Eagleye893
Smash Champion
ALL SIDE COMMENTS AND LISTS OF INFORMATION ON A MOVE ARE LABELED WITH +++, ++*, +**, or ***, BASED ON THEIR RELIABILITY. AN UNRELIABLE FOLLOWUP OR TACTIC RECEIVES A ***, WHILE A HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ONE RECEIVES +++.
Basically, I'm assuming on this thread that you know every technique discovered or listed by EB360 and Ref in their Ness guides and expanding on moves and different situations Ness is faced with. This will, hopefully, help to clarify where ness excells and how to maximize outcomes in certain situations.
Because I am currently busy, I'll recommend that everyone refresh themselves with both EB360's many techniques listed on his thread and Ref's general coverage of Ness.
I'll post stuff whenever I can, and update when I get the chance. But currently, let's start with some methods of playing in certain situations.
SUPER UPDATE: NOW INCLUDING INDIVIDUAL MOVE SEGMENTS!
I found it necessary. There are many more move-specific tactical ideas that I have than I do general ideas. For example, dtilt, PKjump (proper heights and usage times), PKT (when to use it to recover and when not to use it to recover... also how to mindgame recovering with it in a safe way), FH PKfire ideas (you have uair, nair, fair on landing, and on hit of PKfire, AD > dash > (other) works very well), etc.
I'll also avoid the usage of quoting things using the [ quote _] thing, because boxes are obnoxious. It also makes it much easier to just organize useful information and credit findings/ideas/thoughts.
Also, there will be this other section that I call, Jump Specialties, which will go over the tricks and proper using of FH, SH, DJ, and Jump-Canceling type of moves/effects. I've been claiming that FH aerials are so great, but haven't truly backed up all my reasoning. I'll lay all of the reasons out in the next couple of days, seeing as I have absolutely nothing going on in the first few weeks of school (except chess team and other activities).
Jump Specialties
FH:
FH Aerials vs. SH Aerials --
Dair:
Fair:
Bair:
Nair:
Uair:
FH PK Fire -- (see PK Fire subsection)
FH AD --
MOVELIST
SPECIAL:
PK Fire:
FH PKfire tricks --
PK Jump --
Ledge Pressure --
PKT:
How to Recover... properly --
Getting the PKT hit --
PKT Shield "Scraping" -- When you direct your PKT into your opponent's shield, you make it go along the edge of it rather than directly into it. This allows the tail to continue to hit their shield for an amount of time and, possibly, do a shield poke after a bit of weakening.
PKT2 Tricks --
(What I call the) Peel-Between PKT2: Could mean two different things, but basically encompasses the same idea of bringing a PKT between yourself and your opponent. What this does is, if your opponent is close enough, your PKT2 will at least hit their shield. If you do everything in the best way possible, you can PKT scrape against their shield (see above) and cause your PKT2 to hit your opponent. If you want, you can not bother hitting your opponent and just fly across the stage to safety (few characters can punish it... the ones that can are pit, rob, and maybe some other characters, but it depends on projectile speed). It's safe, but requires good PKT control... which WiFi doesn't allow me to have 90% of the time (I did it once or twice, but not much more). Also, this often depends on WHEN your opponent gets near you. You can't just go out and say HAHAHAH STAND RIGHT THERE WHILE I DO THIS! because it won't work. You have to bait your opponent in with a crazy loop of your PKT that also threatens just hitting them. It's more "mindgame" than actual technique, but if you can manipulate your opponent well with PKT, this should be an okay thing to do every now and then.
Cut-Short DJ: When you are offstage and in danger of an edgeguard by your opponent, it is possible to, with correct timing, planning, and spacing, to fake using your DJ when going up by just using PKT-->PKT2 shortly after. This won't catch a lot of people, but for those that risk a lot, it's a near instant kill. Going directly for the ledge isn't recommended, because you can get edgehogged (go for just landing on stage, and if you aren't in range to do that, then this strategy wasn't fit for consideration in the first place; KNOW IF YOU CAN RECOVER SAFELY FIRST! Never risk too much). This is one of the things I do very often, as I know both how to time PKT2 well and the proper spacing of baiting my opponent so that they can't get at me. This is good to do now and then, but not a lot. The safest option is often to just DJ with an airdodge (proper timing) to land on the stage. Fair can often get over-taken by some things that you wouldn't normally expect.
On-Ledge PKT2 -- when standing on the ledge, as many people know, you can PKT2 in an upward direction as well as straight forward. It's not as useful as other techniques... there's too much guessing and it's safer just to try and go for a PKT hit than to risk flinging yourself in for a hit you might not make.
PKT Ledgedrop --
Off-Top Kill --
PK Flash:
PSImag:
Movement Techniques --
Tricks to Absorption --
When to Wind --
Magnet Lag Cancel -- get into the habit of using Jump out of absorption. If you can't just roll back. Jumping allows much more to happen (chain PSImag?!?!)
Crazy Ledge Thing -- Jump from hanging on ledge, properly time a PSImag after the jump, B-Reverse it, then release to regrab the ledge. Can absorb some stuff with this, maybe ledgeguard, maybe even waste an opponent's invincibility at a start of a match... it worked for me once... xD
NON-SPECIAL ATTACKS:
(organized by jab/tilts/dashattack, smashes, aerials)
Jab:
Ftilt:
Dtilt:
2x-Usage -- two quick dtilts to a followup move. Often, it is swift enough to allow other moves, such as grab, to get in without a problem. Other times, the second hit is just too much to make it worth the time. The two hits increases tripping chance (slightly...), and potentially raises damage given.
1x-Usage -- if you are quick with movement, just throwing one out will be quick enough to beat out most people's reaction times, so you have an okay time with a followup. Dtilt does very little damage, and the spacing is fairly short, but this works sometimes. Grabs are fairly easy to follow this up with, but a well-trained opponent knows what to do.
Dtilt Flurry -- when your opponent least expects it, this will rack 12-18 damage until your opponent can properly throw in a move to get you out. After a little damage, you can try and shield to see how they respond and from there either grab, use an aerial, spotdodge, or usmash (tilts may be less suggested, but you can do it...). Dtilt makes your opponent think quick, because each instant you rack more and more damage. If you're lucky, your opponent will mess up and you get the free percent. If you aren't lucky, you get a fairly even trade-off of percent (you might need to DI well in this situation though)
Utilt:
Utilt > Grab -- on some characters, this will work from 0% due to a larger hurtbox... I believe. I'm not 100% sure, but lots of people that I've played were unable to avoid the grab... maybe they could attack, but decided not to... I never found that out. *** SOMEONE TEST THIS!!!***
Dash Attack:
Advice (General) -- this move has great range, and also great starting speed. The range is the reason I like this move; if you know where the last two hits come out with respect to ness, you can catch your opponent off guard, just on the end of lag, or just on the edge of their shield, and get some damage and followup opportunity. The fact that it's a quick move helps to punish some opponents who have slightly laggier moves.
Dash attack can go well... It has it's negatives, but it's speed and range make it worth looking at.
Fsmash:
Usmash:
Dsmash:
Fair:
Bair:
Landing with Bair -- If you are great at spacing it, using bair on landing is insanely powerful. The key to this is knowing bair VERY well.
Going down, you want to be doing 2 things: FF'ing, and moving away from your opponent (you can judge where to place the bair... this can be used to pressure shield VERY well). In perfect execution, your Bair comes out and hits your opponent at their feet just before you land. When you land, you will slide away slightly and undergo landing lag. The thing about bair is that it's shield-stun (? maybe improper term?) is great, it pushes your opponent back quite a bit on their shielding, and it does great damage and has a great hitbox to poke at shields. You can almost continually weaken your opponent's shield until you poke with a bair on the top of their shield. Bair landing lag isn't insanely long, so you get up and can react with a fair amount of time.
Landing with bair is great if you can space and time perfectly. A sourspotted bair WILL NOT PRODUCE GOOD RESULTS! You must hit with the electric kick.
DJ > Bair -- If done right, it will hit any character no matter how tall they are... except some if they crouch. The DJ must be executed very near landing or else you will miss some characters. On hitting the opponent, however, you won't be able to follow up as well unless at very lucky percents where bairs combo into each other somehow. Again, YOU NEED TO SPACE AND TIME THIS RIGHT! Sourspot bair will work, but it's just not worth wasting a DJ for.
Fall-through platform > Bair -- Since bair is great with spacing, this works well overall. It times nicely on most platforms, and you can adjust how and in what position you drop from to produce the best results.
Because Bair does massive damage and knockback, you need to know how to hit with it more. It will give ness a great advantage in any situation when used correctly.
Uair:
Landing Uair --
PK Jump Followup --
FH Dair Followup --
FH PKfire Followup --
Dair:
Nair:
Getting a Low Knock-Back Angle -- I don't know if this was just me... but when hitting the opponent with my back facing to them, it OFTEN sent them at a downward direction. Either that or if I hit with Ness' hand as he spun around. Can someone see if there is any easier way to get a low knockback angle with Nair? That' help for gimps.
FH Nair > ANY AERIAL!!! -- Great... even Dair does well... DO THIS!!! It keeps you safe and you have mobility after using Nair to do lots of other things.
GRABS/THROWS:
How to Get the Grab:
Pivot Grab:
Dash Grab:
Standing/Shielding Grab:
Dthrow:
Fthrow:
Uthrow:
Bthrow(AKA, Kill Throw):
***********************NEW CATEGORY!!!!***************************
****************************************************************
****************************************************************
Thanks, Yink, for bringing this into conversation. MUCH APPRECIATED!
SPACING
This video is extremely good in showing the best estimation of all ness' hitboxes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eTHzbe-HBY
PLEASE LOOK AT THIS AT LEAST ONCE!! It'll show some weirdness in ness' hitboxes, but otherwise, you just have to have a feel for where you'll hit.
I'll list each item and provide blank bullet points to be filled in continually. I'll put in my ideas for each item right now, but I want to see everyone helping in this category. Some people have different ideas for describing the spacing than others.
PKT
-- Hitting yourself, The edge of the PKT head must connect to the electrical "aura" around ness.
-- Hitting opponents, just hit them
-- Tail, just have their hurtbox hit the tail.
-- ????
--
PKT2
-- Beginning hitbox hits in a large range around ness, and gradually gets smaller (near the ending, ness' body must contact the opponent's)
-- ???
--
--
PKfire
-- ??? (I can tell where, but I can DESCRIBE where)
--
--
--
--
PKflash
-- Uncharged, basically the image of the PKflash
-- Fully charged, between 1.4x and 2x the radius of the uncharged.
--
--
--
PSImag
-- Absorbs a small distance outside of the blue area.
-- Wind is about 1.5x the radius of the appearance of the blue area.
--
--
Jab
--??
--
--
--
Ftilt
-- about bat distance for center. (possibly less; haven't played in a while)
-- near body, but about jab distance horizontally and slightly above top of hat for upwards slanted.
-- down low.... similar to dtilt, but less horizontal range (at least I think...)
--
Dtilt
-- Jab distance forward, but low... (?)
-- behind ness, just barely behind (doesn't hit if the opponent isn't super close)
-- ???
--
Utilt
-- Short horizontal distance
-- About another head of ness' above his head (approximation)
--
--
Dash Attack
-- First hit is very near and quick (I say about ftilt distance from ness)
-- Second hit is somewhat far (I say either usmash distance or dsmash distance away from ness...)
-- Third hit is VERY far away (none of ness' attacks hit that far, IMO)
--???
Fsmash
--
--
--
--
Usmash
--
--
--
--
Dsmash
--
--
--
--
--
Standing Grab
--
--
--
--
--
Pivot Grab
--
--
--
--
Dash Grab
--
--
--
--
--
Uair
-- Lots of distance behind ness (not nearly bair or fair distance, but it hits far away for it's opening speed)
--
--
--
Nair
-- Some distance away from ness' body at beginning (stays closeby)
-- Ness' body for sourspot.
--
--
Fair
-- Huge distance in front when retreating
-- Meh distance standstill
-- not so good distance when moving forward
-- ???
Bair
-- far behind ness' body (it is like laying his body out in midair.
--
--
--
Dair
-- big area below ness' body and including the below ness' head for spike hitbox, but sourspot is ness' body (exluding head, of course)
--
--
--
***********Based on a new Idea, I've created a new category: Essentials.
^Self explanatory, but I felt it was needed.
ESSENTIALS:
+++ PKT (Methods of use on and offstage)
++* FH PKfire
My summary of it:
++*Good/Great when it hits
++*Able to get good followup options from it
+++uair (if frame perfect)
++*nair (always)
++*fair (first few hits)
+++airdodge
+++DJ all aerials
++*DJ pkfire (catch ppl off guard + followup a previous pillar trap)
+**PKjump (only if you miss... not recommended***Good opponents and higher tier characters destroy it OoS. (As stated before by others, snake's dash attack, MK's upb, marth's upb, etc.)
???
*************************Randomly thought****************
Not-So-Essentials
++++++++++++DTilt Madness...
Approaching:
+++ (others say ++* or +**) PKjump:
Aggressive:
++*/+** [color="black"(aggressive is different...)[/color] PKjump:
[quote="Eagleye893, post: 11206876"]Okay, to focus on aggressive play, which most players often lack, I had best start off with something and everyone can add. We are starting discussion first on approach/agressive style options. BE SURE TO NOTE ANY POTENTIAL RISK WITH APPROACHING WITH SUCH MOVES!!!
Okay, PKjump, something I've recently been doing, has helped very much in getting close up to an enemy with lower risk.
If you use it at the max height of a short hop, you can easily use any aerial except dair before you land (must be very near the Mac height of SH). This allows for a landing uair to protect from many powerful punishment options up close by giving you less landing lag. Fair is just for if you misspace your pkjump, and mainly to back off if you are too far from your opponent. If you are closer to your opponent, bair will hit instantly before going on the ground and place itself greatly for poking shields and just spacing in general. Nair is for speed, and is less useful than any other option due to it's lesser range. Airdodge doesn't matter for attacking, but it helps almost every time if you expect a followup OoS from your opponent. You get dtilt and ftilt and jab if you do it right, but airdodge downwards in front of your opponent isnt a great idea... Grabs =
(all options listed require you to have properly executed pkjump, meaning you use the launch forward.) Fullhopping allows you to use aerials beforehand and also use pkjump at different timings and heights to maximize options on landing.
--problems with PKjump as approach:
• bad execution means that you are in trouble, and your opponent gets free hits.
• spacing is slightly weird with different heights
• getting the perfect shorthop height for bair to work every time is difficult
• you go in with a loss of your DJ (MK can abuse this, but if you space well you won't put yourself into a situation where you can be punished like mad... The aerials protect well, and the bolt either ensures that you get a hit with putting pillar up first or provides enough shield stun to halt an extreme range of punishment)
Another thing with PKjump to note is that if you do hit with the bolt and create a pillar, you are well off. Uair will hit fairly frequently and provide perfect placement on the ground for followup, fair hits almost every time, nair gets people just getting out of the pillar, etc. The pillar hit is win for PKjump. If executed perfectly at low percents, you get a near assured 30%.
--basically no risk for hitting with pillar... Maybe marth, but you can airdodge down.[/QUOTE]
Defensive play:
--General:
Offstage Recovery/Defensive Strategies
++*/+**PSImag Wavebounce:
I don't feel like finding where I've said this before, but I'll put up one of my vids that could help in explaining this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPsXBhWVVis
Basically, you are approaching the stage and your opponent is coming after you. You don't have enough time to just move backwards and it might end up getting you into a worse situation... although it mostly won't. You have the option of using your PSImagnet to reverse your momentum and have a greater chance of avoiding some attack that your opponent is throwing at you. Instead of potentially placing yourself further below the ledge with using an aerial, you keep a height somewhat near where you were before. The wind from the release of the PSImag can often push back an opponent just enough to keep you safe, but you are in trouble of other stuff if your opponent is very close.
==Drawbacks:
+** You go further away from the ledge. Because of this, only use the technique when you are fairly close or if you have your DJ still able to be used. You need to also ensure that you can make it back to the stage.
*** Not an attack... Sometimes makes it easier for an opponent to just charge forward and get you with something.
*** Only for rare occasions. Do this often and you will get yourself gimped.
Edgeguarding
++* PKT Edgeguards:
This WILL include specific usages of moves which i recommend highly, but this list must wait a while.
LIST OF CONRIBUTIONS
--Overall PKT strategy:
--FHpkFire:
-- Yo-Yos:
**LATER
As I posted in the NGD, I wanted to make something like this for a while. Trips said go for it, so that is enough incentive to start the thread.
Basically, I'm assuming on this thread that you know every technique discovered or listed by EB360 and Ref in their Ness guides and expanding on moves and different situations Ness is faced with. This will, hopefully, help to clarify where ness excells and how to maximize outcomes in certain situations.
Because I am currently busy, I'll recommend that everyone refresh themselves with both EB360's many techniques listed on his thread and Ref's general coverage of Ness.
I'll post stuff whenever I can, and update when I get the chance. But currently, let's start with some methods of playing in certain situations.
SUPER UPDATE: NOW INCLUDING INDIVIDUAL MOVE SEGMENTS!
I found it necessary. There are many more move-specific tactical ideas that I have than I do general ideas. For example, dtilt, PKjump (proper heights and usage times), PKT (when to use it to recover and when not to use it to recover... also how to mindgame recovering with it in a safe way), FH PKfire ideas (you have uair, nair, fair on landing, and on hit of PKfire, AD > dash > (other) works very well), etc.
I'll also avoid the usage of quoting things using the [ quote _] thing, because boxes are obnoxious. It also makes it much easier to just organize useful information and credit findings/ideas/thoughts.
Also, there will be this other section that I call, Jump Specialties, which will go over the tricks and proper using of FH, SH, DJ, and Jump-Canceling type of moves/effects. I've been claiming that FH aerials are so great, but haven't truly backed up all my reasoning. I'll lay all of the reasons out in the next couple of days, seeing as I have absolutely nothing going on in the first few weeks of school (except chess team and other activities).
Jump Specialties
FH:
FH Aerials vs. SH Aerials --
Dair:
Fair:
Bair:
Nair:
Uair:
FH AD --
MOVELIST
SPECIAL:
PK Fire:
FH PKfire tricks --
PK Jump --
Ledge Pressure --
PKT:
How to Recover... properly --
Getting the PKT hit --
PKT Shield "Scraping" -- When you direct your PKT into your opponent's shield, you make it go along the edge of it rather than directly into it. This allows the tail to continue to hit their shield for an amount of time and, possibly, do a shield poke after a bit of weakening.
PKT2 Tricks --
(What I call the) Peel-Between PKT2: Could mean two different things, but basically encompasses the same idea of bringing a PKT between yourself and your opponent. What this does is, if your opponent is close enough, your PKT2 will at least hit their shield. If you do everything in the best way possible, you can PKT scrape against their shield (see above) and cause your PKT2 to hit your opponent. If you want, you can not bother hitting your opponent and just fly across the stage to safety (few characters can punish it... the ones that can are pit, rob, and maybe some other characters, but it depends on projectile speed). It's safe, but requires good PKT control... which WiFi doesn't allow me to have 90% of the time (I did it once or twice, but not much more). Also, this often depends on WHEN your opponent gets near you. You can't just go out and say HAHAHAH STAND RIGHT THERE WHILE I DO THIS! because it won't work. You have to bait your opponent in with a crazy loop of your PKT that also threatens just hitting them. It's more "mindgame" than actual technique, but if you can manipulate your opponent well with PKT, this should be an okay thing to do every now and then.
Cut-Short DJ: When you are offstage and in danger of an edgeguard by your opponent, it is possible to, with correct timing, planning, and spacing, to fake using your DJ when going up by just using PKT-->PKT2 shortly after. This won't catch a lot of people, but for those that risk a lot, it's a near instant kill. Going directly for the ledge isn't recommended, because you can get edgehogged (go for just landing on stage, and if you aren't in range to do that, then this strategy wasn't fit for consideration in the first place; KNOW IF YOU CAN RECOVER SAFELY FIRST! Never risk too much). This is one of the things I do very often, as I know both how to time PKT2 well and the proper spacing of baiting my opponent so that they can't get at me. This is good to do now and then, but not a lot. The safest option is often to just DJ with an airdodge (proper timing) to land on the stage. Fair can often get over-taken by some things that you wouldn't normally expect.
On-Ledge PKT2 -- when standing on the ledge, as many people know, you can PKT2 in an upward direction as well as straight forward. It's not as useful as other techniques... there's too much guessing and it's safer just to try and go for a PKT hit than to risk flinging yourself in for a hit you might not make.
Off-Top Kill --
PK Flash:
PSImag:
Movement Techniques --
Tricks to Absorption --
When to Wind --
Magnet Lag Cancel -- get into the habit of using Jump out of absorption. If you can't just roll back. Jumping allows much more to happen (chain PSImag?!?!)
Crazy Ledge Thing -- Jump from hanging on ledge, properly time a PSImag after the jump, B-Reverse it, then release to regrab the ledge. Can absorb some stuff with this, maybe ledgeguard, maybe even waste an opponent's invincibility at a start of a match... it worked for me once... xD
NON-SPECIAL ATTACKS:
(organized by jab/tilts/dashattack, smashes, aerials)
Jab:
Ftilt:
Dtilt:
2x-Usage -- two quick dtilts to a followup move. Often, it is swift enough to allow other moves, such as grab, to get in without a problem. Other times, the second hit is just too much to make it worth the time. The two hits increases tripping chance (slightly...), and potentially raises damage given.
1x-Usage -- if you are quick with movement, just throwing one out will be quick enough to beat out most people's reaction times, so you have an okay time with a followup. Dtilt does very little damage, and the spacing is fairly short, but this works sometimes. Grabs are fairly easy to follow this up with, but a well-trained opponent knows what to do.
Dtilt Flurry -- when your opponent least expects it, this will rack 12-18 damage until your opponent can properly throw in a move to get you out. After a little damage, you can try and shield to see how they respond and from there either grab, use an aerial, spotdodge, or usmash (tilts may be less suggested, but you can do it...). Dtilt makes your opponent think quick, because each instant you rack more and more damage. If you're lucky, your opponent will mess up and you get the free percent. If you aren't lucky, you get a fairly even trade-off of percent (you might need to DI well in this situation though)
Utilt:
Utilt > Grab -- on some characters, this will work from 0% due to a larger hurtbox... I believe. I'm not 100% sure, but lots of people that I've played were unable to avoid the grab... maybe they could attack, but decided not to... I never found that out. *** SOMEONE TEST THIS!!!***
Dash Attack:
Advice (General) -- this move has great range, and also great starting speed. The range is the reason I like this move; if you know where the last two hits come out with respect to ness, you can catch your opponent off guard, just on the end of lag, or just on the edge of their shield, and get some damage and followup opportunity. The fact that it's a quick move helps to punish some opponents who have slightly laggier moves.
Dash attack can go well... It has it's negatives, but it's speed and range make it worth looking at.
Fsmash:
Usmash:
Dsmash:
Fair:
Bair:
Landing with Bair -- If you are great at spacing it, using bair on landing is insanely powerful. The key to this is knowing bair VERY well.
Going down, you want to be doing 2 things: FF'ing, and moving away from your opponent (you can judge where to place the bair... this can be used to pressure shield VERY well). In perfect execution, your Bair comes out and hits your opponent at their feet just before you land. When you land, you will slide away slightly and undergo landing lag. The thing about bair is that it's shield-stun (? maybe improper term?) is great, it pushes your opponent back quite a bit on their shielding, and it does great damage and has a great hitbox to poke at shields. You can almost continually weaken your opponent's shield until you poke with a bair on the top of their shield. Bair landing lag isn't insanely long, so you get up and can react with a fair amount of time.
Landing with bair is great if you can space and time perfectly. A sourspotted bair WILL NOT PRODUCE GOOD RESULTS! You must hit with the electric kick.
DJ > Bair -- If done right, it will hit any character no matter how tall they are... except some if they crouch. The DJ must be executed very near landing or else you will miss some characters. On hitting the opponent, however, you won't be able to follow up as well unless at very lucky percents where bairs combo into each other somehow. Again, YOU NEED TO SPACE AND TIME THIS RIGHT! Sourspot bair will work, but it's just not worth wasting a DJ for.
Fall-through platform > Bair -- Since bair is great with spacing, this works well overall. It times nicely on most platforms, and you can adjust how and in what position you drop from to produce the best results.
Because Bair does massive damage and knockback, you need to know how to hit with it more. It will give ness a great advantage in any situation when used correctly.
Uair:
Landing Uair --
PK Jump Followup --
FH Dair Followup --
FH PKfire Followup --
Dair:
Nair:
Getting a Low Knock-Back Angle -- I don't know if this was just me... but when hitting the opponent with my back facing to them, it OFTEN sent them at a downward direction. Either that or if I hit with Ness' hand as he spun around. Can someone see if there is any easier way to get a low knockback angle with Nair? That' help for gimps.
FH Nair > ANY AERIAL!!! -- Great... even Dair does well... DO THIS!!! It keeps you safe and you have mobility after using Nair to do lots of other things.
GRABS/THROWS:
How to Get the Grab:
Pivot Grab:
Dash Grab:
Standing/Shielding Grab:
Dthrow:
Fthrow:
Uthrow:
Bthrow(AKA, Kill Throw):
***********************NEW CATEGORY!!!!***************************
****************************************************************
****************************************************************
Thanks, Yink, for bringing this into conversation. MUCH APPRECIATED!
SPACING
^Original Proposal. xD
This video is extremely good in showing the best estimation of all ness' hitboxes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eTHzbe-HBY
PLEASE LOOK AT THIS AT LEAST ONCE!! It'll show some weirdness in ness' hitboxes, but otherwise, you just have to have a feel for where you'll hit.
I'll list each item and provide blank bullet points to be filled in continually. I'll put in my ideas for each item right now, but I want to see everyone helping in this category. Some people have different ideas for describing the spacing than others.
PKT
-- Hitting yourself, The edge of the PKT head must connect to the electrical "aura" around ness.
-- Hitting opponents, just hit them
-- Tail, just have their hurtbox hit the tail.
-- ????
--
-- Beginning hitbox hits in a large range around ness, and gradually gets smaller (near the ending, ness' body must contact the opponent's)
-- ???
--
--
-- ??? (I can tell where, but I can DESCRIBE where)
--
--
--
--
-- Uncharged, basically the image of the PKflash
-- Fully charged, between 1.4x and 2x the radius of the uncharged.
--
--
--
-- Absorbs a small distance outside of the blue area.
-- Wind is about 1.5x the radius of the appearance of the blue area.
--
--
Jab
--??
--
--
--
-- about bat distance for center. (possibly less; haven't played in a while)
-- near body, but about jab distance horizontally and slightly above top of hat for upwards slanted.
-- down low.... similar to dtilt, but less horizontal range (at least I think...)
--
-- Jab distance forward, but low... (?)
-- behind ness, just barely behind (doesn't hit if the opponent isn't super close)
-- ???
--
-- Short horizontal distance
-- About another head of ness' above his head (approximation)
--
--
-- First hit is very near and quick (I say about ftilt distance from ness)
-- Second hit is somewhat far (I say either usmash distance or dsmash distance away from ness...)
-- Third hit is VERY far away (none of ness' attacks hit that far, IMO)
--???
Fsmash
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
Standing Grab
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
Uair
-- Lots of distance behind ness (not nearly bair or fair distance, but it hits far away for it's opening speed)
--
--
--
-- Some distance away from ness' body at beginning (stays closeby)
-- Ness' body for sourspot.
--
--
-- Huge distance in front when retreating
-- Meh distance standstill
-- not so good distance when moving forward
-- ???
-- far behind ness' body (it is like laying his body out in midair.
--
--
--
-- big area below ness' body and including the below ness' head for spike hitbox, but sourspot is ness' body (exluding head, of course)
--
--
--
***********Based on a new Idea, I've created a new category: Essentials.
^Self explanatory, but I felt it was needed.
ESSENTIALS:
+++ PKT (Methods of use on and offstage)
General Usage:
Summary, derived from Kenny's post and other stuff:
+++ Tail is infinite priority and can often lead into hitting with the head or PKT2.
Tail specifics:
+++ Tail sets off snake's nades, and, if done right, allows you to direct the head at him.
+++ Tail can nullify or destroy an opponent's second jump
+++ Based on last, you can restrict an opponent's movement after popping them up with dair/uair/whatever and loop around them to make a near inescapable PKT2
++* Tail stops pikmin from traveling (Yellow are exception)
*** Can give extra percentage back to an opposing ness/lucas
+** Can charge up a bucket to full if looped correctly (can be +++ if teams)
+++ PKT kill off top can happen fairly easily. (I've done it so many times against friends and snake mains, who wish to go as high as possible to avoid dair and other shenanigans offstage)
-- Tips to that: Against a snake, I say the best way is to look for when they DJ or whatever or when they get fairly close to the stage. Initiate PKT slowly afterwards (You want to have it just below the snake's height just in case he airdodges so that you can loop back around). If he continues up, you are getting the advantage; the higher he goes, the more likely of a kill and the safer you are upon the canceling of your PKT (by time lapse or by snake connecting with the head).
+++ Juggle wins! (I often get a hit from dthrow, because people don't expect it when I vary my moves well)
+++ PKT2 is one of the most reliable, quick-kill moves in the game, being able to kill nearly every character at or before 80%.
+** The ending lag is VERY slow. This is only relieved by jumping up to land on the ground or grabbing the ledge immediately after canceling the PKT, but both involve some risk.
*** Terrible at close range.
???
Great synapsis...
Summary, derived from Kenny's post and other stuff:
+++ Tail is infinite priority and can often lead into hitting with the head or PKT2.
Tail specifics:
+++ Tail sets off snake's nades, and, if done right, allows you to direct the head at him.
+++ Tail can nullify or destroy an opponent's second jump
+++ Based on last, you can restrict an opponent's movement after popping them up with dair/uair/whatever and loop around them to make a near inescapable PKT2
++* Tail stops pikmin from traveling (Yellow are exception)
*** Can give extra percentage back to an opposing ness/lucas
+** Can charge up a bucket to full if looped correctly (can be +++ if teams)
-- Tips to that: Against a snake, I say the best way is to look for when they DJ or whatever or when they get fairly close to the stage. Initiate PKT slowly afterwards (You want to have it just below the snake's height just in case he airdodges so that you can loop back around). If he continues up, you are getting the advantage; the higher he goes, the more likely of a kill and the safer you are upon the canceling of your PKT (by time lapse or by snake connecting with the head).
+++ Juggle wins! (I often get a hit from dthrow, because people don't expect it when I vary my moves well)
+++ PKT2 is one of the most reliable, quick-kill moves in the game, being able to kill nearly every character at or before 80%.
+** The ending lag is VERY slow. This is only relieved by jumping up to land on the ground or grabbing the ledge immediately after canceling the PKT, but both involve some risk.
*** Terrible at close range.
???
++* FH PKfire
adding onto the FH PKF:
Full hop pk fire can be spammed offensively and defensively imo, because you have many options out of it. If they get hit, you can easily follow up with another dj pkf, or any other aerial (doing a dj pkf w/ landing lag and then following up with grab, bat, etc. may be better if its a character that has a hard time getting out). If they don't get hit, most opponents will assume you will lag, or that you will be punishable. You can do any of the aerials before landing to protect yourself, but you can also DJ aerial, don't forget that. If you don't want to do anything, it would be safe to just air dodge into the ground to cancel lag.
example, my usual approach/playstyle is to watch the opponent by fh pkfing while retreating, if I have a chance, after the fh pkf I will rising fair and hit them following up with a sour dair if plausible.
to conclude, FH pk fire should be something all ness players keep in mind and use because it is practically safe, you can easily shuffle and mind game with it. its my favorite damage racker.
Some people seem to get punished if the opponents catch on and they just dash shield and do a quick aerial to punish the lag from the pk fire, but if you space you are doing it while retreating, you should have enough time to either hit them back, or rising air dodge away.
my 2cent for todayI may add some more stuff later.
Due to this portion being a fairly essential aspect of any ness' play, I moved all posts from other sections to this one that concerned FH PKfire.Eagleye (my statement moved around) said:
My summary of it:
++*Good/Great when it hits
++*Able to get good followup options from it
+++uair (if frame perfect)
++*nair (always)
++*fair (first few hits)
+++airdodge
+++DJ all aerials
++*DJ pkfire (catch ppl off guard + followup a previous pillar trap)
+**PKjump (only if you miss... not recommended
???
*************************Randomly thought****************
Not-So-Essentials
++++++++++++DTilt Madness...
Eagleye893 said:
Approaching:
+++ (others say ++* or +**) PKjump:
Okay, to focus on aggressive play, which most players often lack, I had best start off with something and everyone can add. We are starting discussion first on approach/agressive style options. BE SURE TO NOTE ANY POTENTIAL RISK WITH APPROACHING WITH SUCH MOVES!!!
Okay, PKjump, something I've recently been doing, has helped very much in getting close up to an enemy with lower risk.
If you use it at the max height of a short hop, you can easily use any aerial except dair before you land (must be very near the Mac height of SH). This allows for a landing uair to protect from many powerful punishment options up close by giving you less landing lag. Fair is just for if you misspace your pkjump, and mainly to back off if you are too far from your opponent. If you are closer to your opponent, bair will hit instantly before going on the ground and place itself greatly for poking shields and just spacing in general. Nair is for speed, and is less useful than any other option due to it's lesser range. Airdodge doesn't matter for attacking, but it helps almost every time if you expect a followup OoS from your opponent. You get dtilt and ftilt and jab if you do it right, but airdodge downwards in front of your opponent isnt a great idea... Grabs =
--problems with PKjump as approach:
• bad execution means that you are in trouble, and your opponent gets free hits.
• spacing is slightly weird with different heights
• getting the perfect shorthop height for bair to work every time is difficult
• you go in with a loss of your DJ (MK can abuse this, but if you space well you won't put yourself into a situation where you can be punished like mad... The aerials protect well, and the bolt either ensures that you get a hit with putting pillar up first or provides enough shield stun to halt an extreme range of punishment)
Another thing with PKjump to note is that if you do hit with the bolt and create a pillar, you are well off. Uair will hit fairly frequently and provide perfect placement on the ground for followup, fair hits almost every time, nair gets people just getting out of the pillar, etc. The pillar hit is win for PKjump. If executed perfectly at low percents, you get a near assured 30%.
--basically no risk for hitting with pillar... Maybe marth, but you can airdodge down.
Aggressive:
++*/+** [color="black"(aggressive is different...)[/color] PKjump:
[quote="Eagleye893, post: 11206876"]Okay, to focus on aggressive play, which most players often lack, I had best start off with something and everyone can add. We are starting discussion first on approach/agressive style options. BE SURE TO NOTE ANY POTENTIAL RISK WITH APPROACHING WITH SUCH MOVES!!!
Okay, PKjump, something I've recently been doing, has helped very much in getting close up to an enemy with lower risk.
If you use it at the max height of a short hop, you can easily use any aerial except dair before you land (must be very near the Mac height of SH). This allows for a landing uair to protect from many powerful punishment options up close by giving you less landing lag. Fair is just for if you misspace your pkjump, and mainly to back off if you are too far from your opponent. If you are closer to your opponent, bair will hit instantly before going on the ground and place itself greatly for poking shields and just spacing in general. Nair is for speed, and is less useful than any other option due to it's lesser range. Airdodge doesn't matter for attacking, but it helps almost every time if you expect a followup OoS from your opponent. You get dtilt and ftilt and jab if you do it right, but airdodge downwards in front of your opponent isnt a great idea... Grabs =
(all options listed require you to have properly executed pkjump, meaning you use the launch forward.) Fullhopping allows you to use aerials beforehand and also use pkjump at different timings and heights to maximize options on landing.--problems with PKjump as approach:
• bad execution means that you are in trouble, and your opponent gets free hits.
• spacing is slightly weird with different heights
• getting the perfect shorthop height for bair to work every time is difficult
• you go in with a loss of your DJ (MK can abuse this, but if you space well you won't put yourself into a situation where you can be punished like mad... The aerials protect well, and the bolt either ensures that you get a hit with putting pillar up first or provides enough shield stun to halt an extreme range of punishment)
Another thing with PKjump to note is that if you do hit with the bolt and create a pillar, you are well off. Uair will hit fairly frequently and provide perfect placement on the ground for followup, fair hits almost every time, nair gets people just getting out of the pillar, etc. The pillar hit is win for PKjump. If executed perfectly at low percents, you get a near assured 30%.
--basically no risk for hitting with pillar... Maybe marth, but you can airdodge down.[/QUOTE]
Defensive play:
--General:
Anyone gonna do a wall of text any time soon? i will but first i gotta test it (as well as be able to do it ><) aerials after pk jumping.... mmmmmm....
Ok so i havn't tested this at all, but it would be fricken shweet if you can do it (i havn't tested because i can't do pk jump
THIS WOULD BE EPIC, especially with an uair for an unexpected kill, or maybe just a different way to follow up your pkjump approach. If someone could test this then that would be great.
Uses (if it works)
-switch up your game a bit so you aren't always doing the same thing
-like a das only the first aerial is a pkjump, so you can put a fair or something in and the knockback hit won't hit, but the first part will, leading to some combos maybe.
-good for setting up things
-unexpected kill with an uair
-???
Anyway, just wanted to throw it out there, please someone test this, i can't pk jump to save my life >.<
I'm bored so i'll add some more:
Defensive play: (dunno too much about this but i'll list what i do)
-Turnaround Pkfire is nice to use sometimes, and since it can be used anywhere out of a dash it can throw opponents off guard. To perform, use pk fire one way then immediately slam the control stick the other direction. Good move imo but not always the best.
-SH or FH aerial OoS is another good thing to use when under pressure, for the defensive player if they are in front of you I'd say to do a retreating sh fair, you'll space out okay for you to maybe land and catch em with a pk fire in their face or something, or maybe start running then turnaround pk fire or whatever.
-PKT, i don't really know the difference of this and aggressive play pkt, maybe land cancel the head more if you see the opponent dodging it or something.
-Spaced fair/retreating fair, a great way to keep them back and deal some damage. If they're on you, pull one of these out of your magician's hat and leave the bunny for later.
I think the most important thing for defensive play is to never leave yourself open, so use safe moves and keep your distance.
Edit again: since i don't feel like double posting, i figured out another good defensive technique, retreat into an RAR then fair. it covers you decently, and is fun to do
Offstage Recovery/Defensive Strategies
++*/+**PSImag Wavebounce:
I don't feel like finding where I've said this before, but I'll put up one of my vids that could help in explaining this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPsXBhWVVis
Basically, you are approaching the stage and your opponent is coming after you. You don't have enough time to just move backwards and it might end up getting you into a worse situation... although it mostly won't. You have the option of using your PSImagnet to reverse your momentum and have a greater chance of avoiding some attack that your opponent is throwing at you. Instead of potentially placing yourself further below the ledge with using an aerial, you keep a height somewhat near where you were before. The wind from the release of the PSImag can often push back an opponent just enough to keep you safe, but you are in trouble of other stuff if your opponent is very close.
==Drawbacks:
+** You go further away from the ledge. Because of this, only use the technique when you are fairly close or if you have your DJ still able to be used. You need to also ensure that you can make it back to the stage.
*** Not an attack... Sometimes makes it easier for an opponent to just charge forward and get you with something.
*** Only for rare occasions. Do this often and you will get yourself gimped.
Edgeguarding
++* PKT Edgeguards:
This WILL include specific usages of moves which i recommend highly, but this list must wait a while.
LIST OF CONRIBUTIONS
--Overall PKT strategy:
--FHpkFire:
--PKjump:adding onto the FH PKF:
Full hop pk fire can be spammed offensively and defensively imo, because you have many options out of it. If they get hit, you can easily follow up with another dj pkf, or any other aerial (doing a dj pkf w/ landing lag and then following up with grab, bat, etc. may be better if its a character that has a hard time getting out). If they don't get hit, most opponents will assume you will lag, or that you will be punishable. You can do any of the aerials before landing to protect yourself, but you can also DJ aerial, don't forget that. If you don't want to do anything, it would be safe to just air dodge into the ground to cancel lag.
example, my usual approach/playstyle is to watch the opponent by fh pkfing while retreating, if I have a chance, after the fh pkf I will rising fair and hit them following up with a sour dair if plausible.
to conclude, FH pk fire should be something all ness players keep in mind and use because it is practically safe, you can easily shuffle and mind game with it. its my favorite damage racker.
Some people seem to get punished if the opponents catch on and they just dash shield and do a quick aerial to punish the lag from the pk fire, but if you space you are doing it while retreating, you should have enough time to either hit them back, or rising air dodge away.
my 2cent for today
--PSImag Wavebounce:Okay, to focus on aggressive play, which most players often lack, I had best start off with something and everyone can add. We are starting discussion first on approach/agressive style options. BE SURE TO NOTE ANY POTENTIAL RISK WITH APPROACHING WITH SUCH MOVES!!!
Okay, PKjump, something I've recently been doing, has helped very much in getting close up to an enemy with lower risk.
If you use it at the max height of a short hop, you can easily use any aerial except dair before you land (must be very near the Mac height of SH). This allows for a landing uair to protect from many powerful punishment options up close by giving you less landing lag. Fair is just for if you misspace your pkjump, and mainly to back off if you are too far from your opponent. If you are closer to your opponent, bair will hit instantly before going on the ground and place itself greatly for poking shields and just spacing in general. Nair is for speed, and is less useful than any other option due to it's lesser range. Airdodge doesn't matter for attacking, but it helps almost every time if you expect a followup OoS from your opponent. You get dtilt and ftilt and jab if you do it right, but airdodge downwards in front of your opponent isnt a great idea... Grabs =
--problems with PKjump as approach:
• bad execution means that you are in trouble, and your opponent gets free hits.
• spacing is slightly weird with different heights
• getting the perfect shorthop height for bair to work every time is difficult
• you go in with a loss of your DJ (MK can abuse this, but if you space well you won't put yourself into a situation where you can be punished like mad... The aerials protect well, and the bolt either ensures that you get a hit with putting pillar up first or provides enough shield stun to halt an extreme range of punishment)
Another thing with PKjump to note is that if you do hit with the bolt and create a pillar, you are well off. Uair will hit fairly frequently and provide perfect placement on the ground for followup, fair hits almost every time, nair gets people just getting out of the pillar, etc. The pillar hit is win for PKjump. If executed perfectly at low percents, you get a near assured 30%.
--basically no risk for hitting with pillar... Maybe marth, but you can airdodge down.
--Buffered SH-Uairs."Eagleye893 said:
** -- I can't think of a specific place for this, but I'll sort it later and probably create some newer categories for this type of stuff to fit in.
-- Yo-Yos:
Have we talked about yoyos yet? Mmm i love me some good yoyo.
First off the basics,
Usmash:
You can usmash OoS if they are in front of you to really screw them up, which can be a decent option. Usmash has so many different uses its almost funny, you can shield projectiles with it, punish rolls with it, hit people approaching you from the air with it, hyphen smash, reverse hyphen smash (oh the fun that comes with that one...), ledge guard (somewhat), punish ledgedroppers by spacing it to go off the ledge, use it near the ledge to pwn people trying to get up (charging is always nice), use it in combos as maybe a quick finish or something to pop them up with (usually an utilt is better for that though), can be used to punish a number of things, and lots of other fun stuff you can do with it
i'm not gonna elaborate on all of these things because they are pretty well known, but i wanna touch on some of them.
hyphen smashing: I absolutely love doing this, its a quick way to punish something hard without trying to pivot fsmash or crazy AT's like that, you dash over there after a laggy move, get them in the charge for a split second, then release and they're popped up ready to be das'd or whatever. Another good thing to do with it is to hit shields with it, it takes em down nicely and if they roll behind you then release and smack them in the face with the ancient dog walker of doom, and again they will usually get popped into the air a short ways, i like to punish this with a pkfire sometimes if they land. All in all hyphen smash is a pretty good way to use usmash, and remember to charge for a bit to get them in the perfect range for them to get it in their faces by the up swing part of it, although c-sticking this isn't a bad idea for a quick punish. Another way to put this into practice is reverse hyphen smashing, you can use this in a number of different ways, *cough mindgames cough* for punishing maybe a roll behind you or maybe someone landing behind you, or you can get some mindgaming in with it (it's so disorienting to see ness turn around and yoyo you from a dash) Oh yeah and don't forget to usmash OoS. (holy crap i just thought of something, can you reverse usmash OoS?? wait nevermind that would just basically be a drop shield turn around usmash... lame.)
punishing ledgedroppers:
space a hyphen smash to start charging right before you reach the ledge, your yoyo should fall down past the ledge and hit anything below it, this wont stop ledge sweet spotting but it will stop people from dropping>dj>whatever, eating up their dj causing them to upB to recover, i suggest possibly using this against Olimar, you can do a quick ledge hog and he's gimped and gone. Havn't tested that, but it should work. Unfortunately ledgedropping is far from olimar's best options, but still. This could also work on characters like zss or ivysaur, but it is a decent option for anyone if they start to get predictable with their ledge getups.
Now to more fun things,
Dsmash:
Ah the down smash, imo an underused trait that ness has access to. Some good options with this are quite obvious: punishing things behind you (rolls, people landing, etc.), dropping your shield and using this isn't a bad option for someone approaching from behind after using a projectile or whatever, or just using it as a quick attack behind you for whatever, Dsmash is a good move to use.
Not entirely sure how well this would work but in my head it seems really awesome, You pivot (i can't remember the term for this...) and then you dsmash right after it, so its like a hyphen smash except with a dsmash and therefore no upward arc over ness's head, just imagine ness running then turning around straight to a dsmash the direction he was originally running towards, hitting the opponent with the yoyo hit behind ness... not entirely sure how this could be used but its cool so who cares haha xD
YoYo Shielding:
Ness's yoyo can block many projectiles, anyways, you all know about this and i don't really feel like taking the time i just did with everything else, (plus it really isn't my specialty
That's about all i got for yoyo's, i'm sure there's a lot i didn't mention.
--Overall
My thoughts:Anyone gonna do a wall of text any time soon? i will but first i gotta test it (as well as be able to do it ><) aerials after pk jumping.... mmmmmm....
Ok so i havn't tested this at all, but it would be fricken shweet if you can do it (i havn't tested because i can't do pk jump
THIS WOULD BE EPIC, especially with an uair for an unexpected kill, or maybe just a different way to follow up your pkjump approach. If someone could test this then that would be great.
Uses (if it works)
-switch up your game a bit so you aren't always doing the same thing
-like a das only the first aerial is a pkjump, so you can put a fair or something in and the knockback hit won't hit, but the first part will, leading to some combos maybe.
-good for setting up things
-unexpected kill with an uair
-???
Anyway, just wanted to throw it out there, please someone test this, i can't pk jump to save my life >.<
I'm bored so i'll add some more:
Defensive play: (dunno too much about this but i'll list what i do)
-Turnaround Pkfire is nice to use sometimes, and since it can be used anywhere out of a dash it can throw opponents off guard. To perform, use pk fire one way then immediately slam the control stick the other direction. Good move imo but not always the best.
-SH or FH aerial OoS is another good thing to use when under pressure, for the defensive player if they are in front of you I'd say to do a retreating sh fair, you'll space out okay for you to maybe land and catch em with a pk fire in their face or something, or maybe start running then turnaround pk fire or whatever.
-PKT, i don't really know the difference of this and aggressive play pkt, maybe land cancel the head more if you see the opponent dodging it or something.
-Spaced fair/retreating fair, a great way to keep them back and deal some damage. If they're on you, pull one of these out of your magician's hat and leave the bunny for later.
I think the most important thing for defensive play is to never leave yourself open, so use safe moves and keep your distance.
Edit again: since i don't feel like double posting, i figured out another good defensive technique, retreat into an RAR then fair. it covers you decently, and is fun to do
**LATER
