Negative frames on D-smash.

[I feel asleep]

Me and B-stick(one of the best marth players in AZ) were playing some friendlies.

we played a bunch of matches, then after a while, he countered one of my D-smashes, however, i was able to shield before the counter hit me. it got me thinking.

so we tested it out for a bit, and it turns out, if Marth or Ike counter D-smash, you can shield/shieldgrab them BEFORE they are able to move due to the counter animation.

I messed around in slo-mo a bit(since i don't have AR or any way to see hitboxes) and it turns out, Shielding cancels the D-smash -just- before what looks to be the hitbox fades. at least in looks and feel.

it also seems that shielding is able to be done quicker if the D-smash actually connects.

Now, i am throwing this out there as a possibility, not a definitive thing since i don't have the ability to get frame data.

 

[Snakeee]

Well that's interesting at the least, and good to know if Marth/Ike/Lucario? counter my D smash. Good find.

 

[Pi]

Maybe this is what they refer to as 'IASA' frames ;o?

 

[BANSHI]

very nice find, im going to explore this

 

[I feel asleep]

Maybe this is what they refer to as 'IASA' frames ;o?

call it what you will, IASA would be the correct terminology for this, due to it being smash and all. however, i guess some of my friends "2d terminology" got picked up in my typing. >_>

 

[Tristan_win]

Good stuff man

Thank for the info it should be very useful against my friends Marth and all the other gay(too good) Marth users I fight.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

ok, i have friend who is good with marth and the counter(made me cry when he did an aerial counter on DDDs side smash), this will be handy, thanks

 

[Doval]

Many moves have a couple of IASA frames at the end of the animation, especially when the animation continues much longer than the attack itself, and the extra animations are mostly superfluous. It's nothing special. By the way, if we're going to use 2D fighter terminology, this would be "positive frames." Negative frames imply that the foe recovered before you did, which means you're the one at a disadvantage.

The fact that you can shield before their counter goes off is far more relevant/interesting. Very nice find. The reason she ends up at an advantage (and the reason it looks like you can cancel it quicker if it hits - by the way, you don't) is because the D-smash itself isn't an attack. It's a projectile (it can be absorbed by PSI Magnet.) The person shielding or countering the D-smash gets hit lag, but Samus doesn't. Under normal circumstances (hitting with other attacks) both characters would receive equal hit lag, and they'd cancel out.

EDIT: Playing around a bit against shielding characters right now. You can jab before the shieldgrabber's grab fully comes out. So the D-smash is safe even if shielded.

 

[ph00tbag]

EDIT: Playing around a bit against shielding characters right now. You can jab before the shieldgrabber's grab fully comes out. So the D-smash is safe even if shielded.

Looks like we've got a **** good shield pressure move now.

 

[Ørion]

Nice find , my bro uses Ike, i should start abusing this.

 

[Garde]

Doval, I'm curious as to who you were testing the shield grabbing with because not all grabs are the same speed.

 

[Doval]

Doval, I'm curious as to who you were testing the shield grabbing with because not all grabs are the same speed.

Marth, Dedede and Mario. Not all grabs are the same speed, but at least in Melee they were all roughly the same speed (6-7 frames) except for tether grabs which were slower.

Since everyone seems so interested in the shielding aspect, I'll post what I found. First off, the defending character recovers from block stun slightly before ZS Samus recovers from the D-Smash. Even so, she recovers fast enough to interrupt seemingly all grabs with her jab. Unfortunately, since the foe recovers before Samus, he can roll away before your jab hits them once they catch on to the fact that shieldgrabbing's not going to work.

Marth and Meta Knight's Up-Bs are also too fast and will hit you if you try to jab them after the D-smash, but they're still slow enough to Perfect Shield them just in the nick of time if you don't jab. Mario's Up-B, however, comes out so quick that you don't even get a chance to shield it.

Also note that even if the foe doesn't have an Up-B that'll beat your jab, if he's smart he can choose to keep shielding and shieldgrab you during the AAA combo. On the other hand, if you think he's going to keep shielding and try to grab after the jab, you could not jab and roll instead. In addition, since the Down B has invincibility starting from Frame 1, you could use it anywhere a jab would be succesful.

In an attempt to make the above statements more coherent and organized, here's two rough speed/success charts for the mix-ups that can occur after someone blocks your D-Smash. Options to the left will beat options to the right. Actions without a subject are implied to be performed by the ZS Samus player.
1) Mario's Up-B > Shielding > Marth/Meta Knight's Up-B
2) Foe Rolls > Jabbing > Foe's Shieldgrab > Rolling > Foe's tether grab (jabbing beats this) OR Foe keeps shielding, waits for your jab, and shield grabs (tether grabs are too slow for this)

How successful you are or how safely you can pull off any of these options depends on how much your opponent knows. A Mario can punish the D-smash 100% of the time simply by using Up-B out of the shield, but if he doesn't know that, it doesn't do him much good. Likewise, foes can pretty much always roll before you jab, but if they don't know that, then you can still pressure with jabs. And even if they know that, you could mix it up and try to chase his roll.

 

[Garde]

Have you tried Perfect/Power Shielding the d-smash and then attempting a jab against Zamus?

Dropping shields (even normal shielding, not just Perfect Shields) after single hit attacks seems to be pretty effective in punishing people. Snake is quite good at it, possibly the best.

I'm just trying to throw ideas out there to test. I know that I often drop my shield after the last hit of a somewhat laggy attack and get tilts, jabs, and side+Bs against some of my opponents before they can do anything. Zamus' d-smash recovers fairly fast which is why I'm curious as to whether this will work against it or not.

I wish there were more frame data available (for all characters)...

 

[Kewkky]

Wow, niiiiiice! So, Zamus's D-smash is looking very pretty this time around if all of this could be incorporated into competitive gameplay. Fail the attack, you gonna get countered/shield grabbed? Jab out of it, Zamus is fast enough!

Man, gotta practice these ASAP.

 

[Doval]

Have you tried Perfect/Power Shielding the d-smash and then attempting a jab against Zamus?

Most characters have a guaranteed punish if they jab, unless their jab is slower than the standard 2-3 frame jab (e.g. Dedede, Bowser, to a lesser extenct Marth - he'll hit up close but won't make it in time from a distance.) Perfect Shield doesn't really reduce stun, but it does allow you to attack straight out of the shield dropping animation without having to wait for it to finish. Without the shield drop lag, most jabs are quick enough to hit Samus before she recovers.

Dropping shields (even normal shielding, not just Perfect Shields) after single hit attacks seems to be pretty effective in punishing people. Snake is quite good at it, possibly the best.

I'm just trying to throw ideas out there to test. I know that I often drop my shield after the last hit of a somewhat laggy attack and get tilts, jabs, and side+Bs against some of my opponents before they can do anything. Zamus' d-smash recovers fairly fast which is why I'm curious as to whether this will work against it or not.

You're correct, it IS effective. Nevertheless, even using a jab out of the shield is (slightly) slower than grabbing - even for Snake (I don't know if he's any better at it than the rest, but since you brought him up...) unless the character has a tether grab (e.g. ZS Samus), since those are really slow. Basically, a jab from ZS Samus will definitely come out faster than any offensive action the opponent can do except for certain Up B's.

 

[Garde]

Thanks for clearing that up, Doval. You answered my question perfectly.

The thing about Snake's jab from his shield is that it has very long reach (it reaches beyond his fists), it comes out fast (like most jabs it's active on either frame 2 or 3), and the third hit has good KO potential (like 130% which is amazing for any jab and better than some characters' best KO moves), so he's better at punishing people directly out of his shield than other characters. But I digress...

 

[I feel asleep]

Doval, thanks for your time in testing some of this stuff out.
that is EXACTLY what i wanted by posting this thread.

^_^