Ness vs. Link - Summary in Progress

[Yink]

Ness Match-Up Rediscussion #1

Link vs. Ness​

Absorbable Projectiles: No
Normal Projectiles: Yes


The Link Board Match-Up Discussion: Click Me!
Link's Frame Data: Click Me!


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Terminology:

Spoiler

PKF = PK Fire
PKFL (PKFl) = PK Flash
PKT = PK Thunder (as the ball and tail itself)
PKT2 = PK Thunder 2 (where the ball has hit Ness, sending him flying)
PSIM - PSI Magnet
DAS = Double Aerial Shuffle...a technique used by Ness
AC = Auto-Cancel
SHAD = Short Hop Air Dodge
SH = Short Hop
FS = Footstool

Any other ones, like nair (Neutral Air) will not be explained, seeing as most people know what they mean. If you however don't know, just ask.

Summary:

Spoiler

Link:

Ness vs Link aye?

I've played this matchup quite a few times. Have you guys heard of Meteor Master? Anyways we tend to go pretty even in tourney matches and friendlies.

As for grab release stuff. Link's only got Grab to Dsmash. Which isn't as brutal as what other characters have but it will kill around 150 (probably less on Ness) even with good DI fresh.

I find that Link's spam works quite well against Ness.

Link's gotta watch out for those PK2 Thunder mind games, Man I got hit by them heaps, so instead of landing on stage go for the ledge.

I think using PK thunder offstage on Link is good.

Grabbing Link will be super easy, since alot of his moves can be punished and it helps with your ridiculous fast grabs.

Apparently Ness's Nair does good against Link, because Meteor's always like, oh yeah I forgot to N-air spam.

Wow I really have nothing...

Ness:

Here's what I've got.

Scabe...PK Thunder off-stage is a bad idea, Gale Boomerang messes that up hardcore, I'd be really careful with using it, unless you really have to.

Try to powershield the projectiles maybe, get close enough to do some work with fair and nair. This really is a test of patience. We cannot out-camp you I wouldn't think but grabbing is what Ness should do. Fthrow does 11%, dthrow to a combo maybe.

As for Link's recovery, it's bad. He's easy to gimp (fairly easy anyways) and if he clawshots a lot, PK Fire does the job.

I want to place this around 55:45, Ness.

(I get most of my Link stuff from playing Legan, so...I think it's pretty good)

Power Shield everything Link throws at you.
I haven't tested this quite well, but if Link comes down with a Dair while Ness is right below him, you could PKT while Link is coming down, it'll push Link aside, while having all that lag from Dair. Punish with ease. Try it! ;-;
Don't give Link room to breathe and let him throw all those items at you, it'll be tough to get back.
I play M4ge a some-what daily basis, I think this MU is like 55/45 ; 60/40, Ness wins.

Match-Up Ratio: 55:45 Link, 55:45 Ness, 60:40 Ness




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This is my first time doing this men, if there's anything you want me to add, please speak up. Let the discussion begin!

 

[Purple]

Well, i was talking about this for the Wolf match-up, but teh same goes for ness too; do you think your character over powers link in the projectile game?

With Link's versatility (bomb drops, arrow cancelling, boomerang) I would say no.

 

[Scabe]

Ness vs Link aye?

I've played this matchup quite a few times. Have you guys heard of Meteor Master? Anyways we tend to go pretty even in tourney matches and friendlies.

As for grab release stuff. Link's only got Grab to Dsmash. Which isn't as brutal as what other characters have but it will kill around 150 (probably less on Ness) even with good DI fresh.

I find that Link's spam works quite well against Ness.

Link's gotta watch out for those PK2 Thunder mind games, Man I got hit by them heaps, so instead of landing on stage go for the ledge.

I think using PK thunder offstage on Link is good.

Grabbing Link will be super easy, since alot of his moves can be punished and it helps with your ridiculous fast grabs.

Apparently Ness's Nair does good against Link, because Meteor's always like, oh yeah I forgot to N-air spam.

Wow I really have nothing...

 

[Yink]

Here's what I've got.

Scabe...PK Thunder off-stage is a bad idea, Gale Boomerang messes that up hardcore, I'd be really careful with using it, unless you really have to.

Try to powershield the projectiles maybe, get close enough to do some work with fair and nair. This really is a test of patience. We cannot out-camp you I wouldn't think but grabbing is what Ness should do. Fthrow does 11%, dthrow to a combo maybe.

As for Link's recovery, it's bad. He's easy to gimp (fairly easy anyways) and if he clawshots a lot, PK Fire does the job.

I want to place this around 55:45, Ness.

(I get most of my Link stuff from playing Legan, so...I think it's pretty good)

 

[MrsSaturnandWatch]

Power Shield everything Link throws at you.
I haven't tested this quite well, but if Link comes down with a Dair while Ness is right below him, you could PKT while Link is coming down, it'll push Link aside, while having all that lag from Dair. Punish with ease. Try it! ;-;
Don't give Link room to breathe and let him throw all those items at you, it'll be tough to get back.
I play M4ge a some-what daily basis, I think this MU is like 55/45 ; 60/40, Ness wins.

 

[Scabe]

Oh yeah, go gale!

I find that I didn't get gimped much against Meteor. But I'm guessing Nair of Ness would be great gimpers against Link's Up B and Fair would be good offstage.

For neutrals, stages I like to take Ness are FD, since I can spam and there's lots of room for Link to move around and spam.

Zair wrecks your short hop approaches. I find that Zair is quite useful in this matchup.

 

[Eagleye893]

Magnet isn't of much use at all, but it's better than marth.

Pkt tailwhip around the offstage link ftw. Dair ownage on him. Pkfire>pillar spike is easier. Perfect shield while running at him... Either that or fh pkfire well spaced. Approach to an extent... Get close, but also Keep a good distance (w/in pkfire range but far enough to avoid grabs, zairs and other closer range options of link)
focus on punishment. Watch out for the combos. Don't pkt directly above yourself unless well planned pkt2 (dair from above!!!) @viva: they can ff the dair to cut right through the pkt and get you. Prefer moving outta the way.

Gale gimping is annoying. Mindgames offstage help that. Also the tether ledgehog.....

I can't think of much else other than the fact that link can easily out-projectile spam you. Keep close, find higher ground to pkt from...

60:40 or 55:45 ness

 

[Delta-cod]

Well, here comes my theorycrafting. I will now proceed to give my view on the MU from Deltacod, one of the gayest players out there.

First off, Link is going to try to camp you. I recommend not approaching. At all. Air camp out of his Zair range and take care of any projectiles coming to you. I believe you can nair Gale Boomerang and arrows away, so either do that or airdodge them. Watch out for bomb explosions, and if you can, catch them and throw them back at him. Don't approach, odds are Link will try to make a move on you, which you can punish. Usually, it'll be a Zair, DACUS, or an Autocanceled Aerial, such as fair. For Zair, depending on where you are, you can either shield it and attempt to attack him OoS, or airdodge and hit him as both of you land. For DACUS, shield it and he'll either slide past you or get stuck on you. If he slides past, shield drop and run and grab him. If he sticks with you, just shield it all and then grab him. If he ACs an aerial, you can try to beat it with one of your own, or just dodge it and reset the camp.

In the event Link doesn't approach, you'll need to go after him. Odds are, if you try to approach, he'll try to Zair you, Usmash, or retreating AC Aerial. The best place to approach from will probably be a 45 degree angle above and in front of Link, because it limits his options to hit you, mainly Zair. Full Hops are good for this spacing. SHAD is another good approach, you'd want to either land in front of him if you anticipate an attack you can punish, or behind him so he has a harder time hitting you.

Never approach if you have the lead. You should be able to dodge all his projectiles and force him into a disadvantaged position.

When you get a grab or attack on Link, keep the pressure on. If you grab him, depending on where you are, either throw him up or off stage. Link falls fast, so make sure you're ready for any attack that may come from above. Punish his landings if possible, either with a grab or Usmash. If Link starts to regain control of the situation, reset to neutral, don't try to force your way in for more damage.

If you throw Link off stage, make sure you chase him if he's far enough out that his recovery is limited. Nair and Fair are good to knock him even further out to really hurt his chances of making it back. If he makes it to the ledge, make sure you don't let him back on easy. Stand back just out of his ledge attack range and get ready to punish his attempts to return. Even if he does manage to get up, he's still got his back to the ledge, so don't retreat too far, try to find a way to force him back out, whether it be a grab, Fair, Nair, Bair. Of course, if he's not letting it happen, just reset to the neutral camp position. Hopefully you've acquired enough damage to force him to approach.

When you're recovering, make sure you don't get gimped. Link can tether the ledge and hang there to force you to recover onto the stage. Don't try to go for the ledge, Link will just refresh his invincibility with another tether grab. Also, make sure you're not getting gimped by the push/pull of the Gale Boomerang. The push only happens at the end of the boomerang's travel path, and the pull can get you if it gets behind you. Just make sure you recover quickly if you have to use PKT.

That's all I really got for now, and all I really want to say at the moment since I don't have actual experience. Feel free to correct me on anything.

 

[Eagleye893]

by approaching i meant pressure... not like get in his face, but close enough to do something rather than be pelted by arrows and boomerangs.... at least pkfire range....

 

[Purple]

This is what i see so far.

Cons against Ness

• Ness does not out camp Link
• Ness's grab range is shorter than Link's.
• Ness can be gimped easily by Link's gale boomerang.
• Ness's nair while more powerful, cannot outspace Link's nair.
• Link's jab is a pretty good distance keeper, good to keep ness away and allow camping.

Pros for Ness

• Obviously, ness has kill moves, and can generally kill much faster than link.
• I would think that Link being off stage can almost be guaranteed a stock. Ness's spike being the 2nd (or 3rd?) best spike in the game, that would be a great attack to trade with anything link does off-stage. I
• Ness's throw comes out faster and with less cool-down (obviously)
• Ness has more "combos". Can rack damage much faster than Link

I generally think this matchup can be hell for Ness if Link play's extremely patient, and extremely safe. I would argue to say this matchup is 55:45 Link, probably more even than that, generally because if ness gets in it leaves Link with very few options. But if link plays extremely smart, Ness is more likely to get frustrated than link would be.

 

[Yink]

I don't think it's in Link's favor at all. In response to your points against Ness:

1st bullet: Yes
2nd bullet: Yes
3rd bullet: Not really, that's easy if the Ness knows what they're doing
4th bullet: Yes and no. They trade hits, and Link goes further
5th bullet: Yes, but it's punishable

I still stand by saying this is a game of patience, and Ness can do more combos as you said and avoid the projectiles...if he throws you offstage as you said before Link's not going to have a lot of options.

 

[Purple]

I don't think it's in Link's favor at all. In response to your points against Ness:

1st bullet: Yes
2nd bullet: Yes
3rd bullet: Not really, that's easy if the Ness knows what they're doing
4th bullet: Yes and no. They trade hits, and Link goes further
5th bullet: Yes, but it's punishable

I still stand by saying this is a game of patience, and Ness can do more combos as you said and avoid the projectiles...if he throws you offstage as you said before Link's not going to have a lot of options.

Thank you very much for correcting me, so basically saying, everything i said is correct, except that ness is safer off the stage than link is.

Just curious, as i'm not a Ness player, playing the matchup against Link, where would you generally be located on the stage?

 

[Yink]

Thank you very much for correcting me, so basically saying, everything i said is correct, except that ness is safer off the stage than link is.

Just curious, as i'm not a Ness player, playing the matchup against Link, where would you generally be located on the stage?

I'm basically saying you're right about them but at the same time it's not that great for Link, because it's so easy to punish Link.

Also, if Link misses a grab, have fun getting smashed, bair'd, bthrew, etc. Bthrow if one of the best throws (if not the best) in the game.

Depends on what the stage is. If there's platforms Ness can abuse them well, and PKT2 through some of them. I'd assume Link will hang out near the edge of the stage (I'm not a Link, I can't be sure that's right though) and if they see something combo worthy they'll come closer to Ness. As already explained, Nair takes care of Gale and Arrows so that'll give time to approach Link. I'd really stress not staying too close to the edge.

 

[Kewkky]

The MU is on Nes's side. Link will get in some hits with zair, he'll probably kill you or gimp you once or twice... But let's see:

-Ness can kill easier (Ness's grab kills vs Link's laggy kill moves)...
-Ness can gimp Link as well, it's not a one-way advantage, and he can pressure high-recovering Links with upB into not dairing Ness...
-Ness has an easier time recovering than Link thanks to magnet 'stalling' and PKT2, which can send him at a farther horizontal distance, something Link can't do because of his slow horizontal air speed and fast fallspeed...
-Ness has a good zoning move (fair) and can stay in the air longer than Link, so Link would be forced to diagonal approaches or retreating and zairing (which he will run out of space eventually for).

An off-stage Link is in a far worse position than an offstage Ness. Ness can knock you offstage, and has a spike and fast aerials to compliment that, as well as his PK Fire's multi-hitting trait (which will drag Link lower and give Ness a chance to edgehog, then maybe ledgedrop an aerial to pressure Link even more).

Link is heavier so he survives more, definitely... But Ness has his bthrow! and fsmash! Bthrow requires no setup since his grab is fast and has decent range, and it's not just 'hoping the enemy will fall in the smash' since there's no combo for it. Ness can literally approach Link with a shield and Link can't do anyting except attempt to grab it, and if he misses then a charged fsmash will send him flying with ~20% more! It's true that Link can rough up Ness real good, but considering everything they can do to each other, the scales tip in Ness's favor. Link just can't call this one one of 'his MUs'.

 

[Joker490Frozen]

I think trying to outcamp Link will fail since he has more projectiles plus Zair to space himself however I think once you're inside of him it's hard for Link to battle Ness up close since Ness can pretty much combo him being heavy and all if anything you can always Fsmash his projectiles <(^.^<)

 

[Rizen]

• 2nd (or 3rd?) best spike in the game, that would be a great attack to trade with anything link does off-stage.

Gimping Link:
A Link offstage will spam like crazy. Ness will be hit by range before this spike happens. Link is so easy to Gimp a spike isn't necessary. Fair is harder for me to avoid because it's huge disjointed reach. PKT's tail is a good gimping tool, almost any attack Link has can cancel the head so curve it into an electric wall. If we (Links) need to we can airdodge>fast fall below Ness' PKFlash/PKThunder>tether the edge. If our boomerang pulls you we'll tether edgehog. Only spam if Link's high up or far from the stage.

On stage:
A good Link will DI your multihit attacks like PK fire so combo fast while you can. Ness must approach: choose small stages with lots of air room. Link's slow and heavy, Ness should focus on getting Link in the air, juggling, comboing and gimping Link. Your throws, like Bthrow, are good for putting Link in a bad position.

Despite Link being great at spacing and out spamming Ness, I'd say Ness wins this MU slightly 55/45. Being comboed and gimped destroys Link.

Edit:
“I'd assume Link will hang out near the edge of the stage”
Some do but a good Link won’t.

“Ness has an easier time recovering than Link thanks to magnet 'stalling' and PKT2, which can send him at a farther horizontal distance, something Link can't do because of his slow horizontal air speed and fast fallspeed...”

A note on this:
Link has horrible recovery, Ness is definitely better. But Link can do a lot to a recovering Ness. Nair or Zair will cancel PKT1 if it hits the head, or we can boomerang/arrow it. The end of our boomerang’s outward motion has a push effect and we can throw it 2 different distances at many angles. Arrows fall under the stage if spaced right and we can hit Ness several times when you’re trying to PKT and maybe hit the PKT head as Ness is arrow juggled lower. Once Link forces Ness to PKT2 from a bad angle we can Dair where you’ll go and have priority if spaced right. Link can tether edge-hog too.

 

[Rizen]

From Sasook:
Quote (originally posted by sasook):
Someone C/P this over there for me:

That frame data link is wrong. The correct one is here: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=124952

As for the actual matchup, I have no idea. But I needed to point that out.



After reading some posts over there:

Quote (originally posted by Delta-cod):
Don't approach, odds are Link will try to make a move on you, which you can punish.


=/

We have projectiles. You do too, but they're not nearly as useful in terms of trying to outcamp us. We won't ever approach if we don't have to. Now, if you have a % lead, that's a different story.

Quote (originally posted by Delta-cod):
Usually, it'll be a Zair, DACUS, or an Autocanceled Aerial, such as fair.


Nah, zair maybe but the other 2...definitely no. Links hardly ever use DAC if at all, because it's so unsafe, and fair is not safe on shield. Link has no safe approach, if anything he'll just approach with a ton of projectiles.

Quote (originally posted by Delta-cod):
For Zair, depending on where you are, you can either shield it and attempt to attack him OoS, or airdodge and hit him as both of you land.


Are you sure on this? That zair is pretty long. I know Ness' fair has some nice range, but is it that long?

Quote (originally posted by Delta-cod):
For DACUS, shield it and he'll either slide past you or get stuck on you. If he slides past, shield drop and run and grab him. If he sticks with you, just shield it all and then grab him. If he ACs an aerial, you can try to beat it with one of your own, or just dodge it and reset the camp.


See above comment about DAC/fair.

Quote (originally posted by Delta-cod):
Odds are, if you try to approach, he'll try to Zair you, Usmash, or retreating AC Aerial.


Yes, no and no. Usmash is a damage racker that is used when it's guaranteed. It's simply too laggy to be used otherwise. If Link had to use a move to cover an aerial approach, it would be utilt. And the chances of him using a retreating aerial are smaller than him retreating while throwing stuff at you, mainly bombs.

Quote (originally posted by Roxy):
This is what i see so far.

Cons against Ness

• Ness does not out camp Link
• Ness's grab range is shorter than Link's.
• Ness can be gimped easily by Link's gale boomerang.
• Ness's nair while more powerful, cannot outspace Link's nair.
• Link's jab is a pretty good distance keeper, good to keep ness away and allow camping.
• Link has a guaranteed KO move to land on Ness if he lands a grab

Pros for Ness

• Obviously, ness has kill moves, and can generally kill much faster than link.
• I would think that Link being off stage can almost be guaranteed a stock. Ness's spike being the 2nd (or 3rd?) best spike in the game, that would be a great attack to trade with anything link does off-stage. I
• Ness's throw comes out faster and with less cool-down (obviously)
• Ness has more "combos". Can rack damage much faster than Link

Just wanted to throw that last bullet onto the cons list. And I really disagree with bullets 1 and 2 on the pros list. Ness is average weight, no? Link is heavy as anything. Combine that with his plethora of KO moves (fsmash, ftilt, utilt, dair, uair, fair, dsmash, spin attack) and I really don't feel like Ness KOs Link faster.As for the offstage Link is guaranteed stock...D:

That's like Link of '08 dude. Fact: Link mains have incredible DI. Like, not bragging, just stating facts. It's gotten to the point where we get disappointed if we die at 170%, because it could have been higher. Heck, even when we see Ally DI on livestream and hear everyone OMG THAT WAS AMAZING DI we're like "...meh."

That being said, your bthrow is incredibly strong at high percents and will kill Link much, much earlier than he's used to, and your dair...there's pretty much no coming back from that. But I just wanted to point out that gimping Link does not mean throw off and then taunt. Link mains have learned to exploit just about every type of edgeguard to help them get back to the stage, even if it does put on an extra 30%.

Quote (originally posted by Kewkky):
-Ness can kill easier (Ness's grab kills vs Link's laggy kill moves)...


See above. Not all of his KO moves are laggy.

Quote (originally posted by Kewkky):
-Ness can gimp Link as well, it's not a one-way advantage, and he can pressure high-recovering Links with upB into not dairing Ness...


Could you rephrase this? I don't really follow.

Quote (originally posted by Kewkky):
An off-stage Link is in a far worse position than an offstage Ness. Ness can knock you offstage, and has a spike and fast aerials to compliment that, as well as his PK Fire's multi-hitting trait (which will drag Link lower and give Ness a chance to edgehog, then maybe ledgedrop an aerial to pressure Link even more).


Despite what I said about DI, I agree with this.

Quote (originally posted by Kewkky):
But Ness has his bthrow! and fsmash!


Does Ness have a strong fsmash? I can't remember off the top of my head, but I know it's easy to react to in terms of DI. I'd rely more on that bthrow, that throw is... @_@.

Quote (originally posted by Kewkky):
Ness can literally approach Link with a shield and Link can't do anyting except attempt to grab it


Uh, what? Lol, no. There are many, many more things Link can do than attempt to grab. He can space an fsmash on it, he can space a zair on it, he can simply choose not to attack it and use the time to pull a bomb, to reset spacing, etc.

Quote (originally posted by Kewkky):
Link just can't call this one one of 'his MUs'.


He can't do that for any of his matchups.



Side note: Let's say we're getting to a high percentage, even for us. Like...220% is a decent number. If you try to KO with a horizontal move, Link can whiplash it - as he's flying back, he tethers the ledge. So, keep in mind to use a move that has a trajectory of 45 degrees or higher.

Overall I'd say 6/4 Ness.



Someone C/P ^that in addition to the first quote.

 

[Yink]

This post above me is amazing, I disagree with some of it but it's an amazing post because of all the information you gave me.

The only big thing I want to point out is, yes, Ness is almost in the middle of midweight, you can live to around 200-210 on a good day (at least I can...), but if Ness gets a nice, fresh bthrow on Link and he's around 140+ I'm going to assume it'll either kill you or put you in a bad position.

You can say Links have good DI, but not all of them do. Same with any other character.

Also, thank you for pointing out the bad frame data, I will put up the new one. ^_^

 

[Kewkky]

OH MY GOD I HATE INTERNET EXPLORER. WHY AM I EVEN USING THIS BROWSER WHEN I HAVE BOTH GOOGLE CHROME AND FIREFOX IN MY PC UP-TO-DATE.


My response got deleted. Wait until i find the motivation to write it again and i shall reply to you, MES!.

 

[Delta-cod]

Haha, thanks for the corrections Mes. Like I said, I was mostly theorycrafting.

Poor Kewkky.

 

[M4ge]

I play M4ge a some-what daily basis, I think this MU is like 55/45 ; 60/40, Ness wins.

lolwut we played like once and that was at gauntlet during the summer LMAO.

Will post on MU later.

 

[Uffe]

I can't really say I've ever had a good Link gimp me with his Gale Boomerang, Arrows or Bombs, but I can say that Link does have some pretty decent kill moves. Like if he was given a better recovery, he'd do a lot better in almost every match. I've fought some Link's and were able to rush them off the stage, though it's a little tricky, because a good Link won't just let you knock them out of the stage. But with that aside, Link has some pretty mean attacks and kill power. I say it's a 55:45, Ness. Not necessarily bad on Link's part since that match-up isn't even that far from being even.

 

[Purple]

Sorry for taking forever to respond, however i would say that link would generally be in the center of the stage, as far away as possible from getting gimped. Even with this though. His general recovery is horrible. i take back my statement saying link would be better. Even with being able to outcamp/outspace. Just because of that recovery statement it's a lot worse.

But then again taking recovery out of the way it seems the matchup is better for link...

 

[Uffe]

Well with projectile, I know that Ness' nair can stop the Gale Boomerang, possibly catch Bombs and I think even stop Arrows. The last part may be wrong, though, so don't quote me on that. Technically neither character would stay in the middle of the stage forever. Both have good kill moves, but Link's could get obvious. But I'm not doubting that his kill moves are pretty leathal.

 

[Purple]

Why wouldn't link stay in the middle? Link is **** amazing when it comes to spacing, and being away from off - stage greatly helps link, that's his main downfall is unnatural gimps.

MES! - explain the guarnteed kill please. are you implying this might be more in link's favor than it's being given? or that this is decent.

 

[M4ge]

MES! - explain the guarnteed kill please.

Not MES but grabrelease dsmash is guaranteed.

 

[Uffe]

Why wouldn't link stay in the middle? Link is **** amazing when it comes to spacing, and being away from off - stage greatly helps link, that's his main downfall is unnatural gimps.

MES! - explain the guarnteed kill please. are you implying this might be more in link's favor than it's being given? or that this is decent.

In order to space, you must move about. You cannot just linger in the middle forever, because Ness can and will get close, just like Link could do the same to Ness.

Not MES but grabrelease dsmash is guaranteed.

Guaranteed, but usually isn't the case because of it being a tether grab. You're better off just using the d-smash alone but not making it obvious.

 

[Purple]

Not MES but grabrelease dsmash is guaranteed.

oh, i was asking 'MES!' to explain it to me. Apparently everyone has amazing DI, so that wouldn't kill until about 120~.

Basically saying, if it was a grab war for a kill, link would win? o_o

 

[Jiffyboob]

I'm just gonna throw this in here.... It's something I notice.

Link does live a long time. Don't get impatient fighting him.

When he is above you, Don't just think "oh look hes up there, a UAir will kill him easy."
It can kill him up there but chances are you are gonna eat a DAir from him. Its really nasty and just might kill you.

I will probably write more tomorrow. I have to work in the morning.

I figure adding my 2 cents in can't hurt. The above might be common knowledge but its more about having the right mindset sometimes.

Bait a Link into thinking he has something (like the aforementioned laggy DAir) then punish it when theres nothing there for him.

Also, Retreating ZAir is annoying.

 

[Sync_]

Nair Nair Nair Nair. Bthrow.

Also, a near ledge fthrow can kill at 50%+. I think that sends him far enough. You can seriously tip Link with Fair or Nair off stage, and his chances of getting back are reduced greatly.

Basically saying, if it was a grab war for a kill, link would win? o_o

No offense, but good luck getting the grab too.

 

[Rizen]

(Thanks for the complements but, I'm posting what Sasook said on AiB, he's banned from SWFs)

Quote Sasook:
Someone post this over there:

Quote (originally posted by Yink):
The only big thing I want to point out is, yes, Ness is almost in the middle of midweight, you can live to around 200-210 on a good day (at least I can...), but if Ness gets a nice, fresh bthrow on Link and he's around 140+ I'm going to assume it'll either kill you or put you in a bad position.
With Link's KO power 200 is a bit high... even Snake has trouble living that high against Link (and vice versa). As for your bthrow, it'll probably kill us around that percentage, maybe even earlier at like 130.

Quote (originally posted by Yink):
You can say Links have good DI, but not all of them do. Same with any other character.
You'd think so, right? But honestly it's true - good Links have amazing DI. Here's the reason: DI is our recovery. That's why we've mastered it so.

Like... good players have good DI, but not fantastic. Because they can rely on good DI and then their recovery. We have DI and then....basically nothing. And I assume that we're talking highest level of play, so the Link will indeed have very good DI.

But I digress. Point is, fsmash won't kill us as early as you might think. Bthrow, however, will.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If Link does get a grab he can try to pumel a ground release out of Ness for a free Dsmash, I'm assuming the Ness doesn't make a mistake like this but it's worth nothing for the Ness to pay attention to.

I think this is even, but I'll leave more and better input later.

 

[kennypu]

I'm too lazy to look through the whole MU, but if this would help, its a recent match against a link:
Kennypu vs Just Jo part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHn_ok7-Z1U
part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBMAon4WF9I
I was a huge pk fire ***** :D

 

[Scabe]

]If only my internet wasn't so slow I'd watch that match, but yeah even though Just Jo doesn't post, he's quite a legit Link.

 

[Rizen]

I'm too lazy to look through the whole MU, but if this would help, its a recent match against a link:
Kennypu vs Just Jo part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHn_ok7-Z1U
part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBMAon4WF9I
I was a huge pk fire ***** :D

These show the MU on a big stage well, from my experience. Both characters had a range-campy style. The Link didn't use a few tricks like ledgestall attacks, Zair/Fsmash with a bomb and missed some edgeguarding.

 

[AfroTwist ShadowPie]

Well, here comes my theorycrafting. I will now proceed to give my view on the MU from Deltacod, one of the gayest players out there.

First off, Link is going to try to camp you. I recommend not approaching. At all. Air camp out of his Zair range and take care of any projectiles coming to you. I believe you can nair Gale Boomerang and arrows away, so either do that or airdodge them. Watch out for bomb explosions, and if you can, catch them and throw them back at him. Don't approach, odds are Link will try to make a move on you, which you can punish. Usually, it'll be a Zair, DACUS, or an Autocanceled Aerial, such as fair. For Zair, depending on where you are, you can either shield it and attempt to attack him OoS, or airdodge and hit him as both of you land. For DACUS, shield it and he'll either slide past you or get stuck on you. If he slides past, shield drop and run and grab him. If he sticks with you, just shield it all and then grab him. If he ACs an aerial, you can try to beat it with one of your own, or just dodge it and reset the camp.

=/

We have projectiles. You do too, but they're not nearly as useful in terms of trying to outcamp us. We won't ever approach if we don't have to. Now, if you have a % lead, that's a different story.

This.
But honestly, Link shouldn't aproach just because of a % lead, unless there's a chance he'll get timed.
And uh, pretty much everything else sasook said.
Also, it's impossible for Ness to punish a SPACED Zair, framewise. Just throwing that out there.

In the event Link doesn't approach, you'll need to go after him. Odds are, if you try to approach, he'll try to Zair you, Usmash, or retreating AC Aerial. The best place to approach from will probably be a 45 degree angle above and in front of Link, because it limits his options to hit you, mainly Zair. Full Hops are good for this spacing. SHAD is another good approach, you'd want to either land in front of him if you anticipate an attack you can punish, or behind him so he has a harder time hitting you.

Never approach if you have the lead. You should be able to dodge all his projectiles and force him into a disadvantaged position.

When you get a grab or attack on Link, keep the pressure on. If you grab him, depending on where you are, either throw him up or off stage. Link falls fast, so make sure you're ready for any attack that may come from above. Punish his landings if possible, either with a grab or Usmash. If Link starts to regain control of the situation, reset to neutral, don't try to force your way in for more damage.

If you throw Link off stage, make sure you chase him if he's far enough out that his recovery is limited. Nair and Fair are good to knock him even further out to really hurt his chances of making it back. If he makes it to the ledge, make sure you don't let him back on easy. Stand back just out of his ledge attack range and get ready to punish his attempts to return. Even if he does manage to get up, he's still got his back to the ledge, so don't retreat too far, try to find a way to force him back out, whether it be a grab, Fair, Nair, Bair. Of course, if he's not letting it happen, just reset to the neutral camp position. Hopefully you've acquired enough damage to force him to approach.

When you're recovering, make sure you don't get gimped. Link can tether the ledge and hang there to force you to recover onto the stage. Don't try to go for the ledge, Link will just refresh his invincibility with another tether grab. Also, make sure you're not getting gimped by the push/pull of the Gale Boomerang. The push only happens at the end of the boomerang's travel path, and the pull can get you if it gets behind you. Just make sure you recover quickly if you have to use PKT.

That's all I really got for now, and all I really want to say at the moment since I don't have actual experience. Feel free to correct me on anything.

Everything sasook said aaaand for the offstage stuff, anything that doesn't give too much knockback upwards (with DI) gimps Link. Just get around whatever he throws at you and hit him lol. Watch out for returning rangs when going back though. I know it's unlikely, but you can lose a stock just like that lol. Also, PKT offstage is pretty bad. Any of Link's projectiles/aerials cancels them out. Chasing him is way better.
Oh yeah, and Link can Dair bounce on you if you're not careful.

and if he clawshots a lot, PK Fire does the job.

You mean like, sending a PK fire under a SH Zair? That's honestly very unlikely to happen if the Link just spaces it well, since it has no landing lag, at all.

Power Shield everything Link throws at you.
I haven't tested this quite well, but if Link comes down with a Dair while Ness is right below him, you could PKT while Link is coming down, it'll push Link aside, while having all that lag from Dair. Punish with ease. Try it! ;-;

PSing Link's projectiles is probably the most reliable way of aproaching, but you need to be careful with your shield, since it's fairly small. Link can charge arrows, SH bombthrow to AC, etc to make aproaching go slower and wear down your shield. Also, when you're up close and your shield is weared down by projectiles, it won't take more than a double Fsmash to break it. Link got some pretty nifty shield break combos, so you're pretty much ****ed if your shield breaks lol.

Magnet isn't of much use at all, but it's better than marth.

Pkt tailwhip around the offstage link ftw. Dair ownage on him. Pkfire>pillar spike is easier. Perfect shield while running at him... Either that or fh pkfire well spaced. Approach to an extent... Get close, but also Keep a good distance (w/in pkfire range but far enough to avoid grabs, zairs and other closer range options of link)
focus on punishment. Watch out for the combos. Don't pkt directly above yourself unless well planned pkt2 (dair from above!!!) @viva: they can ff the dair to cut right through the pkt and get you. Prefer moving outta the way.

Gale gimping is annoying. Mindgames offstage help that. Also the tether ledgehog.....

I can't think of much else other than the fact that link can easily out-projectile spam you. Keep close, find higher ground to pkt from...

60:40 or 55:45 ness

Dair kills Link offstage at any %. Link has some options (mainly throwing stuff at Ness) to keep his Dair away, but still Ness being able to kill Link at 0% offstage is his biggest advantage in this match-up.
Honestly, you're much better of in close range/The reach of your aerials. Link can just walk a little bit away and you'll be exactly where he wants you if you keep a distance where only PK fire reaches Link.
Viva/Eagleye, Link won't be getting ending lag from Dair, unless it hits you first. The only time Link should be using it is when it will autocancel or it can be used to punish. Sure, PKT2 can probably punish a missed Dair, but at a high level of play, this just won't be happening.

-Ness can kill easier (Ness's grab kills vs Link's laggy kill moves)...

False.

The only big thing I want to point out is, yes, Ness is almost in the middle of midweight, you can live to around 200-210 on a good day (at least I can...), but if Ness gets a nice, fresh bthrow on Link and he's around 140+ I'm going to assume it'll either kill you or put you in a bad position.

You can say Links have good DI, but not all of them do. Same with any other character.

Also, thank you for pointing out the bad frame data, I will put up the new one. ^_^

Adding on to what sasook said: 200% is a bit high, yes. Maybe you can KO Link at 140% with a Bthrow, but maybe Link will land a Ftilt or something at 130% lol
And not only any Snake would have trouble living that long against Link... Like the only person you'll see live that long are players like Ally, lol.
As for the DI, a "good" Link main has DI on par with top players, it's over half of our entire metagame. So yeah, what sasook said.
But uuuhhhh anyway, even though Link lacks KO power for his weight, killing is actually one of his strengths. He got legit set-ups like jab-cancels, bombstools, forced get-ups, and a grab release to Dsmash on Ness.
Ness sure got some KO power, but he's not GaW. He can't compete with the heavy weights on this field.

Nair Nair Nair Nair. Bthrow.

Also, a near ledge fthrow can kill at 50%+. I think that sends him far enough. You can seriously tip Link with Fair or Nair off stage, and his chances of getting back are reduced greatly. No offense, but good luck getting the grab too.

You mean you really think you can KO Link at 50% ._.
As for the grab thing, Ness got a good airgame, but he's not Wario lol. Link's KO set-ups works for grabs to. Link got way better options than grab release to Dsmash when Ness is at KO %, buuut it's still pretty nice. Link can for example juggle to jab canceled grab to dsmash.

Ugh... I feel really lazy so this is all I got.
60:40 Ness at best 55:45 at worst.

Uh and I'd try to get some matches with some better players for the match-up. No offense to Just Jo and KennyPu.

 

[Eagleye893]

nair can stop nearly any projectile as long as it hits with the opening frames and not the sourspot. Lasers, pkfire, samus' and lucario's charged neutral b attacks, and few more can go around nair. Solid hitting projectiles, not energy, can be blocked all the time by nair.

I just don't spam it because I seem to get punished for doing so, even with it being ness' quickest aerial.

 

[Hanzhou]

This MU imo is in Ness' favor. Once ness gets in he's in. Grab release Dsmash abuse on Ness is still annoying -_-

*cough*KirinBlaze*cough*

 

[Purple]

Nair Nair Nair Nair. Bthrow.

Also, a near ledge fthrow can kill at 50%+. I think that sends him far enough. You can seriously tip Link with Fair or Nair off stage, and his chances of getting back are reduced greatly.




No offense, but good luck getting the grab too.

if link is playing how he should with all spacing and patience, i'm sure he could. remember we're talking about two players being equally skilled with their character. it honestly it sounding like this matchup is better for link than people are explaining =/

Link is extremely heavy in comparison to Ness, i find it hard to believe that ness can live to the same percentage as link (this is ignoring b-throw).

In this matchup, link will be keeping you away the entire time, leaving f-tilts and such for potentially kills, and obviously d-smash for grab release d-smash if he feels lucky. I see this matchup as way too even, juts because link has bad recovery doesn't mean he will die easily, i can't see a regular link who knows the basics of his character, just letting himself fall of the side or down off the stage, they're going to di up and optimize their chances of recovery. If anything, link's recovery is just a bit worse than ness at this point.

 

[Yink]

You mean like, sending a PK fire under a SH Zair? That's honestly very unlikely to happen if the Link just spaces it well, since it has no landing lag, at all.

No, I was talking about off-stage...anything ignites PK Fire (I'm fairly certain) except for obvious shields, counters, Lucas' stick, etc. I apologize for the confusion.

I still don't feel this is as high as 60:40, so I'll probably be giving some slack and saying it's 55:45 Ness. Roxy if you feel this is more even you are more than welcome to say it's 50:50 in Link's defense.

I really, really appreciate all of the Links for coming in here. Last time we discussed this we hardly had anymore. Thank you all very much!