorry. Melee is awesome. Forgive me

Also, Ultra Street Fighter 4

You keep talking about floods of new entrants, but do you know what accessibility means? How many people into the competitive smash scene own a WiiU? Don't even mention 3ds, because doing large scale ones are logistically impossible.

If someone wants to get into Competitive Smash4, they have to buy a WiiU, HDTV, Game, and most likely a GC controller and outlet. That comes out to over 500$.

Now, if someone wants to run a tournament people have to bring setups. How many people do you know are willing to bring a $500 setup to a tournament? How many TO's do you think want to be responsible for such expensive setups?

 

[Crazc]

So you come to the melee boards to complain about how you like Smash 4 to melee? Seriously, what did you hope to accomplish here? Do you honestly think your personal insight would somehow magically change peoples's opinions?

I just wanted to express my opinion. I never intended to attempt to sway people away from Melee.



Lol, reading this thread is actually pretty hilarious. I knew I would be starting something when I posted this.

I actually dont hate melee all that much, I really just wanted to see what would happen if I posted something like this. Apparently this is the result.

 

[cemo]

Essentially : "I wanted to see what would happen when I posted inflammatory statements directed at the forum members"

I don't think you should admit to that.

 

[1MachGO]

What were YOU trying to accomplish with THIS statement?

Is this a serious question. I'm asking him what he is trying to accomplish; pretty cut and dry, man. Now that he has admitted to trolling, I'm not sure what is sadder... us taking the bait or you defending him at every turn.

 

[WinterShorts]

Ugh god what the hell am I doing? Someone lock this thread please.

 

[Crazc]

Ugh god what the hell am I doing? Someone lock this thread please.

would if i could, mate.

 

[WinterShorts]

would if i could, mate.

Eventually some moderator will do it, or this thread will simply be outdated. Eitherway, it'll go to dust.

 

[Accelerator]

I'm really starting to realize how hard Smash4 players are trying to shove this game down people's throats. It's almost like they're worried the transition won't happen naturally because it'll be a great, competitive game!

 

[standardtoaster]

"I actually dont hate melee all that much, I really just wanted to see what would happen if I posted something like this. Apparently this is the result. "

don't purposely antagonize people just for the hell of it