Need help on the ZSS vs Speed characters.

[Negi Kun1]

Now heres the thing, I have a decent ZSS and I know my matchups pretty well enough to win them, except when it comes to any form of speedy characters, and I mean running speed.

MK and Marth are my worst fights in the world, however I still have trouble with Sonic/Fox and whoever else is fast, however, MK and Marth are the big ones for me. The reason being because I find spacing to be very difficult against them and me (being a defensive type player), have trouble with this. I know that spacing isn't helping me, but I don't know how to change it up to effectively win the fight.

Marth always seems to close the gap on me so fast, and with his aerials being disjointed and his sword being able to stop my paralyzer, I just can't seem to find anything that works. Seems to smack me mid string occasionally.

MK is almost the same way, except with addition to what I said about Marth, MK is even faster and has that tornado (which I have no idea how to deal with). Also can't find anything that works. He also smacks me in the middle of my strings.

My fighting style as I mentioned above is pretty defensive, I keep them at bay with lasers and forward b, with them being pretty well spaced, charging in for the string whenever I land a laser or a Dsmash. I know all her known chains and infinites and glide tossing and such.

I've read the matchup thread on these two but its not helping me in retrospect to how I fight and thats what I need.

So what I am looking for is a little advice as to how to deal with speedy characters in general, what to change from my general spacing strategy to defeat them, and any matchup info is also welcome.

Also, if someone could tell me how to effectively use armor as well, I'm not so great with it.

 

[noradseven]

I bet you think being defensive is using the whip alot, don't you.

Being defensive is blocking/sidestepping, alot, and just sometimes jumping but with no attack just to bait them.

It would be easier with videos but lets do over something quick.
Moves that beat whornado in order of ease of use.
Block-> over B when over.
back air
down B,B
grab
down Smash
u-smash
down air
u-air(at certain angles)
u-B (lol)

Also running away over Bs make it extremely hard for you to be approached.
Learn the 1-2 punch on the over B aka hitting the first smack of the over B, can be helpful against projectiles and clashing some attacks.

Use your aerials more fast characters can close the gap quicker but your moves are really fast and can give them a surprise.

If they just keep running straight at you grab them.

Be patient watch you opponent and side step/block, until they are vulnerable, or you are safe from being punished from over B.

It would be nice to see a video to more accurately see how they play, like some MK's are defensive whores until they connect (grrrr), others are silly and just rush down going top tier lolol. Like most marths play off of his pressure and tips. I play marth off of cancels, both dash and land cancels, to mix up, heh not much beats repeatedly forward dash canceling into forward dash, for either a back dash mixup into f-smash tipper, or into dash braking grab, or a jump either forwards or backwards with aerial for reset. (woah this proably is going to be very confusing ask if you need clarification on anything.) I bet other people would do this if they weren't so afraid of tripping.

edit: I hate fighting fox, see down smash loop for revenge.

 

[Negi Kun1]

Yeah I did kinda think of the overuse of my whipping as defensive, however I do tend to shield alot. Thanks for the info on the tornado, its nice to know.

Also more on the approaching Marth and MK issue, they always seem to cancel out my lasers so I tend to stop shooting them and using SH forward b to space, however, they always seem to jump over it and smack me in the face with an aerial. I seem to do good against Marth when it comes to stages like Norfair, only because I don't have to worry about spacing so much since I can almost just stick with aerials there. Never fought MK there, although I don't think it would help me much.

It seems hardest for me when we have a decent sized area of battle without elevation (FD, SV, YI, BF kinda). I just don't know what to do in the situation of them approaching me through the air. Usually when I try to intercept I eat an aerial but if I try to shield and counter, they're too far.

 

[noradseven]

Yeah I did kinda think of the overuse of my whipping as defensive, however I do tend to shield alot. Thanks for the info on the tornado, its nice to know.

Also more on the approaching Marth and MK issue, they always seem to cancel out my lasers so I tend to stop shooting them and using SH forward b to space, however, they always seem to jump over it and smack me in the face with an aerial. I seem to do good against Marth when it comes to stages like Norfair, only because I don't have to worry about spacing so much since I can almost just stick with aerials there. Never fought MK there, although I don't think it would help me much.

It seems hardest for me when we have a decent sized area of battle without elevation (FD, SV, YI, BF kinda). I just don't know what to do in the situation of them approaching me through the air. Usually when I try to intercept I eat an aerial but if I try to shield and counter, they're too far.

Did you just say move forward and do over-B, O_O, I'm not sure about the other players but your going to get punished for that. Maybe you mean standing still or moving backwards.
Some people don't understand the point of the over B and down smash while its great if you hit, they are primary used as counters for when someone does something dumb, and for fear, whiffing 10 over B's in a row is perfectly fine as long as you stop the opponent from approaching, they may get frustrated.

Have you played Castlevania, well you know how the best way to attack with the whip was while moving backwards its kinda the same way here.

You can really mess up marth on rainbow cruise, also MK's good stages are your good stages, so counter picking isn't too much of an option though halberd seems to sorta work.

Its sounds to me like you are actually reasonably aggressive, I thought I was an aggressive player until I fought other players and just found out my friends are just crazy defensive turtles even the MK.

Try short hoping straight like once or twice and throwing over B's, and sometimes just jumping and not doing anything, leaves you free to defend and counter what they are doing with some nice aerials.


In my opinion blaster is either her worst or second worst move, and is very rarely applicable. Hmm maybe PM tommorow and I can play online and show you stuff maybe, stupid college.

 

[Negi Kun1]

Oh, I didn't mean I jumped forward and do forward b, I jump back and do them. Although when I get stuck at the edge, I tend to try and resort to shielding one of there moves and hitting with an uptilt/down tilt. I occasionally do that anyway.

I think I may be reasonably aggressive, but mostly when they're airborne.
Yeah I suppose we could play tomorrow so you could see my playing style, although if its mirrors I might get owned, I'm bad at those.

 

[noradseven]

Oh, I didn't mean I jumped forward and do forward b, I jump back and do them. Although when I get stuck at the edge, I tend to try and resort to shielding one of there moves and hitting with an uptilt/down tilt. I occasionally do that anyway.

I think I may be reasonably aggressive, but mostly when they're airborne.
Yeah I suppose we could play tomorrow so you could see my playing style, although if its mirrors I might get owned, I'm bad at those.

just call me up on AIM its the same name I have here.

 

[Nefarious B]

Jab OOS helps a lot if they're not spacing perfectly.

 

[Negi Kun1]

Thanks, I'll remember that, I just gotta remember to jab sometimes, I hardly do so.

All right, I'll hit you up on AIM when I feel like brawling for some matches, it'd be nice to see some other ZSS fighting styles. It'd actually be nice to play multiple ZSS dittos with multiple ZSS players, as to get a feel of how differently ZSS can be played.

 

[noradseven]

Jab OOS helps a lot if they're not spacing perfectly.

even more so on aireal approaches when the oppenent is on the ground it can still be risky.

 

[Negi Kun1]

I didn't know jab was so important, I always just tried for tilts out of shield but I suppose on fast people I should throw out a jab because of its speed.

I think I can handle MK now, I seemed to do well against the ones I faced today, now all thats left is my Marth matchup.

 

[Hence]

Jab OOS helps a lot if they're not spacing perfectly.

Holding A > Spindash Spammy Sonics.

 

[sasook]

Holding A > Spindash Spammy Sonics.

Meh, most good Sonics shield cancel their spins, and all this other fancy stuff I can hardly comprehend. lol

 

[TheRockSays]

I have a couple of tips against MK.
1-Expect whorenados you might want to keep your opponent boxed in on one side of the map as soon as you see signs of u pressuring he will use the tornado then just start running away from it blocking does not help at all.
2-There has been occasional times i have knocked of a MK off the tornado with side b while short jumping backwards.(Don't try your luck i still go with #1.)
3-The best stage to play against MK is Lylat i haven't seen many whorenados there.
4-Don't spam side b for god sakes is a kill move.
5-Trust your 1-2 jab,down tilt and front tilt, your down smash.
6-Flip kick is your secret weapon don't abuse it, just use it wisely.