Ness vs Zelda. Advantage or disadvantage

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm willing to compromise, but I fail to understand what Zelda can do against Ness if Ness keeps his distance. I mean I am willing to believe that the matchup is neutral, but I don't see it yet.

Maybe I shouldn't push this any more than what it is though. Like Masky said, there are worse matchups than this.

what can ness do agains Zelda from the same distance though?

 

[Gaussis]

Well for starters, Ness has PKF. It may seem useless to Zelda, but b-sticking and firebound allows Ness to fake an approach. He can also use PKF when he is running, though the previous two are more effective. Now I'm not entirely sure about this but I've read that Nayru's Love doesn't cover her completely, so that can be used to Ness's advantage as well. His second option is the dash attack at max range, though I don't think it would work too often.

I don't think this is worth arguing anymore though since it is arguably neutral. But I would like to see the reasoning behind the neutrality.

 

[thesage]

Everybody in this thread is stupid. This is why nobody good posts in the matchups discussion chart thread. It's ******** and being updated by somebody who isn't really known at all...


Btw, pk fire and din's fire are not moves that should EVER be relied on for either character.

Zelda has no approach (don't say din's fire approach that's ******** and I'm going to hit you) on Ness and she can't spam him. Running grab is her best option.

The only thing that's changed about this matchup from melee is that Ness lost his combos on her. Everything else is bad for her.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Everybody in this thread is stupid. This is why nobody good posts in the matchups discussion chart thread. It's ******** and being updated by somebody who isn't really known at all...


Btw, pk fire and din's fire are not moves that should EVER be relied on for either character.

Zelda has no approach (don't say din's fire approach that's ******** and I'm going to hit you) on Ness and she can't spam him. Running grab is her best option.

The only thing that's changed about this matchup from melee is that Ness lost his combos on her. Everything else is bad for her.

ignorance at its finest... not stupidity... ignorance.

Like... seriously... 0% of this is true... wow

 

[Ref]

Everybody in this thread is stupid. This is why nobody good posts in the matchups discussion chart thread. It's ******** and being updated by somebody who isn't really known at all...


Btw, pk fire and din's fire are not moves that should EVER be relied on for either character.

Zelda has no approach (don't say din's fire approach that's ******** and I'm going to hit you) on Ness and she can't spam him. Running grab is her best option.

The only thing that's changed about this matchup from melee is that Ness lost his combos on her. Everything else is bad for her.

Quoted for being one of the most intelligent things said so far. No I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Quoted for being one of the most intelligent things said so far.

prays this is another example of hard to detect internet sarcasm

 

[thesage]

ignorance at its finest... not stupidity... ignorance.

Like... seriously... 0% of this is true... wow

Cuz pk fire is an important move. It's only really useful against Bowser (DK and DDD have an easier time di'ing or something >_> and ic's to **** nana and reflect glacier.

Cuz din's fire can't be airdodged/ predicted by every single decent player in the game thanks to her wonderful animation (she swings her arm before she releases it. At best it can be used to edgeguard Ness when he's left with pkt2 to recover.

The matchup thread is an ongoing joke at tournaments right now.

What options does zelda approach with? Dair can't be sweetspotted on the ground. Fair and bair sheilded puts in her in a lot of lag. Up-smash can be DI'd out of making it near-useless. Her running grab is ok and is a grab so that's pretty much her best option. Plus it pops them up into the air where she does much better. If the opponent is bad they could fall for nair (no range and can be DI'd out of) or neutral b (startup lag). She's limited to 2 similar things in the air and a running grab on the ground.

Not being able to approach a character is pretty **** bad >_>; Ness at least has up-smash, running grab, and pkt. Zelda's reflector isn't fast enough and considering pkt is controlled by the player a good Ness shouldn't really worry about it lolz.

ALSO: Don't say that the players won't be able to di out of the up-smash 100 percent of the time but it'll be pretty close. I'm not even a decent player and I was able to smash DI out of fox's up air in melee. It's not hard at all.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Cuz pk fire is an important move. It's only really useful against Bowser (DK and DDD have an easier time di'ing or something >_> and ic's to **** nana and reflect glacier. usefull for more than that but, meh w/e

Cuz din's fire can't be airdodged/ predicted by every single decent player in the game thanks to her wonderful animation (she swings her arm before she releases it. At best it can be used to edgeguard Ness when he's left with pkt2 to recover.which is why you play tricks with it, set up for it or use it in times where they can't dodge it

The matchup thread is an ongoing joke at tournaments right now. indeed.. it's not awful,, but it needs help

What options does zelda approach with? Dair can't be sweetspotted on the ground. Fair and bair sheilded puts in her in a lot of lag. Up-smash can be DI'd out of making it near-useless. Her running grab is ok and is a grab so that's pretty much her best option. Plus it pops them up into the air where she does much better. If the opponent is bad they could fall for nair (no range and can be DI'd out of) or neutral b (startup lag). She's limited to 2 similar things in the air and a running grab on the ground. the match consists primarily of both trying to bait each other. Zelda isn't fantastic at approaching and Ness doesn't want to try to assault the fortress that is Zelda

Not being able to approach a character is pretty **** bad >_>; Ness at least has up-smash, running grab, and pkt. Zelda's reflector isn't fast enough and considering pkt is controlled by the player a good Ness shouldn't really worry about it lolz.

ALSO: Don't say that the players won't be able to di out of the up-smash 100 percent of the time but it'll be pretty close. I'm not even a decent player and I was able to smash DI out of fox's up air in melee. It's not hard at all.uh huh... well... let's try 50% as being closer

responses in blue

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness has an awesome air game and can shut down Din's Fire. His main problem is just getting past a Smash attack. The after he does that, he can pretty much juggle her to death because Zelda's air game almost doesn't exist. Ness > Zelda.

 

[thesage]

There are times when you can't dodge in brawl? O_o;

Zelda doesn't have that great of a defensive game lol. What can she do OoS that's so great? Why would Ness even want to approach Zelda?

Baiting matches don't work when you're slower and outranged by the other character >_>;

Also this is my last post in this thread cuz it's just too stupid to waste time over.

 

[Smashbros_7]

I'm friends with Raph... but that's because his head isn't up his arse. I mean, he thought the matchup was ness's to lose, and then he played me and I convinced him otherwise.. He was willing to compramise... as was I... because he convinced me Lucas still had an advatge and that Ness was even with zelda.

SCREW RALPH!

Just because ONE Ness main ssays the matchup is even, ALL Ness mains cannot comply with that.

Ness mains, get your ***** to the matchup topic. NAO.


EX: Mario vs Zelda
Dins fire working
Forward smash working
Upsmash working

Ness vs Zelda
Dins fire not working well
Forward smash not working well
upsmash not working.

Zelda tactics used against Mario don't work as well as againts Ness.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

There are times when you can't dodge in brawl? O_o;

Zelda doesn't have that great of a defensive game lol. What can she do OoS that's so great? Why would Ness even want to approach Zelda?

Baiting matches don't work when you're slower and outranged by the other character >_>;

Also this is my last post in this thread cuz it's just too stupid to waste time over.

- yeah... like... when you are preocupied with an attaclk... are landing, are in freefall, are recovering, just finished airdodging.

-um... her defensive game's better than you are giving it credit for.

- well. Zelda DOES outrange ness for the most part... and a some of her best attacks come out fast

SCREW RALPH!

Just because ONE Ness main ssays the matchup is even, ALL Ness mains cannot comply with that.

Ness mains, get your ***** to the matchup topic. NAO.


EX: Mario vs Zelda
Dins fire working
Forward smash working
Upsmash working

Ness vs Zelda
Dins fire not working well
Forward smash not working well
upsmash not working.

Zelda tactics used against Mario don't work as well as againts Ness.

^has head up arse^

 

[Earthbound360]

lol this topic is getting stupid, i mean seriously

 

[PK Starstorm]

what's te best way to DI out of her up and f smashes??

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

what's te best way to DI out of her up and f smashes??

How about this... you can wrench that secret from my cold, dead fingers.

*side note: ness doesn't have any special advantages really for DIing out of her Fsmash.

 

[Smashbros_7]

AND THE PSI MAGNET!
It's like taking Snakes grenades away from him.

And DI out of her Upsmash too.

 

[Brinzy]

Why is it whenever Ness and Zelda are being matched against everyone explodes in flames of anger? If we don't address the issue now, it's just gonna be an ongoing cycle of stupidity. I know my argument has flaws in it, but I don't see much progression from it besides one post on an earlier page.

Also, I'm a firm believer that PSI Magnet is getting way more credit than it deserves in this match. You're only gonna absorb Din's Fire when you're far away and when you do a great job at predicting Zelda otherwise.

Maybe all we need to do are Zelda and Ness battles to see how things pan out. I sincerely believe that a lot of what is being said just does not happen in a match.

Um...yeah...Ness doesn't have to go out to edge guard Zelda...in fact you can gimp her by just using PK Thunder...just spin it on the ledge...the tail should prevent her from grabbing the edge...and thus forcing her to land...Ness controls her recovery ok ^_^

Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind.

Reflect it if the head ever gets near you. If you're hit by the tail, chances are PK Thunder will be steered into her, and more often than not, that brings her closer to the stage. When she's in range of the ledge, she can use Farore's Wind to grab it. She can also use it when Ness is controlling PK Thunder. Zelda likes to sweetspot the ledge or even warp into defenseless opponents. If you just tail-whip to try and keep her from reflecting it, you're only inflicting a good 7% at the very, very most and she's still gonna make it back to the stage because chances are, she'll still be in range to warp.

I don't see too many cases where Ness will have Zelda below and away from the stage. Dair would kill her, but what would get her down there? Zelda will more often than not have the ability to recover with Farore's Wind, and most of Ness's gimps that aren't stage-spikes and dair give her the ability to land on the stage or the ledge.

Ness doesn't control her recovery. It seems like he would on paper, but again, rarely will you e controlling anything because Zelda can recover from anything that isn't dair, and PK Thunder is a minor annoyance for her, in my opinion.

Everybody in this thread is stupid. This is why nobody good posts in the matchups discussion chart thread. It's ******** and being updated by somebody who isn't really known at all...

Well then, Mr. Intelligent Somebody, shed some light on this subject, and back up your claim.

 

[Brinzy]

Sorry, double.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind.

Reflect it if the head ever gets near you. If you're hit by the tail, chances are PK Thunder will be steered into her, and more often than not, that brings her closer to the stage. When she's in range of the ledge, she can use Farore's Wind to grab it. She can also use it when Ness is controlling PK Thunder. Zelda likes to sweetspot the ledge or even warp into defenseless opponents. If you just tail-whip to try and keep her from reflecting it, you're only inflicting a good 7% at the very, very most and she's still gonna make it back to the stage because chances are, she'll still be in range to warp.

Don't forget. If Zelda wants... especially if she's high, She can always opt to trade Din's with Ness... he can't break out of PKT and absorb in time.

 

[Earthbound360]

PKT False edgeguard. End of Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

PKT False edgeguard. End of Zelda.

ummm... please explain?

 

[Earthbound360]

If I do, I'll have to argue against Zelda. I dont feel like it right now. Go search. It was described on the Melee Ness boards.

 

[Brinzy]

It's when you throw out PK Thunder to limit recovery options so the opponent places him or herself in striking range of PKT2. I can show you it later if we play.


However, I don't think this is even that big a threat to Zelda. In Melee, sure, but in Brawl, if Ness throws out PK Thunder, Zelda can just warp into him. Easy, easy punishment. There's also Din's Fire. I don't see why this is significantly threatening to Zelda. Zelda can also move in at least 16 directions. Throwing out PK Thunder is inviting her to sweetspot the ledge OR to warp into Ness. You can always just hit Zelda with PK Thunder, but... that would be defeating the whole purpose of throwing a false PK Thunder... not to mention Zelda will recover from eating PK Thunder thanks to how the game usually "knocks back" with PK Thunder.

 

[Earthbound360]

Meh, this is why I didn't wanna explain. It's in the mindgames. Prevent her from sweetspotting with the tail. Use PKT in the air to make warping into Ness difficult. Without the edge, recovering on the stage is her only chice since she cant DI after warping very much. Very easy to read, very easy to mindgame into, very easy on Zelda in particular compared to most other characters.

 

[Brinzy]

It's not like she still can't hit Ness with Din's, and she can always land where he's gonna fall... that'll get him hit or it'll set up for an easy u-tilt or Usmash, or even an uair if Ness is really high up.

I'm not discrediting what Ness can do to Zelda entirely, but I do think that Zelda is hardly as bad as people make her out to be against Ness.

 

[Earthbound360]

If she's off stage, how is she going to use Din's Fire at all? that makes her helpless, meaning no recovery. If the Ness is letting you land at all (or at least long enough to counter), he's not doing it right.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If she's off stage, how is she going to use Din's Fire at all? that makes her helpless, meaning no recovery. If the Ness is letting you land at all (or at least long enough to counter), he's not doing it right.

Din's makes you SIGNIFICANTLY floatier... it doesn't wreck her recovery at all.

 

[Earthbound360]

Meh, this was the argument I was trying to avoid -_-

Yeah, but its not like she can always use that to recover. It's all about finding the situation in which wind is her best/only option.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm assuming Zelda is at a height where she'll get the boost from Din's to land on the stage. If she isn't, then of course she can't use Din's... but then what? She has to be at a horrible position in the air to be forced to land on the stage away from Ness, and most Zelda players warp before or even after that point. Warping before would mean they either go for the ledge or you; warping after will more often than not keep her away from that PK Thunder technique because of the distance that'll be between the two of them.

Meh, this was the argument I was trying to avoid -_-

Yeah, but its not like she can always use that to recover. It's all about finding the situation in which wind is her best/only option.

Fair enough if you don't want to argue it out. I just felt the need to defend her stronger points.

 

[Nestec]

I gotta say, I strongly agree with most of what Raph said, and it was proved to me when I debated with STH. Zelda's defense is just too good.

 

[Yuna]

What the heck is up with this thread, anyway, so many people going on and on as if Zelda's got a 10-0 matchup against Ness. Ness can juggle her to death? Since when? What makes him so much better at juggling Zelda than any other character and if he can juggle people to death, why isn't he Top Tier?

In the air, Zelda still has airdodging and Nair... and you, know, DI. Ness really doesn't have anything that inherently wrecks Zelda's game. She can play against him just like she plays against any other character, only with less Din's Fire because PSI Magnet can absorb it.

Someone asked what Zelda has out of shield. Jabs into Dsmash, Dsmash, Fsmash (DI-able), D-tilt (which cantrip), F-tilt, grab to Bthrow. Ness still has a predictable Up B. What's he gonna do once he's lost his 2nd jump? Up B, that's what. And what can Zelda do then? Jump out into Fair, Dair, Uair or Bair or just Din's Fire.

Why the hell are people talking as if Ness can DI out of Zelda's smashes easier than, say, Mario? What the heck does Ness have that helps him DI out of her smashes better, really? Also, there's no DI:ing out of it if you're hit by the end part of them.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

The way i see it is ness clearly has the advantage. People are just trying to take away his advantages. I haven't seen one person actually state all of zelda's advantages just refute what ness has over her. Peoples arguments are invalid, and it seems as though zelda is just fighting a losing battle.

I don't have much to say about the matchup, but from reading this thread it looks like ness has the advantage.

 

[Yuna]

The way i see it is ness clearly has the advantage. People are just trying to take away his advantages. I haven't seen one person actually state all of zelda's advantages just refute what ness has over her. Peoples arguments are invalid, and it seems as though zelda is just fighting a losing battle.

I don't have much to say about the matchup, but from reading this thread it looks like ness has the advantage.

O... K... what I'm seeing here is you saying "Ness has a clear advantage" without actually providing any arguments, at all, to back it up. Why does Ness have the advantage? What advantages are these?

Zelda has the same things she has against all other characters. She doesn't have a crushing advantage, but she has more tools than Ness.

 

[Earthbound360]

Is Yuna anti-Ness or something?
It just seems whenever there's a debate against Ness (matchups, death grab, etc.) he's AGAINST Ness.

 

[Yuna]

Is Yuna anti-Ness or something?
It just seems whenever there's a debate against Ness (matchups, death grab, etc.) he's AGAINST Ness.

"Ness does not have the advantage in this one specific matchup" & "Infinites cannot and will not be banned" =/= Being anti-ness.

Now start providing some valid arguments for why you think Ness has a clear advantage.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

O... K... what I'm seeing here is you saying "Ness has a clear advantage" without actually providing any arguments, at all, to back it up. Why does Ness have the advantage? What advantages are these?

Zelda has the same things she has against all other characters. She doesn't have a crushing advantage, but she has more tools than Ness.

Arguments have already been stated in previous pages and i don't no need to keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Especially if someone is going to call what he has over her minor each time something is brought up. You also partially contradicted yourself. You stated none of these "tools" zelda has to use. If matchup discussions just went, "Blank character has more tools than Blank character" then it wouldn't be much of a discussion at all.

 

[Brinzy]

The way i see it is ness clearly has the advantage. People are just trying to take away his advantages. I haven't seen one person actually state all of zelda's advantages just refute what ness has over her. Peoples arguments are invalid, and it seems as though zelda is just fighting a losing battle.

I don't have much to say about the matchup, but from reading this thread it looks like ness has the advantage.

......... so many things wrong with what you said, but since people are acting like nobody stated Zelda's advantages (which were stated if you actually READ THE THREAD like you claimed):

- longer reach

- Nayru's Love

- Dsmash is the fastest smash in this match

- a generally better dtilt (isn't as spammable, but still trips, AND it makes the opponent flinch each time it connects)

- disjointed hitboxes

- higher priority (uair and Usmash, notably)

- can gimp Ness easier than he can gimp her; both can travel in several directions, but Zelda travels the whole distance in invincibility frames (not just at the beginning like Ness), is not as predictable, and she gets protection at the end of the attack. Not to mention you can just focus Din on PK Thunder and kill Ness.

- can reflect all of Ness's B attacks


... but despite this, I still believe the match is even, for reasons I'm not gonna repeat. I just think that this thread is being a bit ridiculous with how this thread says Ness beats out Zelda... I mean, it IS the Ness board, but like Yuna said, it's not a one-sided match like how people make it out to be. Ness has his advantages, but it isn't a blowout.

Arguments have already been stated in previous pages and i don't no need to keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Especially if someone is going to call what he has over her minor each time something is brought up. You also partially contradicted yourself. You stated none of these "tools" zelda has to use. If matchup discussions just went, "Blank character has more tools than Blank character" then it wouldn't be much of a discussion at all.

Point is invalidated because a lot of the argument for Ness was that he has the "tools" to combo Zelda... or we can keep it valid and just give them both points, whatever. Also, why are you acting like those arguing for Zelda are just here to brush Ness's advantages aside? Ness supporters are doing the same exact thing, but you're not saying anything to them. Talk about hypocrisy.

For the record, I'm supporting Zelda in this thread, but I still believe they're an even match, and I believe both characters have their strong points over the others. It's just that I don't need to point out Ness's because they've already been pointed out for the most part.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I read the thread, and i'm still not seeing the match as even. Maybe i'm just missing something but it looks to me like Ness has the advantage. Not to say people aren't putting up good arguments for zelda or ness, but the arguments i've seen for ness took way less effort, which in my mind means it's easier for ness to put up a fight then zelda. i'm not saying zelda can't win, but i don't think she actually has the advantage. Ness doesn't have a huge advantage over zelda like some people are saying but it's there. i'll leave it at 6-4 ness at the most. If someone can change my mind I may go neutral 5-5.

About the hypocrisy thing... you win that one lol. =]

 

[Brinzy]

The arguments take less effort for Ness because this is the Ness board. Present this thread in the Zelda board, and you get the same thing.

Regardless, sorry if I came off as rude or anything. It's kinda hard to argue for one character in some other character's board.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

The arguments take less effort for Ness because this is the Ness board. Present this thread in the Zelda board, and you get the same thing.

Regardless, sorry if I came off as rude or anything. It's kinda hard to argue for one character in some other character's board.

hmmm..... i guess i can agree with you on the fact that it's the ness board. I mean it 's not like an obvious advantage so you need more evidence to convince someone. Say as to where it's MK and falcon, and all you have to say is... it's MK vs. Falcon 10-0 MK lol j/k

naahh you didn't come off as rude. I mean it is an arguement (a kinda pointless one at that).