nair... [b]and[/b] bair platform cancel?

[j3ly]

Note - it is definatly not edge canceling because it can be l-canceled.
Setup - you're on a platform, so is your opponent, on the floor or standing.

Its a shame that this only works from low %'s because it can only be performed after a dash attack. Dash attack at your opponent, you'll notice that when mario runs out of platform to do his sliding attack the animation keeps going but he looses all momentum.

Dash attack at your opponent. Make sure you are holding back, and mashing A as hard as you can just before the dash attack is over, but not too soon because you will perform a punch punch kick combo if you do. Provided that the opponent is within bair hitbox range, and you did it right, the force of the collision will hit the opponent away a little, and put Mario back above the platform ready for l-canceling.

Doc cannot perform this.
I can only assume this at applies to many characters (not marth i just tried it), i will be testing this and listing here later on.

watch this first before reading, otherwise this wont make any sense
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORiX3B9aiaE

i think the time should have saved, but if not, 1.38 - right at the end, 2nd last clip.
Yo, haven't been playing consistently recently so i decided to knock marth around on YS for for a bit

I saw that video, Phanna phlunder, or watever and at the end he does platform cancels ( not to be confused with edge cancels). I knew falco and fox could do it, but not mario. Anyway, i did a Mario bair cancel, on the lower right platform on YS. My thoughts on this - it was at the edge of the platform, but it couldent have been an edge cancel cause i landed back onto the platform with no lagg, just where i started. i know this can be done with edge canceling too... please trust me

I instantly went into Vs mode, set a filthy handicap and tried to replicate the result.. this resulted in utter failiure. Infact i tried to do it with nair, for about 20 minutes and succeeded once. Fox, falcos and luigis are all easy, but marios one is impossibly hard.

the bair note is important, but what is more important is that everybody learns how to do the nair one. it is however, on a ridiculous level of difficulty. Id say about 3 times harder than multishining. Even in 1/4 speed training mode, it seems impossible. it looks as if you have 1 frame, to move the control stick back to the middle , without doing a dair( this is unbelievably annoying... yay for muscle memory) and press A.

there has to be a method, something, i also think that this is an awesome awesome technique. What do normally follow up with (instead of a grab) after a jab on a platform? yeah, PD uair. Imagine, Jab -> nair, but you have no lag, and dont appear to move. it would give mario an easier time killing people, something he needs help with dramatically. also a nair with no lag ( or DI) send the lighter'ish characters almost horizontally, ready for another nair, and as far as i can see any DI is helpful to it lol

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Errr... you do have lag, just like landing from any aerial.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

What elven said.

i still fel that jab grab -> would be easier/jsut as effective

 

[j3ly]

check the vid, hardly any lag atall, and pretty much no startup

regardless, i thought i would tell people. plus what if a grab wont kill them, bleeugh u guys arnt idiots, im sure u can think of situations where a platform cancelled nair would be the best possible option.

 

[Moooose]

yea it does have its uses, it's just mad hard to do
this vid pretty much shows its uses, except it's luigi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqnRG5AQcL8

 

[j3ly]

yeh i saw that, its actually pretty easy with luigi, just a little harder than falcos

but like, everything seems mad hard at first, its the difficulty that stops people learning how to do it

it is indeed mad hard, but after some hard work it will be memorized, done, useful - just as if you had never made the effort in the first place

the bair interests me more though, i really really wish i had that recorded!

if you are the same moose im thinking of, i like your falco

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Look at Link's uair in the video. There's definite lag, even L-cancelled, and startup time is the same as it always is.

 

[Moooose]

yeh i saw that, its actually pretty easy with luigi, just a little harder than falcos

but like, everything seems mad hard at first, its the difficulty that stops people learning how to do it

it is indeed mad hard, but after some hard work it will be memorized, done, useful - just as if you had never made the effort in the first place

the bair interests me more though, i really really wish i had that recorded!

if you are the same moose im thinking of, i like your falco

thanks =D
also at elven, you can l-cancel those uairs in addition to the platform cancel i think

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's not "in addition" to anything. The platform doesn't change start up or cool down time, only makes it so that you don't have to jump.

Frankly, I don't think it's worth the extra effort.

 

[X1-12]

i'm pretty sure an average SHFFL is like 30 frames? and platform cancelling is like just like 2+ whatever the L-Cancelled landing lag is , probably 3-10 frames

 

[elvenarrow3000]

That's not true. The nair's hit box isn't even out on frame two.

I just don't see why you wouldn't jab to dsmash instead. Higher power, easier to execute and most likely faster in most situations.

 

[onedayafter7]

Dsmash is more punishable.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

If you're whiffing jab to dsmash, you've got some serious issues. If they're... I don't know, crouch cancel shielding it or something, the dsmash will most likely push them off of the platform and you'll be pretty much safe.

 

[j3ly]

Frankly, I don't think it's worth the extra effort.

Theres a reason i got better than people playing much, much longer than me in a few months, while maining Mario
^^


If you seriously cannot think of uses, you are a bad player, or an uncreative one. I know your not going to take that too well but i don't care anymore - all ive seen from you on these boards is you arguing, or talking to people in a tone that would be very rude/condescending IRL im not particularily directing this towards you, but the majority of people that talk like that, i find out, from photos, end up to be the spotty fat guys. The cool ones are the ones who crack jokes, or are generally nice to otheres

under YS platform on marth at 0%
uthrow -> x2 rising uair -> ....? PD uair? jab Dsmash? Patform canceled nair, BELIEVE me, that is one of my favorite setups, nair is the BEST option, apart from grab. But if they DI away from the edge after you grab them, oh hell, you just lost a chance to almost definatly finish him, all because he didn't DI the first throw, and was DIing consistency afterwards (cant DI those uairs), and you decided to grab again

People like you who contribute little, yet still find it within them to talk down to others make me SICK.

Gdammit. Ill find some **** uses (after i get it down that is, lol), be sure of that. There are situations where it is the best option. Its a definite.



Nairs hitbox comes out on frame 3 . Its under a thread i made called quickest interupter, a thread has come in useful on several occasions, seeing as flicking through maelstroms guide takes like 5 mins. Better than cunning kitsunes guide tho, but i dont think that has the frames in it... just 'fast' 'lighting' 'kinda slow'

 

[j3ly]

woo my first internet argument! lets see how this pans out

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wow, holy crap you get upset easily.

Well, for one, I don't mean to come off condescending. I try to be as calm and reasonable as possible, so if I sound arrogant, sorry.

To be fair, you specifically said that the platform cancelled nair would be used as a follow up after a jab, which is impractical because a) It's really hard to do, especially when you need it fast, like after the jab and b) Doesn't really do anything that the dsmash doesn't. It's one frame faster in start up at most, has lower knockback and most likely doesn't combo into anything.

I'd assume it has lower vertical range, making it less useful at higher percentages, as well.

In your situation (erm, best as I can discern it from your... rather irate words), I don't think you'd get punished by the Marth. Marth's fairly slidy and a dsmash would most likely knock him off of the platform, so there wouldn't be a follow up grab. In any case, meeting Marth on an even level when you could be under him seems like a bad idea in general.

I never said that platform canceling was useless, just that it's probably not useful in this situation.

And for the record, I'm six feet tall and I weigh one-fifty. You can call that fat, if you like =P But you should really lay off the ad hominem attacks, for courtesy and professionalism.

 

[Airwalkerr]

To be fair, you specifically said that the platform cancelled nair would be used as a follow up after a jab, which is impractical because a) It's really hard to do, especially when you need it fast, like after the jab and b) Doesn't really do anything that the dsmash doesn't. It's one frame faster in start up at most, has lower knockback and most likely doesn't combo into anything.

Nair comes out in 3 frames, and can l-cancel immediately, making it around a 5 frame attack. This combo's easily into a SH attack at low %'s, a grab, a smash, pretty much every move mario has, making it similiar to a Falco shine-->bair, in the sense that with fast enough sped you can beat the knockback, ya dig? It is ridiculously hard, however, and more time than not you'll nair through the platform onto the ground below. Not necessarily a bad thing haha, especially fighting Marth. Avoiding ending lag alone is good enough to make it worthwhile, albeit situational.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Three frame start up plus one frame for the platform drop means four frame start up. Also, you're not autocancelling the nair, so it's going to be seven frames cool down, assuming the attack is only out for one frame.

Plus the situation proposed was that it would help with kills, not to combo.

 

[Airwalkerr]

I understand that, then. It would be rather foolish to try to kill with the technique, as its failure rate is ridiculously high. Shield pressure, mindgames and unorthadox combos are the extent I can see of this technique. Mario's nair is not a 7 frame l-cancel, but it would be around 7 frames altogether. Which is still crazy fast for all aerial techniques, making it BETTER than a DJC. Well, frame wise. I'd say it is a good technique, and if some amazing Mario player was a complete robot with picture perfect timing, it could definatedly change our metagame. Doing it consistently, however, just isn't humanly possible.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

My bad. It's longer than eight.

N-Air

Total: 45
Hit: 3-32
Auto cancel: <2 36>
Landlag: 16
Lcanceled: 8

Total would be twelve frames or more.

 

[Moooose]

It's not "in addition" to anything. The platform doesn't change start up or cool down time, only makes it so that you don't have to jump.

Frankly, I don't think it's worth the extra effort.

"in addition" meaning the platform cancel makes the jump unecessary like you said, so the aerial comes out quicker and ends quicker. i don't understand why some people say certain tactic are never useful, there's always some situation in which any tactic can be applied. mixups are always a good thing.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't see it coming out faster or ending faster in any usable way. Sure, if you could do this on the ground, it'd be good, but being on a platform? That's a different story.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Hate to break it to you, but 12 frames is ridiculously fast. Yes, I ~can~ react to 6 frame moves sometimes, but seriously, platform drop nairs do have a purpose in pressure/mix-ups. You can only react to things quickly if you anticipate them. A platform cancel nair adds one more layer to your mixups.

Its difficulty shouldn't be a factor. In this game, having the right response to those 1/100 situations can be the difference between 9th and 1st place.

My question is:

Can Doc do this shiz?

More importantly, if the bair actually does work

Can Doc do it, too?

Cuz pc bairs sound too good to be true, no matter how hard they are.

As for killing with it, the way you would "kill" is by doing the uthrow uairx2 thing, then, when the nair hits them, because they're DIing away and are being hit by the strongest possible version of it, they're sent pretty far offstage. If they've burned their jumps, they're prolly dead. If not, you just set up a nice edgeguarding situation.

This game isn't solely about guaranteed damage/kills. It's about forcing the worst possible situations as often as possible.

j3ly, I have a tshirt with the pic from yo avatar. Mario's meant to be played that way, too. Mmhmm.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

If you're connecting with two uairs after the uthrow, they're probably not going to go anywhere even after a strong nair. Also, since you'll be on a platform with them, they're going to expect an attack, so they'll probably shield.

It's not as simple as just twelve frames, either. If you hit their shield, the hitlag extends the duration of the attack. Plus, there's the aforementioned fact that they're going to expect an attack. Twelve frames is good, but it's not the shine.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I think he was saying that after uthrow rising uair*2, there's not really anything you can follow up with.

They should be above you, negating the whole "shield" thing.

Also, you're saying the nair is a 12 frame attack. It isn't. It's a 3 frame attack with 12 frames of cooldown. You'll hit the very bottom of their shield, so that should minimize the hitlag anyway (assuming they're blocking it).

If they're expecting an attack, grab. If they're expecting a grab, attack. Simple Yomi layers. Most players will be ready for dsmash/fsmash/jab>something on their shield, so they're looking for those. Doing a pc nair, while far from godly, will throw off their timing just enough to avoid punishment, and leaves them in range of jab, dsmash, dair shenanigans (risky), cape (ewww, I hate Mario's), or buffered roll/jump retreat funsies.

Nothing is the shine, except for the shine. Even then, the shine loses to Fox's lasers if you're point blank and have a stock lead. No other move does that except for psi magnet. Using "It's not the shine" to discourage something is just silly.

Dunno why you'd discourage creativity.

Unless it's ******** creativity, like Drk.Peach. "IMMA FIND A USE FOR EVERY MOVE THAT SHE HAS, AND USE THEM ALL EQUALLY! PEACH BOMBER R GREAT MOVE! THEN WE CAN HOLD HANDS AND SING! THEN I'M GONNA THROW A HISSY FIT FOR SOMETHING SOMEONE SAID ON THE INTERNET!"

But, I digress. I'm just hatin' now.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I think there's plenty that you can follow up with. But whatever.

Hitting low on their shield doesn't lower hitlag.

And no, it's twelveish frames total. Winds down in eight frames.

I mean, I guess it can be very situationally more useful, but my problem with the whole thing is that you get rewarded very very little for how much more effort you have to put in, and if you mess up, you lose that opportunity.

 

[onedayafter7]

This is a stupid argument. Keep your frame opinions to yourselves. It really doesn't matter that much. The only. only. only. important thing is if it works. Elven. you obviously won't be using this and so it won't work for you. Great for you. But if jelly or airwalker or someone gets it down and can integrate it into their combos and playstyle that would be great too. Congratulations
Some mario players use dair alot and ive seen some marios that don't use it at all. This is the same thing. Different players use different moves in different situations for different effects. The PC nair will be usefull for some and not for others. plain and simple. Stop arguing about its significance. My goodness.

 

[Airwalkerr]

One thing some don't understand is that PC's do NOT work if you are not near a shield or an opponent. It has to connect, because the hit lag is what gives you that tiny boost, keeping you on the platform. To the topic at hand, it doesn't apply to Doc. For whatever reason, his nair just goes under the platform. At least from what I've tested. And I cannot, for the life of me, work it with bair. J3ly, you way have ledge cancelled it and DI's back onto the platform really quick. I pulled off 2 conesucutive Nair PC's in a friendly today, too!!! I was sooooo stoked, first one was shielded, then in a "wtf" moment, my friend dropped his shield and I hit him with another. And then got d-smashed. ****ing Peach. just know that it is definatedly useful.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

This is a stupid argument. Keep your frame opinions too yourselves. It really doesn't matter that much. The only. only. only. important thing is if it works. Elven. you obviously won't be using this and so it won't work for you. Great for you. But if jelly or airwalker or someone gets it down and can integrate it into their combos and playstyle that would be great too. Congratulations
Some mario players use dair alot and ive seen some marios that don't use it at all. This is the same thing. Different players use different moves in different situations for different effects. The PC nair will be usefull for some and not for others. plain and simple. Stop arguing about its significance. My goodness.

Tyty, great post.

Frame data is shady in this game.

One thing some don't understand is that PC's do NOT work if you are not near a shield or an opponent. It has to connect, because the hit lag is what gives you that tiny boost, keeping you on the platform. To the topic at hand, it doesn't apply to Doc. For whatever reason, his nair just goes under the platform. At least from what I've tested. And I cannot, for the life of me, work it with bair. J3ly, you way have ledge cancelled it and DI's back onto the platform really quick. I pulled off 2 conesucutive Nair PC's in a friendly today, too!!! I was sooooo stoked, first one was shielded, then in a "wtf" moment, my friend dropped his shield and I hit him with another. And then got d-smashed. ****ing Peach. just know that it is definatedly useful.

Stupid Doc. =(

Heyyyyyyy

Can we SDI when we're hitting people? I know it seems like a dumb idea, but I'm just thinkin'. I know CF players have to DI mid-hop for some nair stuff to work, but I think that's just momentum stuff.

Cuz like... if you can SDI while hitting someone, you could try nair pc SDI 696969 to make it easier, or something? You'd probably just end up jumping, tho.

Also, who thinks it is fun to SDI Falcon's nair to save yo' ***? I first started doing it with Peach, but it's waaaaaaaaay easier with Doc/Mario.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

No, you can't smash DI your own hits.

 

[KHON™]

how exactly do you do platform cancel a neutral air like press down and up fast while on the platform?

i cant get it down, any help would be nice.

 

[KHON™]

with mario or luigi either one.

 

[Nevorno]

You drop through the platform and press A fast.
You have to be within the hitbox of another character in order for it to work.

 

[j3ly]

the timing is pure filth though, after MUCH (and i mean much) practice my consistency with it is still only at 25%. But thats better than nothing

i was practicing on a cpu, i PC'd a uair, then a bair in a combo, one after another on each side of a platform. Seeing as i first found this by doing a PC'd bair by accident (was also at the very teeter edge of a platform) it is safe to say that you cannot PC bair, (or uair for that matter) but im still pretty **** sure the 3 attacks weren't edge cancels. Like some crazy platform-drop-cancel or some bs

 

[KHON™]

sick i can do it with mario easier than luigi haha

 

[j3ly]

awesome, i have the bair platform cancel down.
Doc definatly, definatly cannot perform this im afraid

There is a specific method to it, and im pretty sure the same thing can be applied to uair but its alot trickier. But you guys are gonna have to wait for a video to find out how , if my parents go out tonight so i can bake up then ill have it up by tonight in all probability.

oh yeah and after reading air walkers post, its not edge canceled, just like nair - you hit your opponent and get boosted a tiny bit back onto the platform. Leads into grabs really well, Marth low %'s and FF'ers mediums low %'s. Shame that you cant get a weak one, but since marios bair is practically, if not a sex kick theres just no way.

In other news, use reverse bair (so running towards them and backwards bair) at really high percents for good setups.
If you do it backwards almost always the weak hit, which is really good for comboing at high %'s. Ive been playing around with weak bair - uair opp onto a platform, punish missed tech with uair double jump and uair them again. Works swell around 60-80% on marth, want to be hitting uair with the very middle top tip so u get strong hits at a good angle to follow up.
You don't have to get them onto a platform and for them to miss their tech, but to get the right angle, which is directly below them at a certain % your only chance is to combo them until their in that position or uair them onto the platform. Hell, dtilt even works for this because if they miss the tech, your ending lag doesnt matter too much, especially seeing as dtilt hitbox comes out fast at frame 7
Think falcon double uairing you off a platform on YS to your death, just not as good.

aite screw it i just realized how ridiculously long making a video is so ill write here and edit the op.


Note - it is definatly not edge canceling because it can be l-canceled.
Setup - you're on a platform, so is your opponent, on the floor or standing.

Its a shame that this only works from low %'s because it can only be performed after a dash attack. Dash attack at your opponent, you'll notice that when mario runs out of platform to do his sliding attack the animation keeps going but he looses all momentum.

Dash attack at your opponent. Make sure you are holding back, and mashing A as hard as you can just before the dash attack is over, but not too soon because you will perform a punch punch kick combo if you do. Provided that the opponent is within bair hitbox range, and you did it right, the force of the collision will hit the opponent away a little, and put Mario back above the platform ready for l-canceling.

Doc cannot perform this.
I can only assume this at applies to many characters (not marth i just tried it), i will be testing this and listing here later on.

You could definatly bait with this, and the interesting thing is that you get options after the running attack. This can be performed with uair, probably nair too but good luck hitting it on anything other than a metal opponent. There is a weird property, you can turn around after the dash attack just after falling and do a fair or uair.

Ill write more later maybe

 

[Airwalkerr]

awesome, i have the bair platform cancel down.
Doc definatly, definatly cannot perform this im afraid


Its a shame that this only works from low %'s because it can only be performed after a dash attack. Dash attack at your opponent, you'll notice that when mario runs out of platform to do his sliding attack the animation keeps going but he looses all momentum.

Dash attack at your opponent. Make sure you are holding back, and mashing A as hard as you can just before the dash attack is over, but not too soon because you will perform a punch punch kick combo if you do. Provided that the opponent is within bair hitbox range, and you did it right, the force of the collision will hit the opponent away a little, and put Mario back above the platform ready for l-canceling.


Ill write more later maybe

That makes a lot more sense than the first post. It also explains why I couldn't do it. Dash attack to edge of ledge, go into falling animation, bair/uair opponent which pops you back onto the stage. Its almost like a reverse edge cancel, in the sense that instead of putting out an aerial and falling off the ledge to cancel the lag, you fall off the ledge and pop yourself back on with the hitstun your own attack gives. This is a wicked technique, I'm proud of the mario boards for once.

 

[j3ly]

ty airwalker

i slept on it and have a couple more things to say on it

if u want practice, mario v marth yoshis story, Handicap = 1 for mario 9 for marth, damage ratio 0.5. you can keep doing it over and over from 0% way upto like 400% or somethin stupid

the dash attack is 100% not necessary, rather its the only easy way to get into the position. its a very easy tech though, you can get a uair from edge canceling - this i know for sure so just be on the lookout for chances when they come up

if your quick enough you can edge cancel it with no opponent nearby, this however is really hard