Ness Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Thread

Necro'lic

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
653
It has been a long while since my last redesign thread, mostly because I've been busy with college, and now in the summer... I'm just playing Monster Hunter and trying to keep an income. Hehe.

Ugh.

In the meantime, I've come up with a small redesign idea for Ness, so here we go!

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Ah, Ness. My OG main back in Melee when I was a kid. I always wanted psychic powers when I was a kid, so playing him felt so right, even though I didn't know what Earthbound was lol. After looking through Earthbound and all the PSI moves though, I think a small rework could be done here to up the ante on the psychic prowess.

The only changes I feel Ness could real get to become more unique than he already is is to change his specials to differentiate him from Lucas. As such, consider this redesign a part 1 of 2 to declone Lucas while also changing his original fighter a bit. Plus, I wanted to see if using other moves in his games could work well enough in a theoretical smash redesign, so sue me. :p

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:ultness: Special trait: PP Meter

  • Ness now has a PP meter that will regenerate naturally and is used up whenever he uses a special move. Will also have five different icons to show which of his moves can and can't be used at the PSI level he currently has
    • Caps at 200
    • Regenerates at 12 PSI per second
      • Fully regenerates in 16.66 seconds
    • Will automatically be full when respawning
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Works basically like the PP meter in the Earthbound games, but with constant regeneration. It also will give indication whenever one of Ness's special moves can't be used due to insufficient PSI. While this seems like a meaningless limitation for the sake of canon, this limiting of his special moves basically gives me "permission" to make them absolutely insane without breaking the character.

Also, you might've noticed the use of the word "five" when talking about special moves... Let's go through them, shall we?

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:GCRT::GCB: Shield-B:

  • Remapped move: PSI Magnet: Creates a PSI field around Ness, giving him knockback resistance when used on the ground, and momentum conservation when in the air that can be slightly controlled. Can be held indefinitely or until PSI runs out. When released, will slightly knock away nearby enemies. Can also absorb all projectiles, giving extra PSI when doing so
    • Costs 32 PSI per second
      • Effectively drains 20 PSI per second while in use
    • Minimum PSI given from projectile absorption is 85. Maximum is 200
    • Gives 40% knockback resistance while on ground
  • Extremely low startup
  • Average endlag
  • High hitstun
  • Extremely high DI deviation
  • No shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Knockback is fixed
  • Knockback angle is upwards at 85 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers: 5.0%

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So this gets crazy quickly. PSI Magnet has gone from an extremely niche move to a multipurpose tool Ness can use for pretty cheap PSI, especially if it's less than a second. In fact, it's discouraged to even use it for very long most of the time due to the constant PSI drain. But let's go through the four main uses of this new PSI Magnet.

Firstly, you can resist big hits with it when planted on the ground, living up to the magnet motif, and giving Ness some good longevity and potential stage reclaim ability due to his lackluster recovery not being a big deal when he isn't knocked too far away from his opponent. However, since it doesn't actually reduce damage, this knockback reduction could actually get him caught in a combo he usually wouldn't get into if he isn't careful with gauging the opponent's next move.

Secondly, the vertical momentum stop of the move, which is the secondary use of it in Ultimate, is expanded to be controllable and longer lasting, giving Ness a "glide" in a sense, helping with sideways recovery immensely. Though it can also be done slightly vertically, it is mostly sideways, and is meant to emulate the magnet repelling him from the ground. Second part of the magnet motif!

The third, and actually repurposed part, is that not only can Ness absorb all projectiles, but instead of getting health, he will gain PSI to use. The PSI return is massive no matter what you absorb, and bigger projectiles can potentially fill the PSI meter by themselves, making it immensely useful for continuing an onslaught of special moves.

The last use is the new hitbox. Not only is it slightly stronger, but it basically guarantees some sort of combo starter with its high hitstun. Perfect in conjunction with the momentum conservation part.

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:GCB: Neutral-B:

  • New move: PSI Rockin: Ness creates a large, harmful soundwave around him, dealing a random amount of damage and giving all enemies that get hit a debuff that makes them take more damage from Ness's special moves, while also taking more knockback from PSI Rockin. This debuff can stack up to 4 times
    • Costs 60 PSI
    • Radius is about three Ness's in diameter
    • Debuff lasts for 10 seconds
      • Debuff will be refreshed when a stack is added
    • Each stack gives an additional 9% damage to special moves and 10% knockback to PSI Rockin. Maximum is 36% extra damage and 40% extra knockback
      • (Note: this is percentage relative to the base damage of the moves, not a literal addition of percent damage)
  • Above average startup
  • Above average endlag
  • Transcendent priority
  • Above average shield damage
  • Barely safe on shield
  • Knockback is independent of damage from this move
  • Knockback angle is dependent on position from Ness (above sends upward, below sends downward, etc.)
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Minimum: 11%
    • Maximum: 19%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Upwards: 130%
    • Sideways: 140%
    • Downwards: 210%

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A new move! Despite all these stats and words, this move is hilariously simple. Ness creates a circle of damage that, if it hits an enemy, does a random amount of damage and makes that enemy take extra damage from Ness's other special moves, while also giving extra knockback to subsequent PSI Rockin attempts. It's semi-spammable, and doesn't cost too much PSI to use. Its usefulness on shields is also apparent, being actually safe on shield while dealing good shield pressure. And when it actually hits, it has a dynamic knockback direction, meaning it can function as a stage controller or edgeguarding killer if done from the side, meteor smash if done from above the enemy, or a ceiling killer when done below, making it even more versatile.

This move would mostly be used for combo finishers or a niche OOS option to send people away from Ness while at the same time getting those stacks up. Even at early percents, it will have enough hitstun to actually continue a combo in some cases. It's a snowballing move that can potentially get absolutely insane damage on the enemy if Ness is on a roll. Of course, Ness's main weakness is his low range, so it will still be hard, but rewarding when pulled off.

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:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side-B:

  • PK Fire: Ness shoots a small flare from his finger. If it connects with an enemy or item, it will erupt into a pillar of flame that traps the hit enemy or item within it temporarily. After a successful hit, Ness can choose which direction the pillar will go, carrying the enemy/item a short distance. Will launch the enemy/item after the pillar expires. Also causes a damage over time effect to the enemy.
    • Costs 130 PSI
    • Flare can be aimed upward and downward at an angle of about 45 degrees in both directions
    • Does not activate when hitting shields or non-item projectiles
    • Damage over time lasts for 10 seconds
    • Any item within the pillar is possessed by Ness
      • Any item launched by the pillar will act as if it is thrown by Ness in the direction he chooses the pillar to go
    • Pillar lasts for 1.5 seconds
    • Pillar can carry a distance of about a full Battlefield platform length
    • Cannot DI out of the pillar by any means
  • Average startup
  • High endlag
  • Extremely low shield damage
  • Very unsafe on shield
  • Knockback angle is upwards at 75 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Flare: 3.0%
    • Pillar: 0.6% * 10
    • Pillar expiration: 6.4%
    • Damage over time: 0.7% per 0.5 seconds
    • Total: 29.4%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Pillar expiration: 175%

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Oh boy, I just keep coming up with weird things don't I? Hopefully this isn't too ambitious. Basically the big changes to PK Fire is that, first off, you can actually freely aim the flare Ness shoots out, making it far easier to use against airborne opponents and opponents to the side of Ness while he is in the air. The second big thing is that the enemy cannot actually escape the pillar anymore, as it will engulf them entirely, acting like a stun, giving Ness incredible killing and combo setup potential right out of the gate.

But the biggest change is the ability to psychically will the opponent within the pillar to a direction you want. This could be downwards to set up for an easy DAir off the stage, sideways away from Ness to take them further off stage or zone with PK Thunder (which we will get to), upwards to set up for aerials or platform shenanigans, or even towards Ness right into an changed up smash attack. Really, the possibilities are endless, and you can clearly see why it costs way over half Ness's PP meter to even use.

An added bonus is the ability to carry items. This isn't super impactful except with maybe things like Link matchups or Diddy, especially when taking into account the PP meter stopping spam of this move, but it makes sense for a psychic child to psychically carry and throw around items, so I think it gives some extra potential in this move, however minimal.

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:GCU::GCB: Up-B:

  • PK Thunder: Ness creates ball lightning that is freely controllable by him for a short period. The ball can hit enemies and goes through items. Ball lightning has snaking lightning behind it that will barely stun the enemy, but will not stop the PK Thunder. Can aim the PK Thunder at Ness to shoot himself opposite the direction the ball lightning hit him, heavily damaging anything in his path. Pressing Up-B again will immediately stop PK Thunder and give movement back to Ness. Using this in midair will cause helplessness after PK Thunder hits an enemy or it is stopped manually
    • (Note: Banking ability of PK Thunder would be equal to Lucas's currently tighter turning PK Thunder)
    • Costs 30 PSI
      • Hitting an enemy or Ness will take away an extra 95 PSI
      • Hitting an enemy with the snaking trail of the PK Thunder will not cost extra PSI
    • Snaking trail of PK Thunder is about 1/2 the distance of Final Destination
    • PK Thunder is immune to absorption, destruction, and reflection
    • PK Missile is unable to be countered
    • PK Missile hitting a wall will cause an automatic tech, regardless of damage percentage of Ness
  • Above average startup
  • High endlag
  • Extremely high priority on PK Missile
  • Low shield damage on PK Thunder
    • No shield damage on PK Thunder trail
    • Guaranteed shield break on PK Missile
  • Average shieldstun on PK Thunder
    • Low shieldstun on PK Thunder trail
  • Knockback for all hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • PK Thunder: 17.0%
    • PK Thunder trail: 1.3% per 0.8 seconds
    • PK Missile early: 29.8%
    • PK Missile late: 22.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • PK Thunder: 280%
    • PK Missile early: 50%
    • PK Missile late: 65%

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So unlike PK Fire, there is little changed about this on a fundamental level. I simply added and removed some things that make this into a monstrous move, while also giving some clever use of PSI from the PP meter.

The first thing to note is the ability to cancel the move early. The applications for this should be obvious, though it still causes helplessness if cancelled while airborne.

A second thing to note is that the PSI cost is miniscule, but there is an extra cost when hitting either an enemy successfully or Ness himself, thus making spamming this move unfeasible. Unless, of course, you use the now longer trail of the thunder to harass the enemy, as it doesn't cost anything. This gives a clever player some multipurpose in their PK Thunders, as while the projectile is much stronger in damage, it takes away a lot of PSI. This is combined with the control seen in Lucas's PK Thunder, meaning it's far easier for Ness to not only harass with only the trail and not the ball itself, but it makes it far easier to PK Missile to the stage.

Speaking of recovery, this got the most love, mostly to counteract the lack of spammability of PK Missile due to the PP meter. Not only is the projectile itself no longer able to be absorbed by the likes of other Ness's, Rosalina, or Mii Gunner, but it can't be reflected by reflectors or destroyed by other stronger projectiles. In addition to this, it pierces through items, meaning even a simple item throw will not stop the ball. This leaves the only course of action: intentionally hitting the PK Thunder, as the only truly feasible option to gimp Ness without having to hit him.

But wait, because even when he gets the PK Missile off, surely you could do the usual of countering him or simply countering his ascent with a stronger hit right? WRONG! Not only will counters not work, but like maximum charge Shield Breaker and Jet Hammer, this will be guaranteed to break a shield no matter what. And the priority of the move is the highest it would be in the game, meaning nearly nothing could stop it once it starts. Worthy of the hefty PSI cost.

However, some things were removed, like the brief pierce ability of the move at the very start of summoning it making enemies on top of Ness a far worse prospect for getting off your recovery, as well as the intangibility of the Missile, though the high priority makes that change negligible. Overall, this move, while still a meh recovery, has lost a lot of easy counters and gained extra control in the process.

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:GCD::GCB:Down-B:

  • Remapped move with new sequence: PK Flash: Ness will conjure a small spark from his head that can be freely controlled. Can set the spark in a location similar to a mine. Before setting, Ness can press A, B, or X/Y to set an extra effect on the spark. Can detonate the spark by either holding down and B, or pressing down and B while setting the spark, dealing heavy damage and the additional chosen effect set beforehand to any enemies hit. Can only have one spark out at a time
    • Costs 0 PSI to set up spark
      • Costs 135 PSI to detonate
    • Added PK Flash effects:
      • :GCA: Weakens attacks for 15 seconds
      • :GCB: Sleep for 5 seconds
      • :GCX:/ :GCY: Flower for 8 seconds
    • Weakens attacks by removing 25% of their damage
    • Sleep version does not cause knockback
    • Sleeping enemies take 50% more damage and 50% less knockback on wakeup
    • Sleeping enemies will fall at 25% of their fall speed
    • Flower ticks for 1.1% per 0.5 seconds (total: 17.6%)
    • Enemies will not be aware of what effect the PK Flash will have
    • Can cancel setting up the PK Flash into shield, dodge, or PSI Magnet
    • Not choosing an added effect will give it a random one
  • High startup
  • Average startup to detonate
  • Low endlag
  • Transcendent priority
  • High shield damage
  • Low shieldstun
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers: 48.6%
  • Approximate kill time: 130%

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Oh boy, another crazy idea. Basically, think of this as a mine you can place anywhere on the battlefield, whether it be on ground, in the air, off the stage, or right on top of Ness. After a time controlling the PK Flash's location, you are then able to put an added bonus to the "mine" known only to you, and not the opponent. After this, you detonate it by holding down Down-B a second time, doing the PK Flash and the effect you chose.

Alternatively, you can detonate early without setting up an effect by doing Down-B during the setup process. This will immediately detonate it and give you a random effect to work with. These effects are extremely powerful, coming in the form of a long sleep, weakening all enemy attacks by 25%, or a very harmful flower debuff, forcing the opponent to spam attacks, giving you an opening. Another special way to work around the setting up process is to shield cancel, dodge cancel, or even cancel with PSI Magnet, giving you many different avenues of defending yourself throughout this lengthy set up process.

The special thing about this in regards to the PP meter is that setting up the Flash itself costs nothing, so you can easily fake out opponents with immediate detonations however many times you want, potentially forcing them into a bad position you can take advantage of. However, the detonation itself is very expensive in PSI, the most expensive move due to the sheer power, kill potential, and utility of the move.

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Wow, this took some thinking and doing, despite it being only five moves. Hopefully whoever actually sees my threads enjoys these absolutely insane ideas I came up with. Here's to Lucas coming up soon.
 
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MERPIS

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
:GCU::GCB: Up-B:

  • PK Thunder: Ness creates ball lightning that is freely controllable by him for a short period. The ball can hit enemies and goes through items. Ball lightning has snaking lightning behind it that will barely stun the enemy, but will not stop the PK Thunder. Can aim the PK Thunder at Ness to shoot himself opposite the direction the ball lightning hit him, heavily damaging anything in his path. Pressing Up-B again will immediately stop PK Thunder and give movement back to Ness. Using this in midair will cause helplessness after PK Thunder hits an enemy or it is stopped manually
    • (Note: Banking ability of PK Thunder would be equal to Lucas's currently tighter turning PK Thunder)
    • Costs 30 PSI
      • Hitting an enemy or Ness will take away an extra 95 PSI
      • Hitting an enemy with the snaking trail of the PK Thunder will not cost extra PSI
    • Snaking trail of PK Thunder is about 1/2 the distance of Final Destination
    • PK Thunder is immune to absorption, destruction, and reflection
    • PK Missile is unable to be countered
    • PK Missile hitting a wall will cause an automatic tech, regardless of damage percentage of Ness
  • Above average startup
  • High endlag
  • Extremely high priority on PK Missile
  • Low shield damage on PK Thunder
    • No shield damage on PK Thunder trail
    • Guaranteed shield break on PK Missile
  • Average shieldstun on PK Thunder
    • Low shieldstun on PK Thunder trail
  • Knockback for all hitboxes is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • PK Thunder: 17.0%
    • PK Thunder trail: 1.3% per 0.8 seconds
    • PK Missile early: 29.8%
    • PK Missile late: 22.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • PK Thunder: 280%
    • PK Missile early: 50%
    • PK Missile late: 65%
No no no no no
NO NO NO
We need an actual recovery not this horsecrap of a move, give us Ness's teleport as a recovery, as bland as it is, I'd rather it over PK Thunder any day
 

Necro'lic

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
653
No no no no no
NO NO NO
We need an actual recovery not this horsecrap of a move, give us Ness's teleport as a recovery, as bland as it is, I'd rather it over PK Thunder any day
Not sure why you'd rather not have a projectile, a shield breaker, a counter breaker, and an easy harass tool over a non damaging teleport.

I'm very confused.

EDIT: And I forgot that it would be as controllable as Lucas's PK Thunder, so a lot of the points I make are even better than his current PK Thunder anyway.
 
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Specs64z

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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Location
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No no no no no
NO NO NO
We need an actual recovery not this horsecrap of a move, give us Ness's teleport as a recovery, as bland as it is, I'd rather it over PK Thunder any day
Ness’s directional airdodge is already so absurd it might as well be a teleport recovery.

In response to the op, this redesign is certainly unique, but it’s also very extra. The PP meter, while a fun EarthBound reference, is a lot to manage and doesn’t really capture how PSI worked in EarthBound. A regenerating resource meter would be awesome on, say, a Golden Sun character though. EarthBound is itself a very simplistic game, so managing resources to that extent doesn’t really capture the spirit of EarthBound.

As for PSI magnet being a shield-b move, that would make it unusable in the air so it loses a lot of it’s new functionality as a DJC and combo starter into kill confirms.

Even though I’m not a huge fan, this redesign idea is certainly interesting to consider.
 

Necro'lic

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
653
Ness’s directional airdodge is already so absurd it might as well be a teleport recovery.

In response to the op, this redesign is certainly unique, but it’s also very extra. The PP meter, while a fun EarthBound reference, is a lot to manage and doesn’t really capture how PSI worked in EarthBound. A regenerating resource meter would be awesome on, say, a Golden Sun character though. EarthBound is itself a very simplistic game, so managing resources to that extent doesn’t really capture the spirit of EarthBound.

As for PSI magnet being a shield-b move, that would make it unusable in the air so it loses a lot of it’s new functionality as a DJC and combo starter into kill confirms.

Even though I’m not a huge fan, this redesign idea is certainly interesting to consider.
Thank you for commenting btw.

So, I can definitely see how this resource management could be daunting, but keep in mind that it's mostly in place to stop the spamming of these "extra" moves with their extra functionality. You may have noticed that almost all the moves are above 100 PSI to use, meaning they, by their very nature, require you to wait to do again, while the others less than 100 PSI you can spam a tad bit more. In short, I don't think the PSI management is the main point of this redesign as much as it is the extra, borderline overpowered functionality given to the other moves that is counteracted by the PSI meter.

As for PSI magnet being a shield-b move, that would make it unusable in the air
Yeah, I honestly don't see a reason Shield-B couldn't be programmed to be used in the air. I'm pretty sure the only reason people say it can't is because the only example, Inkling's Ink Refill, requires you to be on the ground to use it, similar to Pikmin Pluck from Olimar. So I treated the new PSI Magnet as if you could use it in the air, so no functionality is removed (and some is even added in this rework).
 
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Specs64z

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Just a quick note is that the changes to PKT wouldn’t work how you’re envisioning. The projectile beats everything now... but you’ve reintroduced it’s most critical flaw. Ness would be more vulnerable than ever since the projectile could just be stuffed out almost immediately upon using it. All you have to do is hurl yourself at Ness and he dies. There’s little fear of being hit by PKT2 because you have so much more time to snuff it out compared to before.
This new recovery, while deadlier than ever, is actually more vulnerable than before, not less. Maybe that was your intention, but based on all it’s other buffs I doubt it was.
 

Necro'lic

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
653
Just a quick note is that the changes to PKT wouldn’t work how you’re envisioning. The projectile beats everything now... but you’ve reintroduced it’s most critical flaw. Ness would be more vulnerable than ever since the projectile could just be stuffed out almost immediately upon using it. All you have to do is hurl yourself at Ness and he dies. There’s little fear of being hit by PKT2 because you have so much more time to snuff it out compared to before.
This new recovery, while deadlier than ever, is actually more vulnerable than before, not less. Maybe that was your intention, but based on all it’s other buffs I doubt it was.
That was intended, because despite that critical flaw being back, it would require foresight to what Ness was doing, as well as being close to him when he attempts to recovery, because literally every single option other than getting hit by the PK Thunder will not work anymore, AND he has Lucas levels of turning control on it. Thus, having the vulnerability period at the start return seems like a fair enough trade, especially when you realize that the new PSI Magnet's controllable nature allows for horizontal recovery.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that due to the tighter turning, they would actually have less time to intercept the PKT if they aren't right on top of you, further illustrating my intention.
 
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