Ness vs Zelda. Advantage or disadvantage

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

......... so many things wrong with what you said, but since people are acting like nobody stated Zelda's advantages (which were stated if you actually READ THE THREAD like you claimed):

- longer reach

- Nayru's Love

- Dsmash is the fastest smash in this match

- a generally better dtilt (isn't as spammable, but still trips, AND it makes the opponent flinch each time it connects)

- disjointed hitboxes

- higher priority (uair and Usmash, notably)

- can gimp Ness easier than he can gimp her; both can travel in several directions, but Zelda travels the whole distance in invincibility frames (not just at the beginning like Ness), is not as predictable, and she gets protection at the end of the attack. Not to mention you can just focus Din on PK Thunder and kill Ness.

- can reflect all of Ness's B attacks

Don't forget that she has an overall higher damage output

She's VERY hard to grab... which sucks for ness

She has more killing power on the whole.... and more kill moves for more versitility

 

[Yuna]

Arguments have already been stated in previous pages and i don't no need to keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Especially if someone is going to call what he has over her minor each time something is brought up. You also partially contradicted yourself. You stated none of these "tools" zelda has to use. If matchup discussions just went, "Blank character has more tools than Blank character" then it wouldn't be much of a discussion at all.

Yes I did. Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, all of which edgeguard Ness very well and KO him at lowish %, Din's Fire (though less useful agaisnt PSI magnet)(I've mentioned all of these). Here more: A recovery that's not so sucky he can easily edgeguard her using Fsmash or something. Zelda both racks up damage easily and KO's early. Not good for Ness, who's quite light and doesn't like getting edgeguarded (and it's not like it's very hard).

Zelda's got disjointed and highly prioritzed hitboxes all over the map to screw him over while recovering. Heck, she outranges and outprioritizes him on both the ground and in the air for the most part.

What does Ness have over Zelda, really? What does Ness have that destroys Zelda? I have yet to see someone present anything like that. It's just random speculation for the most part where someone says "Ness can combo Zelda to death". ORLY? Why Zelda? Why no one else? Also, what are these combos?

I see lots of unsubstatiated generalizations being posted but nothing with real substance to it. If you can present valid argument for why Ness has the advantage, be my guest. If you can prove your case, then I'll admit defeat. But insofar, I have yet to see anyone really post anything of substance.

Also, just saying "Ness can do this to Zelda!" doesn't prove an advantage as it's just one thing. Big picture. Prove. Now. I've read back a few pages. Nothing conclusive at all.

Meanwhile, Ness still gets edgeuarded like crazy. I still say the matchup is fairly even, but with Zelda holding the edge, as opposed to the many people who say Ness has a clear advantage... without motivating their claim.

Prove your claim, how does Ness have an advantage, clear or not? Prove it with more than 4 sentences, also, don't just point out Ness' strengths, point out why they work well against Zelda and why none of Zelda's strengths can make up for them.

 

[GimmeAnFSharp]

^^^

Ness being edgeguarded easy isn't necessarily something that would be too strongly considered. I mean, Ness can be edgeguarded easily by ANYONE- saying that Zelda would have any more relative advantage over Ness due to this faulty trait is kind of moot, since that's true for any character- including a Ness vs. Ness matchup. If Ness is off the stage, no matter who he's fighting, he's in trouble. So saying Zelda has a distinct advantage for this reason, while true, isn't entirely a fair argument when that applies to ALL characters. Ness has advantages over characters that can gimp his recovery- it's really not a huge, single factor to think about.

Now, I don't play Zelda enough vs. Ness to truly grasp the matchup, but from my experience I would feel it's mostly placement. Zelda isn't the most unpredictable of characters; if she's below you, you can almost expect a uair or Up Smash or a Din's Fire if the angle is correct. If she's above you? Expect a dair. To the side in the air? fair or bair. I feel Zelda's most versatile game is in mix, where depending on the character she's fighting she can freely mix up a Neutral-B, DSmash, FSmash, or USmash and tilts/jabs (although I don't see too many tilts) and whatever the opponent freely allows her to punish them for.

And that might not be fair either, because regardless of who she is fighting that will always be the case. But I feel Ness atleast has a significant amount of options for each of these situations provided he knows what he's looking out for.

And I mean, yeah, we can all point out the obvious and be all OMG over Ness' ability to eat her Fires alive. Sure, that slightly gimps her range game a bit.

I don't think there's anything too significant to give Ness an advantage over Zelda, but the insignificant things are there and ultimately Ness players, while they don't necessarily have a true advantage over Zelda, I would say definitely throw off Zelda's A-game.

...perhaps.

 

[Levitas]

Ness is small, so SDI out of Zelda's smashes is fairly easy.

Ness has good aerial control, making it impossible for a zelda to shield grab the ness that is SH aerialing at/away from her. Ness's aerial priority is far better with the exception of Zelda's Uair, which doesn't matter because she can't launch Ness well, with the exception of maybe her dash attack.

Zelda's fire is all but useless against Ness, who has a couple of options to deal with it, and it's risky for the zelda to attempt when the Ness is at a percent higher than 0. Din's fire doesn't edgeguard Ness because a high hit gets magneted, a low hit off the edge aids recovery, and a low hit that kills is on a Ness that's at a percent that he'll never reach against someone playing zelda well.

Ness launches well with several moves (dash attack, uair, yoyo, utilt), and is good at juggling. His uair beats any options Zelda has from above, and he gets another chance if she spot dodges.

Ness kills Zelda at 120% at the latest. Her light weight means that DIing the backthrow up actually kills her sooner, and a Ness will get the kill at 120% regardless of stage position in most situations.

Zelda is in danger of dying to Ness's aerials sooner than that. Ever been killed off the side by a Ness Dair? It has good knockback laterally if it doesn't send you straight down, and the Nair and Bair kill well too.

These are a few of Ness's interactions with Zelda. Now Yuna, I haven't seen a cohesive arguement from your side. Why don't you send one back at us so that you don't just label "wrong" until you decide otherwise.

also, Ness isn't light. 95% of the weight of mario is midweight, and he's heavier than her.

 

[Yuna]

Ness being edgeguarded easy isn't necessarily something that would be too strongly considered. I mean, Ness can be edgeguarded easily by ANYONE- saying that Zelda would have any more relative advantage over Ness due to this faulty trait is kind of moot, since that's true for any character- including a Ness vs. Ness matchup. If Ness is off the stage, no matter who he's fighting, he's in trouble. So saying Zelda has a distinct advantage for this reason, while true, isn't entirely a fair argument when that applies to ALL characters. Ness has advantages over characters that can gimp his recovery- it's really not a huge, single factor to think about.

I'm sorry, I said Zelda has a distinct advange when? Ness has an easily gimpable recovery. And Zelda is one mean edgeguarder because if she can predict people's recoveries, she can KO them at 70-80%. Now, if Ness is facing, I don't know, Peach, he can just DI the hit and survive 'til the 150%'s and still make it back (because of the floatiness in this game).

Against Zelda? Yeah, tough luck. You get edgeguarded by Zelda, you're pretty much dead unless you somehow had less than 40-50% when you were forced to PK Thunder 2.

It's one of Ness' faults, which makes him less than "ZOMG! Distinct advantage!" against Zelda, as so many of you are claiming.

Now, I don't play Zelda enough vs. Ness to truly grasp the matchup, but from my experience I would feel it's mostly placement. Zelda isn't the most unpredictable of characters; if she's below you, you can almost expect a uair or Up Smash or a Din's Fire if the angle is correct. If she's above you? Expect a dair. To the side in the air? fair or bair.

This is different from most characters how? Seriously, how many characters can randomly do mixups of what moves to use when they're above and below you? Very few.

And this matters how, anyway? Zelda is not about shield-pressure. She'll shorthop aerials and try to wear your shield down and look for openings. She's not about hitting your shield 5 times in a row.

And how unpredictable is Ness in the air, anyway?

I feel Zelda's most versatile game is in mix, where depending on the character she's fighting she can freely mix up a Neutral-B, DSmash, FSmash, or USmash and tilts/jabs (although I don't see too many tilts) and whatever the opponent freely allows her to punish them for.

People do not randomly Neutral B... because it's not that good. Zelda's tilts, good stuff (except U-tilt, which is still very situational).

And that might not be fair either, because regardless of who she is fighting that will always be the case. But I feel Ness atleast has a significant amount of options for each of these situations provided he knows what he's looking out for.

Again, as opposed to everyone else? Why is Ness so good against Zelda in this respect? Provide actual arguments instead of "I think he's got the tools". Yeah, what tools?

I don't think there's anything too significant to give Ness an advantage over Zelda, but the insignificant things are there and ultimately Ness players, while they don't necessarily have a true advantage over Zelda, I would say definitely throw off Zelda's A-game.

ZOMG. Zelda has to, gasp, adapt and not play the same way as against most other characters. You know, most good players know how to do this. There are also many matchups in the game where one has to change one's playing style because of the character one's facing.

It doesn't mean an auto-advantage.

Ness is small, so SDI out of Zelda's smashes is fairly easy.

It's not like it's very hard. This is why we try to hit with the end of the smashes.

Ness has good aerial control, making it impossible for a zelda to shield grab the ness that is SH aerialing at/away from her. Ness's aerial priority is far better with the exception of Zelda's Uair, which doesn't matter because she can't launch Ness well, with the exception of maybe her dash attack.

If Ness has such good aerial control people can't shieldgrab him, why isn't he Top Tier, pray tell. Why is his good aerial control which prevents shieldgrabbing not good enough to catapult him into the Top Tier, yet so good against Zelda it's some kind of super-advantage?

Ness doesn't easily get shieldgrabbed, period. And who spams shieldgrabs in Brawl, anyway? There's shielddropped jabs, tilts and smashes, not to mention shieldhopped aerials.

Zelda's fire is all but useless against Ness, who has a couple of options to deal with it, and it's risky for the zelda to attempt when the Ness is at a percent higher than 0. Din's fire doesn't edgeguard Ness because a high hit gets magneted, a low hit off the edge aids recovery, and a low hit that kills is on a Ness that's at a percent that he'll never reach against someone playing zelda well.

1) Good Zelda's don't randomly spam Din's Fire. We use it as a tool for approach, combining Din's Fire with other moves, we mix up the timing, heck, we fake out and have it explode out of range. We're not going to do be doing it in such obvious ways they'll absorb it every single time.
2) "A low hit off the edge aids recovery", um, yeah, but then we do another one. And they might even die from the 1st one if it's strong enough. You do not need tons of damage to die from Din's Fire if you're in the air.
3) Yes, Ness' PSI magnet makes Din's Fire less useful. But it's not useless. And it's only one move. Pit's arrow spamming negates Din's Fire. I guess that's a 10-0 matchup, too.

Ness launches well with several moves (dash attack, uair, yoyo, utilt), and is good at juggling. His uair beats any options Zelda has from above, and he gets another chance if she spot dodges.

1) What does it matter if he can launch with said moves if he lags too much to combo afterwards, anyway?
2) Ness is good at juggling? Wow, how great. It's not like no else in the game can juggle! He's not even that good at juggling! Especially into super-KO:ing moves of doom. So he can rack up damage better than most characters off of a single hit. But what about actually KO:ing people? Meanwhile, Zelda literally only needs 5 hits and then you might die from the next one.

Ness kills Zelda at 120% at the latest. Her light weight means that DIing the backthrow up actually kills her sooner, and a Ness will get the kill at 120% regardless of stage position in most situations.

"Ness kills Zelda at 120% at the latest"? What BS is this? Are you assuming that Ness manages to hit Zelda with the baseball bat every single time? Or a Bair? Bthrow does not KO at 120% last time I checked (though it doesn't need that much).

Meanwhile, if we're gonna assume that Ness nails Zelda with his most lethal KO:ers and kills her "at the latest" at 120% every single stock, let me assume that Zelda nails Ness with her most lethal KO moves every single stock, KO:ing Ness at 70-90%.

Zelda is in danger of dying to Ness's aerials sooner than that. Ever been killed off the side by a Ness Dair? It has good knockback laterally if it doesn't send you straight down, and the Nair and Bair kill well too.

Ever been hit by any of Zelda's Aerials besides Nair?

These are a few of Ness's interactions with Zelda. Now Yuna, I haven't seen a cohesive arguement from your side. Why don't you send one back at us so that you don't just label "wrong" until you decide otherwise.

I haven't seen a cohesive argument from your side. I'm no the one claiming Zelda has a distinct advantage. I'm just saying it's pretty even with Zelda holding a small advantage.

Meanwhile, you guys are just spouting Ness' strengths... strenghts he has against every single other character in the game. What makes his strengths so special in the Zelda vs. Ness matchup? If he's so good, why isn't he Top Tier?

Meanwhile, you're all ignoring Zelda's strengths. The only thing Ness counteracts is her Din's Fire, which becomes non-spammable. Umm... yah. Do you guys think that's all Zelda has or something? The fact that he manages to make it less useful doesn't magically give him an advantageous matchup against her.

She still has everything else.

also, Ness isn't light. 95% of the weight of mario is midweight, and he's heavier than her.

Heavier than Zelda =/= Heavy. He's not lighter than Zelda, no one said he was. But he's hardly heavy, either. And Zelda's moves pack quite the punch, so even if he is heavier than Zelda, Zelda still KOs her earlier than he KOs her.

Also, weight is not the end-all of how good a character is. Zelda, Pit, Pikmin & Olimar, Toon Link, Meta-Knight, all among some of the best characters in the game and all light. So what if she's light? What makes her being light sooooooo much worse against Ness than everyone else?

Prove that Ness is good against Zelda, not that he has tools. No one said Ness has a horrible matchup or that he doesn't have anything on Zelda. But you're just name-dropping tools without motivating why they're so good against Zelda.

The way you guys talk about him, he should be Top Tier since everything you say about him applies to every other matchup in the game. You'd think he'd be Top Tier (Marth aside) since he can KO people really well, juggle people really well, not get shieldgrabbed at all, launch people really well andwhatnot.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Never thought I'd say this but, thank god for Yuna... he's ABSOLUTELY corect.

 

[Ztarfish]

It's not like it's very hard. This is why we try to hit with the end of the smashes.

Wait what? Exactly how much control do you have over that aspect? I mean if you're aiming for the end of the smashes you're either hoping that he's gonna just run into it/let go of his shield, either of which is a mistake anyone playing a Zelda shouldn't ever do.

If Ness has such good aerial control people can't shieldgrab him, why isn't he Top Tier, pray tell. Why is his good aerial control which prevents shieldgrabbing not good enough to catapult him into the Top Tier, yet so good against Zelda it's some kind of super-advantage?

Ness doesn't easily get shieldgrabbed, period. And who spams shieldgrabs in Brawl, anyway? There's shielddropped jabs, tilts and smashes, not to mention shieldhopped aerials.

None of which Zelda can do really effectively, Ness can float out of Fsmash range, and it's not like Zelda has the speed to go running after Ness.

1) Good Zelda's don't randomly spam Din's Fire. We use it as a tool for approach, combining Din's Fire with other moves, we mix up the timing, heck, we fake out and have it explode out of range. We're not going to do be doing it in such obvious ways they'll absorb it every single time.
2) "A low hit off the edge aids recovery", um, yeah, but then we do another one. And they might even die from the 1st one if it's strong enough. You do not need tons of damage to die from Din's Fire if you're in the air.
3) Yes, Ness' PSI magnet makes Din's Fire less useful. But it's not useless. And it's only one move. Pit's arrow spamming negates Din's Fire. I guess that's a 10-0 matchup, too.

1) I'm pretty sure most Ness's are aware that absorbing is pretty situational and that it's 210983019823 times easier to just spotdodge/airdodge it. And I'm pretty sure everyone knows that Din's Fire has a ridiculous hitbox at full length, so I don't really understand why anyone would be fooled by a fakeout. I dunno, maybe I've just gotten too used to Din's.
2) Oh I dunno, if you pop em up and follow up with another Din's, that sounds like a perfect oppurtunity in which to Psi Magnet, to me considering it slows down momentum, etc etc.
3) Din's Fire isn't all that useful to begin with. If anyone is basing this matchup on Din's Fire at all that's just silly.

1) What does it matter if he can launch with said moves if he lags too much to combo afterwards, anyway?
2) Ness is good at juggling? Wow, how great. It's not like no else in the game can juggle! He's not even that good at juggling! Especially into super-KO:ing moves of doom. So he can rack up damage better than most characters off of a single hit. But what about actually KO:ing people? Meanwhile, Zelda literally only needs 5 hits and then you might die from the next one.

1) Dash attack and uptilt have little enough lag that you are able to follow up, and even Usmash at decent percentages can knock Zelda up so high that it's not hard to follow up with. To turn your argument around on you, If Ness is so horribly bad at getting opponents in the air when he wants to where he really shines, why is he not Garbage Tier?
2) Ness can kill Zelda at nearly the same percents Zelda can kill Ness. Hello Ness's backthrow. And is it just me or do Zelda's moves scream HAI GRAB ME cause of their ridiculously long duration?

"Ness kills Zelda at 120% at the latest"? What BS is this? Are you assuming that Ness manages to hit Zelda with the baseball bat every single time? Or a Bair? Bthrow does not KO at 120% last time I checked (though it doesn't need that much).

Meanwhile, if we're gonna assume that Ness nails Zelda with his most lethal KO:ers and kills her "at the latest" at 120% every single stock, let me assume that Zelda nails Ness with her most lethal KO moves every single stock, KO:ing Ness at 70-90%.

You forgot PKT2, which I thought was ******** until I actually played a Ness main that killed me with it nearly every stock. Which by the way can kill Zelda at like 50-60% If hit at the right time. Also Bair's are NOT hard to hit with. Heck I've killed with Bairs on accident. Bthrow does kill at 120% though I'm not sure stage placement doesn't count as Levitas claims. Usually I have to be near the edge of the stage for it to kill at 120%, but that might be because I abuse Dthrow like no other.

Ever been hit by any of Zelda's Aerials besides Nair?

Ouch, they're killer. But I've got to say, not quite as often as Ness's aerials.

I haven't seen a cohesive argument from your side. I'm no the one claiming Zelda has a distinct advantage. I'm just saying it's pretty even with Zelda holding a small advantage.

Meanwhile, you guys are just spouting Ness' strengths... strenghts he has against every single other character in the game. What makes his strengths so special in the Zelda vs. Ness matchup? If he's so good, why isn't he Top Tier?

Meanwhile, you're all ignoring Zelda's strengths. The only thing Ness counteracts is her Din's Fire, which becomes non-spammable. Umm... yah. Do you guys think that's all Zelda has or something? The fact that he manages to make it less useful doesn't magically give him an advantageous matchup against her.

I'm on the total opposite fence. I don't think it's a landslide in Ness's favor. I think it's pretty even too, but I think Ness has a bit more going for him than Zelda does. The whole reason I am here is because I feel as though Zelda users are just spouting Zelda's strengths that every character has to deal with. "Downsmash/Nayru's/Dtilt ***** Ness" well awesome, they tend to do well against every other character in the game as well.

Heavier than Zelda =/= Heavy. He's not lighter than Zelda, no one said he was. But he's hardly heavy, either. And Zelda's moves pack quite the punch, so even if he is heavier than Zelda, Zelda still KOs her earlier than he KOs her.

Her aerials do kill at ridiculously low percents, it's true. But Uair is obscenely easy to see coming, and dodge, and Fair/Bair are obscenely hard to hit with. Her easier KO moves (AKA smashes) actually tend to kill at around the same percents as Ness's KO moves, especially when you consider they'll be decayed cause they're conveniently her best damage builders/defensive weapons as well.

Anyways, like I said I'm not here to argue a landslide case. You said you're here cause Ness users are only spouting Ness's basic strengths? Well I'm doing the same for Zelda users.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Sonic, (like me of course) is a fanboy. Why don't WE stay out of this.

PS: We may not be on the same side but HI YUNA!

Sup.
Remember the Peach board war. Yup. Good times. Good times.

 

[Smashbros_7]

I'm sorry, I said Zelda has a distinct advange when? Ness has an easily gimpable recovery. And Zelda is one mean edgeguarder because if she can predict people's recoveries, she can KO them at 70-80%. Now, if Ness is facing, I don't know, Peach, he can just DI the hit and survive 'til the 150%'s and still make it back (because of the floatiness in this game).

Against Zelda? Yeah, tough luck. You get edgeguarded by Zelda, you're pretty much dead unless you somehow had less than 40-50% when you were forced to PK Thunder 2.

It's one of Ness' faults, which makes him less than "ZOMG! Distinct advantage!" against Zelda, as so many of you are claiming.


This is different from most characters how? Seriously, how many characters can randomly do mixups of what moves to use when they're above and below you? Very few.

And this matters how, anyway? Zelda is not about shield-pressure. She'll shorthop aerials and try to wear your shield down and look for openings. She's not about hitting your shield 5 times in a row.

And how unpredictable is Ness in the air, anyway?


People do not randomly Neutral B... because it's not that good. Zelda's tilts, good stuff (except U-tilt, which is still very situational).


Again, as opposed to everyone else? Why is Ness so good against Zelda in this respect? Provide actual arguments instead of "I think he's got the tools". Yeah, what tools?


ZOMG. Zelda has to, gasp, adapt and not play the same way as against most other characters. You know, most good players know how to do this. There are also many matchups in the game where one has to change one's playing style because of the character one's facing.

It doesn't mean an auto-advantage.


It's not like it's very hard. This is why we try to hit with the end of the smashes.


If Ness has such good aerial control people can't shieldgrab him, why isn't he Top Tier, pray tell. Why is his good aerial control which prevents shieldgrabbing not good enough to catapult him into the Top Tier, yet so good against Zelda it's some kind of super-advantage?

Ness doesn't easily get shieldgrabbed, period. And who spams shieldgrabs in Brawl, anyway? There's shielddropped jabs, tilts and smashes, not to mention shieldhopped aerials.


1) Good Zelda's don't randomly spam Din's Fire. We use it as a tool for approach, combining Din's Fire with other moves, we mix up the timing, heck, we fake out and have it explode out of range. We're not going to do be doing it in such obvious ways they'll absorb it every single time.
2) "A low hit off the edge aids recovery", um, yeah, but then we do another one. And they might even die from the 1st one if it's strong enough. You do not need tons of damage to die from Din's Fire if you're in the air.
3) Yes, Ness' PSI magnet makes Din's Fire less useful. But it's not useless. And it's only one move. Pit's arrow spamming negates Din's Fire. I guess that's a 10-0 matchup, too.


1) What does it matter if he can launch with said moves if he lags too much to combo afterwards, anyway?
2) Ness is good at juggling? Wow, how great. It's not like no else in the game can juggle! He's not even that good at juggling! Especially into super-KO:ing moves of doom. So he can rack up damage better than most characters off of a single hit. But what about actually KO:ing people? Meanwhile, Zelda literally only needs 5 hits and then you might die from the next one.


"Ness kills Zelda at 120% at the latest"? What BS is this? Are you assuming that Ness manages to hit Zelda with the baseball bat every single time? Or a Bair? Bthrow does not KO at 120% last time I checked (though it doesn't need that much).

Meanwhile, if we're gonna assume that Ness nails Zelda with his most lethal KO:ers and kills her "at the latest" at 120% every single stock, let me assume that Zelda nails Ness with her most lethal KO moves every single stock, KO:ing Ness at 70-90%.


Ever been hit by any of Zelda's Aerials besides Nair?


I haven't seen a cohesive argument from your side. I'm no the one claiming Zelda has a distinct advantage. I'm just saying it's pretty even with Zelda holding a small advantage.

Meanwhile, you guys are just spouting Ness' strengths... strenghts he has against every single other character in the game. What makes his strengths so special in the Zelda vs. Ness matchup? If he's so good, why isn't he Top Tier?

Meanwhile, you're all ignoring Zelda's strengths. The only thing Ness counteracts is her Din's Fire, which becomes non-spammable. Umm... yah. Do you guys think that's all Zelda has or something? The fact that he manages to make it less useful doesn't magically give him an advantageous matchup against her.

She still has everything else.


Heavier than Zelda =/= Heavy. He's not lighter than Zelda, no one said he was. But he's hardly heavy, either. And Zelda's moves pack quite the punch, so even if he is heavier than Zelda, Zelda still KOs her earlier than he KOs her.

Also, weight is not the end-all of how good a character is. Zelda, Pit, Pikmin & Olimar, Toon Link, Meta-Knight, all among some of the best characters in the game and all light. So what if she's light? What makes her being light sooooooo much worse against Ness than everyone else?

Prove that Ness is good against Zelda, not that he has tools. No one said Ness has a horrible matchup or that he doesn't have anything on Zelda. But you're just name-dropping tools without motivating why they're so good against Zelda.

The way you guys talk about him, he should be Top Tier since everything you say about him applies to every other matchup in the game. You'd think he'd be Top Tier (Marth aside) since he can KO people really well, juggle people really well, not get shieldgrabbed at all, launch people really well andwhatnot.

No. Yuna! My hero! My main man!


YOU MADE 2 MISTAKES! YOU NEVER MAKE MISTAKES! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


Okay, Ness back throw does kill Zelda at 120%. (shes' much lighter than Pit, not in the same range as those you listed, MK Olimar e.c.t.) Pit is as the same weight as Ness.

Can I add my 2 cents here...

Yuna... I can't believe im saying this to my hero...
You should play against a good Ness main. **** I said it.

Chill out my friend. You are like my best friend on this board. CHILL OUT!

 

[Smashbros_7]

Hey Ztarfish. You main Both Zelda AND Ness. Maybe you can tell us WHO is better.

Yuna, I AM NOT AGAINST YOU!

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Hey Ztarfish. You main Both Zelda AND Ness. Maybe you can tell us WHO is better.

Yuna, I AM NOT AGAINST YOU!

uhm... no offense or anything but, this isn't about who is better between the two. It is about who has a better matchup up against each other.
a better question would be, when you play ness with zelda and when you play zelda with ness
which do you find easier?
that is, if your zelda and ness are equal in skill.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic, (like me of course) is a fanboy. Why don't WE stay out of this.

PS: We may not be on the same side but HI YUNA!

Sup.
Remember the Peach board war. Yup. Good times. Good times.

*procedes to debate two more posts in a row*

lol!!!!!!!!

 

[Brinzy]

Wait what? Exactly how much control do you have over that aspect? I mean if you're aiming for the end of the smashes you're either hoping that he's gonna just run into it/let go of his shield, either of which is a mistake anyone playing a Zelda shouldn't ever do.

That means trying to predict spot-dodges/rolls and timing your smashes so the big hit still connects.

None of which Zelda can do really effectively, Ness can float out of Fsmash range, and it's not like Zelda has the speed to go running after Ness.

He can float out of Fsmash range? You mean, he can do something special to get out of range of Fsmash? What is that? Midair jump? I'm not seeing this.

To say Zelda doesn't have the speed to go after Ness is to say that Ness is so much faster than her, which is untrue. When does Zelda have to chase after Ness at a high speed? If she's trying to close distance, she can just warp. If Ness is too close for her to warp safely... then she definitely doesn't need to worry about running after Ness.

1) I'm pretty sure most Ness's are aware that absorbing is pretty situational and that it's 210983019823 times easier to just spotdodge/airdodge it. And I'm pretty sure everyone knows that Din's Fire has a ridiculous hitbox at full length, so I don't really understand why anyone would be fooled by a fakeout. I dunno, maybe I've just gotten too used to Din's.
2) Oh I dunno, if you pop em up and follow up with another Din's, that sounds like a perfect oppurtunity in which to Psi Magnet, to me considering it slows down momentum, etc etc.
3) Din's Fire isn't all that useful to begin with. If anyone is basing this matchup on Din's Fire at all that's just silly.

1) If most Ness players were aware of this, they wouldn't be making up nonsense like "Ness's PSI magnet shuts down Zelda's Din's Fire approach." PSI magnet makes a bigger impact by keeping the Zelda player wary of throwing out Din's, and that's about it. Again, you might catch Zelda once or twice in a match with PSI magnet, but other than that, most will attempt to just dodge it... and then you have to realize that a lot of people dodge when the fire is right on their body, opening Zelda up to detonating before or after the airdodge due to its large hitbox. Zelda can also detonate right before it's in range of Ness, and more often than not, the Ness player will attempt a dodge or PSI magnet. That's what Yuna means by faking out.

2) True.

3) Din's Fire is underrated in my opinion, but that's not the focus of the argument here.

1) Dash attack and uptilt have little enough lag that you are able to follow up, and even Usmash at decent percentages can knock Zelda up so high that it's not hard to follow up with. To turn your argument around on you, If Ness is so horribly bad at getting opponents in the air when he wants to where he really shines, why is he not Garbage Tier?
2) Ness can kill Zelda at nearly the same percents Zelda can kill Ness. Hello Ness's backthrow. And is it just me or do Zelda's moves scream HAI GRAB ME cause of their ridiculously long duration?

1) The point about the whole "Top Tier" thing is that people are acting like Ness can combo her so easily. I can't see it, still.
2) I think it's just you. Nayru's Love works wonders vs. Ness. Not only do you have the typical effect that hinders everyone else from grabbing her, Ness's PK Fire pillar can be reflected, which will prevent Ness from following up with a lot of attacks, especially a b-throw. Dsmash punishes anyone who is close by, and it's designed to keep away anyone else. Zelda's moves don't have ridiculously long durations. That's asinine. What move are you talking about leaves her as open as, say, Ike's Fsmash?

You forgot PKT2, which I thought was ******** until I actually played a Ness main that killed me with it nearly every stock. Which by the way can kill Zelda at like 50-60% If hit at the right time. Also Bair's are NOT hard to hit with. Heck I've killed with Bairs on accident. Bthrow does kill at 120% though I'm not sure stage placement doesn't count as Levitas claims. Usually I have to be near the edge of the stage for it to kill at 120%, but that might be because I abuse Dthrow like no other.

PKT2 kills at a low %. So what? Does this make a distinct advantage vs. Zelda?

He never said bair was hard to hit with. He did say, however, that it's ridiculous to assume that Ness kills Zelda before 120% all the time because you're not going to get those killing moves to land that often. The only way that would be true is if, for example, you got Zelda to 100% and then did nothing but wait for an opportunity to bair her at a distance that would kill her for certain... and that never happens in a match. You might not kill someone until they're near 200% for all you know. Placing a cap on someone's % to determine how long they have to live doesn't do much except for point out a critical % for an opponent.

Ouch, they're killer. But I've got to say, not quite as often as Ness's aerials.

His point was that just because Ness has deadly aerials doesn't mean that Zelda does not... well actually, the original point was,

"Ever been killed off the side by a Ness Dair? It has good knockback laterally if it doesn't send you straight down, and the Nair and Bair kill well too."

and that's not saying much because 4 out of 5 of Zelda's aerials are typically used as killing moves, so why should Ness get any form of advantage here?

I'm on the total opposite fence. I don't think it's a landslide in Ness's favor. I think it's pretty even too, but I think Ness has a bit more going for him than Zelda does. The whole reason I am here is because I feel as though Zelda users are just spouting Zelda's strengths that every character has to deal with. "Downsmash/Nayru's/Dtilt ***** Ness" well awesome, they tend to do well against every other character in the game as well.

Here we go again. "Zelda users are just spouting Zelda's strengths that every character has to deal with" is why you're here? What if I were to say the same exact thing as you... but replace Zelda with Ness? Not to mention, it's obvious that Zelda users are the Away team here, so of course we have to mention her strengths because Ness users here are totally underrating/ignoring/forgetting Zelda's strengths. Why should we have to repeat Ness's strengths? We mention Zelda's strengths (which work on most everyone else) because... well... people here are disregarding her as a whole and are acting like it's a landslide.

The reason we mention Dsmash/Nayru's/Dtilt is because people here are mentioning b-throw/bair/PKT2. Returning fire with fire if you will.

Her aerials do kill at ridiculously low percents, it's true. But Uair is obscenely easy to see coming, and dodge, and Fair/Bair are obscenely hard to hit with. Her easier KO moves (AKA smashes) actually tend to kill at around the same percents as Ness's KO moves, especially when you consider they'll be decayed cause they're conveniently her best damage builders/defensive weapons as well.

Anyways, like I said I'm not here to argue a landslide case. You said you're here cause Ness users are only spouting Ness's basic strengths? Well I'm doing the same for Zelda users.

What, Ness's dair isn't easy to see or something? Ness has to contend with uair to get a good dair off. Her moves don't decay that badly against Ness, considering the fact that outside of her throws, her jab, dtilt, nair, and her B moves, everything else kills. You don't rack up damage with up-tilt or side-tilt; you kill with those. You don't use Dsmash solely to rack up damage; you use it to punish anyone who is too close to Zelda.

Once again, everyone seems to complain about the way Zelda users are arguing for her in this thread... yet everyone who complains about that minimizes what Zelda can do in response to Ness... which is fine, because you need to pick a side and be sure to acknowledge the other.

 

[Ztarfish]

That means trying to predict spot-dodges/rolls and timing your smashes so the big hit still connects.

Right, but everyone has to anticipate spotdodges, and rolls. Zelda punishes them a lot easier, but like I said, once you learn that holding your shield and not spotdodging or rolling, it doesn't even matter how easily Ness DI's out of them.

He can float out of Fsmash range? You mean, he can do something special to get out of range of Fsmash? What is that? Midair jump? I'm not seeing this.

Well I was assuming Yuna was talking about a Fair approach. In which yes he most definitely can DI away from Fsmash range without using his second jump, I've done it before.

To say Zelda doesn't have the speed to go after Ness is to say that Ness is so much faster than her, which is untrue. When does Zelda have to chase after Ness at a high speed? If she's trying to close distance, she can just warp. If Ness is too close for her to warp safely... then she definitely doesn't need to worry about running after Ness.

No no no, that is not what i'm saying. I was still focusing on the Fair approach. Something was said about it being pretty unsafe regardless of shieldgrabbing cause of Jabs or Tilts etc. Zelda does not have the speed to run up and attack unexpectedly. I was saying that a fair approach IS relatively safe for the Ness. And who is gonna FW that short of a distance? You're obviously thinking of something different.

1) If most Ness players were aware of this, they wouldn't be making up nonsense like "Ness's PSI magnet shuts down Zelda's Din's Fire approach." PSI magnet makes a bigger impact by keeping the Zelda player wary of throwing out Din's, and that's about it. Again, you might catch Zelda once or twice in a match with PSI magnet, but other than that, most will attempt to just dodge it... and then you have to realize that a lot of people dodge when the fire is right on their body, opening Zelda up to detonating before or after the airdodge due to its large hitbox. Zelda can also detonate right before it's in range of Ness, and more often than not, the Ness player will attempt a dodge or PSI magnet. That's what Yuna means by faking out.

2) True.

3) Din's Fire is underrated in my opinion, but that's not the focus of the argument here.

Once or twice with Psi Magnet, and the rest spotdodging/airdodging cause its not that hard sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Also, most everyone is aware how to effectively dodge Din's Fire. Look at her hands. Even then it's not that hard. I don't look at her hands and I've never been "Faked out" by Din's.

I don't think Din's is good at racking up damage. What i think it's good at is messing up people's flows and should be used as such. Meaning that you should be more careful throwing out Din's not because of Psi Magnet, but because most of the time Din's will not hit.

1) The point about the whole "Top Tier" thing is that people are acting like Ness can combo her so easily. I can't see it, still.
2) I think it's just you. Nayru's Love works wonders vs. Ness. Not only do you have the typical effect that hinders everyone else from grabbing her, Ness's PK Fire pillar can be reflected, which will prevent Ness from following up with a lot of attacks, especially a b-throw. Dsmash punishes anyone who is close by, and it's designed to keep away anyone else. Zelda's moves don't have ridiculously long durations. That's asinine. What move are you talking about leaves her as open as, say, Ike's Fsmash?

1) I don't say that Ness can combo Zelda in particular exceptionally well, I'm saying that Zelda doesn't have quite the tools as maybe some other characters in the cast to screw with Ness's aerial ability.
2) Nayru's Love was one of the moves I was talking about. It lasts such a long time that if it whiffs, a grab is imminent. Nayru's Love is good though. I don't deny this, not necessarily cause of it's reflective properties, cause Ness can get around that, but because of it's attacking qualities. Ness can follow up a reflected detonated Pk fire with a Dair or Bair pretty easily, since Zelda's too preoccupied with Nayru's Loving, but if Ness gets caught in the crystals, well that screws with that.

And we're not discussing Ike vs Ness. We're discussing Zelda vs. Ness. And no Zelda's Fsmash is not as long as Ike's but it's still a HAI GRAB ME moment.

PKT2 kills at a low %. So what? Does this make a distinct advantage vs. Zelda?

He never said bair was hard to hit with. He did say, however, that it's ridiculous to assume that Ness kills Zelda before 120% all the time because you're not going to get those killing moves to land that often. The only way that would be true is if, for example, you got Zelda to 100% and then did nothing but wait for an opportunity to bair her at a distance that would kill her for certain... and that never happens in a match. You might not kill someone until they're near 200% for all you know. Placing a cap on someone's % to determine how long they have to live doesn't do much except for point out a critical % for an opponent.

You're not reading all the way. Yuna had said that he's assuming Zelda hits with her most deadly of moves killing at 70-90. Well unfortunately that assumption bites him in the *** cause Ness's most deadly of moves kills earlier. Read please.

Well I dunno, I find it slightly ridiculous to assume that Zelda will kill Ness around 120% all the time as well. That's saying that you're hitting consistently with her sweetspotted aerials. Zelda users tend to use smashes to rack up damage. These smashes unfortunately get decayed and I've survived an upsmash at 140% even. And what i've gotten out of typing all this is that we're all assuming too much.

His point was that just because Ness has deadly aerials doesn't mean that Zelda does not... well actually, the original point was,

"Ever been killed off the side by a Ness Dair? It has good knockback laterally if it doesn't send you straight down, and the Nair and Bair kill well too."

and that's not saying much because 4 out of 5 of Zelda's aerials are typically used as killing moves, so why should Ness get any form of advantage here?

4 out of 5 of Ness's aerials are killing moves, and are considerably easier to pull off. Granted they kill at higher percentages, but I think the fact that they are easier to pull off, and much more applicable in more situations make Ness the better aerialist.

Here we go again. "Zelda users are just spouting Zelda's strengths that every character has to deal with" is why you're here? What if I were to say the same exact thing as you... but replace Zelda with Ness? Not to mention, it's obvious that Zelda users are the Away team here, so of course we have to mention her strengths because Ness users here are totally underrating/ignoring/forgetting Zelda's strengths. Why should we have to repeat Ness's strengths? We mention Zelda's strengths (which work on most everyone else) because... well... people here are disregarding her as a whole and are acting like it's a landslide.

The reason we mention Dsmash/Nayru's/Dtilt is because people here are mentioning b-throw/bair/PKT2. Returning fire with fire if you will.

OMFG READ! Yuna DID say exactly the same thing replacing Zelda with Ness! AAAAAAH! You mention Zelda's basic strength, but nothing else. Fsmash is good, Dsmash *****, Nayru's Love is an awesome tool. You're all complaining about how the Ness's are making vague claims and I'm throwing it back in your face.

You're returning my return fire. Please read.

Anyways this constant Copypasteing will lead nowhere except hostility. Forgive me if that's not what I'm about. Not coming back here, peace.

 

[Yuna]

Wait what? Exactly how much control do you have over that aspect? I mean if you're aiming for the end of the smashes you're either hoping that he's gonna just run into it/let go of his shield, either of which is a mistake anyone playing a Zelda shouldn't ever do.

Or after a spotdodge or a roll or when they're in the air, lagging from an attack. You know, some of us don't just throw Fsmash and Usmash out randomly.

None of which Zelda can do really effectively, Ness can float out of Fsmash range, and it's not like Zelda has the speed to go running after Ness.

It's not like Ness can camp so well Zelda has to run after him. Wow, he's got PK Fire and PK Thunder. Umm... yah.

1) I'm pretty sure most Ness's are aware that absorbing is pretty situational and that it's 210983019823 times easier to just spotdodge/airdodge it. And I'm pretty sure everyone knows that Din's Fire has a ridiculous hitbox at full length, so I don't really understand why anyone would be fooled by a fakeout. I dunno, maybe I've just gotten too used to Din's.
2) Oh I dunno, if you pop em up and follow up with another Din's, that sounds like a perfect oppurtunity in which to Psi Magnet, to me considering it slows down momentum, etc etc.
3) Din's Fire isn't all that useful to begin with. If anyone is basing this matchup on Din's Fire at all that's just silly.

1) Fake-out = Releasing it not when people expect us to release it, like too soon or too early. Or releasing it while we're close to the opponent, forcing an airdodge and then punishing with an aerial.
2) Not if he died from it. And why can Ness magically PSI magnet now when he couldn't earlier?
3) Exactly. It's just one aspect of Zelda's game. People speak as if Ness being able to absorb it destroys Zelda's game. Well, I guess Ness is a Space Animal and Lucario counter, too, then!

1) Dash attack and uptilt have little enough lag that you are able to follow up, and even Usmash at decent percentages can knock Zelda up so high that it's not hard to follow up with. To turn your argument around on you, If Ness is so horribly bad at getting opponents in the air when he wants to where he really shines, why is he not Garbage Tier?
2) Ness can kill Zelda at nearly the same percents Zelda can kill Ness. Hello Ness's backthrow. And is it just me or do Zelda's moves scream HAI GRAB ME cause of their ridiculously long duration?

1) I'm sorry, I said he's horrible or even bad at doing this when? I said "not that good". People are saying things like he can juggle Zelda across the stage, to death, etc. Also, DA and U-tilt into a juggle? How is this impressive?! It's just one move into an aerial juggle of, what, 2-3 hits, tops? ZOMG! 3-4 hit combo! Noes! Poor Zelda!
2) "Nearly"? No she can't. Good Zeldas won't spam the moves which will allow people to grab her. DeDeDe is much slower than Zelda, yet are you seeing him getting grabbed all the time? Also, Ness' backthrow kills at roughly 120%-ish, apparently. Zelda's Uair kills at roughly 80% (after the hit). Her Fair and Bair kills at around 90%-ish and her Usmash can kill around there, too.

Yeah... roughly the same percent, yeah... I love it how the Ness fanboys are distorting facts.

You forgot PKT2, which I thought was ******** until I actually played a Ness main that killed me with it nearly every stock. Which by the way can kill Zelda at like 50-60% If hit at the right time. Also Bair's are NOT hard to hit with. Heck I've killed with Bairs on accident. Bthrow does kill at 120% though I'm not sure stage placement doesn't count as Levitas claims. Usually I have to be near the edge of the stage for it to kill at 120%, but that might be because I abuse Dthrow like no other.

What kind of garbage people would get hit by PKT2 every single stock (also, Fsmash)? Who said Bairs are hard to hit with?! I just said "Why are we assuming Ness will always hit Zelda with his strongest KO moves at every stock, yet not assuming the same for Zelda"? Zelda's Fair and Bair isn't that hard to hit with if the Zelda is good and knows the spacing, yet people assume she won't hit with it often.

Ouch, they're killer. But I've got to say, not quite as often as Ness's aerials.

Wait, wait? They're stronger than Ness' aerials. They inflict more damage and more knockback. How the hell could they not be as "killer" as Ness'?! Every single one of her aerials, except Nair, kills (only Dair is just a Meteor Smash).

I'm on the total opposite fence. I don't think it's a landslide in Ness's favor. I think it's pretty even too, but I think Ness has a bit more going for him than Zelda does. The whole reason I am here is because I feel as though Zelda users are just spouting Zelda's strengths that every character has to deal with. "Downsmash/Nayru's/Dtilt ***** Ness" well awesome, they tend to do well against every other character in the game as well.

No, that's the Ness' fanboys' doing. I'm refuting them and adding a few things.

Zelda has many tools, she's among the Top 10 characters in the game (in my and many others' opinions ATM). Her "generic tools which work on everyone" are thus better than Ness' "generic tools which work on everyone" (since Ness isn't among the Top 10). It's more valid to say "Zelda has good KO:ing moves" than "Ness can combo people" since Ness can combo everyone else and Zelda can KO everyone else well but Zelda's strengths put together are better than Ness'.

Why do they work so well/so badly against each other in this specific matchup? Each side must motivate this. So far, no one has pointed out anything that makes it a bad matchup for Zelda or even a hard one or even one where she doesn't have the advantage except "Well, there's PSI magnet". Why, he must counter Fox, Falco, Wolf, Lucario and Pit then.

Meanwhile, Zelda just has better tools than Ness. She is one mean edgeguarder and Ness' recovery is predictable. This is bad. So what if Ness' recovery is bad generally speaking? At least against other people, he stands a pretty good chance of at least not outright dying from an edgeguard at 60%.

Also, Zelda's strengths do work well against Ness because they're just that good. Ness' strengths do not work better against Zelda than against other characters and Ness' tools aren't as good as Zelda's. What does this mean?

Zelda's tools = Better than Ness'
Zelda tools = Work against Ness
Ness' tools = Work against Zelda
Zelda's tools = 10
Ness' tools = 8

10 vs. 8, meaning that, yes, when we say "Zelda has this and this and this on Ness", even if it's generic, it's better than Ness' generic strengths. Also, Ness is not a heavy-weight and is thus not magically absolved from dying at ridiculously low %s against Zelda, Ness cannot super-camp, screwing Zelda over and making her life harder, thus, she can play largely the same against him as everyone else (and she does it so well), Zelda cannot be comboed by Ness better than the average character, meanwhile, Zelda can edgeguard him better than the average character and he gets easier edgeguarded than the average character. Zelda outranges Ness, but Ness outprioritizes her in the air... then again, she still outranges him for the most part. So if he whiffs, she can just throw out a quick Fair or Bair and it'll hit because he's still lagging.

It's not like we're gonna have both characters jump at each other at close range and throw out aerials so Ness can constantly outprioritize Zelda here.

Her aerials do kill at ridiculously low percents, it's true. But Uair is obscenely easy to see coming, and dodge, and Fair/Bair are obscenely hard to hit with. Her easier KO moves (AKA smashes) actually tend to kill at around the same percents as Ness's KO moves, especially when you consider they'll be decayed cause they're conveniently her best damage builders/defensive weapons as well.

You don't randomly Uair, you mixup and try to trick them into airdodging and then punishing the airdodge.

Fair and Bair are obscenely hard to sweetspot? Funny how I consistently sweetspot with them, once doing 5 consecutive sweetspots in a tournament match (needless to say, I won that set). And I do it often. If it's humanly possible, it can be learned.

Because of damage decay, good Zeldas will use only one move to build up damage and the other for KO:ing since Fair and Bair are largely the same, only with Bair being faster but with less range. This will allow for damage building and KO:ing. Also, Zelda has many KO moves, many of which are ridicilously low KO%-moves while others KO around the same time as Ness does. But that doesn't change the fact that she can KO Ness way before he can KO her.

Anyways, like I said I'm not here to argue a landslide case. You said you're here cause Ness users are only spouting Ness's basic strengths? Well I'm doing the same for Zelda users.

Only I'm doing more than that. I can't be held responsible for what other people do. Now stop saying "Well, others do it to!" and use real arguments.

 

[Brinzy]

Right, but everyone has to anticipate spotdodges, and rolls. Zelda punishes them a lot easier, but like I said, once you learn that holding your shield and not spotdodging or rolling, it doesn't even matter how easily Ness DI's out of them.

I'm assuming you're trying to say that you can just shield... in which case, her side smash pushes back a bit, giving her a bit of space to prevent punishment sometimes.

Well I was assuming Yuna was talking about a Fair approach. In which yes he most definitely can DI away from Fsmash range without using his second jump, I've done it before.

Alright.

No no no, that is not what i'm saying. I was still focusing on the Fair approach. Something was said about it being pretty unsafe regardless of shieldgrabbing cause of Jabs or Tilts etc. Zelda does not have the speed to run up and attack unexpectedly. I was saying that a fair approach IS relatively safe for the Ness. And who is gonna FW that short of a distance? You're obviously thinking of something different.

Apparently I was thinking of something differently.



Once or twice with Psi Magnet, and the rest spotdodging/airdodging cause its not that hard sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Also, most everyone is aware how to effectively dodge Din's Fire. Look at her hands. Even then it's not that hard. I don't look at her hands and I've never been "Faked out" by Din's.

I don't think Din's is good at racking up damage. What i think it's good at is messing up people's flows and should be used as such. Meaning that you should be more careful throwing out Din's not because of Psi Magnet, but because most of the time Din's will not hit.


Except most of the time, people don't look at her hands. You even say that you don't look at her hands. If you've never been faked out by Din's, then you probably haven't played anyone who has employed any extra strategy with it. You throw it past the person and because, more often than not, they're looking at the fire, you detonate when it's behind them. Mix it up and detonate it early. Most people just dodge when they see it right on them, and this is how players get screwed up by it.

I don't think it's good at racking up damage either, hence why I mainly use it for pressuring above all else. Above all, you shouldn't use Din's when you can be punished, not because it "will not hit." If people can land Falcon/Warlock Punches, Ganon's up-tilt, Ness's PK Flash, and other similar moves, then I don't see why Din's Fire won't land.

1) I don't say that Ness can combo Zelda in particular exceptionally well, I'm saying that Zelda doesn't have quite the tools as maybe some other characters in the cast to screw with Ness's aerial ability.
2) Nayru's Love was one of the moves I was talking about. It lasts such a long time that if it whiffs, a grab is imminent. Nayru's Love is good though. I don't deny this, not necessarily cause of it's reflective properties, cause Ness can get around that, but because of it's attacking qualities. Ness can follow up a reflected detonated Pk fire with a Dair or Bair pretty easily, since Zelda's too preoccupied with Nayru's Loving, but if Ness gets caught in the crystals, well that screws with that.

1) I thought the issue you had was with Ness getting opponents in the air, not his actual air game. Regardless, even if you don't say it in particular, others in this thread believe that. I should've/could've made it be a general statement, but I guess laziness got the best of me.

2)Most people, as you should know, use Nayru's Love when someone is extremely close to Zelda. There's no whiffing there unless you get a lucky roll out of it. Also, as for following up with an aerial, even though I've pulled it off a few times, generally speaking it won't happen too often if Zelda is quick about getting Nayru's off; he'll either be too far to make it before she can shield, or he'll be doing something like a PK Jump, which gets him punished.

And we're not discussing Ike vs Ness. We're discussing Zelda vs. Ness. And no Zelda's Fsmash is not as long as Ike's but it's still a HAI GRAB ME moment.

... Obviously we're not discussing Ike vs. Ness; my point was that Zelda has very few of those type of durations, none of which are particularly "ridiculously long." The longest moves I can think of are Nayru's Love and Usmash. Nobody randomly throws out Usmash, and we've gone over Nayru's, so I don't see where you get so many "HAI GRAB ME" moments from.



You're not reading all the way. Yuna had said that he's assuming Zelda hits with her most deadly of moves killing at 70-90. Well unfortunately that assumption bites him in the *** cause Ness's most deadly of moves kills earlier. Read please.

What, PK Flash and PKT2? Which will hit more: Zelda's sweetspotted aerials or PKT2? I read just what I said, and Yuna made that statement because of a statement made earlier. I think I'm reading all the way, and I can safely say that only those two moves will kill before Zelda's, and one has to hit at the very beginning while the other needs to be fully charged. The next killer move is either bair or b-throw (not counting dair), and those don't typically kill at 70-90%.

Well I dunno, I find it slightly ridiculous to assume that Zelda will kill Ness around 120% all the time as well. That's saying that you're hitting consistently with her sweetspotted aerials. Zelda users tend to use smashes to rack up damage. These smashes unfortunately get decayed and I've survived an upsmash at 140% even. And what i've gotten out of typing all this is that we're all assuming too much.

Of course you find that ridiculous, as nobody seriously stood by that at all. Again, the earliest statement was that Ness will be killing Zelda at 120% tops, all the time. That thing you find ridiculous is such because the original statement was ridiculous. That's all there is to it.



4 out of 5 of Ness's aerials are killing moves, and are considerably easier to pull off. Granted they kill at higher percentages, but I think the fact that they are easier to pull off, and much more applicable in more situations make Ness the better aerialist.

Alright, going off of your statement, Ness is better in the air... so does this mean that Ness has the clear advantage here? Hey, Lucas is better on the ground than Ness, so why doesn't he have the advantage on Ness?

OMFG READ! Yuna DID say exactly the same thing replacing Zelda with Ness! AAAAAAH! You mention Zelda's basic strength, but nothing else. Fsmash is good, Dsmash *****, Nayru's Love is an awesome tool. You're all complaining about how the Ness's are making vague claims and I'm throwing it back in your face.

You're returning my return fire. Please read.

I DID mention more. Read earlier in the thread. Hell, go to the Zelda board and find the topics about Ness and Lucas vs. Zelda and read what I said there. I have mentioned these points time and time again, and I'm not going to repeat myself for every single person who says they don't see anything. Call it a fault of my own, but it gets tiring seeing people go, "You're not saying anything about Zelda besides basic strengths." Yuna did say that, and that I did not deny, ever. I'm tired of going back and forward with what others aren't saying. I have discussed specific areas where Zelda does better (how she can edgeguard him better, how she has better range on the ground, etc).

Anyways this constant Copypasteing will lead nowhere except hostility. Forgive me if that's not what I'm about. Not coming back here, peace.

Why don't we all just type out messages and say we're not coming back? Honestly.

I think I'm gonna go and quote myself so I don't have to repeat my argument over and over again, since being accused of not saying much is becoming tiring.

In this thread alone, I've said this and I was quoted here. It might not be something most would agree with, but I have, indeed, talked about what Zelda can do to Ness, not just her strengths alone. I've said even more on the Zelda board, but I don't want to bring that stuff here.


Also, you said

Zelda isn't that great against Ness, I play both, I also play a lot of Zelda's. Jesus Christ. I don't even freakin heal that much and it's still not that hard.

The fact that Ness easily DI's out of Usmash and Fsmash kills 2 possible kill moves, as well as an incredible damage builder, Din's fire is compromised unless you catch the Ness way off guard, and if the Ness is good (read: not me) they won't be off guard too often. In addition he'll dance circles in the air around you, and if you dare ever use Farore's Wind within jumping distance of the Ness they'll uair, bair, dair, whatever air to kill your ***.

Basically Ness has a lot going for him, whereas Zelda has very little.

... which pretty much undermines any of that "I'm here because Zelda users are being ridiculous" crap you said earlier, considering you said this after only one legit argument about Ness vs. Zelda... from someone who was arguing for Ness. (It also makes me wonder about how you said you don't believe it's a landslide, yet you posted the above, too...) You're better than those who haven't formed any sort of argument, at least.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ugggg Raph took care of most important points there, but I'd like to say people:

QUIT SAYING ZELDA HAS REALLY SLOW ATTACKS.

True, her attacks can take some time to finish BUT, they aren't slow... they just have a long duration. If you want that to make sense:

a slow attack would be one with lots of startup and/or cooldown lag thus making it easily punishable.

Zelda's attacks don't really have either. Her attacks come out relatively quick and have VERY little cooldown lag (that's more important than startup lag if you ask me.) But, they still have a long duration because they have a LARGE amount of actuve frames. This means that the actual hitboxes of her attacks stay out for a while. Even THIS isn't that punishable though becasue the hitboxes have such a respectable amount of range and priority. plus, they are multihit and have some nice shieldstun/pushback. This all means that her attacks are NOT very punishable unless he whifs them COMPLETELY. Fsamsh, Usamsh and Nayru's are all active so long that you can't spotdodge them becuase the attack won't be over by the time you come out of the spotdodge. AND they all have great range, so you can't even roll behind her unless you time it PERFECTLY because she WILL still hit you (even Fsmash) and it'll be WAY too late to DI out of the last hit.

Nayru's love also reflects up until the bitter end of the attack, so, if Zelda predicts well enough, she can reflect your attack and retaliate almost IMMEDIATELY. This doesn't happen often, but since we appear to be giving Ness seer like omniscence, I figured we should give it to zelda too.

Honestly, the insane durration of the active frames of her attacks is a GOOD thing... not a bad thing.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Yuna didn't even say hi.

 

[Nestec]

About their aerial killing moves, IIRC, Zelda's kill at lower percentages. But Ness' are easier to land. In order for Zelda's Fair and Bair to kill, they must be sweetspotted. Uair is predictable. Was Nair the other one? I agree this is a good move.

Ness' Nair, Bair, and Uair do not need to be sweetspotted and thus are easier to land.

So my conclusion? Zelda's aerials can be more punishing, but Ness' aerials will land more easily. Thus, I think they are even in the aerial department.

Now, if someone wants to include aerial priority, I believe Ness would have the slight upperhand. (Idk how good the priority of Ness' Uair is though...)

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

About their aerial killing moves, IIRC, Zelda's kill at lower percentages. But Ness' are easier to land. In order for Zelda's Fair and Bair to kill, they must be sweetspotted. Uair is predictable. Was Nair the other one? I agree this is a good move.

Ness' Nair, Bair, and Uair do not need to be sweetspotted and thus are easier to land.

So my conclusion? Zelda's aerials can be more punishing, but Ness' aerials will land more easily. Thus, I think they are even in the aerial department.

Now, if someone wants to include aerial priority, I believe Ness would have the slight upperhand. (Idk how good the priority of Ness' Uair is though...)

If you are talking about using those aerials as killing moves, then his Bair and Nair has to be sweetspotted to get a kill at lower percentages. Ness' Bair, and Nair are easier to sweetspot, than Zelda's aerial sweetspot killing moves (Fair/Bair) IMO. Her Uair is just plain predictable. Not to say it never will hit, it just is not likely with good anticipation.

i kinda wonder why people are still arguing about this...

 

[Nestec]

Oh, then my mistake there. ;P
But it still means that Ness' aerial kills are easier to land, right?

It also amazes me that this debate still goes on...It must be really be a neutral, lol. Either that or both sides have some persistent (or stubborn) debaters.

 

[Brinzy]

I don't see why everyone complains that people are still debating it. It's not like you get redirected to this thread and you're forced to read everything.

 

[Yuna]

About their aerial killing moves, IIRC, Zelda's kill at lower percentages. But Ness' are easier to land. In order for Zelda's Fair and Bair to kill, they must be sweetspotted. Uair is predictable. Was Nair the other one? I agree this is a good move.

Ness' Nair, Bair, and Uair do not need to be sweetspotted and thus are easier to land.

So my conclusion? Zelda's aerials can be more punishing, but Ness' aerials will land more easily. Thus, I think they are even in the aerial department.

Now, if someone wants to include aerial priority, I believe Ness would have the slight upperhand. (Idk how good the priority of Ness' Uair is though...)

Why do people assume Zelda will almost never hit with her sweetspotted attacks, as opposed to Ness? Yes, it requires spacing, yes it requires timing.

Would it interest you to know I consistently land sweetspotted Fairs and Bairs all the time? It's pronounced "training".

Nair is one of her worst killing moves.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I don't see why everyone complains that people are still debating it. It's not like you get redirected to this thread and you're forced to read everything.

I'm not really complaining about it. It just caught me by surprise. i want to see what the turnout of this will be. That's the only reason i come back lol.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Why do people assume Zelda will almost never hit with her sweetspotted attacks, as opposed to Ness? Yes, it requires spacing, yes it requires timing.

Would it interest you to know I consistently land sweetspotted Fairs and Bairs all the time? It's pronounced "training".

Nair is one of her worst killing moves.

It's not an unreasonable assumption. Zelda's sweetspotted aerials require absolutely precise timing AND positioning. They are pretty much always telegraphed in advance. Ness, on the other hand, only requires a bit of timing. I would expect a Ness to land much more sweetspotted bairs then a Zelda. You're just arguing this point because you've got nothing else to do.

 

[Yuna]

It's not an unreasonable assumption. Zelda's sweetspotted aerials require absolutely precise timing AND positioning. They are pretty much always telegraphed in advance. Ness, on the other hand, only requires a bit of timing. I would expect a Ness to land much more sweetspotted bairs then a Zelda. You're just arguing this point because you've got nothing else to do.

Zelda's Fair and Bair are 4 frames and 3 frames (or 5 frames and 4 frames) respectively. Telegraphed in advance my tuchas.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Just because it has a short startup time does not mean it is hard to predict. It's just like Falcon's knee. If they see Zelda floating in the air or about to approach an airborne opponent, they are going to reasonably assume that she is doing a fair or bair and react accordingly.

It's a ridiculously hard move to land. Yes, it gives a great payoff, but don't act like it's as easy as shake-and-bake.

 

[Yuna]

Just because it has a short startup time does not mean it is hard to predict. It's just like Falcon's knee. If they see Zelda floating in the air or about to approach an airborne opponent, they are going to reasonably assume that she is doing a fair or bair and react accordingly.

I'm sorry, what kind of Zeldas are you playing who keeps jumping towards you with Fairs and Bairs all the time where they jump, air control towards you and then aerial?

And how the hell is this less "telegraphed" than Ness jumping in the air? "Oh, he's in the air, he's probably going to Fair or Bair!".

Empty shorthops, immediate aerials from a shorthop, aerials out of shield as punishers, etc. Good players do not spam predictably and stop assuming the Zelda in this hypothetic match will do so while the Ness will not.

It's a ridiculously hard move to land. Yes, it gives a great payoff, but don't act like it's as easy as shake-and-bake.

Have I ever said it's easy? It's just not "ridiculously hard" if you main Zelda. I can do it and so can anyone who plays with Zelda regularly (who's good).

 

[Brinzy]

People assume that Zelda will never hit with her sweetspotted aerials because they don't play her enough to actually get the timing and precision down. I don't know why everyone assumes this just because Ness's are easier to land. Lightning kicks are not hard to pull off at all if you actually take the time to learn just how you need to pull them off. I don't even see why people are arguing which one is harder to do, since we're talking about highly skilled play here, and any Zelda who competes with her will have those kicks down to the point where they'll land at least one per stock. (One is usually all you need, anyway.)

 

[Yuna]

One per stock? Pft, try 5 in a row (Fairs and Bairs mixed up, two in a combo, a few moves inbetween, then another Fair or Bair, more moves, another one, more moves, another one, death). And it's not even that uncommon for me to do it like that.

Of course, I usually don't use it that frequently because of Stale Move Negation, this is just to illustrate a point; I frequently sweetspot the Fair and Bair.

 

[Cazcom]

I'd kinda like to get in on this conversation, but I feel like I'm entering really late.

I main ness. My training partner mains Zelda. He is also my doubles partner. So I feel like I have a really good understanding of how the match-up lays out.

Like I said, I'd love to get into this, but I'm not really sure what has been discussed, or even if this has degraded to fanboy-ism. Please let me know if it's still reasonable to join this conversation, and if so, what are the talking points.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I don't have a problem landing it whenever I know I can hit - after a PK thunder or some other stunning move. I'm talking about landing it on an opponent who knows what he's doing. A Ness is a small target, and it gets even smaller when he's hopping all over the **** place and airdodging because he knows that a Lightning Heel is the equivalent of death on a stick.

And you say it shouldn't be spammed? I would say, on average, DarkMusician does it 40 times per match. http://youtube.com/watch?v=4wqfe6ZrDjc&feature=PlayList&p=44C667F566F295A1&index=6

Post some vids of you destroying these pros with the lightning heel, Yuna. If they get hit over and over with those moves, they really don't sound that good. Also, do you live on the West Coast?

 

[Brinzy]

One per stock? Pft, try 5 in a row (Fairs and Bairs mixed up, two in a combo, a few moves inbetween, then another Fair or Bair, more moves, another one, more moves, another one, death). And it's not even that uncommon for me to do it like that.

Of course, I usually don't use it that frequently because of Stale Move Negation, this is just to illustrate a point; I frequently sweetspot the Fair and Bair.

Oh believe me, I know you can get a lot more per stock, but I was just saying that even the bottom of the pile of Zelda players can get sweetspotted fairs/bairs.

 

[Yuna]

I don't have a problem landing it whenever I know I can hit - after a PK thunder or some other stunning move. I'm talking about landing it on an opponent who knows what he's doing. A Ness is a small target, and it gets even smaller when he's hopping all over the **** place and airdodging because he knows that a Lightning Heel is the equivalent of death on a stick.

What makes you think the Ness will always know when and how to evade the sweetspot while the Zelda will be unable to know when to time and space it? Stop assuming this BS. It's not like you'll autohit the sweetspot every time. But it's far from being as hard to hit with as some people make it out to be.

With this logic, no one should ever be able to hit Ness with anything since Zelda's Fair has good range and it's fast (Bair has less range, but it's faster). If Ness players are able to predict and space themselves so well (plus he's tiny, too) that Zelda will almost never hit with her Fair, then very few people should ever be able to touch Ness because they have even less range than Zelda and their aerials are usually slower, too (since the Lightning Kick is pretty darn fast).

"Well, Ness players are psychic and will know to space themselves so well Zelda players will almost never be able to sweetspot the Lightning Kick!"

Fanboy logic at its finest.

And you say it shouldn't be spammed? I would say, on average, DarkMusician does it 40 times per match. http://youtube.com/watch?v=4wqfe6ZrDjc&feature=PlayList&p=44C667F566F295A1&index=6

On hit. It's perfectly fine to use the **** attack, but if you just hit with it, you don't want to degrade it into infinity by hitting with it twice more in rapid succession, thus ensuring that you won't be KO:ing with it for quite a while.

Post some vids of you destroying these pros with the lightning heel, Yuna. If they get hit over and over with those moves, they really don't sound that good. Also, do you live on the West Coast?

1) Lightning Kick.
2) I have no vids of myself in Brawl. We Swedes don't care enough about Brawl to film ourselves (well, some probably do).
3) Stockholm, Sweden. I know that Americans generally aren't very good at world geography but it you should at least be able to recognize that "Stockholm, Sweden" is not located in the U.S.

 

[Cazcom]

I'm sensing a lot of hostility...

*backs slowly away*

Unless anyone wants to actually discuss this, I'll be over in the corner.

 

[Yuna]

Shouldn't Marth be a cakewalk matchup? I mean, he relies on Tippers. And you can see those a mile away since, you know, he needs to space them well and his most deadly attacks are all grounded, thus he can't use them if you force him into the air, thus you'll see them a mile away (Marth's in the air? Tipper!). Now if you can see those a mile away, you can just space yourself and use your PK Physche to never leave openings where Marths could Tipper Fsmash you! I mean, Ness is so tiny, after all.

Ness for Top Tier!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

AS a zelda main I need to say, Lighting kicks are harder to land on ness than most other characters.... that d*** fair of his... But, once one DOES land... normally it's death.

 

[Nestec]

Ok, neither Swastika nor I ever said Zelda's bair/fair will never land. It doesn't matter how easy a pro Zelda can land it. In this specific match-up, Ness' sweetspotted bair will land more often than Zelda's sweetspotted bair/fair. The way I see it, that's just the bottom line.

And it's ridiculous to say that "if Zelda can't easily hit Ness with Fair, then no one can". Fair may be quick and long-reaching, but its sweetspot hitbox is small and very brief. And will likely not hit Ness every time. That is what separates Zelda's Fair vs. Ness from Others' Fair vs. Ness. And to make things worse for Zelda, its priority is lacking compared to Ness' Bair.

 

[Brinzy]

Ok, so let's say, for the sake of killing a tired point that has already been agreed upon, that Ness's bair is easy to sweetspot than Zelda's.

Tell me, what else is carrying Ness into the advantage area?

 

[Nestec]

Hmm, well, how about damage-racking? (I'm not saying Ness is better in this department, I'm just bringing it up. ^__^ )

Who would you guys say wins in this category?